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This is a topic mainly aimed at European readers (including, I hope, reviewers), but I'm sure many others will have an opinion.

 

It's been on my "to ask about" list for some time, but the cache discussed in this thread has brought it up to the top of that list.

 

What happened is that a cache was placed in France, with a listing written entirely in German. No French version, no English version.

 

Now, in this part of France, many people do understand quite a bit of German, but many don't. And the description is long and complicated, and needs to be read with a lot of precision. (It's a 5/5 letterbox hybrid, night-only cache, with no GPS usage required other than to get to the car park. The thread which I mentioned above discusses whether it even meets the letterbox hybrid guidelines!)

 

It turns out that there are no guidelines for this. So when the French reviewer - who speaks more or less no German - saw it, he asked a German colleague to review and publish it. As a result, there's a cache in France which 98% of French people have no chance of ever finding (even if it wasn't 5/5). A translation of the listing from geocaching.com won't help either, as there are instructions along the trail, all of them in German only as well.

 

I would like to suggest an additional listing guideline, something like this:

 

"The text description of the cache should be written, as a minimum, either in an official language of the country in question, or in English. (Of course, translations in other languages are encouraged as well.)"

 

I suppose this has never been a big issue, with such a big percentage of caches being in English-speaking countries, but it's starting to be a touchy issue round here.

 

 

BTW, the "holiday cache" guidelines don't apply here - the cache owner lives about 10 miles from the cache, just across the border in Germany.

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Language For Cache Listings, Should local residents be able to understand it?

 

Traditionals, Multicaches: rather "yes"

Mystery/Unknown Caches: definitely "no"

 

I'd put additional stress on the fact that it is "one of the official local languages" and not "the majority language" (or English).

 

BalkanSabranje

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I'd put additional stress on the fact that it is "one of the official local languages" and not "the majority language" (or English).

 

I had a certain country in mind when I put "one of the official local languages" - I'm sure you can work out which one I mean. :D

 

"English only" seems to be widely accepted - I know of caches in Germany and France (and others) placed by local nationals but written only in English (sometimes to the detriment of comprehension, but that's another story). I still think it's preferable to use the local language, but it won't always be practical.

 

Language For Cache Listings, Should local residents be able to understand it?

 

Traditionals, Multicaches: rather "yes"

Mystery/Unknown Caches: definitely "no"

 

I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean that it should be OK for a Mystery cache in (say) Sweden to be written in (say) Dutch, but not OK for a multi? I don't see the distinction. But maybe I haven't understood.

 

I suppose one could argue that it hardly matters for a Traditional (give or take the hints), since many people go for those "paperless" anyway.

Edited by sTeamTraen
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Can I say "no" to language rules for caches, even though I've never been to a non-English-language cache?

 

If the cache owner makes it hard for local cachers to find his cache, whether intentionally or not, it's really his problem, since he went to the work to place the cache. And if you choose not to search for it, because of his decision not to make the cache listing easily understandable, then that's your decision.

 

But feel free to place a cache near me with the description entirely in Polish to see if I'll change my mind when this actually affects me. :D

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But feel free to place a cache near me with the description entirely in Polish to see if I'll change my mind when this actually affects me. :D

 

Yep, it was about at that point when I got interested in the issue. :D

 

In this specific case, I probably have enough German to manage it, but it's at the "wading through molasses and hoping I don't trip" level - not much fun. And a lot of local cachers don't have that level.

 

Another irony in this case is that the cache is situated in a fort which was constructed to keep out German invaders...

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I'd put additional stress on the fact that it is "one of the official local languages" and not "the majority language" (or English).
I had a certain country in mind when I put "one of the official local languages" - I'm sure you can work out which one I mean. :D

A part de l'alsace? Belgium, maybe?

 

"English only" seems to be widely accepted - I know of caches in Germany and France (and others) placed by local nationals but written only in English (sometimes to the detriment of comprehension, but that's another story). I still think it's preferable to use the local language, but it won't always be practical.

Well, I don't.

Since my home country has eight neighboring countries where about 10 different official (major) languages are spoken, it's rather difficult to understand all of them.

This is why I prefer "english + voluntary local language" for non-mystery caches.

 

Language For Cache Listings, Should local residents be able to understand it?

 

Traditionals, Multicaches: rather "yes"

Mystery/Unknown Caches: definitely "no"

I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean that it should be OK for a Mystery cache in (say) Sweden to be written in (say) Dutch, but not OK for a multi? I don't see the distinction. But maybe I haven't understood.

You got me right.

The distinction is simple: the description of a multi has to make it solvable with just the description and no additional information (at least that's how our local community understands the guidelines). A mystery may include a riddle or any other task that could make it necessary to get information before getting out.

 

I suppose one could argue that it hardly matters for a Traditional (give or take the hints), since many people go for those "paperless" anyway.

Yep, the hint is quite a task. Look at these two cache descriptions (SLO and EN ), that have triggered quite a discussion here (DE).

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But feel free to place a cache near me with the description entirely in Polish to see if I'll change my mind when this actually affects me. :D

Yep, it was about at that point when I got interested in the issue. :D

Polish is all right, as long as it's in Poland or a mystery. :D

 

In this specific case, I probably have enough German to manage it, but it's at the "wading through molasses and hoping I don't trip" level - not much fun. And a lot of local cachers don't have that level.

 

Another irony in this case is that the cache is situated in a fort which was constructed to keep out German invaders...

That is what irritates me most about this case: people seem to lack even the faintest intuiton/empathy.

It's as if some of them have never been to history lessons at school. :D

 

BS/2

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I don't see why this is a big deal. If you can't read, the page, there are several on-line translators. While these don't give a perfect translation, they are typically good enough to get the point across.

 

I've never seen anything understandable come out of an automatic translater.

 

But - to give it a try: could you please point me to a reasonable online polish-german translation service, sbell?!

 

TIA,

BS/2

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What happened is that a cache was placed in France, with a listing written entirely in German. No French version, no English version.

 

This is certainly not polite, but I do not feel that there should be a guideline for the choice of the language along the lines of your suggestion.

 

Now, in this part of France, many people do understand quite a bit of German, but many don't.

 

As long as there exists a reviewer who can understand the language and who is willing to take over

the responsability of accepting or declining the cache, I feel that even a cache written in Suaheli should not be declined when submitted in an European country just because of the chosen language.

If no one understands the descripition, then nobody will visit the cache. It's that simple.

 

A little bit more tricky is the hint section of traditional caches as there are many cachers who go out for traditional caches with only having the coordinates in their GPS and who are used to calling telephone jokers in case of troubles and ask them to read out the hint section. In such a case it might be that they realize for the first time that they are searching for a cache with a description the language of which they do not understand.

 

It turns out that there are no guidelines for this.

 

Fortunately, there is none.

 

So when the French reviewer - who speaks more or less no German - saw it, he asked a German colleague to review and publish it. As a result, there's a cache in France which 98% of French people have no chance of ever finding (even if it wasn't 5/5). A translation of the listing from geocaching.com won't help either, as there are instructions along the trail, all of them in German only as well.

 

Where is the problem? There are several caches in my region that 98% of the cachers will never have a chance to visit because they do not have the required capabilities.

 

I would like to suggest an additional listing guideline, something like this:

 

"The text description of the cache should be written, as a minimum, either in an official language of the country in question, or in English. (Of course, translations in other languages are encouraged as well.)"

 

I vote against it. In my opinion, there are only too many rules on gc.com.

 

Although I do not speak Slovenian (and cannot even read simple Slovene texts) and Slovenian is not an official language in Styria (the federal province of Austria where I live), I would feel it inappropriate to reject a cache listing written entirely in Slovenian hidden by a Slovenian cacher living close to the Styrian border.

There is no requirement for an English version, so why should there be one for the local language? It cannot be denied that there exists a reasonably large group of cachers who do not feel able to write a cache description in any language other than their own language.

 

If a cacher from Paris is allowed to hide a cache 50 kms away from Paris, then the same must be allowed to cachers living in border regions. There are many border regions in Europe where it is not that common that people on both sides speak the language of the people at the other side. For example, hardly any of my friends and colleagues speaks Slovenian or Hungarian although both countries are relatively close to where I live. Certainly people with a high level of education, usually are sufficiently proficient in English, but that is not the case for all cachers. The caches listed in country X are not to be considered as being the unique

possesion of the cachers in country X. Cachers coming from neighbouring countries are candidates to search for such caches as well. So why do you think that a cache close in French close to the German border written uniquely in French is a better cache than a cache in France close to the French border written only in French?

As long as the reviewing process can be handled, I feel that both situations are quite similar and should not be treated differently.

 

As the distinction of BalkanSabranje mystery caches vs the rest is regarded, I have to agree with him that mystery caches play a special role because there there is no argument whatsoever that can be used to require the usage of a particular language. There are many mystery caches which can only be solved by very special knowledge. Where is the difference, for example, between knowing a very specialized programming language and between knowing a certain foreign language?

 

Cezanne

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So why do you think that a cache close in French close to the German border written uniquely in French is a better cache than a cache in France close to the French border written only in French?

 

I don't. I just think that a cache in France shouldn't be written exclusively in German.

 

In theory, at the bottom line, the problem is mainly for the owner who will have no visitors.

 

In any case, the cache which got me bothered enough to write, fails to meet other guidelines as well (for example, it's listed as a letterbox hybrid but has zero GPS content).

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So why do you think that a cache close in French close to the German border written uniquely in French is a better cache than a cache in France close to the French border written only in French?

 

I don't. I just think that a cache in France shouldn't be written exclusively in German.

 

In theory, at the bottom line, the problem is mainly for the owner who will have no visitors.

 

In any case, the cache which got me bothered enough to write, fails to meet other guidelines as well (for example, it's listed as a letterbox hybrid but has zero GPS content).

As long as you can understand the coord's, what would keep people from finding it? :rolleyes:

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"... I just think that a cache in France shouldn't be written exclusively in German."

 

I believe the proper forum for this issue lies with the French Government. I'm sure you will find sympathetic ears in those halls where Apple is being forced to allow non-proprietary content on their proprietary systems (Ipods).

Edited by edchen
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It turns out that there are no guidelines for this. So when the French reviewer - who speaks more or less no German - saw it, he asked a German colleague to review and publish it. As a result, there's a cache in France which 98% of French people have no chance of ever finding (even if it wasn't 5/5). A translation of the listing from geocaching.com won't help either, as there are instructions along the trail, all of them in German only as well.

Are you saying this park/trail in France has signs written in german?? :rolleyes:

 

If I agreed that description should be written in the predominate language of the area, are all the mystery caches now banned too? Things written in Morse Code, Hieroglyphics, whatever you call this, and anything else I can't open the page and read will be outlawed? :P

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I have wondered about the guidelines/rules on language in cache listing too.

I am one of the few geocachers from Hong Kong. All listing in Hong Kong are currently in English.

Well, although most people in Hong Kong know English to different extent, it will certainly attract a far greater number of participants in this sport. I believe that all listings in China and Taiwan are also in English onlly.

 

I have been to Japan recently and sought out several caches there. In some of the listings in Japan area, there is an accompanying description in Japanese. Well, I can read and understand some of them and the names appear much more friendly in Kanji (Chinese characters) to me.

 

I have recently placed my first cache and am tempted to put a description in chinese but hesitated because no one has done this in my area listing before.

Do you have any suggestion?

 

Back to the above discussion. I prefer all cache listisngs can have English description with the optional local langauge. I agree that mystery type can be excluded under some circumstances, for example, how can you translate a cryptographic puzzle or other language oriented puzzles?

 

MB

Edited by melodicbard
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Slovenian is not an official language in Styria (the federal province of Austria where I live),

 

OT, but: Wrong, wrong, wrong.

This is what Mr. Wegart and the like wanted to make us believe over decades. In fact, Article VII says quite the contrary:

 

Staatsvertrag - Artikel 7

 

BGBl. Nr. 152/1955

 

Rechte der slowenischen und kroatischen Minderheiten

 

1. Österreichische Staatsangehörige der slowenischen und kroatischen Minderheit in Kärnten, Burgenland und Steiermark genießen dieselben Rechte auf Grund gleicher Bedingungen wie alle anderen österreichischen Staatsangehörigen einschließlich des Rechts auf ihre eigenen Organisationen, Versammlungen und Presse in eigener Sprache.

 

2. Sie haben Anspruch auf Elementarunterricht in slowenischer und kroatischer Sprache und auf eine verhältnismäßige Zahl eigener Mittelschulen; in diesem Zusammenhang werden Schullehrpläne überprüft und eine Abteilung der Schulaufsichtsbehörde wird für slowenische und kroatische Schulen errichtet werden.

 

3. In den Verwaltungs- und Gerichtsbezirken Kärntens, des Burgenlandes und der Steiermark mit slowenischer, kroatischer oder gemischter Bevölkerung wird die slowenische oder kroatische Sprache zusätzlich zum Deutschen als Amtssprache zugelassen. In solchen Bezirken werden die Bezeichnungen und Aufschriften topographischer Natur sowohl in slowenischer oder kroatischer Sprache wie in Deutsch verfaßt.

 

4. Österreichische Staatsangehörige der slowenischen und kroatischen Minderheiten in Kärnten, Burgenland und Steiermark nehmen an den kulturellen, Verwaltungs- und Gerichtseinrichtungen in diesen Gebieten auf Grund gleicher Bedingungen wie andere österreichische Staatsangehörige teil.

 

5. Die Tätigkeit von Organisationen, die darauf abzielen, der kroatischen oder slowenischen Bevölkerung ihre Eigenschaft und ihre Rechte als Minderheit zu nehmen, ist zu verbieten.

 

Back on topic:

 

Are you saying this park/trail in France has signs written in german??

This is not totally uncommon for an area where a good part of the population does speak this language. But, knowing the French, I'd hesitate assuming that those signs are JUST in German.

 

BS/2

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Slovenian is not an official language in Styria (the federal province of Austria where I live),

 

OT, but: Wrong, wrong, wrong.

This is what Mr. Wegart and the like wanted to make us believe over decades. In fact, Article VII says quite the contrary:

 

Well, I oversimplified things as my posting became that long already without going into such details not relevant for the context. The text you quote is known to me, but I was not referring to minorities.

 

The typical situation where it might happen that a cache uniquely described in Slovenian appears at gc.com is that a Slovenian cache living close to the border to Austria, hides a cache in Austria. The other cases more or less will contain a sort of political message, and that's not the issue here.

 

Are you saying this park/trail in France has signs written in german??

This is not totally uncommon for an area where a good part of the population does speak this language. But, knowing the French, I'd hesitate assuming that those signs are JUST in German.

 

I do not know the cache which initiated this thread, but I know that there are caches where some or all stages lie in one country and the cache lies in another country. In those cases it will happen very frequently that signs and texts that play a role in the cache are not available in the language of the country where the cache is hidden.

 

 

Cezanne

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So why do you think that a cache close in French close to the German border written uniquely in French is a better cache than a cache in France close to the French border written only in French?

 

I don't. I just think that a cache in France shouldn't be written exclusively in German.

 

If a cache is located close to a border, it is not even clear which people will be the main audience for the cache. Provide me with any reasonable argument why a cache located in Germany 2 kilometers from the border to France is different to a cache in France 2 kilometers away from the border to Germany.

 

Certainly it is nice to have multilingual cache descriptions, but if monolingual cache descriptions in languages other than English are allowed, then you will also have to live with cases like the one which started this thread. Personally, I feel that an English description is the most important one (even much more important than a description in a local language), but I do know that there exist many cachers that do not feel competent enough to write a cache description in a foreign language, in particular not in the case of complicated descriptions. I have to admit that I would not manage to translate most of my cache descriptions into French, and I do not think that many people would volunteer to help me. In case I would live close to the French border in Germany, I might well wish to hide a cache in France instead of hiding one in Germany at a much larger distance to my home. In my case I would offer an English description as well, but on the other hand, there are people in Alsace who speak German much better than English.

 

 

In theory, at the bottom line, the problem is mainly for the owner who will have no visitors.

 

Right. So the hider can decide - it is not at all an issue for the potential searcher. Of course, as mentioned

in my previous posting there needs to be a reviewer who is able to review the cache and who will take the responsability.

 

In any case, the cache which got me bothered enough to write, fails to meet other guidelines as well (for example, it's listed as a letterbox hybrid but has zero GPS content).

 

I have not looked at the cache page as the issue here is the language of the description.

But one note is in order here: The reviewers agreed that a letterbox hybrid does not need to have a GPS content. This information has also been made public in German geocaching fora - so it is no wonder that such caches are submitted and accepted.

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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I just looked at the cache page in question and the owner posted a note in English that the French translation will follow.

 

I agree it would have been nice to include the translation from the beginning. In any case it looks as though someone asked him before the OP asked him and he said he'd do it.

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It turns out that there are no guidelines for this. So when the French reviewer - who speaks more or less no German - saw it, he asked a German colleague to review and publish it. As a result, there's a cache in France which 98% of French people have no chance of ever finding (even if it wasn't 5/5). A translation of the listing from geocaching.com won't help either, as there are instructions along the trail, all of them in German only as well.

Are you saying this park/trail in France has signs written in german?? :P

 

Are you saying this park/trail in France has signs written in german??

This is not totally uncommon for an area where a good part of the population does speak this language. But, knowing the French, I'd hesitate assuming that those signs are JUST in German.

 

Ok, so its common in border areas, but this thread is bascially a complaint about it? :D

And a good part of the population speaks the language, but 98% won't be able to read the cache page?? :):ph34r:

Maybe I'm being stupid, but to me these seem to not be the same at all :D .

 

edit: fixed quoting

Edited by welch
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As long as you can understand the coord's, what would keep people from finding it? :P

 

Because the cache is not a traditional. It's listed as a letterbox hybrid, and it's a multi-stage puzzle. At every stage you have to interpret a code on a map. The instructions to interpret the code are written exclusively in German.

 

IMHO the cache violates the letterbox guidelines, at least in spirit if not to the letter, because there should be "GPS content", and the only GPS involvement is finding the car park. I've got another thread open about that. :)

 

Are you saying this park/trail in France has signs written in german?? :D

 

No - the cache doesn't use existing signs - it uses information left on the trail (by the owner), which is either written in German, or in a code which can only be decrypted using instructions which are only available in German.

 

Provide me with any reasonable argument why a cache located in Germany 2 kilometers from the border to France is different to a cache in France 2 kilometers away from the border to Germany.

 

None, of course; maybe I should place one 2km inside Germany with a French-only description. At least I'd know that one person here would back me up. :ph34r: (Actually, I own one about 300 metres inside Germany, but the description is in English).

 

I guess it comes down to the fact that, rightly or wrongly, most cachers still think their country is important (there, that should get some American readers on my side :D). There's an excellent French site (www.geocaching-france.com) which is doing a great job of catching up some of France's 2-3 year "lag" in the sport. It has stats on all the caches people have found in France, etc. People feel strongly about this.

 

I work for a European international organisation and I've found more caches in Germany than in France, so I'm not some kind of nationalist. But as I'm sure you know, this sort of thing is a big issue in France, for good and bad reasons. Don't forget that for many French peope, especially in Alsace, the Germans have a bit of a reputation for arriving unannounced and heavy-handed...

 

Just off-hand, I wonder what the reaction would be if caches started appearing in New York written only in Spanish?

 

I just looked at the cache page in question and the owner posted a note in English that the French translation will follow.

 

I agree it would have been nice to include the translation from the beginning. In any case it looks as though someone asked him before the OP asked him and he said he'd do it.

 

No, I was the first to ask him - with a touch of irony... in fact, I didn't expect a reply, but a couple of other logs (since deleted) got a bit more heated, and I think he's trying to defuse the situation. We'll see if a French version appears.

 

I suspect a note at the top of the listing saying "Sorry, I don't speak French, but feel free to e-mail me for an English version" would have helped a lot.

Edited by sTeamTraen
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I've never seen anything understandable come out of an automatic translater.

 

But - to give it a try: could you please point me to a reasonable online polish-german translation service, sbell?!

You know, some of my favorite really old threads were about how off the online translations are. Some of the results are just down right hilarious. In fact, if you translate something through a number of languages and back to the original one, it just gets funnier.

 

So what?

 

Perhaps a person will have to get the cache owner to translate or get someone else to do it. Perhaps he will have to obtain a book and translate it himself. <GASP> Maybe there will be some caches that will not get found by some people.

 

Big deal. :D

 

To answer your question, I cannot find you a translator specific to your purposes as I speak neither Polish nor German.

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IMHO the cache violates the letterbox guidelines, at least in spirit if not to the letter, because there should be "GPS content", and the only GPS involvement is finding the car park. I've got another thread open about that. :ph34r:

 

The letterbox guidelines as written at the moment, contradict themselves. As I have written already earlier, the reviewers had a discussion on letterbox hybrids in their forum, and the result was that the only requirement is the existence of a stamp. At least one German reviewer even encourages cachers to use the type letterbox hybrid in case of caches where no GPS involvement is needed.

 

Provide me with any reasonable argument why a cache located in Germany 2 kilometers from the border to France is different to a cache in France 2 kilometers away from the border to Germany.

 

None, of course; maybe I should place one 2km inside Germany with a French-only description. At least I'd know that one person here would back me up. :D (Actually, I own one about 300 metres inside Germany, but the description is in English).

 

Yes, you have have my support for hiding a cache in Germany with a French-only description as I do not think that the issue is something that should be regulated by gc.com. It is always possible to ask a cache hider if he could come up with another language version or offer help to obtain a translation, but this should be no requirement for having listed a cache at gc.com.

Apart from the arguments I provided already, there is another one: The rule you suggest would lead to an increase in the number of caches that exist on other cache listing sites (e.g. opencaching.de in the case of German cachers) and are not crosslisted on gc.com which is of no advantage whatsoever for anyone who wants to fight for the internationality of geocaching.

 

Personally, I am even logging in English (and additionally in German or the local language whereever possible and necessary). The issue here is not that it is certainly better to offer a cache hidden in France not only in German, the issue is whether there should be rules at the gc.com site prescribing the languages to be used.

 

 

I guess it comes down to the fact that, rightly or wrongly, most cachers still think their country is important

 

I do not feel that my country (Austria) is important.

 

There's an excellent French site (www.geocaching-france.com) which is doing a great job of catching up some of France's 2-3 year "lag" in the sport. It has stats on all the caches people have found in France, etc. People feel strongly about this.

 

I know the site a little bit. It is indeed quite nice and you know that I was one of the persons who also supported the introduction of the French-speaking subforum (well, unlike habot I am not an important person at gc.com - so my support did not help).

 

May I ask the following: Where is the relation between the French site and the issue of a single 5*/5* cache very close to the German border which is only offered in German language so far? The fact that the cache is hidden on French soil does not make it a possession of the French geocaching community.

If the French cachers wish to have a 5*/5* night cache or a letterbox hybrid, they can hide one of their own.

Hiding caches is just an offer - no one is required to search for a particular cache and nobody can force others to hide their caches for a particular audience.

 

How can a cache like the discussed one do harm to the French geocaching site?

 

BTW: 5*/5* are minority caches anyway. I am not aware of that many French extreme cachers living close to Germany.

 

I work for a European international organisation and I've found more caches in Germany than in France, so I'm not some kind of nationalist.

 

I am aware of that, moreover you are not of French origin.

 

But as I'm sure you know, this sort of thing is a big issue in France, for good and bad reasons. Don't forget that for many French peope, especially in Alsace, the Germans have a bit of a reputation for arriving unannounced and heavy-handed...

 

I am also well aware of that. I wrote earlier that I regard a cache hidden in France exclusively written in German as inpolite (the same holds true for a French cache in Germany).

I also think that the habit of logging caches in Dutch or German in countries where German and Dutch are not official languages, is inpolite. Nevertheless it happens quite frequently and is certainly nothing where gc.com should introduce any new rules about.

 

 

Just off-hand, I wonder what the reaction would be if caches started appearing in New York written only in Spanish?

 

Some people will certainly complain and it might become an issue with the review process. Apart from that, I guess that there are more people in New York you can cope with a Spanish description than with very hard mystery caches which often require a much more specialized knowledge which is available to much less cachers.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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My two cents: Caches should (voluntarily) be in the de facto language of the nation it is hidden in. Multi-lingual is fine, if the cache owner does that, but, IMO, a cache in France should be in French (as well as any other language the hider wants to add).

 

I guess I see the point that it shouldn't be a requirement for listing. I just think it is pretty rude.

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Just off-hand, I wonder what the reaction would be if caches started appearing in New York written only in Spanish?

 

This cache near Cleveland, Ohio (where probably less of the population speaks Spanish than in New York) has a description entirely in Spanish.

 

Que What You Call Your Pasa?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...9f-9a29cce73c73

 

I don't think anyone has complained about that. They just dealt with it.

Edited by beejay&esskay
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Provide me with any reasonable argument why a cache located in Germany 2 kilometers from the border to France is different to a cache in France 2 kilometers away from the border to Germany.

 

Well, if I remember correctly, France hasn't invaded Germany since Napoleon. That's quite difference compared to German history in the 20th century. :laughing:

 

BS/2

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Provide me with any reasonable argument why a cache located in Germany 2 kilometers from the border to France is different to a cache in France 2 kilometers away from the border to Germany.

 

Well, if I remember correctly, France hasn't invaded Germany since Napoleon. That's quite difference compared to German history in the 20th century. :laughing:

 

Apart from the fact that geocaching is a leisure activity and not a political one, I have to state that what you provided cannot be considered as an argument for what I asked for. I did not give details on the nationality of the hider of the cache.

 

My line of thought was that a French cacher living in Alsace will typically apply a nearest search to list unfound caches and there it makes no difference whether a cache is located in Germany or France.

A cache written entirely in German will not become easier for him/her in case it is located a few meters from the French border on the German side than if the cache is located on French soil.

The same type of example holds for many other combinations of countries/languages as well.

 

It can clearly be seen from the description of the cache which initiated this thread, that it does not convey a political message. It is just a cache for cachers who like rather extreme, adventurous caches - as the description is complicated I can well imagine that many hiders of such caches even have problems of providing an English version (not to speak of a French version). Have a look at the German speaking geocaching fora - there you will see that many cachers there even have troubles with German spelling and grammar though it is their mother tongue.

 

Cezanne

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It can clearly be seen from the description of the cache which initiated this thread, that it does not convey a political message. It is just a cache for cachers who like rather extreme, adventurous caches - as the description is complicated I can well imagine that many hiders of such caches even have problems of providing an English version (not to speak of a French version). Have a look at the German speaking geocaching fora - there you will see that many cachers there even have troubles with German spelling and grammar though it is their mother tongue.

 

Well it's at least thoughtless and rude.

 

And if I lived close to the french border and don't speak french or english (which is strange enough for an obviousdly young person like the owner), I'd ask someone to translate at least a small sentence of excuse for the time being.

 

But that's just how I'd do it. :laughing:

 

BS/2

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I think that just because a few believe it to be thoughtless and rude, does not make it so.

 

If memory serves, Monkeybrad has a couple of caches locally for which the cache page is in Spanish. He's not obviously of latin lineage and the predominent language among local cachers is not Spanish. Yet, I have heard no grumbling over his decision.

 

This reminds me of that silly metric thread from a while back. Perhaps some people should consider getting over themselves.

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It can clearly be seen from the description of the cache which initiated this thread, that it does not convey a political message. It is just a cache for cachers who like rather extreme, adventurous caches - as the description is complicated I can well imagine that many hiders of such caches even have problems of providing an English version (not to speak of a French version). Have a look at the German speaking geocaching fora - there you will see that many cachers there even have troubles with German spelling and grammar though it is their mother tongue.

 

Well it's at least thoughtless and rude.

 

That formulation is definitely too strong from my point of view.

 

The cache is addressed to the comparatively small group of cachers liking extreme cachers - a group which does not appear to have many members in the French geocaching community living close to the German-French border. Hence I do not necessarily regard it at as thoughtless to publish the cache only in German. I agree that it would have been more polite to add at least a comment on the unique availability of a German version, but I also believe that there exist better ways of "asking" for a translation into another language than posting a somewhat provocating note on the cache page (and moreover complaining about other aspects of the cache elsewhere). If the translation should mainly serve the purpose of offering the possibility to a larger group of cachers to critizice the cache, then this is certainly not something the owner of a cache would like to support.

 

 

And if I lived close to the french border and don't speak french or english (which is strange enough for an obviousdly young person like the owner),

 

It is not that strange as typically French is in the best case a second foreign language for Germans and in many educational branches there exists no second foreign language at all. As English is regarded, you are right only insofar that the regular education of people in Germany below a certain age

(which excludes for example people from the former GDR educational system) involves English lessons in school. The aquired language profiency of people with a low to medium level education does not suffice at all to translate a complex text into English. A quite large group of cachers which is still growing is not even able to handle minor issues which come up in the review process if the communication needs to be undertaken in English.

 

I still, however, do not understand the difference between a cache very close to the German-French border on the German side and one on the French side. The basic audience for both caches will be the same. Either one can argue that both caches need to have a multilingual description, or it is ok for both caches to be available only in a certain language whatever that may be. I feel that the assigning caches to a particular country is something rather artificial in many regions of Europe where we have many borders. I know caches which are cross-border caches where the hider changes the assigned country from time to time, and changes it back after a while.

 

 

Cezanne

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d694958a-867a-4d81-aa3a-34d31b48f0c7.jpg

 

Hope this announcement contributes somewhat to the interests of this discussion group. Many Swiss Geocachers have contributed to a Bookmark list summarizing Swiss Geocache Listings with an English Translation.

For all that don't understand (Swiss-)German, French or Italian, we so want to contribute to a more interesting experience while visiting Switzerland on Caching matters... Many of the listings have truly interesting stories to be told on the site you are visiting, or you can finally also start to takle Multi- and Mysery-Caches abroad.

Currently close to 7000 Listings have been screened for compliance with the Bookmark requirements and the collection currently consists of close to 800 listings with more to come.

 

So enjoy your visit in Switzerland. By the way: There is a Mega-Event comming up very soon!

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