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Letterbox Hybrids


sTeamTraen

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OK, before I start, I'll admit that:

- Yes, I know I don't have to go for a cache; I can ignore it

- Different people play the game different ways

 

Right, with that out of the way: does anyone else feel that Letterbox Hybrids aren't geocaching?

 

As far as I can see, the requirements for a letterbox (in the letterboxing game) are more or less a strict superset of the requirements for a geocache. That is, almost any of the thousand and thousands of letterboxes out there, could be listed as a letterbox hybrid geocache - all you need is (the requirements for a cache) plus (a custom rubber stamp).

 

So, what value does a letterbox hybrid bring to our game? In most cases it leaves us at the mercy of whoever writes the descriptions. If I wanted to go letterboxing, I'd go letterboxing.

 

I would have no problem if a hybrid were defined as "a letterbox which you can also find at this set of GPS coordinates". I need my GPSr for that, so it's geocaching. But take a look at this letterbox hybrid: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...67-a60bdd85b5be

It's 5/5 for difficulty and terrain, can only be done at night, and it explicitly says that you only need a GPSr to find the car park - which means you could also print out the Mapquest map. (The fact that it's been placed in France with a listing written only in German, is a secondary point, but I'll admit it doesn't make me and more kindly disposed towards this cache!)

 

As a minimum, could there be some guidelines that a letterbox hybrid should also appear - perhaps for some weeks before being listed at geocaching.com - on one or more popular letterboxing sites? I don't think there's a serious danger that letterboxes will overwhelm "GPSr required" caches, but it annoys me that the site lists items which have no GPS content whatsoever.

 

Thanks for listening to my rant!

Nick

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A letterbox hybrid cache still must meet the requirements for a geocache, including but not limited to the requirement that some GPS usage must be involved as an integral element of the hunt. From the Geocache Listing Guidelines for this cache type:

 

Letterbox Hybrid

 

Letterboxing is another form of treasure hunting that uses clues to direct hunters to a hidden container. Each letterbox contains a stamp which is the signature for that box. Most letterboxers have their own personal stamps and personal logbooks. They stamp the letterbox logbook with their personal stamp, and use the stamp contained in the letterbox to “sign” their personal logbook.

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches and therefore must contain a logbook. They must be referenced by latitude and longitude, not just clues. Whether or not the letterbox hybrid contains trade items is up to the owner. In most cases personal stamp and personal logbook are not necessary to be a seeker of a letterbox hybrid.

 

Thus, the distinguishing feature of this cache type is the presence of a letterboxing stamp and pad. At the time the cache type was established, it was believed that this would be the best way to accommodate letterboxes on the site, given that thousands of them were already in existence.

 

But perhaps Geocaching.com has a new solution to the letterboxing issue up its sleeve.... :lol:

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They must be referenced by latitude and longitude, not just clues.

 

Well, the two hybrids that I've found, plus the one I mentioned above, only mention latitude and longitude as a way of getting to the car park. I don't know if that counts - it certainly doesn't seem to match the spirit. Perhaps a note of reminder to the reviewers is required?

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There are people that simply find caches using maps. I've done a few night caches which use firetacks, too, and the GPS is not even useful.

 

As far as the letterbox thing, it isn't that popular in our area, so I always thought of it as kind of vestigial like virtuals, locationless and webcams.

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As far as the letterbox thing, it isn't that popular in our area, so I always thought of it as kind of vestigial like virtuals, locationless and webcams.

 

Except those have been grandfathered... :lol:

 

I'll freely admit that the principal cause of my indignation here is that someone has placed a really tough letterbox hybrid within the area I like to keep "clear". So yes, I could put it on my ignore list, and check every couple of months to see if it's been archived yet.

 

But if the guideline requires GPS involvement, surely the reviewer should insist on more than just the coordinates for the car park - after all, without at least one coordinate you can't even get past the listing form.

 

PS: A night cache using only firetacks - must be a lot of firetacks. Round here, night caches tend to be multis, and you get one reflector per stage to tell you you're getting warm!

Edited by sTeamTraen
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I'll freely admit that the principal cause of my indignation here is that someone has placed a really tough letterbox hybrid within the area I like to keep "clear".

 

If I was french I'd rather be surprised about the lack of political sensitivity of the cache owners and the German reviewer, but that's - as you pointed out, Nick - another story. :lol:

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A Letterbox Hybrid SHOULD involve clues to determine its location. If it was all done by Lat-Long then it would be a Multi.

 

Until very recently I owned a Letterbox Hybrid, and it was set up that way to have people tour a location via a different format.... and people seemed to really enjoy that aspect as it was unique in our area.

Quasy's Passport to Niagara

 

 

I for one do not like when a "Traditional Cache" gets listed as a Letterbox Hybrid based SOLELY on the fact that there is a stamp in it... there is more to LB's than a stamp.

 

Firetack caches as Letterbox instead of Multi... great idea! I am planning a Firetack cache for this summer... I just assumed Multi or Puzzle (used too often in my opinion).

 

I just find when I look at most Letterbox Hybrids... the person placing it didn't make the effort to make it interesting. They wanted the unique icon, but didn't want to make a unique cache to go with it.

 

:lol: The Blue Quasar

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As a minimum, could there be some guidelines that a letterbox hybrid should also appear - perhaps for some weeks before being listed at geocaching.com - on one or more popular letterboxing sites? I don't think there's a serious danger that letterboxes will overwhelm "GPSr required" caches, but it annoys me that the site lists items which have no GPS content whatsoever.

So this hybrid is listed soley on geocaching.com?? :lol:

(That wouldn't make must sense since unless LOTS of letterboxers watched this site. Of course since letterboxing seems less centerlized than geocaching, it might be hard to know where else the info for the Letterbox could be.)

 

Letterbox hybrids are a mixture of letterbox and geocache. They should contain a signature stamp that stays with the box, and they must conform to the guidelines for traditional caches and therefore must contain a logbook. They must be referenced by latitude and longitude, not just clues.

Ok, so the question is how do the reviewers apply this? Is lat/long for the closest parking ok? or what about just the first stage and then you have you use clues?

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Amen RK! This hybrid is listed both on Geocaching.com and letterboxing.org. It has a full description in both formats, and is findable either way. I always thought that listing hybrids was a great way to introduce geocachers to letterboxing and vice cersa. And remember- letterboxing has been around far longer. It is kind of fun to see how they did it in the old days, and also nice that it is still in practice. I even made myself a stamp, and carry it in my cache bag.

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We really enjoy letterbox hybrids here. I have placed several myself including my GEST series of 6 Letterboxes. The coords take you to a point on the trail. And from there you have to leave the trail in a perpendicular direction to find the cache. As an added feature I marked the point on the trail where you leave and which side it's on with a piece of yarn hanging on a tree and the caches are all within 20 meters of the trail. So far everyone that has done it has really enjoyed the series.

 

To me a true letterbox hybrid would have the posted coords take you to a certain location and then from there you have to follow a set of clues in order to find the cache.

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As a minimum, could there be some guidelines that a letterbox hybrid should also appear - perhaps for some weeks before being listed at geocaching.com - on one or more popular letterboxing sites? I don't think there's a serious danger that letterboxes will overwhelm "GPSr required" caches, but it annoys me that the site lists items which have no GPS content whatsoever.

So this hybrid is listed soley on geocaching.com?? :D

(That wouldn't make must sense since unless LOTS of letterboxers watched this site. Of course since letterboxing seems less centerlized than geocaching, it might be hard to know where else the info for the Letterbox could be.)

 

AFAIK, yes, it's only on geocaching.com (but I could be totally wrong; maybe it's listed on an "extreme letterboxing" site too; I'm open to correction).

 

What I think has happened is that a well-known placer of "extreme" caches built this one for some buddies, and since he had a good idea for a puzzle (using maps etc), he decided to list it as a hybrid. I can't believe that a search party of four or five of the local hardcore cachers formed itself spontaneously within 12 hours of the cache being listed, without some prior warning. So it seems like the cache has been placed more as a sort of mini-event.

 

I'm interested to see the discussion here about how much GPS content there should be for a hybrid. The one mentioned by DomeDwellers seems to meet the spirit of the description more than "Passport to Niagara", for example (which, btw, I found, and thoroughly enjoyed!!).

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Sorry. I missed the point. No, letterboxing hybrids will remain on the site. As indicated before a letterboxing hybrid is merely a geocache that has a stamp and a logbook instead of tradable items. It's a way for people to understand not to, for example, take the stamp.

 

The other project is more letterboxer centric.

Edited by Jeremy
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We recently placed a letterbox hybrid. Maybe I had the wrong idea about how they are supposed to be set up, but the way we did it was this:

  • The page on geocaching.com was a regular cache-type page, with coordinates listed for parking and for the cache, and other information that might be of interest to cachers.
  • We created another page on letterboxing.org for the same hybrid, but its contents were totally different; the description of how to find the hybrid were all letterbox-style instructions.
  • The hybrid has two separate containers hidden together -- an ammo can with a cache log and a bunch of trade items, and a Lock&Lock with a stamp, inkpad, and letterbox logbook. Both are labeled.
  • Each page has a link to the other, and invites finders to sign both logbooks. On the cache page, newbies to letterboxing are told that the stamp & inkpad are not trade items; on the letterbox page, newbies to caching are told about the custom of trading trinkets but are advised not to take anything with a metal dog tag, since those are specially tracked items.

The hybrid can be found solely with a GPS, or solely by following the letterbox clues. Geocachers who have never heard of letterboxing and who have no interest in it can find it just like a regular cache; letterboxers without a GPS can find it just with the letterbox page instructions. Or if you're a belt-and-suspenders type of person, you can use both. (Because of this, we didn't list any hints on the cache page -- we said if you want explicit instructions, see the letterboxing page.)

 

As you can guess, it was twice as much work to set up as any regular cache! :rolleyes: But I really enjoyed setting it up, and will probably do more hybrids.

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Sorry. I missed the point. No, letterboxing hybrids will remain on the site. As indicated before a letterboxing hybrid is merely a geocache that has a stamp and a logbook instead of tradable items. It's a way for people to understand not to, for example, take the stamp.

 

The other project is more letterboxer centric.

 

HMM...the one Letterbox Hybrid I found had tradeable items in addition to the stamp, etc. (the stamp/letterboxing items did have a note saying not to take them though)

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The intent was to inform folks not to take the stamp (and the alternative way to find the letterbox without a GPS)

 

Jeremy, thanks for your input.

 

Can you confirm that a 5/5, night-time only, letterbox hybrid, whose listing on geocaching.com contains no GPS information other than the coordinates of the car park, probably does not meet the guidelines?

 

Thanks

Nick

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So, what value does a letterbox hybrid bring to our game?
I've been working with a land owner (New England Forestry Foundation) that has been actively seeking geocachers to help them hide caches in their forests. One thing they would like is for these caches to be letterbox hybrids.

 

Why? I really don't know, I can only guess that they want their caches to be publicized on more than one site. But what I do know is that when a landowner actively seeks out cachers, I want to help them.

 

I've previously found 2 hybrids, cut my own stamp after the first. I think it is kinda cool. I really am not sure how to write the clues for the letterbox I have to set up however, I'm faced with an almost featureless forest!

 

Paul

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I recently helped NEFF with the hybrid letterbox for their forest in Littleton, MA. The letterbox style clues are usually pretty basic and use trail names/colors, landmarks, simple compass directions, and sometimes steps/paces. This one is fairly representative:

http://www.letterboxing.org/BoxView.php?bo...oxname=Oak_Hill

(although having a photo in with the clues is a little unusual...)

 

Choi

one of the LbNA webmasters

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The letterbox style clues are usually pretty basic and use trail names/colors, landmarks, simple compass directions, and sometimes steps/paces.
You have trails? I'd love to have trails... I have an abandoned county road going through the forest, a cool rock formation, and even cooler set if ruins but that's about it. I need to go exploring some more, see what I can find. But there are no trail markers since there aren't even trails!

 

Hey, it will be a fun challenge.

 

Paul

 

PS: And don't get me started on the east forest, after driving around a bit I think I found an entrance... at the end of rutted dirt road about a mile long. What fun!

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Jeremy, thanks for your input.

 

Can you confirm that a 5/5, night-time only, letterbox hybrid, whose listing on geocaching.com contains no GPS information other than the coordinates of the car park, probably does not meet the guidelines?

 

Thanks

Nick

 

I'd have to know the exact situation, but my thought is if you can arrive at that location without ever using a GPS unit then it defeats the purpose of being a geocaching hybrid letterbox.

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You have trails? I'd love to have trails... I have an abandoned county road going through the forest, a cool rock formation, and even cooler set if ruins but that's about it. I need to go exploring some more, see what I can find. But there are no trail markers since there aren't even trails!

 

Ouch. It sounds like you have your work cut out for you then.

 

Choi

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I'd have to know the exact situation, but my thought is if you can arrive at that location without ever using a GPS unit then it defeats the purpose of being a geocaching hybrid letterbox.

 

First, you can arrive at the majority of caches without using a GPS-unit.

Second, as letterbox hybrids are regarded, at least the German reviewers have posted comments to

German-speaking geocaching fora informing the cachers that for letterbox hybrids it suffices that they include a

stamp. The caches do not need to be traditional caches and can be multi-caches as well and may also contain puzzles. They do not even require that coordinates for the final cache are given that can be used for GPS-units.

 

That means that caches that start at given coordinates and then continue with letterbox-style clues belong to the type of caches that are described as acceptable letterbox hybrid caches to German-speaking geocachers in fora which include this place here. The cache which started this discussion has been hidden by a German cacher and reviewed by a German reviewer. It is quite normal that if the hider takes into account what the reviewers post about the interpretation of the guidelines, that the hidden caches will be accepted. Everything else would be very unfair from my point of view.

 

Moreover, I had a discussion with Keystone a while ago and he confirmed that the existence of a stamp is the only requirement for a letterbox hybrid (from the formal point of view - of course it cannot be hidden at places where caches are not allowed). The listing at a letterbox site is definitely not a requirement.

 

Neither can the forced usage of a GPS-unit be a requirement as for example most traditionals in cities can be found without a GPS even by people who are not all experienced in orienteering and usage of maps, compasses etc.

 

Cezanne

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So, what value does a letterbox hybrid bring to our game?

 

It gives much more freedom to implement also cache concepts where the GPS does not play an essential role in the way the cache is designed by the hider.

 

In most cases it leaves us at the mercy of whoever writes the descriptions.

 

That's true for any sort of cache.

 

If I wanted to go letterboxing, I'd go letterboxing.

 

Well, what about geocachers who like to play with letterbox-type hints and other sorts of orienteering-related tasks where coordinates do not play the key role and combine this with the coordinate-based approaches (where sometimes one of the two gets more stress than the other)? Actually, I do not want to use five different sites for my activities which I all regard as geocaching related. I am not interested into personal stamps etc and I like the habit of writing informative online logs which is typical for geocaching and is not typical for activities like letterboxing, cistes etc

 

You are PM - you can easily put all letterbox hybrids in your area on your ignore list - their number is very small.

 

As a minimum, could there be some guidelines that a letterbox hybrid should also appear - perhaps for some weeks before being listed at geocaching.com - on one or more popular letterboxing sites?

 

There exists no such site for example for my country Austria.

Moreover, personally I would not be that much interested to list a geocache as letterbox as well even if a letterboxing community existed in Austria - one of the reasons being the security of TBs and geocoins.

The situation in the US where letterboxing is a popular activity is different to countries where letterboxing does not exist at all.

 

I don't think there's a serious danger that letterboxes will overwhelm "GPSr required" caches, but it annoys me that the site lists items which have no GPS content whatsoever.

 

I bet that most caches you have found can be found without a GPS as well. So "GPSr required" caches do hardly exist. Where is the difference between a cache where the coordinates point to a parking area and a cache where the coordinates point to a famous building and the description/or the hint tells you where to find the cache (this is quite typical for easy urban traditionals)? I bet that it is often much simpler for local people and even for tourists to find the famous building without a GPS than to find a parking area.

 

As soon as you try to distinguish between places where GPS-usage is absolutely necessary and where not, you will run up into troubles soon and will ruin many nice cache concepts. (The caches that will remain untouched are often caches which do not belong to the nicest caches as they are hidden in the middle of nowhere with no characteristic points nearby).

 

Cezanne

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Moreover, I had a discussion with Keystone a while ago and he confirmed that the existence of a stamp is the only requirement for a letterbox hybrid (from the formal point of view - of course it cannot be hidden at places where caches are not allowed). The listing at a letterbox site is definitely not a requirement.

Jeremy's statement is 100% correct, so please don't cite me as contrary authority. While it is true that the letterbox stamp, not a cross-listing, is the single distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache, they still must meet the other requirements for a geocache. That means that GPS use must be an *option* for an integral part of the hunt. Whether the geocacher chooses to use a GPS is up to them.

 

There is no other way to read the statement in the guidelines which says that letterbox hybrids must be referenced by latitude and longitude, not just clues.

 

All that aside, I'm content to wait patiently until the new letterboxing solution is up and running.

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Moreover, I had a discussion with Keystone a while ago and he confirmed that the existence of a stamp is the only requirement for a letterbox hybrid (from the formal point of view - of course it cannot be hidden at places where caches are not allowed). The listing at a letterbox site is definitely not a requirement.

Jeremy's statement is 100% correct, so please don't cite me as contrary authority. While it is true that the letterbox stamp, not a cross-listing, is the single distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache, they still must meet the other requirements for a geocache. That means that GPS use must be an *option* for an integral part of the hunt. Whether the geocacher chooses to use a GPS is up to them.

 

There is no other way to read the statement in the guidelines which says that letterbox hybrids must be referenced by latitude and longitude, not just clues.

 

All that aside, I'm content to wait patiently until the new letterboxing solution is up and running.

 

Just out of curiousity, is there a planned launch date for the letterboxer.com site?

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Moreover, I had a discussion with Keystone a while ago and he confirmed that the existence of a stamp is the only requirement for a letterbox hybrid (from the formal point of view - of course it cannot be hidden at places where caches are not allowed). The listing at a letterbox site is definitely not a requirement.

Jeremy's statement is 100% correct, so please don't cite me as contrary authority.

 

I used the reference to you as contrary authority to the the contribution of the OP who wants to require that letterbox hybrids are also listed at letterbox sites. Another aspect that I wanted to point out, but apparently failed to do is that a letterbox hybrid need not be based on letterboxing clues at all (this was something I originally thought to be a requirement and I guess many people make this mistake). I am sorry for not having been clear enough.

 

While it is true that the letterbox stamp, not a cross-listing, is the single distinguishing feature of a letterbox hybrid cache, they still must meet the other requirements for a geocache. That means that GPS use must be an *option* for an integral part of the hunt. Whether the geocacher chooses to use a GPS is up to them.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. The cache that started the discussion is like many other night caches in Germany.

You start at some point which you can find with your GPS and then more or less follow reflectors.

Since this type of caches is up to now accepted on a routine basis, a change of policy would result if such caches will not any longer be accepted and this change would effect all types of caches, not only letterbox hybrids.

 

Note that you write above " .... the other requirements of a *geocache*". Offset caches, multi caches, puzzle caches are also geocaches while you seem to have in mind only traditional caches (maybe because this is the predominant cache type in the US where well above 80% of the caches are traditionals while in the area where I live at most 30% of all caches are traditional caches - in some areas even considerably less).

 

There is no other way to read the statement in the guidelines which says that letterbox hybrids must be referenced by latitude and longitude, not just clues.

 

Every hunt has a starting point. In the case of a traditional cache the starting point is already the destination.

You always can use your GPS to reach the starting point. As you wrote above it is just an *option*. So we do not care about whether there exist other methods to reach the starting point.

 

Your interpretation is only correct if you restrict letterbox hybrids to be traditional caches and exclude multi caches and mystery caches. Several reviewers of gc.com confirmed that a letterbox hybrid can be a multi cache as well. In that case, it is, however, not any longer true that a letterbox hybrid must be referenced by coordinates if you mean the coordinates of the final hideout as this requirement does not exist for the other caches types as well (except single stage caches). Caches of the type: Go to coords X/Y, then go A steps in direction B, turn left, ...... are caches that perfectly meet the guidelines.

Consequently, a letterbox hybrid can use the same type of method.

The requirement of coordinates just implies that at least once in the cache coordinates have to appear, this can be the coordinates of the starting point.

 

As I have explained already in previous discussions, it will not be possible at all to classify starting points into two categories - one where some people feel that a GPS is not necessary and the others where they feel it is necessary. Otherwise, you will end up in rejecting also traditional caches at the Eiffel tower and many other well-known objects which are even more easy to find than a certain parking lot (at least in the areas I know of).

 

In case you intend to finally end up with just traditional caches and do not allow any longer other cache types, it would be fair to let us know. I am not interested at all how a potential letterboxing site operated by Groundspeak will look like, as I am not interested into letterboxing per se - I am only interested into a

definition of geocaching which is as wide as possible to integrate as many of the nice ideas my fellow cachers have.

 

 

Cezanne

Edited by cezanne
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I am a letterboxer with 77 letterboxes planted, one of which I also listed as a GeoCache. I chose to list it as a cache because Belgium does not have its own letterboxing site. The approver would not let me include any clues whatsoever. He was either misinterpreting the Hybrid guidelines or was lost in translation, but in order to get it approved I had to list the exact GPS coordinates.

 

I think I may retire the box because the local 'cachers don't understand letterboxing (or again, lost in translation) and keep leaving trinkets in the box, despite my explicit directions otherwise.

 

The reason I exclude trinkets is because someone may trade for the stamp by mistake.

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All that aside, I'm content to wait patiently until the new letterboxing solution is up and running.

 

Solution? That implies there is a problem this will be trying to address. What is the problem?

 

There are a couple major letterboxing sites I know of (www.letterboxing.org and www.atlasquest.com) that already have many (most?) of the letterboxes out there. Is the intent that the new letterboxing solution will be a brand new listing site, or will existing boxes be encouraged to "move over"?

 

The two current sites I list are not as polished as geocaching.com, and don't seem to have the community that geocaching gets from the online logs. Should be interesting to watch.

 

(I've only done a couple letterboxes myself from those sites)

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There are a couple major letterboxing sites I know of (www.letterboxing.org and www.atlasquest.com)...

 

The two current sites I list are not as polished as geocaching.com, and don't seem to have the community that geocaching gets from the online logs. Should be interesting to watch.

 

 

Most of my recent hides have been letterboxes. I quite enjoy the whole process, from creating the stamp to working out the directions. I still really enjoy regular geocaches but I like the creative process of creating a stamp and checking the logbook for the finder's stamped image, drawing or sticker. Most of my letterboxes are posted on all 3 sites (AQ, lb.org and gc.com). What I especially like about the gc.com site is the online logs which the other sites lack. I believe logs play an important role - they inspire, inform, and entertain. They create a sense of community. They allow finders to post information about the many aspects of the hunt - parking areas, scenic locations, the condition of the trails, poison ivy, private property and if a box may be missing or require maintenance. I am definitely curious about the new letterboxing site.

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I believe logs play an important role - they inspire, inform, and entertain. They create a sense of community. They allow finders to post information about the many aspects of the hunt - parking areas, scenic locations, the condition of the trails, poison ivy, private property and if a box may be missing or require maintenance.

 

Logs also create problems. They can contain spoilers and details of questionable activity.

 

What's more important having logs or not? Well, I don't know for sure, but logs are the primary mechanism to gather "evidence" of questionable activities and were used to try to shove legislation down the throats of South Carolinians. The bill includes letterboxes, but there was nothing presented that showed letterboxes were a problem.

 

Additionally, considering many times logs are the merest of excuses to check off a cache from the Nearest List, I'd think the system should be re-thought. The letterboxers do, in fact, have a few more years to hammer out a hobby, I'd say they're doing it right. Why change now? A typical answer would be "to evolve." I'd counter "into an AOL-ized version?" No, thanks. Letterboxing is rich in history and tradition. Leave it where it belongs and let the modern hobby of geocaching be what it is.

 

Speaking of which, I've got some things I need to do.

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I am a letterboxer with 77 letterboxes planted, one of which I also listed as a GeoCache. I chose to list it as a cache because Belgium does not have its own letterboxing site. The approver would not let me include any clues whatsoever. He was either misinterpreting the Hybrid guidelines or was lost in translation, but in order to get it approved I had to list the exact GPS coordinates.

 

I think the reviewer got it right. I think some people are confused as to what a letterbox hybrid is. A letterbox hybrid is a geocache AND a letterbox, not a geocache that is found LIKE a letterbox.

 

A letterbox hybrid must be referenced by coordinates. It will also contain a stamp and probably be cross listed on a letterbox site. Crosslisting is not a requirement, but if its not cross listed then what's the point?.

 

A cache that uses a GPS to bring you to a certain spot (parking lot, flagpole, boulder, etc...) then gives clues/instructions on how to get to the cache from that point (e.g. walk 50 paces north) is an offset/multi cache, not a letterbox hybrid.

Edited by briansnat
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...What's more important having logs or not? Well, I don't know for sure, but logs are the primary mechanism to gather "evidence" of questionable activities and were used to try to shove legislation down the throats of South Carolinians. The bill includes letterboxes, but there was nothing presented that showed letterboxes were a problem.

...

Must your response to all threads come back to the SC issue? Seriously.

 

...A cache that uses a GPS to bring you to a certain spot (parking lot, flagpole, boulder, etc...) then gives clues/instructions on how to get to the cache from that point (e.g. walk 50 paces north) is an offset/multi cache, not a letterbox hybrid.

I disagree. A cache like you describe would certainly be in the spirit of letterboxes. I do agree that the overlap makes things less tidy then we would like.

Edited by sbell111
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I think the reviewer got it right. I think some people are confused as to what a letterbox hybrid is. A letterbox hybrid is a geocache AND a letterbox, not a geocache that is found LIKE a letterbox.

 

Right on the noggin. A letterboxer.com web site, on the other hand, would be a letterboxing site (meaning no coordinates, no GPS, etc.) So don't expect hybrids to go anywhere because they accomplish three goals:

 

1. Make people aware not to take the stamp and to introduce folks to a sister activity. (Just a mention to those who think otherwise, Geocaching did not spawn from letterboxing but was a completely different concept created without prior knowledge of letterboxing.)

 

2. Allow an alternate method for finding a geocache without a GPS receiver, and...

 

3. Provide a searching method for some letterboxes that have a starting coordinate.

 

So again, my reference to letterboxer.com was not in any way indicating that letterbox hybrids will move to another site. Once we complete the site you'll see that we're going back to letterboxing's roots with the letterboxer.com web site. Old school style yo.

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Jeremy, thanks for your interest... I don't know if you've seen the cache I mentioned in the OP, or if you have enough German to follow it, but AFAIK:

 

- There is no GPS involvement apart from finding the car park

- It was created as an adventure cache specifically for a small group of finders (a kind of "mini-event"), all of whom are geocachers and none of whom are regular letterboxers

- It's a letterbox only to the extent that it has a stamp in it

 

My impression is that the owner had a cool idea for an adventure puzzle, but since it involves reading maps rather than GPS coordinates, he decided to list it as a letterbox hybrid. I guess he could have listed it as a mystery cache since in that case very few rules about GPS involvement to solve the puzzle seem to apply...

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You appear to be bringing up two separate issues. First, does the cache meet the guidelines. Second, if it meets the general guidelines, should it be posted as a letterbox-hybrid.

 

There is some debate about the first part. I suspect the answer is that the coords of the parking lot are not enough. Others will disagree.

 

I think its clear that if it meets the guidelines to be listed, letterbox-hybrid is the correct cache type.

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Hmmmm....

 

Wasn't it about this time last year that one of the letterboxing sites started a rumor that they had been purchased by Jeremy?

 

My guess is that letterboxer.com could very well have its "debut" in about 48 hrs.

 

Payback time, perhaps? :D

I thought it was two years ago, 2004.

 

Considering the hissy fit (there is no other way to describe it) that our esteemed site owner threw then, I would doubt that a return April Fools joke is coming. The "dish it out but can't take it" abuse would be even heavier than the grief he took originally.

 

The open niche in letterboxing sites is for one that allows online logging with public comments, like geocaching.com provides. And maybe a search function using actual maps, for those owners willing to offer a general location. Coincedentally, that matches the programming strengths that Jeremy has shown here on gc.com, so I'm going to presume that he's headed in this direction. Presuming he DOES NOT provide a way for a finder or third party to bypass a placer's wish to stay off the database, I see no harm in the new site and I'll probably crosslist any non-mysteries that I plant or adopt.

 

Here's a benefit that Jeremy might consider for the letterboxer site. If you list on letterboxer.com and privately provide accurate coords (or someone else provides coords) to the site, then you get a buffer (50 or 100 feet would be fine, all 528 feet is overkill in this circumstance) from new caches, enforced by gc.com volunteers as an additional guideline. Letterboxers would need to stay away from caches too, something most letterboxers would love to do anyway. Exceptions for existing letterboxes that owners choose to crosslist would need to be allowed. There has been enough location poaching (or at least stories about location poaching) that this could be a useful benefit to some.

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- It was created as an adventure cache specifically for a small group of finders (a kind of "mini-event"),

 

Most 5*/5* caches have the property that only few cachers are able to visit the cache. That's normal.

 

 

all of whom are geocachers and none of whom are regular letterboxers

 

Where is the problem? Letterbox hybrids need not direct themselves to letterboxers. It is an option, but not mandatory.

 

- It's a letterbox only to the extent that it has a stamp in it

 

It's a letterbox hybrid, not a classical letterbox - so that's ok.

 

I guess he could have listed it as a mystery cache since in that case very few rules about GPS involvement to solve the puzzle seem to apply...

 

Actually, there the same rules apply as for other cache types. In my opinion it is up to the hider to choose the cache type as long as it meets the guidelines. It makes no sense whatsoever to impose stricter rules for the GPS-involvement for letterbox hybrids than for mystery caches. That's close to being absurd from my point of view.

 

As the GPS-involvement is regarded, I feel that a cache that works with offsets of the type distance/bearing

always offers the option to find the cache with a GPS. A stricter requirement would eliminate among others almost all urban traditionals (good maps are sufficient to identify the location) and all offset caches which start at a well identifiable object and send you then to a point at distance x and bearing y from the starting point. Do you really want to eliminate these caches? And almost all caves caches, caches inside of buildings etc as well?

 

Some of the aspects you come up with have nothing to do with the cache type, but just with the fact that you do not like to have this cache showing up on your nearest search (unless you choose to ignore it).

 

 

Cezanne

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...A cache that uses a GPS to bring you to a certain spot (parking lot, flagpole, boulder, etc...) then gives clues/instructions on how to get to the cache from that point (e.g. walk 50 paces north) is an offset/multi cache, not a letterbox hybrid.

I disagree. A cache like you describe would certainly be in the spirit of letterboxes. I do agree that the overlap makes things less tidy then we would like.

 

Brian's right though. :grin:

 

Letterbox hybrid is a traditional cache with a letterbox stamp in it. The cache page can have clues on how to get there from a particular spot but the coords would be listed as the actual container.

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Letterbox hybrid is a traditional cache with a letterbox stamp in it. The cache page can have clues on how to get there from a particular spot but the coords would be listed as the actual container.
How does one make a letterboxing hybrid that is also a multi then?

 

I'm in the position of being requested by the landowner to but a letterbox on their land. They would like to show off some key features, both of which are unsuitable for a cache (one is a muggle hangout, the other is an archeological site. I multi/letterbox is perfect but not an available option.

 

I've placed a traditional and I'll leave waypoints for the 2 features, but that is hardly the same.

 

Paul

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Brian's right though. :grin:

 

Letterbox hybrid is a traditional cache with a letterbox stamp in it. The cache page can have clues on how to get there from a particular spot but the coords would be listed as the actual container.

Again, I disagree because one of the basic things about a letterbox is that clues are needed to find it. (The other thing being the stamp, of course.) Therefore, a multi is much more in the spirit of letterboxing. Obviosuly, I'm still not really happy about the overlap between the two cache types, but I don't have to be. It would be nice if 'letterbox' was an attribute, instead of a cache type, but it's not.

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In defense of the type, attributes weren't around before letterboxing hybrids. But I can certainly see how it could be an attribute for caches so people understand to use the stamp and not take it! Good idea actually.

I thought about the history when I typed my response, I just didn't include it. I should have fleshed out my thoughts better.

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Again, I disagree because one of the basic things about a letterbox is that clues are needed to find it.

While not popular among "pure" letterboxers, coordinates are just another form of clues. If provided, you can use coordinates to find a letterbox, just like you use them to find a geocache. I include the letterbox hybrids in my letterbox F-count.

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