Another Example Of A TB Prison Gone Wrong

[+the hermit crabs]

This cache is another example of why TB hotels with one-for-one trading rules are not a good idea. When something goes wrong, a lot of bugs can disappear at once.

 

This cache had ten bugs in it, with a rule on the page to always keep it stocked with that number of bugs. It was removed by the police ("lots of police and fire vehicles", it says in the log). Not sure what will happen to the TBs.

 

(I was lucky: one of my TBs was in it, and it was retrieved by the first (and only) finder just before the police removed the cache.)

[+AuntieWeasel]

Ugh. Plus, if this is a brand new cache starting with ten bugs, it means the owner spent some time visiting local caches to take bugs out.

 

A ten bug rule...that's just so wrong.

[+the hermit crabs]

Ugh. Plus, if this is a brand new cache starting with ten bugs, it means the owner spent some time visiting local caches to take bugs out.

 

A ten bug rule...that's just so wrong.

"Some time" is right -- he's been collecting them and holding them for months. (He had mine since September.) Most were picked up some time this fall and winter, although he'd had one of them since last February.

[+SeabeckTribe]

Hopefully this ammo can cache was well identified on the outside as a geocache container!

[CacheNCarryMA]

It's the TB Hotel from Hell-ertown!

[+Celticwulf]

Any more info on this one? I'm just curious, because if the bugs are gone for good, I wonder how the hider feels about getting that many travel bugs DOA at once, especially if they're not his own.

 

 

Celticwulf

[+the hermit crabs]

Any more info on this one? I'm just curious, because if the bugs are gone for good, I wonder how the hider feels about getting that many travel bugs DOA at once, especially if they're not his own.

 

 

Celticwulf

The person who picked up my TB shortly before the cache was taken away apparently knows some of the people involved; he says that the owner has talked to the police but that nothing has been decided yet. They're hoping to get the bugs back eventually.

[+blackjack65]

..he's been collecting them and holding them for months. (He had mine since September.) Most were picked up some time this fall and winter, although he'd had one of them since last February.

Since a year ago? Which TB was that?

That cacher definitly does not understand the goal of Travel Bugs,

and his prison should be raided as soon as TBs are put in it,

if he/she ever puts one out again.

Edited February 15, 2006 by blackjack65

[+TruckerGeorge]

holding onto a TB for a year just to start his own Prison? that not right, I stopped by a cache not long ago and found that the TB's had been there almost 2 months. I grabbed all of them and got them on the way again. I want my TB's to move, but I also dont want them to end up MIA either

 

TruckerGeorge

[+the hermit crabs]

..he's been collecting them and holding them for months. (He had mine since September.) Most were picked up some time this fall and winter, although he'd had one of them since last February.

Since a year ago? Which TB was that?

The Maintenance Man.

(The pickup log a year ago said "Will be placing it in one of my caches shortly.")

[+5¢]

I have a travel bug cache. It is in my front yard not 10 feet from my front door. No worries of cops, robbers, or fire department. I think I have a pretty easy goal for the cache. To quote my cache page..."I have no stipulations on this cache like take a bug only if you leave a bug except lets leave this cache as a bug cache and not leave anything else in it except sig cards and such." I don't understand why, except for laziness to rebug their own caches, people have the one for one rule, or other rules. I keep a good look on my area and if a bug gets dropped into an older cache, I pick it up and drop it in my cache. If it sits for more than a few weeks, I move it on in my next caching adventure. I look at it as good travel bug doing. I have told my local cachers if they have a bug they can't move, come over and drop it off, I will take care of it.

 

Now for caches I come across with a rule on trading, I will be honest, I take everyone out of the cache. I do it because I realize that caches like this hold up bug activity. If it makes people mad, tough doodie.

 

I think if a cache page has rules with travel bug trades, they ought not be approved, and if someone sneeks around and adds it to the cache page, a SBA should be posted.

[+SueEmAll]

I am fairly new to the sport and as of yet have not taken a travel bug because I thought I was not permitted to do so unless I left one. Other than creating my own, how am I to ever get one to trade with? If I ignore the rule of take one only if leaving one, will the geo police be angry with me?

[+Team Snorkasaurus]

Hiya SueEmAll,

 

Travel-Bugs are not the same as regular trade items and you can usually take a bug without trading unless the specific cache requests it. One to one exchanges of TBs are great, but not usually necessary. Travel-Bugs want to move and achieve their stated goals, if you can help a bug move closer to its goal then go for it!

 

Happy Geocaching!

 

[+Cyclometh]

I am fairly new to the sport and as of yet have not taken a travel bug because I thought I was not permitted to do so unless I left one. Other than creating my own, how am I to ever get one to trade with? If I ignore the rule of take one only if leaving one, will the geo police be angry with me?

 

Travel bugs aren't trade items, you can take them without leaving anything. My first TB got picked up tonight by someone who didn't leave anything. Travel bugs are supposed to move toward their destination.

[+Bullfrog Eh-Team]

I just want my travel bugs to move! But, I also accept that the farther north (In Canada!) they get, the less winter activity is likely. It's tough (but fun!) to be caching when you're up to your nubbins in snow.

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

I have a travel bug cache. It is in my front yard not 10 feet from my front door.

 

January 28 by 5¢ (671 found)

Bud drop

December 3, 2005 by 5¢ (671 found)

Bud drop

 

 

Just who do you have in that thing?

I ever make it over that way I'll have to find this cache.

[+denali7]

I have a travel bug cache. It is in my front yard not 10 feet from my front door.

 

January 28 by 5¢ (671 found)

Bud drop

December 3, 2005 by 5¢ (671 found)

Bud drop

 

 

Just who do you have in that thing?

I ever make it over that way I'll have to find this cache.

 

if i put a TB hotel in my yard, could you do a coors drop? thanks!!

[+5¢]

I have a travel bug cache. It is in my front yard not 10 feet from my front door.

 

January 28 by 5¢ (671 found)

Bud drop

December 3, 2005 by 5¢ (671 found)

Bud drop

 

 

Just who do you have in that thing?

I ever make it over that way I'll have to find this cache.

 

if i put a TB hotel in my yard, could you do a coors drop? thanks!!

 

That would be against the cache guidelines, but I would knock on the door and give them to you.

[+Colorado Cacher]

Politely go and ask for the container back.

[+The Leprechauns]

Thread discussing news article about the TB Hotel.

[Ferreter5]

This cache had ten bugs in it, with a rule on the page to always keep it stocked with that number of bugs.

These kinds of trading "rules" are silly.

 

I can understand that maybe a well intentioned hotel owner is trying to keep one finder from hogging all the travel bugs they might find in the hotel, but really how does listing this trading "rule" in the cache listing keep a finder from taking all the bugs anyway?

 

I thought the whole idea of a travel bug hotel was to provide an easily accessible cache near common routes of travel so people passing through could take/drop bugs that they can help/are helping along.

 

Trading rules be darned! Travel bug hotels that are really prisons also be darned (e.g. putting one on top of a mountain that maybe one person a year might visit).

Edited February 16, 2006 by Ferreter5

[+blackjack65]

Thread discussing news article about the TB Hotel.

If he refuses to cooporate with the police,

I see very little chance that the 10 Travel Bugs

he had hoarded in that cache will ever

see the inside of another cache again.

[+The Leprechauns]

Ugh. Plus, if this is a brand new cache starting with ten bugs, it means the owner spent some time visiting local caches to take bugs out.

 

A ten bug rule...that's just so wrong.

"Some time" is right -- he's been collecting them and holding them for months. (He had mine since September.) Most were picked up some time this fall and winter, although he'd had one of them since last February.

I checked the bug pages. Times from pickup to dropoff are roughly as follows:

5 weeks

5 weeks

7 weeks

9 weeks

3 months

3 months

4 months

4 months

5 months

5 months

11.5 months

[+Fren-Z]

I'm glad everyone has such a positive attitude. I was intending on trying to get everything back but with threats of caches being raided and such maybe I am better off justy letting them all die there. In every other forum I got nothing but support but I see that isn't happening here. I guess one can't have a cache in planning for an extended period of time.

 

Happy caching

Fren-Z

[+Metaphor]

I checked the bug pages. Times from pickup to dropoff are roughly as follows:

5 weeks

5 weeks

7 weeks

9 weeks

3 months

3 months

4 months

4 months

5 months

5 months

11.5 months

 

I guess one can't have a cache in planning for an extended period of time.

 

I have two bugs that I am holding, one since before the New Year. I will be taking them overseas with me in April. However, I emailed the owners to ask for permission to hold them for that long. Both owners agreed and gave me their approval. If I had said that I wanted to hold on to them for 11.5 months to put them in a local tb hotel I was planning, I really doubt that I would have gotten a thumbs-up. I wouldn't give an approval for that to happen with one of my own bugs.

 

I was intending on trying to get everything back but with threats of caches being raided and such maybe I am better off justy letting them all die there...In every other forum I got nothing but support but I see that isn't happening here.

 

And I bet you will lose that support very quickly, if you don't make an effort to retrieve those bugs. Do the right thing and try.

[+the hermit crabs]

I'm glad everyone has such a positive attitude. I was intending on trying to get everything back but with threats of caches being raided and such maybe I am better off justy letting them all die there. In every other forum I got nothing but support but I see that isn't happening here. I guess one can't have a cache in planning for an extended period of time.

 

Happy caching

Fren-Z

In the other forums, the support you were receiving was based on the fact that you followed the right procedure when you set up your cache -- you asked for and received permission, you labeled it to identify it, you hid it properly, and still it was taken away. If this had been a regular cache, I'm sure you would be receiving nothing but well-deserved positive support.

 

The criticism here is based on the fact that the cache was called a TB "hotel" but was in fact a TB prison, in which bugs would be held hostage unless new prisoners can take their place. That goes totally against the mission of travel bugs, which is to travel. They are not trade items, and cache owners have no right to dictate how and by whom they should be moved.

 

Here are a few of many threads on this topic. Read them; maybe then you'll understand where the criticism is coming from:

Opinions Needed, The one for one rule.

Tb Hotel Trade Rules, Leave one to take one?

Let's Ban Travel Bug Hotels, Why make bug hotels? What's the point?

"Don't take a TB without leaving one" - WHY?

 

You might also want to take a look at this travel bug: Get Out of (TB) Jail Free

 

And no, there is nothing wrong at all with having a cache in the planning stages for an extended period of time. But holding onto other peoples' bugs for months and months while you're planning it is wrong, though -- especially when the plan is just to imprison them anyway.

 

I hope you get your cache back. I hope they allow you to put it back out. And I really hope that you remove the one-for-one trade restrictions that change this cache from a convenient place to facilitate bug movement into a place of incarceration.

 

(edited to add one more link)

Edited February 18, 2006 by the hermit crabs

[+charliewhiskey]

I am the owner of one of the travel bugs involved. Fren-Z, please take to heart the eloquent comments posted by the hermit crabs. Travel bugs like to TRAVEL.

[+The Leprechauns]

I guess one can't have a cache in planning for an extended period of time.

It takes six months planning to toss an ammo box in some woods between a park and ride lot and an expressway, where finders are in plain view of muggles?

 

 

I don't have a perfect record either for releasing travel bugs within 2 weeks of retrieval. But I have *never* held that many bugs for that long, all at once. When I hide a cache, I'll want to have one or two travel bugs in it for the early finders to move along. I will either start one of my own, or I will collect some from caches I visit within the month prior to hiding the cache.

[+ChileHead]

I ignore travel bug prison rules. If the prison has a take one leave one policy, I will generally take as many as I can reasonably place.

 

The bugs aren't the property of the cache or the cache owner. He/she can make no rules on their use.

[+ZackJones]

While caching my way back from Florida this past Friday I stopped at one TB hotel and snagged 5 TBs but didn't leave any. 4 of the 5 had been sitting in the cache for 30 days or more and the one that had been in there less than 30 days I could help it on its mission so I grabbed it.

 

What I really wish Groundspeak would do is to allow us to mark a TB as missing -- especially if we visited the cache and personally verified that the TB was not in the cache.

[+TruckerGeorge]

While caching my way back from Florida this past Friday I stopped at one TB hotel and snagged 5 TBs but didn't leave any. 4 of the 5 had been sitting in the cache for 30 days or more and the one that had been in there less than 30 days I could help it on its mission so I grabbed it.

 

What I really wish Groundspeak would do is to allow us to mark a TB as missing -- especially if we visited the cache and personally verified that the TB was not in the cache.

 

I was at a cache today, this is my second time to it to drop off and pick up tb's and there are 2 listed on the page that are no longer in the cache. they havent been in there for about 2 months from what I could tell from the logs.

 

TruckerGeorge

[+Deliveryguy428]

First off thankfully the police did not do to the cache what happens most of the time when police are called...IE---BOOM...bye bye cache.

 

Poor planning on the owners part from what it seems in all aspects of this topic.

 

As for the TB rule, there is a hotel I vist from time to time when I am back in my hometown. Before I go I always check to see what TBs are in there, how long they have been there and where they are going/coming from. I'll take a few return back to school with them and spread them out in local caches. The next time I go home I try to make sure I have a few TBs with me to replace in the hotel.

[+The Leprechauns]

What I really wish Groundspeak would do is to allow us to mark a TB as missing -- especially if we visited the cache and personally verified that the TB was not in the cache.

While I know your intentions are good, your suggestion is a bad idea because of the potential for jerks to cause mischief. Think of the people who will take the time to virtually move a travel bug around the world because its tag number is displayed in a photo. They would have a field day if anyone could mark a bug as missing from a cache. Ditto that for geocachers who are feuding. "I don't like Cacher X. What can I do to make life miserable for him? I've already deleted his logs on my caches. Hmmmm, I think I'll mark all his travel bugs as missing."

 

There are already two people with front line responsibility and ability to mark a TB missing: the bug owner and the cache owner. If writing to both those people doesn't work, then the website or a site volunteer can assist in moving a TB to "an unknown location."

[+ZackJones]

There are already two people with front line responsibility and ability to mark a TB missing: the bug owner and the cache owner. If writing to both those people doesn't work, then the website or a site volunteer can assist in moving a TB to "an unknown location."

 

I don't think that just any cacher should have the abilty to mark a TB as missing. Perhaps Groundspeak could create a TB Mover (Junkie??) account type that could perform this sort of function. I would be happy to keep TB listings on cache pages for my state (Georgia) current. I've tried emailing and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I just know how disappointed I feel when I travel to a specific cache in search of a TB only to find it's no longer there

[+charliewhiskey]

I've tried emailing and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I just know how disappointed I feel when I travel to a specific cache in search of a TB only to find it's no longer there

I too hate the disappointment of searching for a listed TB that's missing. I've tried emailing cache and TB owners too and, like you said, often it works but sometimes it doesn't.

 

I appreciate it when a previous searcher has made a note in the cache log if a listed TB isn't there, so now I make a point of doing the same.

[+ZackJones]

I appreciate it when a previous searcher has made a note in the cache log if a listed TB isn't there, so now I make a point of doing the same.

 

Yes, I like that as well. I try to check the actual cache page before going out to hunt for the cache just to see what bugs are still in the cache and what new bugs may have been added since I last checked the page.

[+q22q17]

Any more info on this one? I'm just curious, because if the bugs are gone for good, I wonder how the hider feels about getting that many travel bugs DOA at once, especially if they're not his own.

Celticwulf

 

As one of the TB owners, it's a bit frustrating to watch and wait to hear of the outcome of this. I did mistakenly post a comment on the cache page, and should have known better and come to the forum to find out what the discussion was about this cache.

 

Has there been any news from Fren-Z and has he/she recovered the contents from the police?

 

My Roaming Mickey travel bug was one of my very first releases.

[+blackjack65]

As one of the TB owners, it's a bit frustrating to watch and wait to hear of the outcome of this. I did mistakenly post a comment on the cache page, and should have known better and come to the forum to find out what the discussion was about this cache.

 

Has there been any news from Fren-Z and has he/she recovered the contents from the police?

 

My Roaming Mickey travel bug was one of my very first releases.

See here:

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php...dpost&p=2051421

[+Latitude 32]

I was just about to start a thread asking if "TB Hotels" were worth it. I just got back from finding a plundered "TB Hotel". Luckly, the muggle just scattered all of the contents about... Well in about 4 inches of water. The other lucky thing is there were only two bugs in the cache, and I recovered them both. But, even non-urban caches are at risk. We had a rural cache get burned up here (San Diego Area) in a wildfire. This cache had over ten bugs in it. I will no longer put a TB in one of these caches. We pay for these tags and even though we run a risk when we launch them, they are still ours. Some bugs have real sentimental value to their owners. I have one that I set free days after my son was born. The tag is named after him and has his photo attached. It's been crusing the country now for almost three years. I'm sure most of us have also seen bugs that are traveling memorials to loved ones who have passed away. Two new rules for me... No more Hotels/drops/whatever you want to call them and oh, yeah... No more geocoins. All of mine were stolen... But, that's another thread.

[+Pink Paisley]

I was just about to start a thread asking if "TB Hotels" were worth it. I just got back from finding a plundered "TB Hotel". Luckly, the muggle just scattered all of the contents about... Well in about 4 inches of water. The other lucky thing is there were only two bugs in the cache, and I recovered them both. But, even non-urban caches are at risk. We had a rural cache get burned up here (San Diego Area) in a wildfire. This cache had over ten bugs in it. I will no longer put a TB in one of these caches. We pay for these tags and even though we run a risk when we launch them, they are still ours. Some bugs have real sentimental value to their owners. I have one that I set free days after my son was born. The tag is named after him and has his photo attached. It's been crusing the country now for almost three years. I'm sure most of us have also seen bugs that are traveling memorials to loved ones who have passed away. Two new rules for me... No more Hotels/drops/whatever you want to call them and oh, yeah... No more geocoins. All of mine were stolen... But, that's another thread.

[+Pink Paisley]

Whoops.

 

I am converted from the use of TB Hotel / Prisons - call them what you will. Cache owners are well intended as a rule but I had a TB Hotel removed.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...d2-dc13618039a7

 

It was well out of the way and well hidden (at least initially). When removed, it contained a number of TBs and I felt awful.

 

I won't setr another one.

 

PP

[+Latitude 32]

Whoops.

 

I am converted from the use of TB Hotel / Prisons - call them what you will. Cache owners are well intended as a rule but I had a TB Hotel removed.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...d2-dc13618039a7

 

It was well out of the way and well hidden (at least initially). When removed, it contained a number of TBs and I felt awful.

 

I won't setr another one.

 

PP

 

I agree that the intensions are good but, these caches are not worth the risk. Just takes one non-cacher and poof! Cache is gone, along with all of the bugs inside.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Whoops.

 

I am converted from the use of TB Hotel / Prisons - call them what you will. Cache owners are well intended as a rule but I had a TB Hotel removed.

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...d2-dc13618039a7

 

It was well out of the way and well hidden (at least initially). When removed, it contained a number of TBs and I felt awful.

 

I won't setr another one.

 

PP

 

Have you considered moving the lost travel bugs to the 'missing' status?

[+Highpointer]

Here is another reason why I don't like "travel bug hotels", and a major reason why the administrators who approve caches should not approve any new "travel bug hotels" unless specific rules are in place to ensure the safety and security of such caches. Here is such a cache near Sky Harbor International Airport in Phoenix that apparently got muggled only three weeks after it was made :

 

Travel Bug Transit Center

It was a tube hidden in a clump of high grass surrounding a telephone pole, at the end of a cul-de-sac in an industrial area on the south side of the airport. This was a very exposed cache, and I knew that it would not last long. Any geocacher with some experience should know that this is not a good place for a cache, especially a cache to leave multiple travel bugs.

 

It appears that approximately eight travel bugs were lost. I visited this cache, and I my opinion it was a cache that should never have been approved. It was made by an inexperienced geocacher who had an account for less than a month. I wrote to him privately to express my concerns (after I got his permission to do so), but he failed to fix the cache before it was too late.

 

Is there anyone out there who agrees with me that "travel bug hotels" should be banned, or at least be approved only with specific restrictions in place, such as being in a secure location (i.e. on private property with permission) or being lockable and securely attached to a fixed object in such a way that it cannot be easily removed?

 

Ken Akerman (a.k.a. Highpointer)

[+blackjack65]

...or being lockable and securely attached to a fixed object in such a way that it cannot be easily removed?

That would not prevent it from being emptied.

[+Highpointer]

...or being lockable and securely attached to a fixed object in such a way that it cannot be easily removed?

That would not prevent it from being emptied.

Any cache has the potential to be lost, stolen, or ransacked. However, good cache placement and security features can reduce the risk. If a cache is intended as a drop-off location for travel bugs, it should be lockable with a combination lock posted on the cache description. Thus, a person who finds the cache without the cache description would be unable to open the container. Such a cache should also be "Members Only" to restrict the cache to serious geocachers who are not likely to plunder it.

[evilcacher]

I have a travel bug cache. It is in my front yard not 10 feet from my front door. No worries of cops, robbers, or fire department.

 

hmmmm....how about worries from me?....LOL...If I am ever in the neighborhood I will have to stop by...

[evilcacher]

 

Is there anyone out there who agrees with me that "travel bug hotels" should be banned, or at least be approved only with specific restrictions in place, such as being in a secure location (i.e. on private property with permission) or being lockable and securely attached to a fixed object in such a way that it cannot be easily removed?

 

Ken Akerman (a.k.a. Highpointer)

 

I actually agree with this. I locked the infamous travel bug prison oklahoma branch when I started it and then secure it from the inside to keep it from being stolen. Its also marked clearly as to what it is and where to find info on them. The first one was either stolen or washed away so I made sure the second one would not come to the same fate.

 

I.T.B.P. Oklahoma Branch

Edited March 3, 2006 by evilcacher

[+BlueDeuce]

[+The Leprechauns]

Is there anyone out there who agrees with me that "travel bug hotels" should be banned, or at least be approved only with specific restrictions in place, such as being in a secure location (i.e. on private property with permission) or being lockable and securely attached to a fixed object in such a way that it cannot be easily removed?

 

Ken Akerman (a.k.a. Highpointer)

There are many people that think there are already too many listing rules. Do you really want to entrust the site volunteers to be judges of cache quality? How do they tell that from their desks?

 

From the facts given, I don't see which provision of the listing guidelines was violated. Can you point me to the specific provision in the listing guidelines that supports your contention that the cache reviewer should never have published the cache?

Edited March 3, 2006 by The Leprechauns