To Police Or Not To Police

[+TotemLake]

Some folks think I'm off base but I see a trend where people are posting their concerns on caches without due diligence. That due diligence being not only read the guidelines, but read the cache page, check the date and maybe a quick note to the owner about issues you might have over the cache and/or it's location. Instead, the post is put out there regarding some level of illegal placement, including but not all inclusive, access by tresspass, or disregard to local agency rules upon cache placement.

 

Access is usually only attempted from one direction and then complained here when it's assumed tresspass is eminent and there is no other way in without checking with the owner to see if there is a legal way in.

 

The type of cache gets complained about without checking to see how old it is and a quick note to the owner to see if it was grandfathered.

 

Placement is complained about without checking to see if it is an existing grandfathered or virtual cache.

 

Of course, there is the blanket statement that sometimes cache coordinates and types of caches are changed after cache reviewer approval. That takes care of a small percentage.

 

I'm not one to quell a concern and believe legitimate concerns should be aired. I'm talking about due diligence. Has the seeker done everything at their disposal to determine the legitimacy of the concern before opening it for debate here? I'm beginning to think not.

 

Am I seeing a trend on the need to police others without due diligance or am I off base?

 

edited for typos and grammar

Edited March 15, 2006 by TotemLake

[+ibycus]

I agree with you, in most cases, there needs to be some research gone in to it *before* bringing it out here. Most of the time, a day or two (or even a week), isn't going to matter.

 

For me, #1 thing to do is bring it up with the cache owner, either through a note on the cache page, or in a private e-mail (whatever floats your boat). If their explanation isn't satisfactory, then its something for the reviewer to deal with.

 

The only time I think bringing it up here would be appropriate is if there is some debate over the cache, something which might have broader ramifications than just the one cache in question (although what they might be, I have no idea).

 

Personally I know of several caches which violate the guidelines. I'm not about to 'report' them though. Why? Because I know the spirit in which the caches were placed, and I don't think the guidelines being violated paint geocaching in a bad image. There are many 528' rule violations, due to lack of knowledge on the reviewer's part, there is one, that is one of my personal favorites, that really is a commercial cache (although not benefiting the owner of the cache in any way shape or form). None of these things paint us in a bad light, so personally I'm content to let them stand unchallenged.

[bogleman]

I can see where you are coming from. If I have an issue with a cache I would keep it between myself and the owner. I enjoy reading through the logs and you can see how the cache has faired. I have never really jumped from one cache to the next I just pick and choose.

 

I guess in my area I have yet to find a cache to formally complain about other than not being able to find it. I will chime in every now then here about a general cache in question but I will never attempt to find it to really see what the issue is with my own eyes.

 

I like to say that I take pride in my cache hides and I do my best to think about all the angles before it goes public. Some folks don't seem to care either way, anyway I look at it is I am still having fun.

 

I don't see any need to make my bad feelings known to the public if I have a bad experience with a cache or it does not suit my needs or beliefs.

[+Team Tigger International]

We had a guy post a note about inappropriate location and quote guidelines on a micro of ours. It was in a tree in a public park near a war memorial. His problem was he couldn't find it, but he's always been good at finding guidelines to quote (other past exchanges with him).

If I have an issue with a cache, I'll generally email the owner. If it appears to be an issue that clearly poses a safety hazard, then yes I'll post a note.

We did bring up 2 virtual caches in the forums that we wondered why they'd been listed. This was after they'd made virtuals almost impossible and these seemed fail to lack any real 'wow' factor. One was a tree in a park that had a sprinkler over it to create ice (tree was removed last spring so it was only around for 1 winter) and the other was an old ship (formerly used reach an amusement park) located on private property (industial area) that the owner advised reaching by boat (land access would be tresspassing). This one could be solved online even if you had no idea what it was.

 

Wulf

[Trinity's Crew]

I don't see anything wrong with posting concerns here. In many cases it allows people point out to the OP why the cache isn't in violation, which averts potential bad blood between the finder and the owner.

[+rowanf]

Some folks think I'm off base but I see a trend where people are posting their concerns on caches without due diligence. That due diligence being not only read the guidelines, but read the cache page, check the date and maybe a quick note to the owner about issues you might have over the cache and/or it's location. Instead, the post is put out there regarding some level of illegal placement, including but not all inclusive, access by tresspass, or disregard to local agency rules upon cache placement.

 

When you say posting do you mean to the forums or to the cache log? This is a very timely thread for me because I have been wondering what to do about a cache I visited yesterday. I don't consider myself police but sometimes you just have to post something in the logs!

 

I visited GC6E0E which is supposed to be 1* terrain... but you either have to bushwhack in or jump over a 5 foot tall wall (from the side that the cache directions suggest). This cache has been around since 2002 and a lot of cachers I respect have visited it without saying anything. But many folks have said something and there is a recent DNF - a short person who could see it but sensibly declined to jump the wall. Plus probably being on NPS land. And the 'owner' hasn't been on the site since 2004. IMHO it either needs archiving or adoption/maintenance (full log) with a much higher terrain rating. But if I say something does that make me "police" or a "whiner"?

[+clearpath]

The desire to 'police' a cache is something that you are born with ... many people visit these caches that, in your opinion, need to be reported. However, everyone else simply logs their visit and moves on to the next cache. So I say, if it's eating at you that bad, then report it. Make a difference ... do what you feel is the right thing.

[+TotemLake]

Some folks think I'm off base but I see a trend where people are posting their concerns on caches without due diligence. That due diligence being not only read the guidelines, but read the cache page, check the date and maybe a quick note to the owner about issues you might have over the cache and/or it's location. Instead, the post is put out there regarding some level of illegal placement, including but not all inclusive, access by tresspass, or disregard to local agency rules upon cache placement.

 

When you say posting do you mean to the forums or to the cache log? This is a very timely thread for me because I have been wondering what to do about a cache I visited yesterday. I don't consider myself police but sometimes you just have to post something in the logs!

 

I'm talking about posting on the forums before doing due diligence with the owner. You cited a good reason why either TPTB should be advised of the status (and need for rating change) or why it should be posted on the forums for debate.

 

...And the 'owner' hasn't been on the site since 2004.

 

There's nothing wrong with reporting or posting on a cache that "appears" to not be maintained by the owner and may have issues. However, was the cache posted before the guidelines for the area changed? If so, it is likely it was grandfathered in. In this case it was hidden in 2002 and I would likely say yes it was. It is also possible the 1 star rating at the time it was posted was appropriate as it was likely put in before the current cache rating system we have in place now as I can see by some early logs it looks like the fence was there at the time of placement. It is also likely (and I'm guessing here) there is at least a 2 star access to the cache without having to go over the fence.

 

But you did your homework, and that's the drift of my OP. Do your homework first. If it can't be resolved within reasonable means (which is the right thing to do), then post the cache here for debate and advisement.

[+4HoundsBrewingCo]

In some cases however, you can get called the cache police even IF you perform your due diligence.

 

Many folks here believe that you should just pass a cache by if for any reason you don't feel right about grabbing it. That is fine, and that is their choice. Others like to ask whether a cache is within the guidelines and I believe that is their choice as well.

 

Some folks like to use these forums as a sounding board to determine what the greater body of cachers thinks about a situation. I see no problem with this. In some cases, this can be a better first step than posting the dreaded SBA.

 

Cheers!

[+megatherian]

I recently posted a thread about trespassing to get to a cache. I'm new and wanted to get a feel for how situations like that are handled by at least this small subset of the community.

 

Don't forget, a lot of new people join geocaching all the time and they look to the forums to learn about the "game" and what the proper etiquette is. (BTW I did do a search before I posted my trespass question).

 

While I understand what you are saying and I agree people should do what they can to solve problems on their own - but one of those possible steps is to ask questions here in this forum.

 

I know the heavy frequenters of this site may see the same questions asked over and over again but that's a good thing. It means someone new is trying to learn the "sport" and it's just becoming more popular than ever. The only change I'd suggest is that people do a search for past topics before posting a new one. If we create the "forum police" though no one will want to come back.

[+Renegade Knight]

I have played cache cop about 4 times in just under 1000 caches.

 

1) The cache was on a steep stream bank. People walking on the bank (and it was a hard cache) were pushing dirt and debris and tearing up the ground and vegitation and that was all falling into the stream. I emailed the owner what was happening.

 

2) Twice there were Keystone Retaining wall caches. Cachers tend to lift up the capstone to look underneath. Dirt and debris falls in and the nice smooth top becomes snaggletoothed and ugly. I emailed the owners on both of those to let them know what was happening or going to happen.

 

3) A property owner came out to chew my butt about a cache in a landscaped rock bank. To be fair the cache was disabled (for this reason) and I had old info. However at the time I didn't know and told the owner I'd talk to the cache owner and call them back. They gave me their number. I spoke with the cache owner via email and the cache was archived. Cachers had been knocking the rocks into a landscaped canal. The homeowners every year have to pay for the restoration of this bank and to pull all the rocks out of the canal and they were not happey to see cachers come along and knock rocks all over looking for the cache. I called the owners back and let them know the cache was archived and that I should not have even been looking for it since it was disabled because the owner was already aware of the issue. They were impressed I called back.

 

In the forums I'll give an opinion on a cache if it's asked for. I try to discourage the questioning of why a cache was approved and encourage them to contact the cache owner. In real life practice I avoid questioning why a cache was approved and tend to email a concern directly to the owner. The only concerns that I have needed to do something with are wear and tear that a land manager won't like and of course when my butt was the one being chewed.

 

Edit:

There was a 5th and it's controversial as heck. I emailed the owner and other finders to correct their logs.

Long story short, there is a lava bluff that hikers for the past 50+ years have hiked up to and carved their name in the rocks. Cachers (me included) were doing the same thing. While a valid argument can be made either way (We are participating in a cultural tradtion vs. don't ever do that) what it looks like on a cache log is nothing but bad.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+TotemLake]

If we create the "forum police" though no one will want to come back.

 

If no one steps up to the plate, how will the newbies learn when they don't RTM? As with sometimes being a a cache cop isn't bad, sometimes a forum cop isn't a bad thing either. As you and others point out, we are self-policing.

[+sbell111]

If we create the "forum police" though no one will want to come back.

 

If no one steps up to the plate, how will the newbies learn when they don't RTM? As with sometimes being a a cache cop isn't bad, sometimes a forum cop isn't a bad thing either. As you and others point out, we are self-policing.

That logic doesn't really work. For instance, not too long ago, you were a noob. I asume that none of us had to give you a dope slap to keep you on the straight and narrow.

[+TotemLake]

If we create the "forum police" though no one will want to come back.

 

If no one steps up to the plate, how will the newbies learn when they don't RTM? As with sometimes being a a cache cop isn't bad, sometimes a forum cop isn't a bad thing either. As you and others point out, we are self-policing.

That logic doesn't really work. For instance, not too long ago, you were a noob. I asume that none of us had to give you a dope slap to keep you on the straight and narrow.

 

I definitely got dope slapped. If I wanted to take the time I could very easily dredge up the posts of my assertions being strongly challenged within my first 6 months on these very forums. As you can tell by my post count it didn't scare me off one bit.

[+Team Neos]

I would agree that there seems to be a recent trend for people to post complaints about caches that may not have any true relevance. In most of these cases the OP is not aware of mitigating circumstances (exceptions to rules, prearranged permission, grandfather clauses, etc) and they have not attempted to make themselves aware of that kind of exception before they post. I have noticed that trend both on cache pages and in the forums.

 

Discussion follows, the facts are made evident, the OP usually says Thanks for setting me straight" and everyone moves on. I think this sort of 'education' is inevitable in a venuw like ours, and although it would be nice if it were less frequent, this really doesn't bother me all that much. This type of thing might even be neccessary to educate newcomers.

 

What I have found troubling is the numbers of complaints about caches that turn out to be bogus. People post anguished notes about horrible caches etc etc when in reality what they are really doing is:

 

1) trying for revenge because a cache owner deleted their bogus found it log

2) trying to get the cache archived so they can hide one in that spot

3) seeking revenge because they had a cache denied or archived for some reason

4) angry over something that was said in the forums or on one of their cache pages

 

Even if they have posted factual information about the cache they are complaining about, they really aren't doing it to try to improve the sport or to make things better for others. Although this type usually claims that they are only trying to be responsible cachers, they are only trying to cause trouble for someone else for their own purposes. This isn't "policing" and it ends up being detrimental to the sport as people tire of wading through all the half-truths and accusations and anger these types of posts promote and just stop reading the forums. I always picture these folks sitting at their computer cackling and snorting and grinning gleefully about all the anguish they have stirred up.

[+Brian - Team A.I.]

I've done it and will continue to do so if I feel the situation warrants, but more so about cacher activity than anything else. We've had a rash of finds recently that were clearly after hours when parks are closed, 2 of them being recent FTFs and the cachers who broke the rules were somewhat chastised over the decision because it gives a black eye to caching for all of us if gubmint officials are monitoring regional cache activity. I commented privately to both FTFs about it, with one taking it kind of as a joke and the other explaining he didn't see any posted hours when he went in. A few days after the FTF my family and I went for the other where the FTF was well after park hours.

 

Coincidentally, I had been speaking with the guys at Radio Shack the day before and we were talking about how some local NFS officials were very upset with caching in general, because they still had the perception that we physically bury caches or that all these massive spider trails were forming all over the place because of it. Many of the caches around here are within a few feet of foot paths and some within 100-150' of an open field or trail and the caches receive maybe a couple dozen hits/year if they're hiking caches (there are so many spider trails from deer/antelope that there is no way they could point the finger at any one group).

 

So when I posted my find, I commented about my conversation the previous day and tied it into the fact that we all need to police ourselves in the common sense arena, also posting a picture of the clearly marked park hours. The couple in question hadn't been caching all that long, but new cacher or one such as myself that has been around for 5 years should be able to abide by such rules without having to be given a caching etiquette lesson. Perhaps if someone drilled a hole in a headstone for a bison capsule, but not for something like park hours.

 

Another cacher up here put out a cache under the guise of it being patriotic in nature, but when I made my find on it, I discovered that was exactly the guise he was going for. In the description was something about a 'list of patriot websites' and an eBook. I wrote down all the websites and took the CD home to look at. Once I made it through the list of sites and the CD, I went back and took the list of websites, destroying them shortly after. Why? The list of 'patriot' websites wasn't anything you would tie to patriotism except the extremist kind. Several of the sites had links off the main pages to neo-nazi groups, and all were fringe militant in nature. The ebook looked like a well documented book on federal/state gun laws, until you got to the last 12 pages. At that point, it becomes a call to arms and going to war with the government and a host of other off the wall militia war cries.

 

Because of that information, I posted to the local group message board and posted my dilemma to the masses about how to address it. It just so happened that the cache owner was part of the same group but that didn't matter. Shortly after posting, I was contacted by a federal investigator who happened to be a part of the local group as well, and was currently researching hate/militia groups. During that dialogue I was provided with some information and learned that the cacher in question was the Chairman of the Patriot Party for the state. My initial post to the group was of concern for the overt political nature of the items in the cache, and the expectation that political/religious neutrality exist with regard to the contents in a cache.

 

There have been a few other situations I've addressed in the past, both public and private, and wouldn't have done any of them differently. Generally I'm around for advice when people ask it of me, threats of bodily harm due to frustration induced by looking for my caches, and continued hiding/finding of caches. It's not often that someone who really shouldn't be caching comes along, something I think is fortunate for all of us. It's been awhile since cache pirates have appeared and it will hopefully be a long time before a cache is neutralized by a bomb squad robot.

[+ganlet]

one of the issues ive commonly ran into is people who stop geocaching and leave their caches out there unmaintained. under these circumstances, where the owner hasnt logged in for a while. after lookin for the cache a good 2 or 3 times i will post a request for someone who has found it to go and check on it. while this isnt exactly policing i feel its simular enough to post

[+GSPD]

It is pretty bad, and obvious, when someone breaks the rules either on purpose or without paying attention to the rules. I have found several caches that were buried or the external container was buried. When I contacted the owner each time, I was ignored. When I reported to the GS admins, most were archived immediately with the stipulation that they would be un-archived if they were fixed. None were. Obviously there was no other way to hide these in each of these areas without the benefit of being underground. I have taken the issue up with out regional reviewer who recommended I not take on cache policing. Since then, I have contacted 3 additional owners of buried caches and have gotten one reply. Common sense does not work with some of these people. My assumption is that many new cachers, like I was a short time ago, read many things, including the rules, before starting to cache. This is so you can have an idea of what to look for. If you are looking above the ground level, because a cache shouldn't be underground, then it is rather upsetting when you discover it has been placed illegally. What really bothers me is the fact that 50 experienced previous cachers have found it and never said a thing. They post a comment like: "Nice hide!" which only encourages the rule breakers to continue. Another case of "Lack of any Sense"

 

This weekend alone I drive 150+ miles to a cache and found a 'No Trespassing" sign at the waypoint the owner suggested for the entry into the area. Another a short distance away was supposed to be an abandon mining area. I was nearly run over by an 18 wheeler as I was sitting at the entrance reading the 'No Trespassing' sign. It upsets you when you have driven 2 hours to get there to only find out you shouldn't be in that area looking around. Of course I will now be strung up by rope from the nearest tree by the crew in our area that seem hell-bent on hanging someone for reporting illegal caches. Did I mention Lack-O-Sense?

 

If everyone cooperated and at least tried to play by the rules, the game would be more fun. For me, it is now handled by putting certain cache placers immediately into my ignore category. There are plenty of good cachers out there to search for their hides rather than to waste my time with the ID-10-t types.

[+Criminal]

It is pretty bad, and obvious, when someone breaks the rules either on purpose or without paying attention to the rules.

 

If everyone cooperated and at least tried to play by the rules, the game would be more fun. For me, it is now handled by putting certain cache placers immediately into my ignore category. There are plenty of good cachers out there to search for their hides rather than to waste my time with the ID-10-t types.

How's that?