Cave Questions

[+nfa]

Hi,

 

I've been thinking about placing a cache that would end with a physical container hidden in a cave. I was thinking of doing this one as a podcache, after using some GPS coordinates to get you to parking, and through one or two other stages. The entrance to the cave requires a little scrambling to get through the firs t50 or so feet and into the main chamber. Beyond this the cave gets more technically challenging than I imagine most geocachers are interested in, so the container would be in the main chamber. It's a beautiful hike to the cave, the entrance is veiled with a couple of rare(ish) species of fern, and the cave itself has some interesting formations and erosional features. My questions are:

1. would you seek/avoid a cache ending in a cave
   
2. is it reasonable to insist that visitors bring a hardhat and flashlight
   
3. there are some cool (and safe) sinkholes nearby, would you climb down to hunt for a stage
   

Anyone with experience with this sort of cache, either as a hider or seeker, I would appreciate your imput especially.

 

Thanks,

 

Jamie

[+Isonzo Karst]

As a cache hunter, absolutely. As a caver, I have some questions. Are you a N.S.S. member (Natl Speological Society)? If yes, then I expect you're up to speed on protection safety tourist issues with your local caves. If not, I'd really recommend that you contact the local chapter and ask. Caves are fragile and under heavy pressure.

 

I've thought about a cave hide myself, in a cave a few feet off the trail, already heavily visited by hikers. A few more geo-cachers will hardly matter. They might even help, the area needs CITO badly. I haven't done it as I don't really want to feed casual interest in the local caves. The caving community is very careful about NOT creating user trail to the other cave entries.

[+nfa]

Thanks, I'll try that...

 

j

[the federation]

I have done 2 cave caches and both were enjoyable. I know of one other cacve cache that is up to the challenge that you put forth and each has is it's own merits and challenges. I agree with IK from previous threads I know the cave people are quite protective of caves. Not being up on the safety issues involved I think her advice is right on point. My one concern from you post is the fact that rare plants are present. If this is the case and these caves are on land regulated by some management agency I am sure you would be hard pressed to get permission which in this case seems imperative. Good luck with the placement if the obstacles can be worked out I would hunt it.

[+nfa]

I did a search on local caving orgs, and couldn't find any info that this cave is a part of their programming. I found the cave through an book on fun adirondack hikes, which recommended taking a look inside the cave and nearby sinkholes. The caves are on state forest preserve land, on which caches are allowed.

 

I would certainly tell people to be careful of the vegetation in the area around the cave, but let me correct my OP...the fern species around the mouth of the cave are not endangered, just rarely seen in the normal course of hiking in the ADKs.

 

I was thinking about caching a couple of hardhats outside the mouth of the cave for people who don't have their own.

 

Could someone provide me with links to general information on caving safety, and good conservation practices while inside caves.

 

The cave does not require ropes or climbing or squeezing through tiny spaces...it is a broad mouth coming out of the side of the mountain, and to gain entry to the chamber inside, you need to scramble through some rocks and there is water on the floor...my point in mentioning this is that I don't want to present this as spelunking, but as a nice hike with a cool cave at the end.

 

Jamie

[+NotNutts]

One possible problem. GPSr reception is generally poor inside caves...

[+nfa]

my plan is to make this one a multi-cache with a couple of stages making use of podcache technology in places where the GPS won't get reception, including the final stage in the cave...

 

jamie

[+Isonzo Karst]

N.S.S. down on the home page you'll find a drop down box for finding local grottos (clubs or outings) in New York. When I tried to link directly to that page it didn't work. Cavers, like cachers are pretty enthusiastic and helpful.

[madratdan]

Try this link.

 

http://www.caves.org/safety/safety.html

[+ChileHead]

I did a search on local caving orgs, and couldn't find any info that this cave is a part of their programming.

 

Ask somebody at speleobooks (http://www.speleobooks.com/) ... they seem to know a lot about caving in New York State. Not sure which grotto covers your area. My old grotto (NFG) doesn't have any caves to speak of in our area, so we always have to travel!

[+BigWhiteTruck]

I would be all over it

[debi13]

place the cache near the cave and give the coords to the enterance

if people want to enter the cave they can, but dont have to

but we would have to explore the cave for sure

[Verga]

Hi,

My questions are:

1. would you seek/avoid a cache ending in a cave
   
2. is it reasonable to insist that visitors bring a hardhat and flashlight
   
3. there are some cool (and safe) sinkholes nearby, would you climb down to hunt for a stage
   

Anyone with experience with this sort of cache, either as a hider or seeker, I would appreciate your imput especially.

 

Thanks,

 

Jamie

 

I live in Medina NY how far is this from lake clear and when will this cache be up?

Will you give me two weeks advance notice so I can get my first FTF (Yes I will paya bribe if that will peak your interest)

 

So in order of question

1) Count me in

2) Yes

3) Yes

[+briansnat]

Cavers, like cachers are pretty enthusiastic and helpful.

 

But not about geocaching. Some NSS members are adamantly against geocaches in caves and have been known to remove them. Also, they try to keep the location of some more sensitive caves a secret and do not appreciate having the coordinates published here or anywhere else.

[+nfa]

I'm going down in a few weeks, once we lose the majority of our snow, to revisit the site, and place the cache if I still feel that it's appropriate (I visited it for the first time last fall, and the idea has been kicking around for awhile).

 

I'm making the cave the final stage of a six stage multi that will involve a fun day exploring some cool spots in the Central Adirondacks, partly to share some of my favorite spots, partly to restrict the number of vistors to the cave).

 

Jamie

[+Miragee]

This cache, "Indiana Ed’s Subterranean Cache," is not a cave, but it is a very cool cache.

 

I think a cache in a cave would be great, but not everyone has a way to listen to a podcast . . .

[+nfa]

This cache, "Indiana Ed’s Subterranean Cache," is not a cave, but it is a very cool cache.

 

I think a cache in a cave would be great, but not everyone has a way to listen to a podcast . . .

 

people can burn the mp3 files onto a cd, and most should be able to find a cd player.

[+Miragee]

Sure, I guess so, but I have a really, really slow dialup connection to the Internet. Downloading an mp3 file, depending on its size, of course, would take lots of time, and slow down all my other browsing.

 

However, I'm probably the only Geocacher who connects at 24K.

 

And, believe it or not, some people don't have CD burners in their computers . . .

[+nfa]

I don't want to exclude people for technological reasons, so I'll burn a dozen cds with the mp3 files on them, and leave them in a waymarked container for people, and mention it in the listing.

 

Jamie

[+Renegade Knight]

Caves are fair game for a geocache entirly because they are interesting. However there are caves and there are caves. Some nobody not even the most anto Geocaching NSS purist is going to contest a cache at. The teenagers who drive out and party in it and leave their bottles, firepits and spray paint behind have already made it so that Geocachers with their Cito ethic would be a boon to the clean up of the cave.

 

Others are enough of a hike to where the riff raff don't go normally and those who do care to go already know about the cave. This is another likely candidate for a cache.

 

Bad Andy hid one at a cave and one of these days I'll make the brutal lavafield hike to get to it and log it. I think in the past 3 years that there has been one person to log it.

 

Like everthing else you have to take your cave in context. There are caves that should not have caches. I draw that line a lot less consertavily than the NSS would but both sides do agree that there are caves appropriate for caches and caves that should never see one.

 

My cache Kuna Kave Krawl is a cave cache. It's a teen age party spot, and cachers have been nothing but great stewards hauling the junk left behind. In spite of the grafitti and beer bottles it's still a cool cache.

 

Also just because a cache is near a cave doesn't mean you have to advertise that it is.

[+Salvelinus]

This cave cache sparked quite a local controversy. I do remember some old forum threads about the topic. I suspect even if your cave isn't popular or registered somewhere, the caving purist will eventually be against your cache. Frankly, IMO some of their concerns are very legit...some are not. I remember some of those people as being quite bizarre.

 

I thought GC.com was backing away from approving cave caches due to several previous bad situations with the caving community? Maybe not.

 

In any event, I wish you luck. I would be into a cache like that.

 

Salvelinus

[+XRN95]

I think your idea sounds great. Although I have done some dry caving most of my cave experience has been through cave diving. I would suggest that people going into a cave bring more than 1 light, 2 would be great, 3 would be ideal. They dont have to be full size lights, but enough to get you out. Three might seem like overkill but its a standard I am used to. Granted this all depends on the size of the cave. If you can see daylight from the cache (assuming the cache will be located inside the cave), no problem (night time is another story), you could get away with less lights. If getting to the cache involves lots of turns or getting through restrictions, I would definately have more lights on hand. A helmet wouldnt be a bad idea for sure.

 

As far as environmental impact, I agree with RK. Again from a cave diving perspective, there are caves and there are caves. I have dove some caves that have been declared off limits to students. This is because, in general, they do not yet have the skill to minimize there inpact on the cave. You would be amazed what damage fins can do to a cave. On the opposite side, On a trip to mexico, I was told of a cave that they take inexperienced divers to learn...also where many locals take there wash their car...hence the name "Carwash". If people respect the cave and its structures/vegetation you should have a great location.

 

I would be all over this if I lived close!

[rocketmann]

never hid or found a cache in cave but here is one, Jesus' Tomb

[+DocDiTTo]

I have a cache hidden in a cave. Unfortunately the cave itself appears on quite a few maps, and all the locals know it as a party spot. It's pretty trashed. (I have a "Clean up the Cave" CITO event going on there next month) However, in order to protect whatever secrecy the cave has left, my cache there is a multi that starts with a puzzle. You won't find the coords to the cave at all online. I contacted a local caving group to see what they thought of a cache in a cave, and they said that in this particular cave, it wouldn't really make a difference. Most cave locations are kept secret to prevent vandalism and abuse, which is why they're so hard to find unless you're a member of the caving crowd. If you have a local cave that's been "outted", a cache there would certainly be fun, as long as it was permitted.

[+Renegade Knight]

Here is something to make you think a bit more:

 

http://www.birdsofprey.blm.gov/higbycave.htm

 

Yoru cave may require a permit. This cave was a teenage party spot The Closure appears to target that faucet but punishes us all. Often Safety is a smokescreen for the real issue. Sometimes its a real issue but used so much as smoke screen it's always questioned.

[+Bluejaytoo]

This is something I've been struggling over for some time now. I have a cave within a couple miles of my house, and I've been dying to hide a cache there. I'm a former NSS member, so I know their views on caves and caches. Since this cave is considered one of the biggest unmapped caves in Pennsylvania, I think they would frown upon me hiding a cache there. But locals know about it, and it has been used as a party spot off and on over the years. What makes me want to hide a cache there is that the cave has a bit of fascinating history behind it, and that would follow the theme of all my caches. Frankly I think my city should use it as a tourist destination.

 

There is no simple way to get to this location without trespassing, so I want to make it a difficult multi that forces cachers to approach from the proper direction. That and I have a deep desire to place some really challenging caches around here. I have no interest in hiding the final cache in the main room of this cave, but rather in one of the dark recesses that requires a bit of crawling and squeezing, for the sake of protecting it from muggles, and for the sake of creating a true challenge. I would make this clear on the cache listing, as well as a list of equipment that should be used, proper bat etiquette, and a dire warning as to the safety issues involved. I want this to be something of a holy grail quest. I do not want to approach the local NSS chapter for their input; I know they will be against it. But this cave probably gets more visits from non-cachers than it ever will from cachers, so I can't see our sport as having any kind of adverse impact on it.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Bluejaytoo

[+Lightning Jeff]

The one cave cache I've found (Slain Queen Cave on Maui) was one of my all-time favorites. I agree that many caves would not be appropriate cache locations, but some are and this was one. The cave is located in a state park, with a developed trail intended to lead tourists to the site. Many tourists - mostly non-cachers, of course - enter the cave, which requires a swim. The only difference for us is that there is something to look for (and it is difficult to find). I had no concerns about it. As in all things, I think you just have to use judgment.

[+Katydid & Miles Stone]

Keep an eye on this forum link and perhaps you'll get some ideas for cave cache placements: Leatherman's Loop - a cache series in CT & NY. MS

[+Quest Master]

I am a contributing member to a conservancy organization that works hard to preserve public access to wild caves. Caves are often closed due to the actions of ignorant and inconsiderate persons. Typically, this happens when somebody gets injured or the cave is damaged. I would really enjoy such a cache but I advise against putting a cache in a cave like this for practical reasons.

 

1. Caves are dangerous and deceptively so. I wouldn't want to require people to enter a cave to find a geocache. If they want to venture into the cave let them enter at their own risk without the incentive of treasure or a smiley face. Advise that they should not enter the cave unless the have proper equipment, skills, and experience.

 

2. Caves are fragile. If this cave doesn't see a lot of traffic, it's probably in a relatively pristine condition and hopefully it can remain that way. Additional traffic is troublesome enough but people searching for a cache inside the cave could cause excessive damage.

 

3. I think there's a good chance that your cache will be muggled. More people than you might think probably go into this cave. Cavers have been known to remove geocaches from caves when they find them. If your cache disappears for any reason, my #1 and #2 reasons are magnified because people might venture into the cave further than you intended or tear the place apart looking for a cache that isn't there.

[+Discombob]

I have hidden 2 caches in caves

 

The mines of moriaThe Paths of the dead

 

1 is a long but simple cave going through a mountain. the cache is hidden on the other side, with the co-ords hidden in the middle of the cave. 2 people have found that one by themselves.

 

the other is in a fairly complex cave system, and i found it hard to describe the route to the cache. i thus said on the page that if someone wants to find the cache, i will be happy to guide them through the cave.

I have only had 1 brave taker in a few months

[+Bluejaytoo]

1. Caves are dangerous and deceptively so. I wouldn't want to require people to enter a cave to find a geocache. If they want to venture into the cave let them enter at their own risk without the incentive of treasure or a smiley face. Advise that they should not enter the cave unless the have proper equipment, skills, and experience.

 

This is exactly why I want to place a cache there. We don't have nearly enough 5-star caches in this area. My cache partner and I purposely seek them out; this is the kind of cache we would personally pursue. By placing the cache outside the cave and offering it as a side trip, it dilutes the difficulty level. The cache description would include dire warnings and examples of the types of injuries and catastrophies that could result from not being properly prepared. (I only expect one or two finds per year.)

 

2. Caves are fragile. If this cave doesn't see a lot of traffic, it's probably in a relatively pristine condition and hopefully it can remain that way. Additional traffic is troublesome enough but people searching for a cache inside the cave could cause excessive damage.

 

This particular cave is not pristine. It is a typical fracture cave that has been visited many times over many decades (usually by kids with flashlights and no protective gear). Most of the activity it has seen was during the 1960s and '70s; the grafitti on the walls of the main room are testament to this.

 

3. I think there's a good chance that your cache will be muggled. More people than you might think probably go into this cave. Cavers have been known to remove geocaches from caves when they find them. If your cache disappears for any reason, my #1 and #2 reasons are magnified because people might venture into the cave further than you intended or tear the place apart looking for a cache that isn't there.

 

There are enough out of the way crawl spaces that I think I can find a spot that is likely not to be muggled. My biggest concern would be, as you said, from cavers themselves. Many of them tend to be a bit overzealous, which is unfortunate and tends to be counter to their cause. But this cave is so unique in other ways (historically) that I believe it is a shame to keep it a secret. The coordinates for the cave itself would not be published; in order to get them, seekers would have to venture a good bit on foot, via a multi-stage hunt. In other words, they must earn their privilege to see the cave. I have considered the safety factor, but I don't believe this to be any more dangerous than requiring a rock face rappel or a SCUBA dive, noting in the description that specialized equipment is required.

 

I can't speak for the OP of this thread, or any other caves. You are certainly correct in many, if not most, cases. But there are cases where caves can make great geocaches.