Benchmarks...and Private Property?

[Kemo_Sabe]

So, I found my second benchmark, and the owner was out, so I told him that I wanted to document the benchmark. He said no, so I explained a little more about what I was doing and he still said no. So I said that's cool....and left.

 

So, what should I do in a situation like that? Isn't the benchmark public property?

 

Background info: The benchmark is about 10 feet from a main road, on a corner lot.

[+nfa]

if it's on public property, go for it...if it's on private property, ask for permission...if the owner says no, then go find another benchmark...

 

jamie

[+Quiggle]

Moving this over to the benchmarking forum.

[Kemo_Sabe]

oops...sorry, I didn't even realize that there was a benchmark forum....sorry. Needless to say I'm new...

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Welcome to benchmark hunting.

 

You can just log a 'note' or 'not found' with the facts as you stated...on private property and the owner says no trespassing.

 

Even the surveyors that help us out on this forum will tell you, if it is private property, get permission or don't trespass.

 

We have logged several with a note stating that the mark is behind a locked gate or not available and the reason why.

 

Happy Hunting!

 

Shirley~

[+Quiggle]

oops...sorry, I didn't even realize that there was a benchmark forum....sorry.  Needless to say I'm new...

It happens. You'll find the people here are much more knowledgeable about benchmarks than in the geocaching forums.

 

Happy hunting!

[+ShadowAce]

All benchmark pages have this on them:

 

Must read!

Benchmarks may be on private property or in dangerous locations. Obey local laws.

 

USGS letter on private lands.

 

Since geocachers looking for benchmarks is a sport, not part of an official job, and the USGS has set up some very strict settings for thier own employee's. We tend to avoid Benchmarks on Private property.

 

In no way shall I pretend to be an official when benchmark hunting.

 

If you read through the reports of previous logs by the USGS and other organizations who check these for a living, you will eventually find offical reports like:

NOTE: mark is on private property and can not be leveled.

 

Even they cannot get to the mark.

 

NOAA Manual

Maintaining Good Public Relations

 

The purpose of the Federal Government is to serve the public. Pertaining to the establishment and maintenance of geodetic control, this principle has at least two applications. One is to gain the understanding and good will of the public. Another is to project the credibility of the National Ocean Survey/National Geodetic Survey through the visible evidence of its mission-survey control markers.

 

These objectives can be accomplished with only a little extra effort. Always obtain permission from the landowner when setting bench marks on private property. Responsible officials must be consulted when a prospective site is located on public or corporate land. If approached in a polite and tactful manner, a hesitant individual often can be persuaded to permit installation at the desired site. Most citizens can be convinced to take personal interest in having a bench mark carrying NGS's distinction on their property. Appeal to the individual's public spirit. Explain what bench marks are used for, the need for their stability and durability, and the expense involved with replacing them. The setting of bench marks provides an excellent opportunity to make the public aware of NOS/NGS activities. Under no circumstances shall a bench mark be installed on an unwilling property owner's land, thereby provoking hostility toward the Federal Government.

 

NOAA information

ACCESSIBILITY

 

Accessible public property should be utilized where feasible. If

the station is located on private property, permission must be

obtained from the land owner for station accessibility. Include

the name, address, and, if public ownership, the telephone number

of the responsible party. Do not include telephone numbers of

private property owners.

 

Basically - If it is private property and the land owner does not grant permission, get out of the area before trouble finds you []

[Photobuff]

On a positive note, I've met only wonderful friendly helpful people, who were just as curious as I was. I'm sure sooner or later I'll run across somebody that isn't, but it hasn't happened yet. Also (and maybe somebody can enlighten me on this as well) it would be good to find out how far the public right-of-way extends on the side of the road and of purchased rail beds. Another somewhat obvious thing- a local DEC officer told me that when working around posted property, as long as you could read the printing on the sign, that is, were in front of the line, you were ok. That means sometimes I can go a bit further off the road than I might otherwise, depending on where they put the signs.

[mloser]

Like Photobuff I too have been met with only approval, although one time it was grudging. In over 1,000 recoveries I have never been told no. And despite my posst about railroads in another thread, I DO indeed always get permission on what I know is privately owned land. Some seem curious, some seem baffled, but they usually say "sure, go ahead". A couple have tagged along, or asked me to show them the mark when I found it. One dug three holes in his yard to help me find a tri-station (yes, we found all three marks). And even the person who gave me his grudging approval was interested in how the marks were used after he stopped and listed to me a bit.

 

Usually though, they just stand and talk to me for 10-20 minutes and hold me up from looking for my next mark!

 

Photobuff, interesting note about the trespassing signs. There is also right-of-way from the roads that usually extends onto adjacent properties which theoretically gives you a distance away from the edge of the road to search freely. This right of way is pretty noticable along interstates because it is often fenced, but it exists on most roads. I think marks set along roads are most often set in this "safety zone"--for one thing it meant that the setting party didn't have to ask permission of every landowner. Still, if the land is strongly marked as no trespassing, and the mark is not visible, I tend to not wander around near the signs. even on the correct side of them. Chances are that the mark Kemo-Sabe was looking for was on this public right of way, but I wouldn't test it!

[Kemo_Sabe]

who knows if it was on a right of way...I asked and they said no. I wouldn't want someone walking around my property or near my property if I told them to not be there. There were no trespassing signs and was not fenced in. They were standing outside, so I asked. I logged found it, because I did find it, but just didn't take a picture.

 

I find it interesting that the NGS has to get permission to do whatever with thier benchmarks. The electic company sure doesn't ask permission to read my meter box every month(which is next to my house, actually mounted on my house), and other utility companys...

 

HEHE, but I'm happy ...I might actually go back later and get permission and take the picture(squeeky wheel gets the grease )

[+GeckoGeek]

I find it interesting that the NGS has to get permission to do whatever with thier benchmarks. The electic company sure doesn't ask permission to read my meter box every month(which is next to my house, actually mounted on my house), and other utility companys... 

 

If you read the fine print in the paperwork when you signed up for the service, I think you'll find that you agreed to let them come on the property for that purpose. After all, you do having a working relationship with them. Typical homeowners have no relationship to any surveying company.

[+CharlieP]

The electic company sure doesn't ask permission to read my meter box every month(which is next to my house, actually mounted on my house), and other utility companys...

You could deny the electric company access to the meter on your house, but you should stock up on candles and firewood first. If you are planning to watch the Super Bowl from home, I would wait until Monday to contact them.

[+chaosmanor]

One point that didn't come in this is that there are many cases where Stations are set up on "public" land which is later sold. I can think of easily a dozen that I've tried to find in California which fit this scenario. Other times, permission was given by an owner to set up a Station, but a new owner was not told of this arrangement, and does not want anyone coming on his property for any reason. So It Goes. In yet at least two other cases that I know of, a BM along a public road was suddenly shifted onto private property by a "land swap", so that the road could be re-routed onto a better line. The older road was turned over to the person who owned the land where the road now runs. Permission to find the marks wasn't forthcoming. Oh, well! Finally, in San Luis Obispo County, at least two public roads were completely decommissioned, and the property was sold to local ranchers. Some three dozen (at least) stations which primary use was for measurement of earth movement (they are all along the San Andreas Fault Zone) are now on private property, and difficult to reach, or even determine who owns the property. The fact that they are out-dated for their original purpose doesn't make it any easier to shrug off that I can't get to them. But I have no choice. Well, there are thousands of others to look for :-)

[+Cyclometh]

who knows if it was on a right of way...I asked and they said no. I wouldn't want someone walking around my property or near my property if I told them to not be there. There were no trespassing signs and was not fenced in. They were standing outside, so I asked. I logged found it, because I did find it, but just didn't take a picture.

 

I find it interesting that the NGS has to get permission to do whatever with thier benchmarks. The electic company sure doesn't ask permission to read my meter box every month(which is next to my house, actually mounted on my house), and other utility companys...

 

HEHE, but I'm happy ...I might actually go back later and get permission and take the picture(squeeky wheel gets the grease )

 

I don't think they have to get permission, but they prefer to. In the State of Washington, a registered surveyor has the right to enter private property in order to conduct survey operations, and it's a crime to interfere with them. That said, it's also in the law that the surveyor must do their best to not be a jackass and work with the property owner and minimize issues.

 

Keep in mind that many of these marks were monumented before these areas were sold for private property, or have since changed hands.

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

I don't think they have to get permission, but they prefer to. In the State of Washington, a registered surveyor has the right to enter private property in order to conduct survey operations, and it's a crime to interfere with them....

 

Many States have a 'Right of Entry' law for surveying purposes on the books. Those laws allow the surveyor to accomplish his task without the fear of breaking any trespass laws, whether or not the property is fenced or posted. However, it IS in the surveyor's best interest to ask permission if possible. Knocking on a door or two and letting the property owner or resident know who you are and what you're up to can solve a multitude of problems before they happen.

 

I probably does not need to be said, but it should be noted that a recreational benchmark hunter is not performing a survey, and is still very much subject to any trespass laws.

 

From the California Business & Professions Code, Section 8774:

( a ) The right of entry upon or to real property to investigate and utilize boundary evidence, and to perform surveys, is a right of persons legally authorized to practice land surveying, and it is the responsibility of the owner or tenant who owns or controls property to provide reasonable access without undue delay. The right of entry is not contingent upon the provision of prior notice to the owner or tenant. However, the owner or tenant shall be notified of the proposed time of entry where practicable.

( b ) The requirements of subdivision (a) do not apply to monuments within access-controlled portions of freeways.

( c ) When required for a property survey, monuments within a freeway right-of-way shall be referenced to usable points outside the access control line by the agency having jurisdiction over the freeway when requested in writing by the registered civil engineer or licensed land surveyor who is to perform the property survey. The work shall be done within a reasonable time period by the agency in direct cooperation with the engineer or surveyor and at no charge to him or her.

 

...I find it interesting that the NGS has to get permission to do whatever with thier benchmarks. The electic company sure doesn't ask permission to read my meter box every month(which is next to my house, actually mounted on my house), and other utility companys....

 

Keep in mind that you DO give the power company the permission to read your meter every time you use their power and send them a check for it. You have the right to use a particular utility and they have the right to monitor your usage. You don't have to let them read your meter, and they don't have to send any power through that meter.

 

- Kewaneh