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Our first day event - South Wales First, 29th April - is being held in a local authority country park. The park ranger has asked if we are covered by insurance, which is something that we hadn't even thought about. He was not making it a condition of holding the event, but pointed out that it would be our event not the Council's.

 

We explained the terms of the disclaimer on all cache listings, but he drew attention to one possible loop-hole. We expect newcomers, either curious and wanting to know more or just chance visitors. If friendly and helpful cachers (aren't we all?) take these visitors under their wings to show them geocaching in action, is there a risk, albeit a very low one, of a third party claim being made against them if there is a mishap.

 

Has anyone come across this issue before - and worked out the best answer?

 

Some thoughts:

 

- preliminary enquiries suggest that third party insurance for a low risk one-day event is not expensive

 

- put up a disclaimer notice and ensure that any visiting newcomers that want to "have a go" have their attention drawn to it

 

- our own household insurance may provide the cover, although it may be necessary to advise the insurers

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Our first day event - South Wales First, 29th April - is being held in a local authority country park. The park ranger has asked if we are covered by insurance, which is something that we hadn't even thought about. He was not making it a condition of holding the event, but pointed out that it would be our event not the Council's.

 

We explained the terms of the disclaimer on all cache listings, but he drew attention to one possible loop-hole. We expect newcomers, either curious and wanting to know more or just chance visitors. If friendly and helpful cachers (aren't we all?) take these visitors under their wings to show them geocaching in action, is there a risk, albeit a very low one, of a third party claim being made against them if there is a mishap.

 

Has anyone come across this issue before - and worked out the best answer?

 

Some thoughts:

 

- preliminary enquiries suggest that third party insurance for a low risk one-day event is not expensive

 

- put up a disclaimer notice and ensure that any visiting newcomers that want to "have a go" have their attention drawn to it

 

- our own household insurance may provide the cover, although it may be necessary to advise the insurers

 

I can't really see the need for it. As long as you say 'at your own risk' to newbies, i can't see how it might go wrong.... Then again for peace of mind if it isn't too expensive?

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The "Health & Safety" police vs "Common Sense" :blink:

 

Whatever next...compulsory Risk Assessments for every cache :blink:

Don't laugh about risk assessments... I've been asked for them twice, although in each case despite offering to (and in one case) doing them, permission for the cache was denied. In each case the landowners (who were both public bodies) were looking for excuses to say no and when I closed all the loopholes they just said no anyway!

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Fact

 

As the event is on a 3rd Parties property they have the legal right to ask for insurance to be provided by the Event organiser. Unfortunately this is now the way of the world within the UK; even Jumble sales in church halls are affected by this idiotic matter. You can negotiate with them on this and explain that the activity is as much a risk as a single person visiting the Country Park, to whom they would provide indemnity in case of an accident, and see if they understand that argument.

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Moot point :

 

Can gc.com/Groundspeak legally wash their hands like that? I really doubt it. The 'you accept all responsibility... ' disclaimer is worthless because it does not absolve them of their Duty of Care.

 

Let me put it another way, if I was a litigious type person and fell over and broke my leg when doing a cache, my solicitors would put in a claim against 1) the landowner 2) the cache setter and 3) Groundspeak 4)optionally an uk based caching umbrella organisations. They do that to make sure that they catch the person who is 'responsible'. The court sorts it out.

 

Yeah, I am sure we all think it stinks and hope it never happens, but the possibility remains. Thus far, UK courts have inclined towards the traditional UK view of such things and common sense has prevailed.

 

I would avoid this all by staying in bed and hiding under my duvet, but then I may have to sue the makers of the bed and the duvet and the bulder of my house for any illness suffered from doing so! Ho hum! :blink:

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I would think that a lot depends on what is being organized.

 

Are newcomers being actively solicited ?

Will they be doing listed caches, or will there be "dummy" ones set up just for training ?

Will they be going caching with a cacher, or will they be let loose with a borrowed GPS ?

 

I think that if it is just that if someone shows an interest then someone will explain and demonstrate, then it is no different that going for a walk with someone, therefore they are responsible for themselves. If the event is targetted at newcomers and publicised as such, then the event organisers will have some liability.

 

Does anyone know a geocaching solicitor ??

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Can gc.com/Groundspeak legally wash their hands like that? I really doubt it. The 'you accept all responsibility... ' disclaimer is worthless because it does not absolve them of their Duty of Care.

 

Unsure

 

I thought that as Groundspeak operation is based in Seattle, then the laws of that State/Country are what apply, if there is no similar law of Duty of Care in Washington state then all you can do is find a loop hole in their law. I'm sure that as they have no actual UK operation, so you would have to go through the American system. It therefore might be seen that the disclaimer absolves them of blame, it depends on the state law I guess.

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Your Household insurance wont be of much use. Although it provides Public Liability (PL) cover, it only covers the P/holder and permanant residents at the risk (i.e. home) address. I think the Ranger was thinking of cover is newbies went off with anyone.

 

Your best bet is to speak to an insurance broker (in this instance, small and independent is often best!) There are plenty of policies that provide one day cover for school fetes etc, with PL cover as standard and should be fairly cheap.

 

In an ideal world, people would just accept the risk - 'Oh, I fell down. Clumsy me!' We know they don't though, so it's better to be safe than sorry when dealing with the General Public

 

good luck with your event and endeavours!

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Can gc.com/Groundspeak legally wash their hands like that?

No, they can't - at least not in the UK. A business, dealing with a consumer, can't limit their liability for death or personal injury arising from their negligence, and any attempt to do so is void. This is one of the provisions of the Unfair Contract Terms Act and dates from the 1930's, I think.

 

The main legal purpose of the "disclaimers" you're made to sign before you're allowed to go horse-riding (or whatever) is to prove that you've been warned that the activity has an element of risk, but have decided to do it anyway. This prevents you arguing - or at least makes it harder to argue - that the company was negligent because they didn't warn you that you might fall off the horse.

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Can gc.com/Groundspeak legally wash their hands like that?

No, they can't - at least not in the UK. A business, dealing with a consumer, can't limit their liability for death or personal injury arising from their negligence, and any attempt to do so is void. This is one of the provisions of the Unfair Contract Terms Act and dates from the 1930's, I think.

 

The main legal purpose of the "disclaimers" you're made to sign before you're allowed to go horse-riding (or whatever) is to prove that you've been warned that the activity has an element of risk, but have decided to do it anyway. This prevents you arguing - or at least makes it harder to argue - that the company was negligent because they didn't warn you that you might fall off the horse.

 

As already stated Groundspeak do not actually operate in the UK, so wouldn't be bound by such laws.

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Can gc.com/Groundspeak legally wash their hands like that?

No, they can't - at least not in the UK. A business, dealing with a consumer, can't limit their liability for death or personal injury arising from their negligence, and any attempt to do so is void. This is one of the provisions of the Unfair Contract Terms Act and dates from the 1930's, I think.

 

The pertinent part of this is "arising from their negligence", if you are negligent and someone is hurt, then you are liable, if their injury is due to some other factor then it is not your responsibility. Suppose for example you put a cache in a glass jar and someone dropped it and cut themselves, then it could be held to be your negligence. If however someone gets tangled in brambles or falls into a ditch near the cache then that is not your fault and no claim would succeed against you. The issue of negligence may be argued in court but if you take all reasonable steps to ensure that no one is hurt, the likelihood of you being held liable is small.

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Opinion

 

I think we can argue forever on the finer points of the law and who would be negligent, but this certainly will not change the way that insurance companies are now functioning, gone are the days of everyone taking their own responsibility and in are the days of "I tripped on your land so I want compensation". I have heard the phrase Rip off Britain many a time mentioned regarding the price of Petrol GPSr's etc and how it is cheaper in the USA! Well we followed the USA litigation model and now I'm afraid that Councils and land owners might start requiring individuals to supply indemnity against their activities; why might this happen, well our greed (the blame / claim culture) and the profits of the Insurance companies / investors. I have seen it happen in other sports I love, and think we are now just counting days till similar might happen here.

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Opinion

 

I think we can argue forever on the finer points of the law and who would be negligent, but this certainly will not change the way that insurance companies are now functioning, gone are the days of everyone taking their own responsibility and in are the days of "I tripped on your land so I want compensation". I have heard the phrase Rip off Britain many a time mentioned regarding the price of Petrol GPSr's etc and how it is cheaper in the USA! Well we followed the USA litigation model and now I'm afraid that Councils and land owners might start requiring individuals to supply indemnity against their activities; why might this happen, well our greed (the blame / claim culture) and the profits of the Insurance companies / investors. I have seen it happen in other sports I love, and think we are now just counting days till similar might happen here.

 

On which basis ... Tony, I think you'd better archive K1 and K2, Chew Valley's looking a bit dodgy, but Hey "Circumf" is OK, all you need is a bit of maths. Oh but, don't forget poor old Johnny with a grade "J" in O'level math. He's thick as PigS**t, but we can't exclude him, can we... :P

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Opinion

 

I think we can argue forever on the finer points of the law and who would be negligent, but this certainly will not change the way that insurance companies are now functioning, gone are the days of everyone taking their own responsibility and in are the days of "I tripped on your land so I want compensation". I have heard the phrase Rip off Britain many a time mentioned regarding the price of Petrol GPSr's etc and how it is cheaper in the USA! Well we followed the USA litigation model and now I'm afraid that Councils and land owners might start requiring individuals to supply indemnity against their activities; why might this happen, well our greed (the blame / claim culture) and the profits of the Insurance companies / investors. I have seen it happen in other sports I love, and think we are now just counting days till similar might happen here.

 

On which basis ... Tony, I think you'd better archive K1 and K2, Chew Valley's looking a bit dodgy, but Hey "Circumf" is OK, all you need is a bit of maths. Oh but, don't forget poor old Johnny with a grade "J" in O'level math. He's thick as PigS**t, but we can't exclude him, can we... :P

Clarification

 

I have caved for many years and up to 2003 I did not need insurance to do this, then land owners started requesting that it was compulsory on their land and things went mad. Of the historic BCRA insurance there was not a single claim in the 25 years it had run (this was club insurance) but the Insurance companies blew the whistle and said it was too costly to cover.

 

Odd they had taken £5 a year off me and almost every other caver in the UK for 25 year and that was just pure profit. They then said it had to be per person (not club insurance) and that was around £25 a year! Eh! I don't get it! never a claim a proven low probability of risk but an 500% increase. Reason the insurance companies have cottoned on that people will pay to play their sport or run a Jumble sale.

 

They are now also making landowners more responsible for activities on their land; some areas I used to cave are now very controlled by permits and gating systems and the landowner controls these in many cases, and without proof of personal insurance you're not getting in.

 

How long till we might be deemed a risk to the landowners, that is when the Insurance companies will start to bite. Why do they need to do this? Well profit; and because so many claim whiplash after every minor bump, we only have ourselves to blame for our greed.

 

Both sides are wrong, it's time we were all more honest about what we need to claim because it hurts us more than the companies.

Edited by Moote
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you cn only be successfully sued if you have been negligent in some way. but the landowners acan request that you take the responsibilty as you have invited the people there.

 

go and check out a one day event ins policy, shouldn't cost too much. disclaimers cannot protect you from a negligent act on your part.

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Opinion

 

I think we can argue forever on the finer points of the law and who would be negligent, but this certainly will not change the way that insurance companies are now functioning, gone are the days of everyone taking their own responsibility and in are the days of "I tripped on your land so I want compensation". I have heard the phrase Rip off Britain many a time mentioned regarding the price of Petrol GPSr's etc and how it is cheaper in the USA! Well we followed the USA litigation model and now I'm afraid that Councils and land owners might start requiring individuals to supply indemnity against their activities; why might this happen, well our greed (the blame / claim culture) and the profits of the Insurance companies / investors. I have seen it happen in other sports I love, and think we are now just counting days till similar might happen here.

 

On which basis ... Tony, I think you'd better archive K1 and K2, Chew Valley's looking a bit dodgy, but Hey "Circumf" is OK, all you need is a bit of maths. Oh but, don't forget poor old Johnny with a grade "J" in O'level math. He's thick as PigS**t, but we can't exclude him, can we... :smile:

Clarification

 

I have caved for many years and up to 2003 I did not need insurance to do this, then land owners started requesting that it was compulsory on their land and things went mad. Of the historic BCRA insurance there was not a single claim in the 25 years it had run (this was club insurance) but the Insurance companies blew the whistle and said it was too costly to cover.

 

Odd they had taken £5 a year off me and almost every other caver in the UK for 25 year and that was just pure profit. They then said it had to be per person (not club insurance) and that was around £25 a year! Eh! I don't get it! never a claim a proven low probability of risk but an 500% increase. Reason the insurance companies have cottoned on that people will pay to play their sport or run a Jumble sale.

 

They are now also making landowners more responsible for activities on their land; some areas I used to cave are now very controlled by permits and gating systems and the landowner controls these in many cases, and without proof of personal insurance you're not getting in.

 

How long till we might be deemed a risk to the landowners, that is when the Insurance companies will start to bite. Why do they need to do this? Well profit; and because so many claim whiplash after every minor bump, we only have ourselves to blame for our greed.

 

Both sides are wrong, it's time we were all more honest about what we need to claim because it hurts us more than the companies.

 

Ok! here is my two pennies worth.

 

If you just tell people that you will be at a certain place, (Country park) the land ownwer does not have to ask you for insurance cover, as HE should have it already public liablilty for his land. (If it is open to public access)

If you invite people to a certain place for an event, then thats taken as an organised event which may need insurance. Again if it has public access, he should have insurance. The only insurance that may be applicable is on the caches themselves! say...someone opens a cache and cuts there finger on the container, they then pass out because they can't stand the sight of blood, falling and cutting there head open on the only stone for miles, then you are resposible, beacsue you told them to search for the cache.

 

If a leg is broken because of uneven ground that the person was not made aware of at a private event, then its the Land owners fault anyway for not informing you that the ground could hurt you! (Sorry, but I have just been through a claim like this with Billing Aquadrome at Northampton)

 

Just remember that you can not insure for the same thing twice! so someone falls and claims against you for damaged clothes caused by blood after a fall, and the land owner for a cut knee after a fall, one of the insurance covers will be invalid!

 

Best of luck with the mine field!

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Ok! here is my two pennies worth.

 

If you just tell people that you will be at a certain place, (Country park) the land ownwer does not have to ask you for insurance cover, as HE should have it already public liablilty for his land. (If it is open to public access)

If you invite people to a certain place for an event, then thats taken as an organised event which may need insurance. Again if it has public access, he should have insurance. The only insurance that may be applicable is on the caches themselves! say...someone opens a cache and cuts there finger on the container, they then pass out because they can't stand the sight of blood, falling and cutting there head open on the only stone for miles, then you are resposible, beacsue you told them to search for the cache.

 

If a leg is broken because of uneven ground that the person was not made aware of at a private event, then its the Land owners fault anyway for not informing you that the ground could hurt you! (Sorry, but I have just been through a claim like this with Billing Aquadrome at Northampton)

 

Just remember that you can not insure for the same thing twice! so someone falls and claims against you for damaged clothes caused by blood after a fall, and the land owner for a cut knee after a fall, one of the insurance covers will be invalid!

 

Best of luck with the mine field!

Opinion

 

But if the Landowner's Insurance Company places a clause within the contract that a 3rd Party events require their own insurance, then the liability is passed onto the 3rd party (if they have been correctly informed you that they require your own insurance). One of the rules of setting any cache is that the cache setter should seek the permission of the Landowner, so events arranged in Country Parks etc are no different in that respect. As you pointed out the Landowner has a vicarious liability but if the event organiser had been informed that insurance was required and he neglected the demand and carried on regardless then the Landowner could take action (probably through his insurance company) against the Event organiser.

 

Thinking about this overnight I did come up with a cunning plan that would usually work. Here goes:

  • Find a good Pub next to or near a Country Park
  • Get the permission of the Pub for the event to be held there
  • Set some caches in the Country Park (If there are none already) and gain the approval of the Country Park’s Warden, for these caches (I believe a good tact is to point them to the UK Government who I believe recognise Geocaching as a recreational activity with health benefits)
  • Setup the Event in the Pub with GC.com, and mention in the page that it is next to the Country Park which has x number of caches.

That is it simple really the Event is not actually arranged on the Parks ground, and it would be the individual cachers who take the initiative to go into the Country Park to cache; this does not break any GC.com rules and certainly does not require the Landowners permission as the event is not within their property.

 

I guess that the only tough bit is gaining permission to place Geocaches on the land but the GAGB might be able to help and most certainly will give advice on how you should proceed with this matter

Edited by Moote
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I would add my two pennies to those of Roving Rangies as modified by Moote.

Last year I organized a ramble in a country park (which I now see has a Pieman cache) and went to see the warden to be told that if there were more than four of us she would require me to submit a risk assessment - then made the intelligent suggestion that I should tell her that a number of friends would be walking together in the park - so we did on our way to the pub!

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then made the intelligent suggestion that I should tell her that a number of friends would be walking together in the park - so we did on our way to the pub!

 

The problem may lie with this quote from the event page :

The event will be run as a means of introducing newcomers to geocaching and will be advertised by the Council as part of their programme of events.
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The event will be run as a means of introducing newcomers to geocaching and will be advertised by the Council as part of their programme of events.

 

Using the suggestion I made of using a pub next to or near the Country Park, then the fact that some cachers take newcomers into the area is not the Event organisers responsibility; therefore the onus of insurance is not upon the Organisers head and passes squarely back to the Council concerned, as no event took part on their property.

Edited by Moote.
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Now an easy solution to your conundrums and ruminations......

 

Hold the event in the land of the enlightened ...Scotland..... :anibad:

 

Extract from Scottish outdoor access code....

 

3.11 There are also many natural hazards, such as uneven ground, rough

paths, cliffs, steep and rocky ground, fast-flowing rivers and deep water with

undercurrents. For some activities, such as mountaineering and canoeing, these

challenges provide the basis for people’s enjoyment of the outdoors. Whatever

your activity, you need to take account of natural hazards, use common sense

and take care. There is a longstanding legal principle called “volenti non fit

injuria” which means that a person taking access will generally be held to have

accepted any obvious risks or risks which are inherent in the activities they are

undertaking.

 

Slainge FFB

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Thanks to everyone for their comments. Although we hoped that someone might have gone through all this before, we also expected to be disappointed.

There were some very serious points made, indications that this could be the tip of the iceberg but, most important, plenty of humour. Regardless of the problems, long may the fun continue.

Rest assured that we haven't been deterred - the event will go on. We will investigate event insurance, precautionary notices and advice to be given at the time to newbies, etc.

We will post another message (or two) here to explain what we do and any lessons learned in the process.

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