Hints

February 4, 2006

Is it against Groundspeak/Geocaching.com rules to give out hints for other peoples caches?

I recently responded to a thread about kids caches in my area (another website forum). I responded with a really good location, informing them that the cache is quite hard to find due to heavy tree cover. Since they wanted to visit the area with a child, I offered (unsolicited) to give them a hint if they wanted (the choice was ultimately theirs, I didn't leave a hint on a public forum, that would be really bad form). I personally think DNFs (especially after long hunts) are bad for young kids with respect to the hobby. They turn young kids off the hobby imo.

Anyhow, the cache is owned by a local reviewer. I just received a fairly threatening email from this reviewer ordering me to never give out hints to any of their caches, solicited or unsolicited.

(The ironic thing is that this reviewer is on nearly every cachers phonebook in the area for dial-a-hints (except me, because I don't believe in dial-a-hints ... but that's a personal pref, I certainly wouldn't order anybody to not use dial-a-hints on my caches). Anyhoo, this reviewer is the #1 guy you go to in the area for receiving hints on other peoples caches. So I don't know why he's ordering people not to give hints on his caches.)

So, what's the official Groundspeak policy? Can I be banned from geocaching.com? It was intimated in the email (a tonal thing, but he's been known for these sorts of threats in the past) that my ability to use gc.com is under review. I don't want to be banned ... but if I'm asked for a hint from somebody, I don't want to be a jerk and tell them I can't help them (I've been ordered not too).

(He tends to use his relationship with Jeremy as a way to lord himself over people.)

(I'd like to send his email off to Hydee for attention ... but I'd like to know the policy first. Actually, since he sent the email to me through the gc.com system, Hydee can check it herself if she wants.)

Edited February 4, 2006 by dogbreathcanada

February 4, 2006

Apparently he was so upset that he's stuck a banner on his page telling me how upset he is. Apparently offering hints to people is stalking. How odd.

Unfortunately, he thinks he's very sneaky. The graphic is only viewable by certain IP addresses (mainly mine). The rest of you will only see a large blank image.

Here's a link to a screencap:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/cri...obsuserpage.jpg

Whether ot not his sneaky little image is viewable by me alone, I still saw it via his gc.com userpage. Is this becoming behaviour for a geocaching.com reviewer? Someone who claims to represent Groundspeak?

EDIT: changed link to image. Fullsize screencap. (Image server resized the last PNG file.)

Edited February 4, 2006 by dogbreathcanada

20.7k · February 4, 2006

OK, he's a psycho. I'm not aware of any official policies against giving hints.

Note: Clearly, I am not qualified to render a diagnosis of his mental health.

Edited February 4, 2006 by sbell111

3.9k · February 4, 2006

I don't think it's a good idea to give hints to other peoples caches. If someone needs a hint they should contact the cache owner. It should then be his/her's decision to give a hint or not.

Some caches are meant to be hard. If you give a hint you are underminding the intent of the cache owner. To me it's almost the same as leaving a cache slightly exposed to help out the next cacher.

Also posting a screen capture of a site that only you can supposedly see is suspect. Post the real link or none at all.

El Diablo

February 4, 2006

I think you should contact the Groundspeak staff and show them the situation/describe the issue. Whether such behavior is or is not against the rules- and as far as I know it isn't, why else are there "spoiler warnings" in the cache description pages? - is irrelevant, as the behavior described is definitely not the kind of thing I would imagine Groundspeak or gc.com wants to project as the type of people who review caches.

February 4, 2006

I don't think it's a good idea to give hints to other peoples caches. If someone needs a hint they should contact the cache owner. It should then be his/her's decision to give a hint or not.

Some caches are meant to be hard. If you give a hint you are underminding the intent of the cache owner. To me it's almost the same as leaving a cache slightly exposed to help out the next cacher.

Also posting a screen capture of a site that only you can supposedly see is suspect. Post the real link or none at all.

El Diablo

Just go to his userinfo page here on GC.com. It's the big blank graphic in the middle of his page. That graphics loads differently based upon IP address.

I don't care if you think it's suspect or not. It's an actual screenshot. No alteration. If you don't beleive me, that's your problem.

February 4, 2006

I don't think it's a good idea to give hints to other peoples caches. If someone needs a hint they should contact the cache owner. It should then be his/her's decision to give a hint or not.

Some caches are meant to be hard. If you give a hint you are underminding the intent of the cache owner. To me it's almost the same as leaving a cache slightly exposed to help out the next cacher.

Also posting a screen capture of a site that only you can supposedly see is suspect. Post the real link or none at all.

El Diablo

It's completely trivial to put together an image that will only be shown for certain hosts. I'm not saying the OP is telling the truth, but it'd take me about 3 seconds to do what he's describing.

February 4, 2006

How did the cache owner/reviewer find out that you gave a hint?

February 4, 2006

How did the cache owner/reviewer find out that you gave a hint?

On a local forum I offered a local woman a hint on a cache if she wanted it. I didn't post the hint to the forum. That would be BAD FORM. It was ultimately her choice whether to take the hint offer or not. He must have seen the offer in the thread.

She contacted me later via a private message and said she'd like the hint. I then gave her the hint via private message.

She has a three old child, so I didn't want her to disappoint the child with a DNF. The cache can be a difficult find due to heavy tree cover. But it's a really nice area for a child. All this began in a thread called "What are some nice kids caches in the area?"

February 4, 2006

It's completely trivial to put together an image that will only be shown for certain hosts. I'm not saying the OP is telling the truth, but it'd take me about 3 seconds to do what he's describing.

Well, since this is the path to the image http://www.geomatics.ca/spacer1x1.php, if it is an innocent little image, one wonders why it was linked to a .PHP (executable code) versus a standard image format (.JPG, .PNG, .GIF).

Because it isn't. The PHP file is serving up an IP-specific image. As I've shown in the screencap.

February 4, 2006

I'd say that in the future you don't give hints to cache planted by that particular cacher/approver out of respect wether it's due or not just because he's specifically asked you not to.

Next time you see a request for a hint on a thread, e-mail the person privately to ask them if they want a hint or not instead of posting the offer. It's silly and I'm on your side, but just to avoid more drama...

February 4, 2006

I'd say that in the future you don't give hints to cache planted by that particular cacher/approver out of respect wether it's due or not just because he's specifically asked you not to.

Next time you see a request for a hint on a thread, e-mail the person privately to ask them if they want a hint or not instead of posting the offer. It's silly and I'm on your side, but just to avoid more drama...

If he'd asked nicely, I could see this. But it sounds like this guy's gone off his spout. Exactly why is it that a reviewer can behave like that?

Respect is a two-way street. And implying that someone will get suspended without a clear violation of any rules is abuse of position.

February 4, 2006

I'd say that in the future you don't give hints to cache planted by that particular cacher/approver out of respect wether it's due or not just because he's specifically asked you not to.

Normally I would ... but this guy receives 5 or so phone calls per weekend (on average) from cachers out in the field, asking him for hints to other peoples caches. I just think it's very hypocritical for him to be engaging in an acitivty he finds distasteful when it comes to his own caches.

I hiked with the guy a few times last year before I learned about who he really was. (You can only hear stories about the time(s) he was at Groundspeak headquarters hanging out with Jeremy so many times before you want to stick your fist down your own throat.) So that's how I know about how in-demand he is in the local community, etc.

February 4, 2006

And implying that someone will get suspended without a clear violation of any rules is abuse of position.

The implication in this email was a closing sentence that read: "Conduct yourself accordingly."

Conduct myself accordingly, or what? I took that to be the threat. But I've received them in the past, such as an email that only contained the words "Tick, tick, tick" (which came after an argument about a local cache and whether it was a legal placement).

February 4, 2006

And implying that someone will get suspended without a clear violation of any rules is abuse of position.

The implication in this email was a closing sentence that read: "Conduct yourself accordingly."

Conduct myself accordingly, or what? I took that to be the threat. But I've received them in the past, such as an email that only contained the words "Tick, tick, tick" (which came after an argument about a local cache and whether it was a legal placement).

From the same guy?

3.9k · February 4, 2006

How did the cache owner/reviewer find out that you gave a hint?

On a local forum I offered a local woman a hint on a cache if she wanted it. I didn't post the hint to the forum. That would be BAD FORM. It was ultimately her choice whether to take the hint offer or not. He must have seen the offer in the thread.

She contacted me later via a private message and said she'd like the hint. I then gave her the hint via private message.

She has a three old child, so I didn't want her to disappoint the child with a DNF. The cache can be a difficult find due to heavy tree cover. But it's a really nice area for a child. All this began in a thread called "What are some nice kids caches in the area?"

I see your point about the php file. Still I don't believe you should give hints to other peoples caches. Also taking a stab in the dark here...It looks like from his screenshot that maybe the two of you have had previous run ins?

El Diablo

February 4, 2006

And implying that someone will get suspended without a clear violation of any rules is abuse of position.

The implication in this email was a closing sentence that read: "Conduct yourself accordingly."

Conduct myself accordingly, or what? I took that to be the threat. But I've received them in the past, such as an email that only contained the words "Tick, tick, tick" (which came after an argument about a local cache and whether it was a legal placement).

From the same guy?

Yes. He's been reported about such behaviour before by me and others. (I'd post his reviewer identity, but I have a feeling that would get me a weeklong (or longer) ban.)

February 4, 2006

And implying that someone will get suspended without a clear violation of any rules is abuse of position.

The implication in this email was a closing sentence that read: "Conduct yourself accordingly."

Conduct myself accordingly, or what? I took that to be the threat. But I've received them in the past, such as an email that only contained the words "Tick, tick, tick" (which came after an argument about a local cache and whether it was a legal placement).

From the same guy?

Yes. He's been reported about such behaviour before by me and others. (I'd post his reviewer identity, but I have a feeling that would get me a weeklong (or longer) ban.)

Well, I'd recommend you take it up with Groundspeak. I imagine you've had run-ins with him before from reading betwixt the lines. Parading the drama llama around on the forums isn't going to reduce tensions any.

7.2k · February 4, 2006

Huh! I thought he'd been removed from reviewing duties for junk like this before.

Regardless, it's the cache owner's prerogative to give out hints. If they don't want hints given out by others then simply refer the person requesting a hint to the owner.

Still the response is completely overboard and out of line.

6.4k · February 4, 2006

Like others have said, some caches are meant to be hard. I would not like other people giving out hints on my harder hides either.

As for the threatening part. You keep saying he "implied", it was "intimated" it was a "tonal thing", etc. In other words, it sounds like you are saying he really DIDNT really actually threaten you, but since you have had a personal fallout in the pass, you IMAGINE you've been threatened.

I also wonder how you know how many phone calls he gets a weekend and what he discusses during them when you dont exactly seem to be best friends.

As always, there are 2 sides to every story and I think we're missing a huge side here.

Edited February 4, 2006 by Mopar

February 4, 2006

I also wonder how you know how many phone calls he gets a weekend and what he discusses during them when you dont exactly seem to be best friends.

I hiked with him several times last summer. He tends to brag about anything that will place himself high upon the geocaching pedestal he feels he deserves to be on.

(I use the words "implied", "intimated", etc. so that I'm not guilty of libel. Whereas he didn't explicitely state a threat, if you knew him for any length of time, or knew some of his history around here, you'd know exactly what he meant.)

3.9k · February 4, 2006

I also wonder how you know how many phone calls he gets a weekend and what he discusses during them when you dont exactly seem to be best friends.

I hiked with him several times last summer. He tends to brag about anything that will place himself high upon the geocaching pedestal he feels he deserves to be on.

(I use the words "implied", "intimated", etc. so that I'm not guilty of libel. Whereas he didn't explicitely state a threat, if you knew him for any length of time, or knew some of his history around here, you'd know exactly what he meant.)

Still...this sounds like a personal issue. Either way it's not one for the fourms. You are bordering on a personal attack here. As a few have pointed out, it might be best to take it up with Groundspeak.

El Diablo

February 4, 2006

Like others have said, some caches are meant to be hard.

That is certainly true. But as a 2 star hide, I doubt it was supposed to result in 50 minute searches and lots of DNFs. Again, normally I wouldn't have given a hint for this cache, but a three year old child was involved and I didn't want him to be disappointed on his first caching adventure.

3.8k · February 4, 2006

I would consider it a threat.

As long as the hints aren't made public, I don't see that it is a big problem to help another cacher find a cache, even one that is not your own. Individuals in teams, cache machines and event groups often log caches that were actually found by someone other than themselves.

As far as the little trick on the profile page, I would think that there is definitely a violation of guidelines there somewhere, and if it had been me or most anyone else, there would likely be a reprimand issued.

Edited February 4, 2006 by sept1c_tank

3.9k · February 4, 2006

Like others have said, some caches are meant to be hard.

That is certainly true. But as a 2 star hide, I doubt it was supposed to result in 50 minute searches and lots of DNFs. Again, normally I wouldn't have given a hint for this cache, but a three year old child was involved and I didn't want him to be disappointed on his first caching adventure.

Not saying your intentions wern't good. Maybe it would have been best to direct them to a one star hide?

El Diablo

February 4, 2006

As a few have pointed out, it might be best to take it up with Groundspeak.

I have. Glad to hear that giving hints is not against Groundspeak policy, so I have no worries in that regard.

I won't reply further. But I do hope that Groundspeak will remove the offending PHP image placeholder. I don't think he should be using the geocaching.com site to attack me.

There are plenty of public forums locally in which he can do that.

3.9k · February 4, 2006

I would consider it a threat.

As long as the hints aren't made public, I don't see that it is a big problem to help another cacher find a cache, even one that is not your own. Individuals in teams, cache machines and event groups often log caches that were actually found by someone other than themselves.

As far as the little trick on the profile page, I would think that there is definitely a violation of guidelines there somewhere, and if it had been me or most anyone else, there would likely be a reprimand issued.

The owner of the cache has the opportunity to give out the hints as they see fit on the cache page, or via email. Besides...if you found the cache without a hint, surely they can too.

Bottom line is that's not your cache. Therefore it's not your right to give hints.

El Diablo

3.8k · February 4, 2006

I would consider it a threat.

As long as the hints aren't made public, I don't see that it is a big problem to help another cacher find a cache, even one that is not your own. Individuals in teams, cache machines and event groups often log caches that were actually found by someone other than themselves.

As far as the little trick on the profile page, I would think that there is definitely a violation of guidelines there somewhere, and if it had been me or most anyone else, there would likely be a reprimand issued.

The owner of the cache has the opportunity to give out the hints as they see fit on the cache page, or via email. Besides...if you found the cache without a hint, surely they can too.

Bottom line is that's not your cache. Therefore it's not your right to give hints.

El Diablo

It is within my rights to have private conversation with anyone who is willing to listen. If someone asks, and I choose to give someone a hint about finding a cache, or cheating on an exam, I can do that. Nobody but me governs my private conversation.

5k · February 4, 2006

I'm generally against giving out hints to other people's caches through email. After one of my harder caches was found, the finder emailed me and said he had tried previously without success but so-and-so told him where it was.

I replied asking why he didn't as me if he wanted additional help. And where was the DNF? I also sent an email to so-and-so asking them to refrain from giving out the locations to my caches. Never got a response from either.

Justifying hints by using kids is silly. DNFs happen. To kids and adults. Accept it and go on. This isn't a sure-thing game, and it shouldn't be.

As for the other carp going on behind the scenes... interesting stuff, but I stay out of all that.

Jamie

Edited February 4, 2006 by Jamie Z

February 4, 2006

DogbreathCanada is sending out unsolicited emails to cachers who have logged DNF's on mine and other caches recently and providing them with exact directions and solutions to the caches.

I have received notes from recipients of these emails, complaining about DBCs actions.

Here is one such log today...

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...4b-e43b551edee2

In addition, DBC publicly announced he will send out solutions to my caches in local forums.

After being contacted by several cachers and I confirmed DBC email broadcast, I sent the following email to him asking him to please not not send out spoilers to my caches.

-- Copy of email sent to dogbreathcanada --

Mike,

It has been brought to my attention that you are sending out unsolicited spoilers to my caches. In addition, you are publicly offering provision of said spoilers in public forums.

At this time I am formally requesting you please do not send, mail, post any information about my cache locations, either solicited or unsolicited, by any means or in any form.

Please govern yourself accordingly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

-----

His response was to start this thread.

February 4, 2006

DogbreathCanada is sending out unsolicited emails to cachers who have logged DNF's on mine and other caches recently and providing them with exact directions and solutions to the caches.

I have received notes from recipients of these emails, complaining about DBCs actions.

Here is one such log today...

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/log.aspx?LU...4b-e43b551edee2

That's BS. I only told them what side of the trail to look on. And a hint about what sort of object it might be. Lots of searching would still be required. I only offered them the hint because someone else had asked for one that day (Berz), and while I was looking at the cache page, I decided to help out a couple more people. The hint wasn't offered to peeve you off at all. It actually looked like the cache might be missing, and since you rarely maintain your caches, I figured having people tromp around the cache site destroying vegetation (as described by another cacher on Jan 28) might be bad for the area. And at least this way it could be determined a lot quicker whether the cache was present or not.

My intentions had nothing at all to do with you. It simply had to do with the cachers in question and the area in question.

In addition, DBC publicly announced he will send out solutions to my caches in local forums.

I'd like you to link to THAT post, please. Oh you can't ... that's right ... because it doesn't exist. The post you're referring to (http://lmga.net/e107_plugins/forum/forum_v...?255.0#post_446) was one in which I offered a hint to a single person on a particular cache (as explained previously in this thread). I have never stated what you describe. Ever.

His response was to start this thread.

You've set your email server to bounce all my mail back to me. So getting into a conversation with you is impossible. Of course your response, even before emailing me, was to post the following IP-specific image on your gc.com userpage (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v299/criteriondvd_lj/NonCriterion/bobsuserpage.jpg).

Edited February 4, 2006 by dogbreathcanada

6.4k · February 4, 2006

Like I said, 2 sides...................

6.4k · February 4, 2006

Mike,

It has been brought to my attention that you are sending out unsolicited spoilers to my caches. In addition, you are publicly offering provision of said spoilers in public forums.

At this time I am formally requesting you please do not send, mail, post any information about my cache locations, either solicited or unsolicited, by any means or in any form.

Please govern yourself accordingly.

Thank you for your cooperation.

And this is the "threat" that started all this? You gotta be kidding.

February 4, 2006

That's pretty reasonable actually, although the "either solicited or unsolicited" part is iffy. If someone solicits my knowledge of a 3rd parties cache, what happens next is my business.

February 4, 2006

That's pretty reasonable actually, although the "either solicited or unsolicited" part is iffy. If someone solicits my knowledge of a 3rd parties cache, what happens next is my business.

Whereas I shouldn't have sent a hint to the cachers I did (without them asking), it honestly looked like the cache was missing (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=39ef260c-f0f6-4bbc-8af1-2f441e25a9f1) and that the owner wasn't going to do anything about it (this is a reviewer who lets his caches go disabled and unmaintained for six months to a year at a time), my intentions at the time were to simply help out two people I thought were reasonable folks, and so that the status of the cache could be more quickly determined.

(Read the January 27th log entry and tell me you wouldn't want to help those folks. And considering I'd met them caching before and knew them to be quite kind and personable, doubly so.)

I don't regret giving a hint to Berz. He sent me an email and specifically asked for one.

And the hint to the other lady (via a local website and as described in posts much further above) was half-solicited/half-unsolicited. I told her I would be willing to give her a hint. But ultimately she had to ask for it. If she hadn't asked for the hint, she wouldn't have got one.

I'll refrain from the UNSOLICITED hints in the future. I'll continue to use my own judgement on the SOLICITED hints.

Thanks for all the feedback folks.

Edited February 4, 2006 by dogbreathcanada

February 4, 2006

February 4, 2006

Keep your hints to yourself if it's not your cache. If I place a cache and make it a challenge, I did so purposely...who are you to give out hints on a cache that doesn't belong to you? That's why there's a rating system in place.

February 4, 2006

Thank again for all the feedback. I'll refrain from any UNSOLICITED hints in the future, even if the intention of those hints is for good, not evil.

Closing thread.

Edited February 4, 2006 by dogbreathcanada

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