I Need Some Informed Opinions

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Today I was benchmark hunting on the upper west side of Manhattan, NYC. I located a station desoinated "SHIRE" (PID=kU3955). Here's my GC Log

 

The station was a memorial to sailors lost from the U.S.S. New Hampshire and was built by crew mwmbers. It was established as a third order horizontal control station in 1930.

 

The essence of the description is

A BAND STAND ABOUT 14 METERS IN DIAMETER, WITH LARGE GRANITE PILLARS SUPPORTING A RED CONICAL ROOF. IT IS A MEMORIAL ERECTED BY CREW OF U.S.S. NEW HAMPSHIRE FOR LOST SHIPMATES. STATION IS FINIAL IN CENTER OF ROOF. A CROSS WAS CHISELED ON FLOOR BENEATH THE FINIAL.

but the datasheet also has the line:

MARKER: X = CHISELED CROSS

 

THe memorial is long gone as are all the reference marks, but thec circular area is there in exactly the right place.

 

Here's the area:

The "floor"of the New Hampshire Memorial

 

And right in the center, here's the chiseled cross:

Chiseled cross from "SHIRE"

 

So my questions is, should I log this as FOUND or NOT FOUND?

 

Would (could) a surveyor use the cross as a control point? (I know now-a-days they would likely use a fancy GPS, but play along with this if you will)

 

Would the NGS consider the station as still in it's geodetic control network?

 

I'll put this question on both forums to solicit both professional and hobiest opinions.

 

Thanks

Pb

[+Shifty]

BTW, the admin gods get a little testy with double posts like this one..

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Papa Bear,

 

It reads as if they used the Finial for an intersection station, but the actual benchmark is the chiseled cross. I would call it a found based on the marker type listed on the datasheet with a note that the Finial is now gone.

 

John

[+Shorelander]

Out of curiousity, do you know what happened to the memorial?

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Out of curiousity, do you know what happened to the memorial?

Sorry I don't know.

 

I been by this place many times over the years and never knew there was anything at all here (except a curious round area) until I read the datasheet.

 

Pb

Edited February 8, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[+Cyclometh]

Interesting. The marker was the finial, but an X was chiseled. Since it's a horizontal control station, one assumes that the chiseled cross could be used.

 

That's a weird one.

 

Personally, I'd either ask NGS or log it as "Not Found" with a description of the remains of the station. I'm not sure if something like that is usable as a station or not.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Papa Bear NYC,

 

You have chosen a curious mark here.

 

When you read the description of this mark it mentions both "Reference Marks" & "Witness Marks"

 

Quote- REFERENCE MARK IS A STANDARD DISK CEMENTED IN DRILL HOLE IN CONCRETE WALK ON W SIDE OF RIVERSIDE DRIVE.

WITNESS MARK NO.1 IS A CROSS CUT IN TOP OF CURB ON E SIDE OF DRIVE. AN ARROW POINTING TO STATION WAS ALSO CUT IN CURB S OF THE CROSS.

WITNESS MARK NO. 2 IS CENTER OF SMALL DRINKING FOUNTAIN. -Unquote.

 

Now the 2 questions are...What is a witness mark? First time we've seen that identifier. And question number 2...Why would you have a reference mark if the benchmark is a "Finial"? For the chiseled cross we can see having the extra marks, but for an intersection station it seems out of place.

 

Were any of the Reference/Witness marks still there?

 

Where are the pros when we need their help?

 

John & Shirley

[Z15]

KU3955'STATION IS FINIAL IN CENTER OF ROOF. A CROSS WAS CHISELED ON

FLOOR BENEATH THE FINIAL.

 

This is a somewhat unusual station. But since it is a 3rd order station it was not occupied, only sighted on from other stations. I think the cut cross was put there because they could and how the managed to get it centered under the finial is the question.

 

What I would do;

 

call it MARK NOT FOUND as the station is/was the finial. I would add text that the chisled cross was found as decribed and note if any of the RM were found or not found. If the RM's are gone, there is no way to confirm the cut cross. Thats about all you can do.

 

I would not call it destroyed since part of it still remains. Who knows, maybe some day NGS will come along and set a disk and use if for GPS.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Z15

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Papa Bear NYC,

 

...

 

Were any of the Reference/Witness marks still there?

 

John & Shirley

Alas, there were no marks found. The west side walk in front of the site is now asphalt, not concrete. Pehaps that disk is still down there under the asphalt. I searched the entire length of the east curb (across the street) from 151st to 152nd Street to no avail. It appears to be new curbing. It looked like stone but it may be some modern concoction. It was shiny, unscratched and with very little grime. Not your typical ancient looking concrete or granite. And forget about the small drinking fountain.

 

Interestingly, look at the box score:

KU3955|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

KU3955| PID Reference Object Distance Geod. Az |

KU3955| dddmmss.s |

KU3955| CB7395 SHIRE WM 2 18.860 METERS 06734 |

KU3955| CB7394 SHIRE WM 1 37.640 METERS 10445 |

KU3955| CB7393 SHIRE RM 16.940 METERS 10446 |

KU3955| KU4022 MANHATTAN RIVERSIDE BAP CH TWR APPROX. 2.4 KM 2071426.5 |

KU3955| KU3891 FORT LEE CHRIST ORPH HOME FLAG APPROX. 2.2 KM 3133640.3 |

KU3955| KU3890 PALISADES APPROX. 2.5 KM 3382747.7 |

KU3955|-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

Which indicates they did some measurements when they set the cross and marks. Hardly what I would call "not occupied". And there are the notations "WM 2" and "WM 1" for the witness marks. I'm not sure what the azimuths to the local marks mean. They seem to have abreviated the usual dddmmss.s business. And note the local distances are measured to a cm accuracy. And what are those PIDs for the 3 local marks?

 

I've emailed Deb Brown and I would hope some others from the NGS might chime in.

 

On a human level, I have been able to find absolutely nothing about this monument (using Google). It may be the NGS datasheet and that crude chiseled cross are all that remains of the memory of these sailors lost at sea. Requiescat in Pacem.

 

Pb

 

EDIT

 

I just looked up the PIDs for the reference and Witness marks. It listed 3 unpublished entries:

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pid Name Lat Lon Elev O o Hv

------ ------------------------------ ---------- ----------- -------- - - --

>CB7395 SHIRE WM 2 40 49 52. /073 56 59. NN

>CB7394 SHIRE WM 1 40 49 52. /073 56 59. NN

>CB7393 SHIRE RM 40 49 52. /073 56 59. NN

 

The "NN" means "No geodetic control at this mark" (both horizontal and vertical). Not surpizing, but I'm impressed that the entries are in the database at all.

Edited February 8, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

I wanted to make one more comment on this station, particularly as to weather the chiseled cross was ever used as the station mark by the original surveyors

 

The original survey was done in 1930 by the USC&GS with the initials "CAE". It was recovered in 1932 by the USC&GS with initials "RWW".

 

There are 3 non-local stations listed in its "box score".

 

1) KU4022 MANHATTAN RIVERSIDE BAP CH TWR

2) KU3891 FORT LEE CHRIST ORPH HOME FLAG

3) KU3890 PALISADES

 

Both #1 (The Riverside Church) and #2 ("Palisads") were surveyed and recovered by the same parties at the same 2 dates.

 

#3 (Fort Lee Flag Pole) was surveyed in 1932 by RWW.

 

It is highly likely that the azimuth to both The Riverside Church (the station is the apex of the tower) and The Fort Lee flag pole (there is no line of site from the ground from this site to "SHIRE") were measured FROM "SHIRE" TO those stations since both are third order, niether had eccentrics established and one cannot even see "SHIRE" from the Fort Lee site (unless you are sitting on top of the flag pole ).

 

"Palisades" is a bolt on a rock, but there is an easy line of site to "SHIRE", so in that case the azimuth could have been measured TO "SHIRE".

 

So "SHIRE" must have been occupied in 1932 (since Fort Lee had not been established in 1930) and the azimuths must have been established by RWW.

 

So there is at least reasonable evidence that this station was occupied in 1932 and measurements taken from the cross, since this station also had no eccentric established.

 

I welcome any critique of this line of argument.

 

From a personal stand point I don't mind logging this with any reasonable status, but as is true for most of us, a "FOUND" would be nice.

 

Regards

Pb

 

As an assist in keeping the discussion in one place, I would ask all parties to reply here and not on the other forum. It was probably a mistake to open the discussion on both forums.

[+Klemmer]

Interesting stuff, Papa Bear. Not to be nit-picky, but if the mark was the finial, could it really be occupied? There seems to be contradictory info on whether the station was the finial or the chiseled cross, and when. When the bandstand was still there (1932?), I don't see how any bearing could be taken FROM the station, whether it was the finial or the chiseled cross. It seems to me that it was established as an intersection station (finial), with BEarings TO it from the other box score marks (but from a flagpole??), and they put the chiseled cross under it just as an added "Witness Mark" of sorts. As the actual position of the chiseled cross can't be determined to 3rd order (Horizontal), I lean toward calling it DESTROYED, for GC.com, but maybe NOT FOUND for NGS (just because it is so interesting!).

[+Black Dog Trackers]

IMHO, the only pertinent and logical question is whether the cross, or the finial, (or even both) is the actual KU3955 (Shire). The KU3955 description is indeterminate/contradictory because of these 2 items in it:

 

1. KU3955 'STATION IS FINIAL IN CENTER OF ROOF.

2. KU3955 _MARKER: X = CHISELED CROSS

 

The thing to do is write Deb Brown at NGS and ask her whether the station is the cross, or the finial, or both.

 

If it were me emailing Deb, I'd suggest that the description should be fixed somehow so that there's only one possible interpretation.

 

After getting an answer from Deb, you'll know how to log; found, not-found, or destroyed.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

I still have to think that the chiseled cross is the station. You do not set reference marks for an intersection station, At least I've never seen them mentioned in the written description of one.

 

The cross could have been occupied even when the 'Bandstand' was still standing. Think in terms of the bandstand being a large Gazebo, a roof with open sides. An open-air, covered bandstand would have been common back then.

 

It sounds to me like the person who wrote the recovery note used the finial as an intersection station even though the datasheet clearly states the marker = X.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Yep, it certainly could be.

 

But asking the current curator of the database (Deb) to remove/solve the inconsistency is the best course of action, I think.

 

Shall we place bets? I bet the answer is both (finial and cross), in which case, finding either one would be a find.

Edited February 9, 2006 by Black Dog Trackers

[+Cyclometh]

This is looking like someone decided to make the station more "permanent"- maybe they knew the roof was coming down, so they put the mark there?

 

I agree, it is very odd- I'm very interested to hear how this one turns out!

[+jwahl]

There are some odd comments here and on another thread that someone said a third order station was not occcupied. Almost all horizontal control stations were occupied unless they are identified as an 'intersection station'. Thus some towers are intersection stations and were not occpied. But many belfries, etc. were occupied. A point would have been carefully set up below the spire or observable object to be directly below it and it could then be occupied by an instrument or lights.

 

Other stations could sight the spire, or whatever. Anyway that's my sense of it as a surveyor that used to read a lot of datasheets. So my take on it is that in a sense both points are the 'mark'. A lot of old triangulation took advantage of existing tall structures in this fashion.

 

- jerry wahl

 

This is looking like someone decided to make the station more "permanent"- maybe they knew the roof was coming down, so they put the mark there?

 

I agree, it is very odd- I'm very interested to hear how this one turns out!

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

I also wanted to add that in my experience a band stand by definition is open on all sides except for some pillars that hold up the roof. How else could you hear the music?

 

The datasheet describes it as "A BAND STAND ... WITH LARGE GRANITE PILLARS SUPPORTING A RED CONICAL ROOF". The mental picture I had from the first was that there were no walls and that there was nothing to block views from within the structure unless you wanted to sight something where one of the pillars happened to be located.

 

I checked and (except for some pesky young tree growth), all the stations mentioned in the "box score" were visible when I stood on the floor at the chiseled cross.

Edited February 11, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC