C & Gs

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

The Coast and Geodetic Survey was Founded by Thomas Jefferson in 1807.

 

2007 Will be the 200th Anniversary.

 

A brief History.

U.S. National Geodetic Survey

 

The National Geodetic Survey is the successor agency in the United States to the U.S. Coast and Geodetic Survey. It was first established by President Thomas Jefferson in 1807 as the Survey of the Coast. Progress moved ahead slowly and haltingly during the first 25 years. Not until August 29, 1811 did Mr. F. R. Hassler sail for Europe to obtain the proper instruments. He remained in Europe during the War of 1812, then he returned to the United States on August 16, 1815 with the proper instruments.

 

Mr. Hassler's plans were to employ triangulation to establish his system. Work began in the vicinity of New York City in 1816. The first base line was measured and verified in 1817. A new Act of Congress interfered with the work of Mr. Hassler in 1818. The army and navy were placed at the forefront of the Survey which generated a lull in activity which lasted from 1818 to 1832. Little work was produced until another Act of Congress was passed on July 10, 1832. It re-empowered the original Act of 1807. Mr. Hassler was re-appointed as the superintendent, and field work was resumed in April, 1833.

 

The Coast survey was without a superintendent during the 14 years from 1818 to 1832 when the army was the primary authority. The Navy Department was given the control of the survey from 1834 to 1836, but the Treasury department resumed the administration of the survey on March 26, 1836. Hassler died in 1843.

 

Professor Alexander Dallas Bache became superintendent of the Survey in 1843. Earlier in his life, he had established the first magnetic observatory. During his years as superintendent, he expanded the Survey southward along the Atlantic coast into the Florida Keys. He instituted regular and systematic observations of the tides and the Gulf Stream, and investigated magnetic forces and directions.

 

As the American continent was progressively explored, inhabited and enclosed, the bureau took responsibility for survey of the interior. In 1878 it reorganised as the Coast and Geodetic Survey (C&GS). Since 1970, the National Geodetic Survey has been part of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration within the United States Department of Commerce.

 

During the nineteenth century, the remit of the Survey was rather loosely drawn and it had no competitors in federally funded scientific research. Various Superintendents developed its work in fields as diverse as astronomy, cartography, meteorology, geodesy, geology, geophysics, hydrography, navigation, oceanography, exploration, pilotage, tides and topography.

 

From 1836 until the establishment of National Institute of Standards and Technology in 1901, the Survey was responsible for weights and measures throughout the US.

 

Superintendents of the Survey (after 1919, Directors)

 

* Ferdinand Rudolph Hassler, (1816–1818 and 1832–1843)

* Alexander Dallas Bache, (1843–1865)

* Benjamin Peirce, (1867–1874)

* Carlile Pollock Patterson, (1874–1881)

* Julius Erasmus Hilgard, (1881–1885)

* Frank Manly Thorn, (1885–1889)

* Thomas Corwin Mendenhall, (1889–1894)

* William Ward Duffield, (1894–1897)

* Henry Smith Pritchett, (1897–1900)

* Otto Hilgard Tittmann, (1900–1915)

* Ernest Lester Jones, (1915–1929)

* Raymond Stanton Patton, (1929–1937)

* Robert Francis Anthony Studds, (1938–1955)

* Henry Arnold Karo, (1955–1965);

* James C. Tison, Jr., (1965–1968)

 

I would like to get some input on what we as geocachers can do to fullfill the Grand sights of our Forefathers.

 

Thomas Jefferson must have also been a visionary,to look ahead and see this progress.

I have been honored to be a part of this and I am asking you to join me(us) as well.

 

The main point being Public Education Outreach and Education.

 

Thank you for reading this far,and I would greatly appreciate everyones input.

 

GEO*

[+BuckBrooke]

I admit that I haven't been around as long as some of ya'll, nor have I the professional training, but...

Something that we've talked about in the past that I would like to work to see firmly put together is an NGS officially sanctioned organization, perhaps even incorporated, of us benchmarkers.

 

I think it would be beneficial to the NGS to have an organized group of volunteers, similar to the National Map Corps, that would go after benchmarks/geodetic points to update them. The National Benchmark Corps? National Geodetic Control Recovery Corps?

There have been many concerns and critiques comparing the atmosphere, community and results of our informal group with the US Power Squadron's PID recovery efforts. There are pros and cons to getting more organized. However, I think a lot could be done in terms of training, putting down on paper what we do and generally working with the NGS more closely.

 

There might be enough time to put it together. I think organizing this would encapsulate the historical citizen surveyor nature of the USC&GS & NGS.

Edited March 8, 2006 by BuckBrooke

[+Klemmer]

Very intersting, both the history and the idea of a "Geodetic Corps". I'm willing to assist however I can.

[+NorStar]

Not too long ago, I read part of the history of the USC&G on NGS's web site. It goes into quite a bit more detail than the account given above, which was great in getting me up to speed on the rest of the history.

 

I joined the benchmarking club partly for the coins and partly to see if it might evolve into a more formal group which the NGS might interact. It might or might not (it won't affect my membership either way).

 

I support the idea of making our ties with NGS more formal. I'll also support efforts to formalize any 'documentation' that would help someone make right judgements in the field and properly log them both to gc.com and NGS's. There is a lot of 'stuff' out there, and much of what has been in the forums has been condensed. But a lot of stuff referenced is still written more for the surveyor than for the less technical benchmark hunter. I think we can make a strong case that non-surveyors (like me, my engineering background is from a discipline other than civil) can make a contribution, as well. One of the things I do for work is produce guidelines/user manuals/operating procedures.

 

Another project I thought about was to determine and find what locations are of particular significance to the history of surveying/benchmarking in the country (Canada, UK, and others could look for their own, as well), state/province or other locality. Then we could use Waymarking.com to list them. For instance:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=MY3471 is a destroyed marker that has the triangular plate to mark the location of an important early survey measurement made in 1834 by Simeon Bordon (it's in the description).

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=QF0763. is also a destroyed marker; however, NOAA just put a commemorative marker there just last July. The Calais Observatory was an important station in fixing the boundary between the U.S. and Canada and in establishing exact distances. It has particular interest for me since part of my family came from Calais-St. Stephen.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=MY5214 is a recovered marker that has a large cement monument around it with several years and names on it and appears to be an important marker in fixing the boundary between Mass. and N.H. It has also been formally cleared for geocachers to visit it.

 

These are all on both the GC and NGS databases but there should be flexibility in having non database ones tagged as well, if there is something left to visit (if destroyed, some remnant such as the foundation or tower remains).

Edited March 9, 2006 by NorStar

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

On the subject os a "National Geodetic Corps" I am all for it. It would have a number of plusses:

 

1) Basic education of the members (us) on Geodetic marks.

2) Uniforn standards for searching and recovery.

3) Basic advice on dealing with access issues.

4) Higher quality (and perhaps higher volume) of feedback to the NGS through the recovery logs.

 

One point that would be nice would be some additiaonal status which would help us with access issues. This is a touchy issue for the NGS. Read the following thread from a while back: Thread on IDs in NGS forum

 

Casey gave a pretty unequivocal answer when I asked for some type of ID or letter from the NGS (emphasis added):

This issue has come up a few times so I will just say what I have said before. NGS can not issue any sort of ID, or statement, or letter, or anything to anyone. It a security issue and is out of our hands. Sorry.

...

-Casey-

 

Now the USGS seems to have somehow worked around this with the Map Corps. I don't belong to it but have read that they give you some kind of document that asks land owners to accomotate the person so as to do the job. How they got this through is a good question. Perhaps it was a while ago before national security was such a hot button issue.

 

Anyone out there who belongs to the Map Corps? Does the ID or letter or whatever it is get you in anywhere you would normally not be allowed?

 

Perhaps some off line discussion with Casey or someone in the NGS could yeld some results.

 

Even if there were no statements of any kind from the NGS, a real organization with proper procedures, education and IDs would probably help in some situations. A lot of time the average security guard just wants to see something, anything, so he can tell his box, "Yeah, I checked the ID".

Edited March 9, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[+Klemmer]

The USGS Map Corp ID is not great. Many of us could do better from our home PC's. Here is mine, with name & number blanked to protect the innocent (me!). The name and number are written in, like the date. I have only shown it once, along with my picture ID (CA drivers license) to a property owner that happened by when I was on the front (public) sidewalk. Rather than make the point I was on public property, I just showed them and explained. No problem. Not sure it would be very helpful in anything more serious. I personally assume it won't do me any good, and act accordingly.

 

[+BuckBrooke]

I would like this Corps to balance the intense fascination that many of us have with the practical and historical practice of surveying vs. the practical needs of the NGS to maintain a modern geodetic network.

 

Just throwing out ideas, we might be able to organize, or at least neatly list, projects among the group, and connect in with various surveying needs at the national and state levels. PFF has been very involved with the NC historical recovery efforts, while I know the BLM has been looking for all township corners in the US. Finding and listing these regional/national projects, and perhaps connecting in with the NGS state advisors, might prove us to be a useful organization to the NGS.

 

We've chatted about the usefullness/pitfalls of an official recognition procedure before; that would have to be set aside or thoroughly hashed out to the satisfaction of all.

[caseyb]

I just saw this thread for the first time... I dont check this forum all that often.

 

My knee jerk reaction to this idea is positive. I think something could be done. A few thoughts....

 

1: Every time this issue has come up in the past somebody always makes reference to the national map program and its volunteers. And I can see why. There is a tie to surveying, and mapping and that kind of stuff. What I doubt many realize though is that NGS and USGS are in seperate agencies. NGS is part of the Dept. of Commerce, and USGS is in the Department of the Interior. The reason I point this out, is because it would be harder to model something after something in a different department, when there are models closer to home.

 

Maybe some of you have heard of NOAA, and know a bit about what it does (in case you missed it NGS is part of NOAA and is located in NOAA's National Ocean Service). NOAA is a diverse organization with lots of parts. Well, one of those parts has its own volunteer program for private citizens that comes complete with training and stuff. It is part of NOAA's National Weather Service. Check it out.

 

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/lzk/html/skywarn.h...%20is%20Skywarn

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/fwd/sptrsch.html

 

I suspect it might serve as a decent model if we wanted to get serious about getting NOAA involvement in this. Granted it is MUCH larger than anything I think we would put together (at least at first )

 

2: If we try to sell this here at NGS, we *might* be able to get something together, but I still doubt we would be able to issue any sort of useful ID or somthing. Sure, I could maybe print you out a letter that says you registered with NGS, but what good is that going to do? As I have said in the past, NGS EMPLOYEES have difficulty gaining access to marks all the time. Its not like we just roll up to a place, pull out a badge and say (in a deep manyl voice) "Emminent Domaine, step aside this is official governemtn buisness." Heck, I know stories of NGS employees being chased off land by people with shotguns. Point being, if you are only wanting to do this to get a badge or an ID, you will probably be dissapointed.

 

3: I think it is going to be a while before I can get serious about this. I have tried to avoid mentioning this, but I have been on a rotational assignment for about 7 months now. It's part of this fellowship program that I am in ( http://www.pmf.opm.gov/ if your interested) and I won't be back to NGS until August or so. I have been doing my best to keep up with all my Benchmark buddies here on the forums, but I just don't have any real time to commit outside of that. Come August though, I could get serious and see what can be done.

 

-Casey-

Edited March 10, 2006 by caseyb

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

We have a lot of good ideas.

 

First I guess we should start with a Name and a Mission.

 

Name:

 

(GEOCACHING GEODETIC RECOVERY TEAM) is the GEOCACHING, NOAA and NGS program of trained geodetic-oriented volunteers. (GEOCACHING GEODETIC RECOVERY TEAM) volunteers support their national and local government by assisting in geodetic control recovery, in general and for specific projects, and in public education, outreach and training.

 

Mission

 

The object of our mission is to educate and inspire the present and future generations of the

Importance of Our National Treasures.

To document and recover any and all the historical marks remaing,desroyed,set and to be set for the National Spatial Reference System.

To do this in an honest and timely matter.

 

To reach out into the public in our communities and teach,communicate and relay the impotance of NOAA-NGS,fomerly the Coast and Geodetic Survey founded by Thomas Jefferson.

 

To help sponsor events through the NGS and Geocaching.

 

 

This is just a start.

Feel free to correct or edit or give response.

 

As a member of the Presidents USA FREEDOM CORPS.

USA FREEDOM CORPS

 

GEO*TRAILBLAZER 1

 

Edited and Name and mission under review.

Keep the ideas coming.

Edited March 12, 2006 by GEO*Trailblazer 1

[+BuckBrooke]

Hmm...I would advocate for divorcing the group in name from Geocaching. The name also depends on what the folks in the NGS/NOAA want to have. I would prefer something like the Geodetic Volunteer Service, which is more descriptive of what we do.

 

As to a mission statement, how about ripping from the statement for Skywarn:

"(insert name of group here) is the NOAA and NGS program of trained geodetic-oriented volunteers. (Insert name) volunteers support their national and local government by assisting in geodetic control recovery, in general and for specific projects, and in public education, outreach and training."

 

There might be a few snippets here that can add to the final statement.

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Snipit if you like we are still young.

 

How's this?

 

We have a lot of good ideas.

 

First I guess we should start with a Name and a Mission.

 

Name:

 

(GEOCACHING GEODETIC RECOVERY TEAM) is the GEOCACHING, NOAA and NGS program of trained geodetic-oriented volunteers. (GEOCACHING GEODETIC RECOVERY TEAM) volunteers support their national and local government by assisting in geodetic control recovery, in general and for specific projects, and in public education, outreach and training.

 

Mission

 

The object of our mission is to educate and inspire the present and future generations of the

Importance of Our National Treasures.

To document and recover any and all the historical marks remaing,desroyed,set and to be set for the National Spatial Reference System.

To do this in an honest and timely matter.

 

To reach out into the public in our communities and teach,communicate and relay the impotance of NOAA-NGS,fomerly the Coast and Geodetic Survey founded by Thomas Jefferson.

 

To help sponsor events through the NGS and Geocaching.

 

 

This is just a start.

Feel free to correct or edit or give response.

 

As a member of the Presidents USA FREEDOM CORPS.

USA FREEDOM CORPS

 

GEO*TRAILBLAZER 1

 

Edited and Name and mission under review.

Keep the ideas coming.

[+BuckBrooke]

After this first give and take conversation, I sat back and thought about this proposed organization. Thinking back to strategic planning processes I've gone through with another organization, I've realized that it's much easier to put together a mission statement for an organization that exists and has history, than one that doesn't.

 

As such, I think it would be good for us to think about what we want this organization to do, and then form the mission statement from there. At least two questions need to be answered. What do the members do for the NGS, and what does this organization do for the members? My incomplete list, with comments is below.

 

I think there are a lot of facets of benchmarking that many of the regulars in this forum organize in bits and pieces that might be put together into a robust organization.

 

Service to the NGS:

1) Update the NGS database by finding stations

I think we need to have an extended dialogue with the NGS (CaseyB, Dave Doyle, etc.) about what they want from us. I personally would like to hear the NGS' opinion upon why it's useful for us to log hard ground stations in the days of GPS, what would be the most useful recoveries for them, what are less useful recoveries (probably steeple/water tank type), etc. Some non-binding guidelines, that people can read if they wish.

 

Are there particular recovery projects in different regions of the country that the NGS would like us to focus on? Can we, with the NGS, organize recovery projects, such as recovering marks in federal lands, or something?

 

2) Work with other agencies on recovery projects

I think opportunities exist, such as PFF's work in NC, for us to work with other national, state, city and county agencies on their recovery projects. Another example: I have spoken with the City of Albuquerque survey office, who are blue-booking all of the disks that they have. They want help in finding the 1,000 vertical control stations in ABQ. The BLM has a large recovery process ongoing right now; they may welcome help in going out to the field.

 

The prime way to organize this may be through the NGS' state advisors, who may be aware of state projects. I'm not sure.

 

Ways that the NGS/Recovery Corps can help members

1) Training

Right now, this forum and experience finding disks are the main way for folks to become good at finding disks. I don't include the professionals, who generally are much better at this then amateurs like myself.

 

I would like to see the NGS/this organization put together a nice fieldbook to benchmarking, like a manual. I thnk this would be very useful in getting folks up to speed quickly, and it wouldn't require training sessions/work from the NGS' point of view.

 

I would like to see the state advisers work with benchmarkers in each state/area to offer training sessions, on some sort of regular basis. This would help quite a bit. Maybe the main office can offer a session now and again, perhaps not much more than the lunches that ya'll have had on the east coast.

 

2) Communication/Information

I think we could put together a really good website that would have comprehensive information, links etc. The organization website would give people a lot of information about surveying, the NGS' efforts, the organization's efforts, etc., and would also alert people to events that are happening, such as the NGS' special dedications, etc.

 

The organization could also provide information, such as a passive email list serv, etc.

 

This would facilitate feedback from us, such as wanting the NGS' online database website to be modernized, and trying to get the photo database up and running.

 

3) Learning

I am very interested in many aspects of surveying, the NGS' efforts, the history of surveying, etc., but I know that my interests, and what I get out of this hobby, are different in respects than everyone else. Zhanna is in this hobby for her own interests, which are different than GEO*'s, which lie more towards the historical/American side of the hobby than mine. CallawayMT likes old stations and the Principal Meridians. I know that many people like finding the older stations, particularly for hiking mountains, etc., and some people like city stations that they can quickly get to.

 

As such, I would like to see the group spread information, either by this forum, which I think is great, and/or paper/electronic information.

 

4) Recognition/Incentives

This is the tricky bit. I'm not sure what to say here, but would it be good to provide incentives to encourage participation? The USPSQD does it by patches (for so many points, based upon their scheme). 2oldfarts' benchmark pins are a good homegrown example.

 

And individual recognition is not the only concern. Not that I envy the Jones', but the USPSQD did have a benchmark dedicated for their service to the NGS. How can we show or prove that our efforts, run by ourselves right now, are worthy of such national attention as we think they are? I haven't phrased what I mean here to my satisfaction, but that's much of the gist of it.

 

5) Organizing Contests

Taking what 2oldfarts is (are?) doing and formalizing the process might be interesting, and very useful both for training and membership.

 

Overall, I would like us to start an organization closely tied to the NGS, that is useful for us, not solely just so that I can be a member of a club. I would like the end result to encapsulate the low-key esprit de corps and comradeship that we have here in this forum, without shrouding it in hoopla and mickey-mouse type stuff.

Edited March 16, 2006 by BuckBrooke

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

4) Recognition/Incentives

This is the tricky bit. I'm not sure what to say here, but would it be good to provide incentives to encourage participation? The USPSQD does it by patches (for so many points, based upon their scheme). 2oldfarts' benchmark pins are a good homegrown example.

 

Some points -

 

First, the benchmark pins are stvanme's idea and he's the one shelling out the money for getting them made. Perhaps he will express his reasons for helping out the contest one of these days, but that is for him to decide.

 

Second, you mention "training seminars". As wide spread geographically as we benchmark hunters are, won't it be difficult to get people to attend these seminars? Or will they be "Local Seminars" with just a few people attending at any one time? What would they teach at these seminars, that hasn't been discussed here in the forums?

 

Third, what is to be gained over the current situation where people can choose which forum to participate in and learn the "how to's" for their involvement in benchmark hunting? What happens to all the NGS logs filed under "Geocac" (?)? will they be changed to whatever the name of the club would be?

 

Lastly, are there even enough hard-core benchmark hunters to sustain a club? Also, most benchmark hunters tend to be solo hunters and don't go hunting benchmarks in groups.

 

John

[+BuckBrooke]

stvanme, I apologize. 2oldfarts, that's part of the issue. My idea is not necessarily to have this as a club, in the sense of dues and so forth, nor to really detract from what we're doing here. Your point about GEOCAC is well taken.

 

I envision the effort as more a way to strengthen communication between us and the NGS, and hopefully get some visibility.

 

At the least, I would like to see us (or I would like to) work with the NGS to develop a training manual, that folks could download or buy. Something set up online to really help out the folks who want to get into the field. Something perhaps titled, and excuse the Gilbert Godfried accent that comes to mind (from the Microsoft Clippy videos, making fun of the Microsoft Office paperclip helper), "So it looks like you found a benchmark. Do you need help?". Or, "Idiot's Guide to Benchmarking". Whatever.

 

As a somewhat facetious comment, it could almost be the Dave Doyle Fan Club. Wherever Dave goes in the US, whatever benchmarkers are in the area could have lunch with him. That's the low-key aspect of "trainings", which I used for lack of a better word. The folks in this group, and the hobby, seem to be focused at individual benchmarking, or at most 2 or 3 people going out on a run. Also, we seem to work well with the informal meetings that we have, swapping stories, having lunch, maybe going out for a mark or two.

 

If the NGS (or a local agency) planned to put in a station, and do an observation for a day, and it was within reasonable driving range of me, I wouldn't mind going out and watching them do it, learning a bit about the process. If Dave's placing a memorial mark for something, and he advertised the event, I don't think they'd mind if a handful of us showed up. I'm not sure that having "Ok, boys and girls, let's go out and find a benchmark" seminars would really work or be successful, but having some meet and greets and interesting/useful events on a calendar might add a little spice.

Edited March 17, 2006 by BuckBrooke

[+GEO*Trailblazer 1]

Got to thinking on the name.

We are already recognized at NGS as GEOCAC.

 

So It would be proper to keep it as such.

 

I have been in Contact with

Stephen Randall,

Lewis & Clark Project Manager

National Geodetic Survey.

 

It was with these contacts the ideas were brought forward for this project.

I am sure it is something that they will work closely with us at.

You know how busy they are with their work and endevors.

 

If we are willing to push it forward we can make it work.

 

We have a lot of good ideas.

 

First I guess we should start with a Name and a Mission.

 

Name:

 

(GEOCAC) is the GEOCACHING, NOAA and NGS program of trained geodetic-oriented volunteers. (GEOCAC) volunteers support their national and local government by assisting in geodetic control recovery, in general and for specific projects, and in public education, outreach and training.

 

Mission

 

The object of our mission is to educate and inspire the present and future generations of the

Importance of Our National Treasures.

To document and recover any and all the historical marks remaing,desroyed,set and to be set for the National Spatial Reference System.

To do this in an honest and timely matter.

 

To reach out into the public in our communities and teach,communicate and relay the impotance of NOAA-NGS,fomerly the Coast and Geodetic Survey founded by Thomas Jefferson.

 

To help sponsor events through the NGS and Geocaching.

 

[+BuckBrooke]

Geo, you're right about keeping the GEOCAC; incorporating it into the name is important, though I had thought there might be legal issues from the Geocaching perspective...dunno.

 

As to the intent of any organizing that is done, I think it can be distilled down to this. This effort would be to streamline and strengthen the relationship between the NGS and this community, for those folks in this forum who want to report to the NGS and be involved in that way. It would be essentially a codification of the NGS Groundspeak forum, and an add-on to this benchmarking forum. If you want to be involved with the NGS, so be it. If not, also fine.

 

My thoughts were that is does not/should not in any way be a detraction from this forum/community that has been built up over the last 4 years, of which I've been a part for a year and a half. Rather, this effort should provide additional opportunities to the hobby, of which people can partake if they wish.

 

That's a rather optimistic goal, however, and I'm not sure how much will take place in the next 6 months, as Casey mentioned, or the next year, for that matter.

 

Having this conversation at least will provide an opportunity for folks to say if there's anything they want done in this forum. We've discussed before, and had some action, on proposing changes to Geocaching for www.geocaching.com/mark. We've also had discussion about rewriting the Read Me text, perhaps adding a section about equipment, etc. What do people want to see happen to improve/refine the way they benchmark?

Edited March 17, 2006 by BuckBrooke

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Having this conversation at least will provide an opportunity for folks to say if there's anything they want done in this forum. We've discussed before, and had some action, on proposing changes to Geocaching for www.geocaching.com/mark. We've also had discussion about rewriting the Read Me text, perhaps adding a section about equipment, etc. What do people want to see happen to improve/refine the way they benchmark?

 

We've been down this road before. When the NGS forum was started there was much discussion about how it would improve things with the NGS and help streamline logging with them, etc. What has happened there?

 

Perhaps a Read Me First thread on the NGS forum describing the Exact process for logging with the NGS would do what you are describing?

 

Why do we need "proposing changes to Geocaching for www.geocaching.com/mark"? Is this area broken?

 

As to the Read Me text pinned at the top of the forums, please note that WE did add a post about the tools we use for benchmark hunting. Funny, no one else has seen fit to add anything to that thread. It doesn't appear to be locked, so anyone can add any helpful bits of information any time they feel the urge. Might I suggest that you try to keep the information written, so the Newbie will understand what you are saying and be able to use it. A quick check reveals that the Read Me text was started in early Nov and currently has over 2150 views. Somebody seems to be putting it to use.

 

I seem to be missing something here. What is being described seems to already be in place.

 

John

[+Klemmer]

As I mentioned previously, I'm definitely intersted in participating / helping start such an organization. My ideas for what it could be / do fall in line very close to BuckBrooke's. I guess we just have similar interests. I might tend to go a little further into the technical aspects of the hobby, being an engineer, and sometimes selling miltary grade equipment incorporating GPS receivers.

 

There is certainly room for variations on what others would like to give to / get from an such organization. All posts on this thread seem to have about the same goals, in general terms. The name of an organization is important. I spent 12+ years in government service (USAF), managing various large projects. Even the acronym / abbreviation is important. It has to "sell" in staff meetings. I guess NGS in not too different than USAF in that regard. Casey can opine on that subject, if he wants to. "Geocac" just doesn't do it for me. [sorry, Geo*Trailblazer]. It is good to keep it as the NGS recovery ID. That's fine. Try to pronounce it (some people will): "geo-kak". WAY too close to geo-kaka. If you don't have kids and are not Hispanic (or live in SW US), ask some one what kaka means . Lots of good stories there.....

 

There have been several suggestions in the same vicinity, which may boil down to:

"The National Geodetic Corps"

Each word is in there for good reasons:

The - indicates exclusive one. Not one of many

National - obvious federal implications for NGS

Geodetic - THE NGS buzzword

Corps - reminicent of USMC. Works for The National Map Corps.

finally: not pronoucable by ordinary humans, and the abbreviation TNGC is innocuous.

 

Hey - USGS has a The National Map Corps. NGS should have The National Geodetic Corps! Especially for the upcoming 200th anniversary of the US C&GS / NGS. Pitch it to the right director at HQ, it's a done deal! Of course, I realize there will be a LOT of work getting that far - but the longest jouney starts with just one step! I think we taken at least one step in this thread.

 

I LOVE the idea of "Benchmark Hunting for Dummies". See www.Dummies.com. There are several folks here who could collaborate on writing it! I'll help. Heck - there are plenty of other "Dummies" book out there that make less sense than that!

[+BuckBrooke]

John,

Again, I apologize. My vagueness astounds me. By equipment, I meant brands, locations to buy, etc. Much of what was discussed in the several excellent topics that folks have done in the past, about metal detectors, etc. For example, I've been idling going out to get a really long spooled tape measure, and now that I look in the phone book, there's several survey supply stores in Albuquerque. I'm not giving myself a pat on the back, as it didn't take a degree in rocket science to figure that out, but I had searched through several hardware stores w/out thinking to look for a survey supply store. Having more info like this would shorten the benchmarking learning curve.

 

These sorts of slow improvements are in the process of happening w/ the Read Me, as you've logged a number of posts. Also, there have been conversations about getting some of the features changed/updated in the Geocaching benchmark engine (Evenfall pushed, I think). There are also a number of individual efforts like yours, Zhanna's and holograph's that have added significantly to this group, and personally to my enjoyment in the hobby. I have a few pages, and I've had a pie in the sky idea to write a guidebook to benchmarking, but I don't have enough personal experience or time to make something good right now.

 

These changes are a matter of degrees, and what people feel will be useful. We will continue in the future to have folks create their own web pages, contests or bring unique information or perspectives to this forum. This will be piecemeal, as someone sees a need or expresses their interest. I think most everyone agrees that a large facet of this hobby is individual effort, or the occasional informal gathering. On the other hand, as mentioned before, there have been times when we've taken a proactive step to actively address unspoken, or ungathered, needs.

 

So, this conversation of creating an organization lies on the forumwide side of the continuum of individual effort -> mass effort. I think there's always room for improvement in anything in life, and that it's right to sit down every so often and say, "Ok folks, is what we have right now doing the job? If so, fine. If not, what would you like to do/have done?". As I'm one voice among many in this forum (100?), I cannot demand things to happen. I've objectively proposed/suggested some ideas, and the discussion is getting interesting.

 

I think your point is very valid. What's the use of creating an organization unless it will provide significant benefits to the folks here to warrant the effort? It's the proverbial, "What's in it for me?" question. There's a whole range of useful choices we can take, from staying the way we are, to getting jobs at the NGS. A question that needs to be addressed at the same time is, "How do we accomodate the needs and interests of everyone in the forum?". I don't like the analogy of breaking eggs to make an omelet.

 

As a further thought, one might argue that saying we need closer/more formal ties with the NGS should be a discussion in the NGS forum, but I think it's part of a larger conversation that should be in this forum.

 

GEOCAC has always reminded me of syrup of ipecac. I am attached to it, however, like you for the reporting to the NGS.

 

As for those who haven't touched this topic yet, thoughts?

 

Buckner

Edited March 17, 2006 by BuckBrooke

[68-eldo]

 

GEOCAC has always reminded me of syrup of ipecac. I am attached to it, however, like you for the reporting to the NGS.

 

As for those who haven't touched this topic yet, thoughts?

 

Buckner

 

Benchmark hunting and reporting to NGS using GEOCAC is open to everyone. What I am concerned about is that a significant percentage of the reports to NGS using GEOCAC will be of little value to them or the professionals that use the benchmarks. They will look at the GEOCAC name and see Power Squadron. My own experience with the reports from Power Squadron has been poor, and I see from the post in this forum I am not the only one that feels that way.

 

If we go to a lot of effort to bring this group up to a higher level, then I think we should have a different name to log our reports with NGS. Something that the professionals will look at and think “There’s a report we can rely on”.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

I am certainty interested is learning how to do a better job of finding and reporting benchmarks.