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Cheminer Will

Another Question About The Slow Website

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I'll pay CR's extra cash and mine. I think for what this site gives most of us, and the happiness it gives most of us that we may or may not have previously had, we may be underpaying for the bandwith that we blow. Personally, I would have no problem giving double or more of what the premium membership is now. $5 of $10 dollars a month would seem fair to me.

 

Remember that some of us have to watch every dollar. Also some, like us have more than one premium account in the immediate family.

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I'll pay CR's extra cash and mine. I think for what this site gives most of us, and the happiness it gives most of us that we may or may not have previously had, we may be underpaying for the bandwith that we blow. Personally, I would have no problem giving double or more of what the premium membership is now.

 

I'm sure Jeremy smiles at statements like this. If you're so eager to contribute are you leaving gift certificates to the site as trades? Go ahead. Empty your pockets if you so desire.

 

Me, I see waste. I won't reward waste with more money.

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Me, I see waste. I won't reward waste with more money.

 

You don't pay at all, actually.

 

And since you are carping about throwing hardware at a problem without actually reading my previous responses you aren't listening either.

Edited by Jeremy

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Me, I see waste. I won't reward waste with more money.

 

You don't pay at all, actually.

 

 

Zing!

 

Nice one.

 

It's frustrating hearing all the people gripe and complain about a site that is so cool. It's slow sometimes because it's so popular, and it's popular because of all the great things Jeremy and company have done.

 

Gold bars kicked out two years after they're promised are still gold bars!

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Me, I see waste. I won't reward waste with more money.

 

You don't pay at all, actually.

 

And since you are carping about throwing hardware at a problem without actually reading my previous responses you aren't listening either.

 

Well, I wonder who is responsible for the "Charter Member" under our main account, then? Was it free? I think not.

 

I saw your responses, but upon reading mine you would see what I was actually refering to.

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I'll pay 10 times as much just to keep things running at all. I understand the complexities. Sometimes you just need to throw more hardware at it - sometimes you just need to find that one elusive bad piece of code (SQL or whatever).

 

Meanwhile, I am amazed at the total workload the current server support. All those PQs, page loads, searches, logs, picture uploads, page counts, log counts, etc... - lots of work being done there.

 

Good work guys.

 

(Looking forward to the optimized always running 10,000 logs per second site :D )

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If throwing more money at the problem (So Jeremy can get a top-notch SQL guru to come in and help) will help get things fixed sooner rather than later I would pay a higher fee for added benefits.

 

Perhaps a Geocaching.com Supporter membership that costs $75 per year with the following benefits.

 

- 10 PQs with 1000 caches in 'em per day

- Instant Notification ranges greater than 50 miles

- The often begged for Archived Caches in PQ's

- More than 100 caches in bookmarks

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Ultimately any company has to define and offer a product or service and people have to decide to buy it. Other companies can offer products or services which compete.

 

If people are not satisfied with the service, put in their suggestions and don't get satisfaction, they ultimately have no recourse but to take their business elsewhere.

 

The availability of the web site is part of the service. If it becomes less valuable to people, they will stop paying for the product.

 

Just let the market work.

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If people are not satisfied with the service, put in their suggestions and don't get satisfaction, they ultimately have no recourse but to take their business elsewhere.

 

I'm sure there are a few customers that Jeremy would love see take their complaints, I mean business, elsewhere.

 

The only reason they stick around is because there's no other alternative that even comes close to this site.

 

Of course, sometimes the CRybabies make the forums more fun.

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Granted, often I have to self moderate due to the "do as I say, not as I do" responses I sometimes generate, but don't make posts as personal attacks even if they are subtle.

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The barrier to entry for competition is the installed-cache-base, not the site quality. Every site can improve their features, but only the customers can provide the caches.

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Nice one.

 

Would have been if it were accurate. It was not.

Dude, I don't get you. You should be more patient than anybody else. How much money have you made on the back of Jeremy's work?

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The barrier to entry for competition is the installed-cache-base, not the site quality. Every site can improve their features, but only the customers can provide the caches.

 

I think a lot of people miss this point. Groundspeak only provides the medium in which we list our caches. The true provider of product are the cache owners.

 

Only if there where an exodus of cache owners fed up with folks not being able to log their caches would there be any true pressure.

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The barrier to entry for competition is the installed-cache-base, not the site quality. Every site can improve their features, but only the customers can provide the caches.

 

Only if there where an exodus of cache owners fed up with folks not being able to log their caches would there be any true pressure.

 

Hmmm... maybe if you lead the way, others would follow?

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Well, I wonder who is responsible for the "Charter Member" under our main account, then? Was it free? I think not.

 

So Does that mean that Coyotered is a sockpuppet then

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So Does that mean that Coyotered is a sockpuppet then

I don't think he is, the Forum Guidelines says
A sock puppet is an account made on an internet message board by a person who already has an account for the purpose of posting anonymously.
CoyoteRed isn't posting anonymously his sig tell you he is "CR of Sissy-n-CR"

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So Does that mean that Coyotered is a sockpuppet then

I don't think he is, the Forum Guidelines says
A sock puppet is an account made on an internet message board by a person who already has an account for the purpose of posting anonymously.
CoyoteRed isn't posting anonymously his sig tell you he is "CR of Sissy-n-CR"

 

So he has Two accounts and one is a charter the other is just a member sounds like a sock puppet to me, even if he has been using it as his main account in the forums

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So he has Two accounts and one is a charter the other is just a member sounds like a sock puppet to me, even if he has been using it as his main account in the forums

 

Well, yeah. Except for that pesky anonymity problem you're all set.

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It is his wife's account. He's not allowed to post in the forums under that account. I generally mention he doesn't pay when he complains about not getting enough features that he pays for.

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It is his wife's account. He's not allowed to post in the forums under that account. I generally mention he doesn't pay when he complains about not getting enough features that he pays for.

 

Have you been slacking off on the job :D:D:DB):D:tired::tired::)

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The barrier to entry for competition is the installed-cache-base, not the site quality. Every site can improve their features, but only the customers can provide the caches.

 

I think a lot of people miss this point. Groundspeak only provides the medium in which we list our caches. The true provider of product are the cache owners.

 

Only if there where an exodus of cache owners fed up with folks not being able to log their caches would there be any true pressure.

I don't think it is us that is missing the point. This mass exodus isn't happening. I think most of us do in fact get it. The site rocks. It is exceptionally popular because it well organized, has great features, offers extra features to those who pay a measly few bucks a month and is constantly going though changes to update and enhance the experience for the user. In effect, they are trying to make it better and better every day and we see the results of their labor. More and more people keep flocking to it rather than leaving it. Isn't that what we are talking about? Are you missing that fact?

 

Like I say, I don't think it is us that is missing the point here. The exodus is not happening. The facts show that it is exactly the opposite. The consistent increase in popularity of the site reinforce that statement.

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The site rocks.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of good thoughts being thought towards Seatle when someone's log times out with an error. :tired:

 

Yep. Yessiree.

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The site rocks.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of good thoughts being thought towards Seatle when someone's log times out with an error. :tired:

 

Yep. Yessiree.

No, I don't jump out of my chair and cheer when I get a time out. But, I do have other things I can do in life so I move on and come back later. Like I say, most of us get it. You seem to sit around and look for things to complain about on the site. If the biggest complaint you have is that this is a popular site then it is what it is. Other sites look exactly the same as they did years ago. They were not user friendly then and they are not user friendly now. At least Groundspeak works to make this site better. They are obviously working to increase the ability to handle the increased traffic or else traffic stats would be flat. Jeremy has explained a bit about what is going on. I can accept his explanation and at least he keeps "workin' on it". Other sites don't do anything at all, as you can see by going to the public one. For most of us, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. That is why we (and seemingly you) keep coming back.

 

I see that the exodus is from the other sites, not this one. Like I say, the facts regarding increased traffic speak for themselves.

 

Carp away.

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No, I don't jump out of my chair and cheer when I get a time out.

 

But, you said this site rocks.

 

Anyway, I don't choose to be a "Yes Man." I call 'em like I see 'em. Just because something is the only game in town doesn't mean it can't be better. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have flaws. You and some others who have posted here think the best means it's perfect. Well, it's far from it. That is what I get.

 

BTW, I noticed some of the suggestions I repeated earlier were never addressed. Is there something wrong with reducing the number of clicks? ...of reducing server load?

 

Oh, and what happens if the "magic bullet" of a highly optimized database doesn't cut it? I offered real solutions, one of which could be implemented right now and it would be for everyone, not just paying members, which would benefit everyone. Was there even a "I think that idea sucks" much less why it wouldn't work? Nope. Just a "you don't know what you're talking about" and the ever present "love it or leave it" junk.

 

SQL tricks aren't the only way to solve problems, but it seems like management thinks so.

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Just because something is the only game in town doesn't mean it can't be better. It doesn't mean that it doesn't have flaws. You and some others who have posted here think the best means it's perfect. Well, it's far from it. That is what I get.

Please point out to me where I said it was perfect. I didn't. What I said is that at least Groundspeak keeps trying to make it better. That is FAR more that what others do. I choose to geocache. This is the best gaming site for that on the planet. Since you didn't read my post obviously (like you don't read Jeremy's obviously), let me quote it one more time for you (and make it bigger).

For most of us, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. That is why we (and seemingly you) keep coming back.

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Since you didn't read my post obviously...

 

Actually, I read the post, just like I read Jeremy's. Both of you are using an arguing technique that skips over the important stuff and harps on the irrelevant. I mean like, "duh," there is a reason I keep coming back to this site. If you think it's because of all of the wonderful features and rock solid performance, guess again.

 

Critical mass is the only reason someone else hasn't come along and trounced Groundspeak in the website design department. I've read it plenty of times in various places. Folks who do this for a living have expressed they could do it better, but doubt it would be worth it because of critical mass.

 

Critical mass is why there isn't much competition, it's why most folks don't go to other sites, and it's why I'm still here. I care about the hobby and I keep putting my two cents in where it will have the largest audience and do the most good.

 

Now, shall we address the issues of this thread instead arguing over whether this site is the largest, most viable geocaching site in the planet?

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Folks who do this for a living have expressed they could do it better, but doubt it would be worth it because of critical mass

 

Hmmmmmm - seems to me that TPTB do this for living.......

 

Sorry to be so skeptical, but until I see them actually do it - it is hard to believe that some of the users hold some magic ticket to performance issues without buying more hardware or doing something that hasn't been implemented already. I know of no site that gives the vast personalized interactive experience that this one does for so little money. Call me a blind cheerleader if you will but talk is cheap........

Edited by StarBrand

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The major issue we have at the moment is SQL - we need an MSSQL developer that understands the inner workings of SQL - right down to the low level behind the scenes work that SQL is doing for each query. I'm sure we can knock off some of the inefficiencies in the queries right there but it will involve some specialized person to dive into it.

To hopefully get back to get back on thread. Be sure to get someone with experience with the database you are using. I have extensive experience with tuning code for Oracle databases, some experience with DB/2 and very little with Microsoft SQL server. I have found that some ways of writing SQL statements are bad for all types of relational databases. But when you having to really fine tune the SQL, you need expertise with the specific database, because what will make a major improvement in one, may not help another in fact may actually make it worse. So if you were using Oracle I probably could help, I helped one DBA with a database, which had several table in the terabyte size. If you used DB/2 I might be able to help. However I assume you are using SQL server and I don't think I could help there.

 

So the point is to get the help you want, you need an expert in the specific database you are using not just an SQL expert.

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Sorry to be so skeptical, but until I see them actually do it - it is hard to believe that some of the users hold some magic ticket to performance issues without buying more hardware or doing something that hasn't been implemented already.

 

Well, it's not my place to speak for them, but don't assume that there aren't active geocachers who aren't more fluent in web development than those at Groundspeak.

 

Also, don't assume there is a "magic ticket to performance issues" which apparently TPTB are banking on to solve their problems. Could be a leading expert could come in and declare they've already optimized code to the best it could perform for the way they are doing it now.

 

What then? Contrary to what I've been accused of I did read that Jeremy wants to stay away for more hardware.

 

In a situation where every click counts, I don't see any move to save clicks. Even if there were no performance enhancements, an easy programming change could reduce frustration. I've alluded to it above, yet TPTB were silent on it. Place a link on the Nearest Cache Page so users can go directly to the logging page. If nothing else, it would save a wait for the cache page to open. Place it where it is visible to everyone, and not some "trick" for only those in-the-know, and you will at least have some relief.

 

That's just one solution that would help. There are others. ...and it doesn't rely on hoping that 'Magic SQL Bullet" exists.

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Dude, I still support your mass exodus idea!!! It's wonderful. All we need here is a strong leader and the rest are sure to follow.

 

I'd love to see you be that leader, and start the exodus yourself.

 

(Thumbing my nose at Jeremy) Nah nah nah, we're all outta here! As soon as CR leaves we're definitely going to do the same.

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... Place a link on the Nearest Cache Page so users can go directly to the logging page. If nothing else, it would save a wait for the cache page to open. Place it where it is visible to everyone, and not some "trick" for only those in-the-know, and you will at least have some relief.

...

Look, everyone is tired of your ranting. Its getting kinda sad. You've told TPTB about the issues. Jeremy is workin' on it. Now just shut up and see if you like the results.

 

It might be helpful to remember that Groundspeak has a finite amount of geeks at its disposal. These programmers can either be giving us new toys to play with or they can be retraining the hampsters to run faster. They are unlikely to be able to both at the same time.

 

BTW, for quick logging, just go directly to the log page by typing http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?wp=gcxxxx in your favorite browser. Obviously, replace the Xs with the cache's waypoint.

Edited by sbell111

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Be sure to get someone with experience with the database you are using.

 

Exactly. For high-traffic high-availability MSSql servers there's only a finite number of folks that have this kind of experience. I have a call into Microsoft Consulting but they can be hella-expensive. We also have a few contacts built up over the years. No big hits yet but we're working on it.

 

I'm sure that an experienced SQL person would find some low hanging fruit but we're definitely looking for a better overall solution. It probably irritates me far more than anyone having trouble logging on a Sunday. They can walk away and come back later. I have to deal with it.

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BTW, for quick logging, just go directly to the log page by typing http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?wp=gcxxxx in your favorite browser. Obviously, replace the Xs with the cache's waypoint.

Workaround methods which are not specifically encouraged by the site through workflow design will not make a difference in load.

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I didn't share that workaround to speed the site. Jeremy's in charge of that.

 

I gave it as an option that allows quick and easy logging.

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It does reduce load. It just won't significantly improve overall load on the site.

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If throwing more money at the problem (So Jeremy can get a top-notch SQL guru to come in and help) will help get things fixed sooner rather than later I would pay a higher fee for added benefits.

 

Perhaps a Geocaching.com Supporter membership that costs $75 per year with the following benefits.

 

- 10 PQs with 1000 caches in 'em per day

- Instant Notification ranges greater than 50 miles

- The often begged for Archived Caches in PQ's

- More than 100 caches in bookmarks

 

That is all you want for a $45 dollar increase? shoot give me a free meal a week at Red Lobster with local reviewers and you got yourself a deal..oh...a t-shirt...everyone loves free t-shirts...and swag, not mc-toys, I mean the good stuff, the Groundspeak stuff..

 

Now, back to your topic at hand....I am not an expert by any means when it comes to all the really nitty gritty tech stuff, but just from what I have heard the server is one size too small and the people usage is one size too big and there just needs to be more room for the server to go...if I am totally off oh well, I said to begin with I did not know that much so na na na na :unsure:

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It probably irritates me far more than anyone having trouble logging on a Sunday. They can walk away and come back later. I have to deal with it.

 

This statement by Jeremy is very succinct and is the main reason I am now confident the problems will eventually be solved! Who in their right mind would want to have to deal with threads like this on a regular basis? I now feel I should apologize for starting it with my original question.

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It probably irritates me far more than anyone having trouble logging on a Sunday. They can walk away and come back later. I have to deal with it.

 

And this is how any professional that deals with technology feels. I'm a mainframe systems programmer and it grates me to no end when my system suddenly, and for no apparent reason, develops some glitch or performance degrades. I'm fortunate enough to have a patient base of users (and boss) who understands that change doesn't happen overnight, I'm doing the best I can, and I'll have implement the best fix I can as soon as I can.

 

I'm more than content to give Groundspeak time to take care of things. It's the normal cycle of a growing customer base in relation to technology. As we've all seen before...as soon as they fix one performance issue, the next one starts building up and it WILL happen again.

 

Wish I could offer some advice, Jeremy, but I manage a z/OS system on big iron running VSAM and ADABAS applications. Probably not much help to you! :unsure:

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I think I read that it would be two years. I'll wait it out. :unsure:

Edited by sbell111

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No word from CR lately. Maybe the exodus has begun. Has he started his own site already?

www.mywayorthehighwaymarking.com

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No word from CR lately.

 

What do you want me to say? Either you get it or you don't.

 

Oh, I see what you're trying to do. You're trying to goad me into saying something ugly to you so Jeremy will have no choice but give me a couple of days off. Sorry, you don't have that kind of power. You only caught me on the wrong day last time. It wasn't really about you. You were only the last straw of long list of things and you got in the way. Sorry about that.

 

But, today I'm not cranky.

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It probably irritates me far more than anyone having trouble logging on a Sunday. They can walk away and come back later. I have to deal with it.

 

This statement by Jeremy is very succinct and is the main reason I am now confident the problems will eventually be solved! Who in their right mind would want to have to deal with threads like this on a regular basis? I now feel I should apologize for starting it with my original question.

There's no need to apologize for voicing a concern that many of us have had - this topic comes up often in our area, at events, unevents, and in our local forums.

 

I recall during a major software update months ago that the "Sunday Night Slowdown" went away for a while, so I know that TPTB is trying for a cost-effective solution. Someone better-informed of this issue has posted in our local forums appealing for any reasonable help recently, just before your starting this thread.

Edited by budd-rdc

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I would like to add a blue collar outlook on this topic.

When I go to work, my single purpose is to keep a machine running, and I get paid well to do it. If my machine takes a crap in the middle of a run, I have to answer for it. It is truly amazing how many "shirt and ties" have my undivided attention when they are losing $25,000 an hour. It is also amazing how they could care less about me when everything is running smoothly.

Now to my point. Do I take it personally when the machine takes a crap? Oh, most certainly! Do I do everything in my power to make sure it never happens again? Most certainly again!

How does this relate to the forums?

Do you think that Jeremy wants to see threads like this? Again, most certainly not! I believe that all naysayers, should let the man do his job. If anyone doubts his dedication, I "double dog dare you" to start a thread on the subject.

Edited by bottlecap

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The tone of this thread has gotten a little disconcerting. While I seldom agree with CR, I can tell that he is active and concerned geocacher and is making his comments and suggestions because he feels this is in the best interest of geocaching. For most geocachers, especially those that pay for premium memberships, it is most important that the site be available whenever they are planning a geocaching outing and then when they log their finds. I think for some, it may be most important that the forum software is working :rolleyes: . Jeremy knows that every year around this time, the servers begin to feel the strain of all the new users, especially on the weekends. Could he plan better for this? Perhaps. If this were Google, where growth may be more predictable and the heaviest load is probably on weekdays and money is no object, we would expect the new hardware to be in place well before it is needed. But even Google had to turn off Google Earth downloads for awhile in the beginning because there were so many downloads. Geocaching.com has limited budget and limited staff. They are trying hard to meet the demands placed on the website within these constraints. In addition, the problem of slow response when logging finds on Sunday evening isn't the end of the world. You can log your finds later when there is not so much load.

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Why not program an "expert mode" and allow in-the-know users skip steps in logging? Wouldn't it be trivial to program a "Log Me" button next to a cache listing on the Nearest Cache page? Wouldn't that skip a page that loads not just the cache page but hits the TB tables, logs, and all sorts of other data not needed to log a cache?

 

 

I passed this suggestion on to the King of Greasemonkey scripts as a good idea. (I even gave you credit for the idea)

 

He has made a Greasemonkey script for those who use Firefox. Available at http://gmscripts.locusprime.net/Seek_Logging.html

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Why not program an "expert mode" and allow in-the-know users skip steps in logging? Wouldn't it be trivial to program a "Log Me" button next to a cache listing on the Nearest Cache page? Wouldn't that skip a page that loads not just the cache page but hits the TB tables, logs, and all sorts of other data not needed to log a cache?

 

 

I passed this suggestion on to the King of Greasemonkey scripts as a good idea. (I even gave you credit for the idea)

 

He has made a Greasemonkey script for those who use Firefox. Available at http://gmscripts.locusprime.net/Seek_Logging.html

 

How is this any better than using the "Log" Custom URL feature of GSAK - or is it just different?

 

Using that I come into GSAK, mark the caches I found, then right click on a cache, click CUstom URL, then Click "Log" and it takes me right to the log page for that cache.

 

SQ

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If this were Google, where growth may be more predictable and the heaviest load is probably on weekdays and money is no object, we would expect the new hardware to be in place well before it is needed.

In no way do I mean to complain about this website; whether others could or could not do it better is pretty much irrelevant. However, I do want to point out that the growth of users and traffic for this website has been extremely predictable. Indeed, there is a whole thread dedicated to showing how predictable the growth has been. If the performance problems have come as a surprise to TPTB, it's not because they haven't been able to forecast the traffic.

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Why not program an "expert mode" and allow in-the-know users skip steps in logging? Wouldn't it be trivial to program a "Log Me" button next to a cache listing on the Nearest Cache page? Wouldn't that skip a page that loads not just the cache page but hits the TB tables, logs, and all sorts of other data not needed to log a cache?

 

 

I passed this suggestion on to the King of Greasemonkey scripts as a good idea. (I even gave you credit for the idea)

 

He has made a Greasemonkey script for those who use Firefox. Available at http://gmscripts.locusprime.net/Seek_Logging.html

 

How is this any better than using the "Log" Custom URL feature of GSAK - or is it just different?

 

Using that I come into GSAK, mark the caches I found, then right click on a cache, click CUstom URL, then Click "Log" and it takes me right to the log page for that cache.

 

SQ

 

I think this is pretty much the same thing, click and go directly to the logging page. I've installed it and it works fabulously as all of his scripts do. Thanks, Prime Suspect! Thanks, webscouter, for bringing it to his attention.

 

The thing is, while both solutions help the individual user get their caches logged, neither solution will make much of a dent in the problem as they are not in front of the user base as a whole. If it were, then it might start helping because then there would be a significant drop in un-necessary clicks.

 

The next problem would be getting folks aware of the solution and start using it. One way to do that would be if the servers could determine a maximum load and swap out a file. There could be a style sheet that makes the icon for going to the logging page much larger and more noticable. Swap that CSS when load is high and swap it back when low. Place a hover pop up stating what the icon is for similar to "Click to log this cache. Shift-click to leave this window open and open another to log." This would prompt folks to open another window so they don't have to wait for the list to reload.

 

Just like the GSAK and GM solutions, it would reduce the user's wait and thus frustration. In the meantime, I have both solutions at my disposal.

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