Obnoxious Tb Log

February 3, 2006

I have a TB that I released with my sons boy scout troop. He and his friends have been enjoying watching the progress of this bug. Recently, a log was posted on the bug that I feel was uncalled for and was looking for some feedback on if I am overreacting.

HERE IS WHAT THEY WROTE:

"Didn't know what I had until it was too late. Ah, but our time has been spent wisely! Made the TB stare at the glaad.org website for an hour before remanding it back into the ziplock and a dark corner. As much as I love this game, there are much better things for a homophobic organization to 'introduce' to it's following. Living a non-prejudicial life should be one of them!"

MY EMAIL RESPONSE:

A little dissappointing to see a comment made like that. This was a TB put out by a group of 10 year old boys who were quite excited to watch the progress of their TB that they released. The boy scouts have been a great organization for my son and his friends. Certainly not w/o their controversy, but if you have a problem with BSA take it up with them, not a group of 10 year old boys.

THEIR FOLLOW UP RESPONSE:

A little bit dissapointing in seeing that my log was deleted like

that. This was a TB picked up by a geocacher that is quite sick to

watch the backward progress of a organization that I have no choice

but to voice my opinion about, certainly not without a bit of

controversy. If you have a problem with geocachers who hate prejudice

of all forms but you yourself don't, you need to ask yourself what you

are doing wrong... Never mind teaching those same values to a group of

ten year old boys.

Here is a link to the TB http://www.geocaching.com/track/details.as...6f-e2ab0134c95c

February 3, 2006

Wow, someone seems a little excited there. I can't imagine what your kids did to deserve that. If that letter was addressed to the BSA national office, that's fine, but to think that a positive reaction and change could come from posting that log is a little strange. Just out of curiosity, did he/she move the bug after scolding you for introducing kids to geocaching or is it now stolen?

February 3, 2006

I believe that this bug will be out of circulation. Cacher seemed to get a bit upset after I deleted her/his log. Oh well, will have to get those biggoted (Spelling ?) 10 year old scouts out again to release another bug.

9.1k · February 3, 2006

Sadly, it looks like the Boy Scouts' travel bug is toast. Time to send out the copy tag.

A cache page or travel bug page is no place to be arguing a social agenda. The log perhaps even rises to the level of violating paragraph 4 of the site's Terms of Use.

3.8k · February 3, 2006

Having some knowledge of the controversy (homophobia) refrenced, I just cannot make a logical connection with travel bugs, or geocaching in general and the BSA. I'm not sure what his problem is, but it is interesting to note the language used (by the person who wrote that log) in the goal of one of his own travel bugs:

Mainely Moose's goal? Get back home before winter of 2007 for a family reunion, photos... oh, and (of course) THE RUTTING SEASON.

:wacko: :lol:

February 3, 2006

A copy of my email to GeoMaine:

Your log for the BSA Pack 563 TB was lame and poorly directed. Don't punish the boys who belong to an organization you disagree with with false insults and accusations. The BSA is not homophobic, and your claim to that falsehood makes you look silly.

Please put the Travel Bug back in circulation and enjoy your next cache hunt.

- Pablo Mac

1.5k · February 4, 2006

I would say he is just a pain in the you know what but he might like that...sadly it is time for the copy time to come out and restart this bug a new. I would even be happy to get it moving down here in S. Carolina to get it away from harm.

February 4, 2006

I'm no fan of the BSA myself- I disagree with their position on a lot of things, but I don't think it's appropriate to take your frustrations out on a TB. If you don't like the TB or who sent it, don't take it.

Geocaching should be above politics and religion. I may not like the moronic "you're going to Hell" tracts that I find in a lot of the caches I've hit around here, but they're pretty easy to ignore.

1.5k · February 4, 2006

Geocaching should be above politics and religion.

IF ONLY!!!!!!! :wacko:

February 4, 2006

GeoMaine posted a note for BSA Pack 563 TB (Travel Bug Dog Tag)

Guess the truth came a little too close to home for stickmonkey and I found my log deleted. Sweet! Hmm... Lemme think... What to do, what to do...

Hey, I've got a suggestion. Stop acting like a 10 year old and start acting like an adult.

38.2k · February 4, 2006

"...Living a non-prejudicial life should be one of them!"

Hmmmm, but he is prejudiced against Boy Scouts. Proof once again that so many of these types are among the most intolerant and closed minded folk around. The sad thing is that they are so smugly self-satisfied with their own "elightenment" they don't see their bigotry.

Edited February 4, 2006 by briansnat

February 4, 2006

"...Living a non-prejudicial life should be one of them!"

Hmmmm, but he is prejudiced against Boy Scouts. Proof once again that so many of these types are among the most intolerant and closed minded folk around. The sad thing is that they are so smugly self-satisfied with their own "elightenment" they don't see their bigotry.

It's pretty silly to claim someone is bigoted against bigotry. While it may be true, it's also a "Yes, guilty as charged" kind of moment.

The BSA really is an organization with some pretty prejudicial positions. They're perfectly within their rights to have them, but anyone else is perfectly within their rights to point out that they're bigots. I personally despise the BSA, but I wouldn't do something to a TB sent out by a scout troop. That's just mean-spirited and sholud be beneath anyone with a sense of honor or decency.

Like I said before, if you don't like the TB or don't want to support it, leave it behind.

10.1k · February 4, 2006

Hmm... The sequence of events: Someone picked up Stickmonkey's TB, and made a political comment about it in the log. Perhaps a bit unusual. Did he lie? No. The Supreme Court has ruled that the Boy Scouts are homophobic, but they are permitted to be so, as a private organization.

One cannot expect everyone to share their views. There are certainly caches that I will not hunt because of my views, and I am sure that there are TBs out there that I will not go anywhere near. I have my prerogatives, as you have yours.

Stickmonkey then deleted the log. Did he ask first if the bug finder might tone down the rhetoric? Not that I've seen. "I don't like what you are saying, whether it be true or not, so I'm deleting your log." Happens more often than one would like to admit.

That was certainly not the most auspicious way to insure the longevity of a Travel Bug. This should be in the TB Longevity Clinic: Do not insult the person holding your travel bug, until after they have dropped it off. And what have we taught the young boys of Pack 563? Insulting those who disagree with us is a good way to gt a TB moved along? We are right, and everyone else is wrong? The truth hurts?

"Too bad for the kids." I'll agree with this statement. Teach the fine young lads manners. Whether you like it or not, geocaching is a microcosm of society.

February 4, 2006

cyclometh,

I think that's the way everyone should play it. I don't care about your personal politics or agenda but if I did, I just would avoid your cache(s) or use the old TNLNSL. More to the point, I'm willing to go out on a limb and claim that this group of 10 year olds, probably didn't make the BSA policy. Heck, they probably aren't even aware of it.

3.9k · February 4, 2006

People seem to be missing the point here. It's not wether or not you support the BSA, or your opinion one way or another. The point is that this sport wasn't intended to promote or to bash any organization. It's a game. Voicing your opinion to a bunch of 10 year olds following this TB, is about as productive as trying to nail jello to a tree.

El Diablo

February 4, 2006

cyclometh,

I think that's the way everyone should play it. I don't care about your personal politics or agenda but if I did, I just would avoid your cache(s) or use the old TNLNSL. More to the point, I'm willing to go out on a limb and claim that this group of 10 year olds, probably didn't make the BSA policy. Heck, they probably aren't even aware of it.

Another valid point. I might have a problem with the BSA (and make no mistake, I think the BSA is a sleazy organization that's undeserving of either the rep or the money they get), but how the heck does it help to do something so nasty to a group of kids? Everyone should be able to participate in Geocaching, and short of someone leaving straight-up hate literature or some kind of really hateful TB, I'm just not gonna play with the people whose perspective I disagree with.

Now, if someone had put a TB connected to the Rev Fred Phelps' web site (can't be named here), I'd take it and destroy it (or maybe pull it from circulation and mail it to Groundspeak, which would probably be a better decision).

cyclometh

February 4, 2006

Hey Jeremy!

Can you have your site privileges revoked for knowingly hampering another cachers cache/TB? If so I think this guy could use a wake up call as to what this game is supposed to be about. Certainly, as everyone else has already stated, not politics.

X

February 4, 2006

Glad to see that I am not overreacting to the log. I certainly have no problem with peoples negative views on the BSA, however I don't agree with them. Glad to see that those with negative views of the BSA are able to agree that the bug finder was totally out of line by taking out his/her differences on a bunch of 10 year olds.

I felt I was justified in deleting the log because #1) its my bug and I have every right to but more importantly #2) my son and his friends often check on this bug and I didn't feel like explaining to him why someone thinks that the organization that is so important to him is a bunch of homophobes.

I have since decided to put that log back up on the page for others to see what a lunatic this person is.

February 4, 2006

Maybe his log should have said something to the affect of "While I don't agree with what this organization usually stands for, it's nice that some pack leaders have chosen to focus on more healthy, less contraversial topics such as geocaching that don't exclude anybody." That would still include his agenda (which I guess is against Groundspeak guidelines anyway) and not be so critical.

This guy just wanted to start trouble...and wants to EXCLUDE Boy Scout/Cub Scout Troops/Packs.

February 4, 2006

I have been reading several different topics and tons of posts. I've been keeping my nose out of most of this business (actually all of it). However, I thought I would just point out an observation that is rather disturbing. Has anyone noticed how many negative posts, people and topics there are? Everything from people that don't like what they find in caches to people, such as in this case, that completely stop some kids' TB just to be a horses butt. Muggles are one thing, they just don't get it, but they aren't into the sport, and I would be willing to bet most often muggles happen when someone finds something and they keep it, sometimes for amusement, sometimes to be like the guy in said topic above. The funny thing is, we all got into this sport (i'll call it sport...until a better definition comes out) to be outdoors, in beautifull scenery, getting some fresh air and excersize, and mostly i would bet, to get away from the office where you may have a bunch of negative people/problems/issues and clear your head and just enjoy being alive. Now, that being said, YES i understand that probably sounded like the cheesiest post yet, but come on let's try to get back to the lighter side of this sport and back to why we started this in the first place. I wouldn't give some of these other people the time to even post to them, or about them. Make sense?

38.2k · February 4, 2006

as anyone noticed how many negative posts, people and topics there are? Everything from people that don't like what they find in caches to people, such as in this case, that completely stop some kids' TB just to be a horses butt.

People generally don't post to forums when everything is hunky dory. Its when questions arise or problems pop up that people are prompted to post. I think that's fairly normal in any forum.

February 4, 2006

i'd agree. Just seams like it should be more fun than this!!!! Discussion forums are for discussing. Could talk about cool places, and awesome finds etc. Your right...i just wanted to point it out.

February 4, 2006

I hijacked your topic!!! mhuuuuhaaaa....just kidding. you can have it back now.

February 4, 2006

Perhaps I'm biased because I'm a Boy Scout or perhaps I'm biased because I am unable to make a rational thought, but I am rather (rightfully or not) disturbed at the bashing of an organization taken on by people in this thread and the writer of the travel bug logs. I've never found it justifiable to give backhanded compliments -- it's just not tasteful. I respect others opinions but find it hard not to constructively criticize those that don't take in the holistic perspective -- the BSA doesn't exist to be homophobic.

With that said and keeping in mind this threads existence isn't based on the validity of the forementioned program,

I think it's sad to see the day when grown, supposedly level-headed adults take their anger out on a group of 10-year old children who probably don't even know what a homosexual person is. Perhaps this grown person should, well, grow up.

Sorry about your bug loss.

2.7k · February 4, 2006

For every TB GeoMaine steals or defaces in the name of 'tolerance' I will give the Boy Scouts $10.

Keep it up genius! Help me help the Boy Scouts.

February 4, 2006

Just an update....geomaine has agreed to release the bug in two weeks providing I keep her log on bug page for two weeks. Kind of being held for ransom....but this is not the problem I had with the log. It was the fact that he/she is bashing the policies of an organization to an audience of a bunch of 10 year olds. I have no problems with the views of this person, just with the forum they are using to express them.

2.7k · February 4, 2006

Wow. How... generous of them.

1.4k · February 4, 2006

If it were my bug, I'd delete her log and release a duplicate bug. Her log goes way past poor form. I rank it close to Peta's schoolyard "your Moms a murderer" campaign.

February 4, 2006

I'm glad things are (sort of) working out for your bug. Hopefully the next person to pick it up will be more hospitable and move it far, far away.

1.8k · February 4, 2006

I guess trashing a group on young boys is a top priority of the pc among us?? Following Teddy's example, I see.

February 4, 2006

In the midst of the progression of this thread, I refreshed this page this morning and got this:

"You are not authorized to view this page. The Web server you are attempting to reach has a list of IP addresses that are not allowed to access the Web site, and the IP address of your browsing computer is on this list.

I thought I had been banned because of my previous post:

A copy of my email to GeoMaine:

Your log for the BSA Pack 563 TB was lame and poorly directed. Don't punish the boys who belong to an organization you disagree with with false insults and accusations. The BSA is not homophobic, and your claim to that falsehood makes you look silly.

Please put the Travel Bug back in circulation and enjoy your next cache hunt.

- Pablo Mac

Guess not...for now. It must have had something to do with the site upgrades...?

2.7k · February 4, 2006

Nah Pablo, I think you would have gotten an email if you were. They prolly 'banned' everyone while they were doing the upgrade.

February 4, 2006

Yes, I too thought I was banned. I even went as far as signing up for a free dial up account to try to log in, but got same message. Must have something to do with the upgrade.

1.4k · February 4, 2006

The BSA is not homophobic. They do not fear gays, they just disagree with their sexuality and have a responsibility to protect the children in their program.

Their zero tolerance policy with regards to gay leaders within their ranks stems from many sexual assaults committed against the young boys in the program, the vast majority of which were committed by gay men and/or male pedophiles. While this does exclude normal and ethical gays from participating in the scouting program, it also provides a safer environment for the kids involved. They have a number of other policies in place with the same goals, such as the "two deep" policy (no leader is allowed to be alone with a scout or scouts, there must always be 2 adults present).

To berate a group of preteen boys in their own space, such as this TB log, tells me alot about the insensitivity of this cacher. If she felt compelled to voice her concerns, an email to the bug owner or to the BSA would have been much more appropriate.

Edited February 4, 2006 by BadAndy

February 4, 2006

What BadAndy just said.

3.1k · February 4, 2006

I can not believe how immature the GeoMaine is behaving.... spouting policals agenda on a TB log and holding the bug for "ransom". That SHOULD get a person reprimanded!

There are appropriate channel to go through for these things.

Maybe their IP really should be blocked.....

February 4, 2006

The BSA is not homophobic. They do not fear gays, they just disagree with their sexuality and have a responsibility to protect the children in their program.

Their zero tolerance policy with regards to gay leaders within their ranks stems from many sexual assaults committed against the young boys in the program, the vast majority of which were committed by gay men and/or male pedophiles. While this does exclude normal and ethical gays from participating in the scouting program, it also provides a safer environment for the kids involved. They have a number of other policies in place with the same goals, such as the "two deep" policy (no leader is allowed to be alone with a scout or scouts, there must always be 2 adults present).

To berate a group of preteen boys in their own space, such as this TB log, tells me alot about the insensitivity of this cacher. If he/she felt compelled to voice her concerns, an email to the bug owner or to the BSA would have been much more appropriate.

The BSA is absolutely homophobic. Phobia != fear. Phobia == aversion, especially in this context. I have an extremely hard time believing that the "vast majority" of the "many" sexual assaults you refer to were committed by homosexuals and frankly smacks of a regurgitated talking point to me.

In point of fact, a gay man is no more likely to commit assault or molest someone than a straight one. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with ones' propensity to commit such heinous acts, and therefore it does not provide a safer environment. It does provide an enviornment free of the people and viewpoints the BSA thinks should be excluded.

The BSA also excludes atheists, and I imagine isn't welcoming to non-christians either, as I expect they consider anyone not a Christian to be an atheist or at least a heretic.

As I said above, the BSA is entitled to have their views and to run their organization as they see fit. I'm not going to move along a TB from the BSA simply because I don't approve of them or their policies, and I have as much disdain for them as they do for me (I'm an atheist). However, as I also said above, it's not useful or productive to take out your issues with anyone on their TB- and in this case, messing with a bunch of ten year old boys' TB because you don't like the BSA is just stupid and mean.

Anyway, like I say in my sig, geocaching should be above both politics and religion. Short of hate literature and so on, what people want to cache or use as a TB is their business.

I may not agree with someone but I'll defend their right to say it to the death.

As an aside- the part about "many sexual assaults", if true, leads one to wonder why anyone would place their children within the reach of an organization that apparently can't keep them safe from predators of any stripe.

2.7k · February 4, 2006

At the risk of being a Forum Nazi, might I suggest that the debate over teh Boy Scout policies be done in Off Topic? This thread is really about the behaviour of an individual cacher in regards to a TB.

Debating the BSA has the potential to become seriously inflamed, and this forum isn't about that (right or wrong).

February 4, 2006

So sorry to hear this local cacher is behaving so badly. I hope I never have to meet him at an event. If I do I will ask him why he feels 10 year olds need to be punished by someone like himself.

He should be embarrased of his behaviour. I ran into one of his TB's at a recent event in NH. Glad I never got around to logging it.

February 4, 2006

Hey Stickmonkey,

Send me an email, I'll purchase and send to you a new travel bug tag. Archive the hostage tag. That shoud solve the problem.

2.7k · February 4, 2006

At the risk of being a Forum Nazi, might I suggest that the debate over teh Boy Scout policies be done in Off Topic? This thread is really about the behaviour of an individual cacher in regards to a TB.

Debating the BSA has the potential to become seriously inflamed, and this forum isn't about that (right or wrong).

Actually, I think it is a 'her', FWIW.

February 4, 2006

At the risk of being a Forum Nazi, might I suggest that the debate over teh Boy Scout policies be done in Off Topic? This thread is really about the behaviour of an individual cacher in regards to a TB.

Debating the BSA has the potential to become seriously inflamed, and this forum isn't about that (right or wrong).

I agree that the thread is not directly about that, but we're discussing the issue of whether it's OK to do something like this based on your views of the organization in question. I think a discussion of these things is actually relevant as it helps to get the issues out there.

Let's consider an alternative for a moment. What if the TB in question had been sent by PFLAG? Or maybe a youth group of the World Church of the Creator? Would the reaction to someone hijacking a TB sent by either of these groups be different? Wolud it be positive, negative, and why?

If you found a TB launched by an organization that you felt was truly a bad group or really hated for some reason (insert some really awful group here), would you pull that TB? (assuming it didn't violate any other gc rules)

My personal rule is that I wouldn't move a TB along if it was connected to or launched by a group I disagree with. If it's not in violation of gc.com's general rules about TBs and geocaching, I'd leave it. If it was offensive in its own right, I'd pull it and let Groundspeak know about it so they could decide its fate.

2.7k · February 4, 2006

Even if I found a TB from a group I am totally opposed to I would not do any such thing. I'd move it along with a note equivalent to "TNLNSL". If you don't ave anything GOOD to say, there's no reason to turn ones self into a donkeys behind and spout off. I don't care if the TB is from The Communist Party, the KKK or the Church of Satan. If I know beforehand what it is, I might leave it. If not, I won't throw a hissy fit. I'll just pass it along and get it out of my life, end of story.

If I want to have a discussion with someone, it'll be face-to-face, and be of a peruasion-to-my-'side', not a hateful rant hiding behind a computer monitor - and most definitely not against kids.

A TB page is no place for effective persuation/discourse.

February 4, 2006

Even if I found a TB from a group I am totally opposed to I would not do any such thing. I'd move it along with a note equivalent to "TNLNSL". If you don't ave anything GOOD to say, there's no reason to turn ones self into a donkeys behind and spout off. I don't care if the TB is from The Communist Party, the KKK or the Church of Satan. If I know beforehand what it is, I might leave it. If not, I won't throw a hissy fit. I'll just pass it along and get it out of my life, end of story.

If I want to have a discussion with someone, it'll be face-to-face, and be of a peruasion-to-my-'side', not a hateful rant hiding behind a computer monitor - and most definitely not against kids.

A TB page is no place for effective persuation/discourse.

I never said it was. But if I found a TB from the WCOTC or the KKK, I'd pull it as I think that's in violation of gc's policies about appropriate material in a cache. I wouldn't log it, I'd just notify Groundspeak about it.

My signature says geocaching should be above politics and religion, and it should. But some people will insist on introducing it, which means the rest of us have to deal with it. Being a geocacher doesn't mean you don't have opinions, and if we don't talk about stuff like this, then people just continue doing whatever because there's no consensus.

I don't think I'd be being a "donkey's behind" by pulling a hateful TB. The person(s) who put it out would qualify, IMO. The BSA one we're talking about certainly isn't hateful in the least, but it opens the discussion up to what would happen if you saw something that was put out by a straight-up hate group?

2.6k · February 4, 2006

If I found a TB dedicated to the Hitler Youth, I wouldn't take it out on a bunch of ten-year-olds. YOU DON'T PICK ON KIDS.

If nothing else, TB logs are lousy persuaders. Geez, do you think those boys came away from that log thinking less of the Boy Scouts or less of GLAAD?

February 4, 2006

If I found a TB dedicated to the Hitler Youth, I wouldn't take it out on a bunch of ten-year-olds. YOU DON'T PICK ON KIDS.

If nothing else, TB logs are lousy persuaders. Geez, do you think those boys came away from that log thinking less of the Boy Scouts or less of GLAAD?

I think there's a misperception here. I never said I'd start some kind of dustup on the TB log. Using the Hitler Youth example, I'd pull it, notify Groundspeak and tell them what my concerns were, and ask what they wanted to do.

I agree, starting some kind of idiocy on the TB log just to grind an axe is counterproductive and wouldn't lead to anythnig but posturing and chest-thumping.

2.7k · February 4, 2006

I never said it was. But if I found a TB from the WCOTC or the KKK, I'd pull it as I think that's in violation of gc's policies about appropriate material in a cache. I wouldn't log it, I'd just notify Groundspeak about it.

My signature says geocaching should be above politics and religion, and it should. But some people will insist on introducing it, which means the rest of us have to deal with it. Being a geocacher doesn't mean you don't have opinions, and if we don't talk about stuff like this, then people just continue doing whatever because there's no consensus.

I don't think I'd be being a "donkey's behind" by pulling a hateful TB. The person(s) who put it out would qualify, IMO. The BSA one we're talking about certainly isn't hateful in the least, but it opens the discussion up to what would happen if you saw something that was put out by a straight-up hate group?

Those guidelines are for placed CACHES, if I recall. If I wanted to put out a TB for the RNC or DNC, that has nothing to do whatsoever with the cache. And besides, offense and hate are in teh eye of teh beholder. I recall a thread ayear or two back where some cache from Florida had a TB made to honor his grandfather, who happened to be on teh wrong side of WWII. He wanted the TB to go to a place in Austria. Unfortunately, he used a toy Nazi soldier - not because he was promoting Hitler or his policies, but because that is what his grandfather had been. However, people on that side of the pond didn't see it that way. Was it a bad call on the TB owner? Yeah. But what he intended and what 'they' chose to be offended at is ridiculous. Likewise with the BSA. So you're (you=rhetorical) offended by the BSA, in spite of all that they do that has nothing to do with sexual orientation AT ALL. That doesn't give you the right to be a jerk and steal the TB in revenge for some perceived wrong. I had no idea who PFLAG was until you mentioned it, but were I to find a TB, I'd still pass it on. What if someone got offended by my TB because it was from an American, and Americans are 'teh eeeevuuuuhhhlll'? SInce it is in Europe at the moment, does that make it OK that someone steals it? Because they are offended at the policies of the US? No. What if someone decided that teh plastic in which I placed my TB was not environmentally friendly? Does that give them the right to steal it because they are offended I used plastic? No.

The only thing I can see being removed from circulation is pornographic TBs, as it should be up to the parent how & when to expose a child to images of a sexual nature. But for the other stuff, where the images re not gona get stuck in a kids head (or have meaning anyway), just pass 'em by or pass 'em on.

February 4, 2006

I never said it was. But if I found a TB from the WCOTC or the KKK, I'd pull it as I think that's in violation of gc's policies about appropriate material in a cache. I wouldn't log it, I'd just notify Groundspeak about it.

My signature says geocaching should be above politics and religion, and it should. But some people will insist on introducing it, which means the rest of us have to deal with it. Being a geocacher doesn't mean you don't have opinions, and if we don't talk about stuff like this, then people just continue doing whatever because there's no consensus.

I don't think I'd be being a "donkey's behind" by pulling a hateful TB. The person(s) who put it out would qualify, IMO. The BSA one we're talking about certainly isn't hateful in the least, but it opens the discussion up to what would happen if you saw something that was put out by a straight-up hate group?

Those guidelines are for placed CACHES, if I recall. If I wanted to put out a TB for the RNC or DNC, that has nothing to do whatsoever with the cache. And besides, offense and hate are in teh eye of teh beholder. I recall a thread ayear or two back where some cache from Florida had a TB made to honor his grandfather, who happened to be on teh wrong side of WWII. He wanted the TB to go to a place in Austria. Unfortunately, he used a toy Nazi soldier - not because he was promoting Hitler or his policies, but because that is what his grandfather had been. However, people on that side of the pond didn't see it that way. Was it a bad call on the TB owner? Yeah. But what he intended and what 'they' chose to be offended at is ridiculous. Likewise with the BSA. So you're (you=rhetorical) offended by the BSA, in spite of all that they do that has nothing to do with sexual orientation AT ALL. That doesn't give you the right to be a jerk and steal the TB in revenge for some perceived wrong. I had no idea who PFLAG was until you mentioned it, but were I to find a TB, I'd still pass it on. What if someone got offended by my TB because it was from an American, and Americans are 'teh eeeevuuuuhhhlll'? SInce it is in Europe at the moment, does that make it OK that someone steals it? Because they are offended at the policies of the US? No. What if someone decided that teh plastic in which I placed my TB was not environmentally friendly? Does that give them the right to steal it because they are offended I used plastic? No.

The only thing I can see being removed from circulation is pornographic TBs, as it should be up to the parent how & when to expose a child to images of a sexual nature. But for the other stuff, where the images re not gona get stuck in a kids head (or have meaning anyway), just pass 'em by or pass 'em on.

It's a crime punishable by imprisonment to trade or posses Nazi memorabilia in several European nations, so I can understand that- it wasn't a question of choice, it was a question of legality.

As far as the BSA one, I've already stated several times that it's not an issue for me that it's out there. If I found it, I'd leave it, but someone would move it along. I don't have to play with people I don't agree with.

If I found somethnig from the KKK or the WCOTC or something like that, I'd very seriously consider pulling it, as these organizations go beyond being "offensive" to "threatening" as far as I'm concerned. My PFLAG example was not directed at you personally, but to make a point- what would the reaction be if someone took a TB from an organization that wasn't the BSA out of circulation? For some groups that don't fall into the "hate group" category, I'd wager the reaction would be still be a LOT different than we've seen here. And I hate even the smell of hypocrisy.

It's probably not a huge deal, because by and large TBs tend to be pretty innocuous, and it'd be pretty silly to launch one with a political message, as it would be doomed- despite the fact that you and I would treat it with respect, it's a guarantee that someone else with an ax to grind wouldn't.

20.7k · February 4, 2006

But if I found a TB from the WCOTC or the KKK, I'd pull it as I think that's in violation of gc's policies about appropriate material in a cache. I wouldn't log it, I'd just notify Groundspeak about it.

I think you are doing this thread a disservice with that comment. The TB in question was not putting forth the message that the logger commented on.

I think that its a pity that the TB owners deleted the log. Its too bad that they didn't use it to have a discussion with the scouts regarding intolerence.

Anyway, let's play out your hypothetical. If a KKK-like club played the game and released a TB into the wild, I don't think that you would have any right or responsibility to pull it unless the actual TB object violated the guidelines. Obviously, if the verbiage on the TB page violated the guidelines you are well within your rights to notify TPTB. You have no right to 'pull' a TB just because you don't like the beliefs of its owner.

... If I found somethnig from the KKK or the WCOTC or something like that, I'd very seriously consider pulling it, as these organizations go beyond being "offensive" to "threatening" as far as I'm concerned. ...

But you see, there is a difference between the TB and the beliefs of its owners. If the TB doesn't put forth the 'wrong' message, what gives you the right to pull it no matter who it belongs to? If such a group hid caches (Just regular caches full of McToys) would it be right for you to go and take all of them?

February 4, 2006

But if I found a TB from the WCOTC or the KKK, I'd pull it as I think that's in violation of gc's policies about appropriate material in a cache. I wouldn't log it, I'd just notify Groundspeak about it.

I think you are doing this thread a disservice with that comment. The TB in question was not putting forth the message that the logger commented on.

I think that its a pity that the TB owners deleted the log. Its too bad that they didn't use it to have a discussion with the scouts regarding intolerence.

Anyway, let's play out your hypothetical. If a KKK-like club played the game and released a TB into the wild, I don't think that you would have any right or responsibility to pull it unless the actual TB object violated the guidelines. Obviously, if the verbiage on the TB page violated the guidelines you are well within your rights to notify TPTB. You have no right to 'pull' a TB just because you don't like the beliefs of its owner.

How do you do a thread a dissservice? And why don't you read the rest of what I said? I've said REPEATEDLY I have no problem with the TB that started this discussion and that I think the guy who pulled it and trotted out the drama llama on the TB log is a jackass.

Anyway, my hypothetical was based on something that would be patently obvious in the TB itself, which would take it out of the realm you're describing and into the area of violating the guidelines. If the Westboro Baptist Church put a TB with the URL to their website on it, yeah I'd pull it and notify Groundspeak.

If I found a TB that wasn't obviously connected, but found so on the TB page, I'd let Groundspeak know and let them make the call.

I'm not the cache police, but we all have a responsibility, in my opinion, to keep this sport on a solid ethical foundation. How do you think the news media would react to a story of the KKK's TB? Yeah, that'd make Geocachers look really good.

But you see, there is a difference between the TB and the beliefs of its owners. If the TB doesn't put forth the 'wrong' message, what gives you the right to pull it no matter who it belongs to? If such a group hid caches (Just regular caches full of McToys) would it be right for you to go and take all of them?

I think you really need to read what I've said thus far more carefully- you're either deliberately ignoring some things I've already made clear, or you're not reading the whole thread.

If I had any way of identifying the TB as being connected to such a group, that in my opinion would put it into the "inappropriate" category, because the very fact that I could ID it in the field would mean that its purpose was obvious.

If, OTOH, it was just a TB and I found out later (say at the TB log page) that it was launched by such a group, I'd move it on, but report it to Groudspeak.

I think the rhetoric is getting pretty inflamed here, and since people are insisting on creating strawmen to attack me with, is going south. So I'm unlikely to respond any further, but if you really feel the need, you can email me to carry on the conversation.

I had hoped this discussion could remain civil, but that's so often too much to ask in any forum on the net.

Obnoxious Tb Log

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