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Subscription Only Caches--grrrrrrrrrr!


Pinster56

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Ok, how is that different from SCUBA divers only caches?

Or mountain climber only caches?

Or caches you need a boat or 4x4 to access?

Or caches that require a multi-day hike?

Or caches that require you to figure out a puzzle?

Not everyone can dive, rock climb, or hike 30 miles for a cache.

Not everyone can afford a boat or offroad vehicle.

Not everyone can figure out a puzzle.

Should all those be banned for discriminating too?

 

Not everyone can hike even 1.5 miles. Should those be banned as well?

But at least they are allowed to try. They are not restricted from viewing the cache page, if you can make it to the cache or not is one thing, prohibiting someone from going to the cache is another.

 

As for the all women event, was it an MOC or were all women invited?

 

-----------------------------

Member Only Caches

Some caches are only available to Premium Members. This has been a request of many geocachers who want to put more energy into designing a cache for dedicated geocachers. As the cache owner, you can make any of your caches "subscriber only" so folks will need a subscription to seek it out. (Note: Member Only caches may not be any better than public geocaches. Each cache is managed by its cache owner.)

 

So your telling me here that having money makes you a more dedicated cacher? I've seen newbies come here with PM's and don't even know if they are allowed to log a MOC! Why is it not based on how many caches you have found? Am I not a dedicated cacher because I don't pay pittance?

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Seems this is destined to become a topic that never dies. The condescending "you shouldn't complain because you are too cheap to pay $3 a month" argument will NEVER fly with people who believe in the principle of "Geocaching should be free."

 

I don't believe Groundspeak's primary intention was to do MOCs for exclusivity like golf clubs, luxury boxes, and the like. Paying members demanded a feature in attempt to protect their caches, so it was implemented. PBS (public television) will give special little perks to paying members, but will still allow most of their programs to be seen by public without extra charge. I think that is a better analogy for what MOC is, a special little perk.

 

I still view Premium Membership as a service, as tools like Pocket Query, instant notification, bookmarks, ignore and watch lists, and zoomable maps are meant to save effort and time, and not to create a social/economic barrier. When I was caching as a non-PM, I happily ignored MOCs, thanks to local cachers who rarely used that feature. After I became a PM, MOC was just another cache, ho-hum, I didn't feel any more special finding one.

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Does anyone else out there (who is a basic member) get aggravated when a " Subscription Only Cache" pops up in your area? ...... It's hard enough for a lot of us to make ends meet and those who cannot afford a premium membership should NOT be penalized for being a basic member!

Ok, I read the first page and stopped since this has all been hashed out and I know how the posts go.

 

Here's my problem with the OP.

 

Why is it that everytime something is done FOR somebody, somebody else will say it's being done AGAINST them? (or in this case "penailzed')?

 

When did it become wrong to do something FOR people??? The world doesn't revolve around any one person or group. People need to stop thinking that everything is about them.

 

It's like the whole mess around Christmas Trees, Christmas Holiday, etc. Somebody gets upset becuase they feel like this holiday is EXCLUDING them instead of being FOR others and look where we are now. Heaven forbid if you say the word Christmas now instead of Holiday.

 

I don't want to get off topic and start a religious war here, but that's the similarity I see.

 

Not everybody is included in everything. I learned this in about 2nd grade.

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The plain truth is that Geocaching.com is a business. And i know that it' philosophy has always been that the site would never charge for the basic services. But with the sport growing so much i don't see how it's been able to keep that philosophy going. Bottom line is that it does cost money to provide it's services to us. I know they receive it from a variety of sources but i would imagine that a big portion of it comes from paying customers. If MOCs help to bring in more paying customers, then good for them!

 

WOW, a whopping 30 dollars a year! :D For someone to offer the excuse that they can't afford this is rediculous. So why is it that there are so many people who believe that everyone else owes them or that they shouldn't have to pay when others provide services for them?

 

Hmmmm,,, now that ive read this thread, i'm probably going to start listing my caches as MO. :drama:

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OMG!!! Why hasn't anybody gotten this poor soul some cheese to go with his whine?

 

Get over it already. I've never placed a MO cache and probably never will but they don't bother me a bit. I pay my lousy $3.00 a month (well, actually I only pay $2.50 a month since I paid yearly) and it helps to support the site that gives me so much pleasure. It's incredibly cheap for what I get. Quit complaining.

 

:cry::D:cry::D:cry::D:cry::huh::cry:B)

 

:D:D:drama::cool::lol::lol::wub::):):D

Edited by Thrak
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To be a member, one only has to pay $3/month of $30/year.  I find it difficult to believe that folks who frequent gc.com or the forums can't come up with $3 if they really want to.

 

Now, if membership cost were truly a substantial amount, or memberships were only open to people with red hair or people that lived in certain zip codes or people with certain beliefs, then yes, that would be promoting exclusivity.

So if membership so inexpensive, and its not about making exclusive caches why have a pay membership at all? Or why not make EVERYONE pay? Then there would be no issues abou exclusivity.

You are only excluded if you choose to be.

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I recently turned two of my caches into MO caches. It is not because I want to restrict them to people with money, but because I don't have a lot of money to replace them. We had a cache maggot in our area who stole about 15 caches in a weekend. Another one who kills the caches and keeps the TB. I put about $30 into each ammo box I put out. I'm going to take care of them. A friend of mine who is a premium member found it with her daughter, who wasn't. I turned off the premium attribute, and let her log it. I think most folks in the area do the same. We are not being "hoity-toity" We are just doing anything we can to protect our caches, and Travel bugs going through our area.

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The responsiveness here from TPTB is phenomenal. I've participated in a lot of forums elsewhere and have never seen anyplace where requests for features, fixes, upgrades, etc. have been answered so quickly. Normally you never even see a response from admins at all or, if you do, it's much (much!) later and generally nothing is done to accomodate the request. Here on gc.com requests are taken seriously, looked at quickly, responded to quickly, and either fixed/implemented (or not) quickly. Additionally, if the fix or whatever is NOT implemented there is generally an explanation as to why it wasn't done.

 

Like I said above, I've participated in a lot of forums and such. Even if I ONLY used the forums the piddling fee would be worth it just for the level of attention and response from the admins here.

Edited by Thrak
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Does anyone else out there (who is a basic member) get aggravated when a " Subscription Only Cache" pops up in your area? Every week I always hope a new cache will pop into my cleared radius and when it does, it often is one of these hoity-toity subscription only caches ....This is a cheesy way Geocaching.com has come up with to try to get us to pay for a premium membership. A fun sport such as gocaching should be available to all--not just those who pay extra. Fine if you want to pay extra for special techniques like Pocket Queries, but it's wrong to have to pay just to search for a cache. It's hard enough for a lot of us to make ends meet and those who cannot afford a premium membership should NOT be penalized for being a basic member!

Your welcome anyway!!

My membership comes due in April. I'll pay another year. No problem. It would be a bargain at twice the price. (You didn't read that Jeremy)

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Some people like to reward those who support the site with memberships by giving them first crack at finding a cache.

Ditto, All of my cache hides will start out MO, 1 week after the FTF I will change them to all-seekers. I do this simply to reward members and not reward non-members

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If you are truly so dissatisfied with the issue of MOCs why not start your own web site that we all could come to and get your cache listings for free? ;)

There are so few MOC's compared to regular C's that this ought to be an irrelevant issue. I don't get it. :D:DB):DB)B)B):D:D

Does a redwood tree start out 20 feet tall? No, it is a very small seed that starts something quite huge. If this option is available now, give it the opportunity to grow, and water it with people who are supportive of the feature. In time we will have a site where all caches are by subscription only, and hate to see it start in the worlds best cache listing site.

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Ok, how is that different from SCUBA divers only caches?

Or mountain climber only caches?

Or caches you need a boat or 4x4 to access?

Or caches that require a multi-day hike?

Or caches that require you to figure out a puzzle?

Not everyone can dive, rock climb, or hike 30 miles for a cache.

Not everyone can afford a boat or offroad vehicle.

Not everyone can figure out a puzzle.

Should all those be banned for discriminating too?

 

Not everyone can hike even 1.5 miles. Should those be banned as well?

 

SO WHAT if there are caches you can't or won't do?

You are never gonna be able to do ALL the caches on the site anyway, so what's the difference?

I would say that its different because MOCs generally require payment to Groundspeak.

Scuba caches, mountain climbing caches, 4x4 caches, etc, may require certain ability, equipment, maybe even special training, but they can be attained many places. If a cache would require you pay $ to a certain and specifc commerical business it would be called commerical. Wasn't there a event cache delisted for a while, a week or two ago because it had 'buying something from the menu' as a logging requirement?

Yes, Groundspeak can and has allowed commerical caches from time to time. It approves of MOCs (obviously), but they're still commerical. I'm actually surprized more parks haven't caught on to that, I guess its good MOCs are a small fraction of all caches.

 

And while I'm writing, some replies have commented about Groundspeak needing/deserving money. Has anyone in this thread even said they shouldn't be allowed to make money? 'MOCs are bad' does not equal 'Groundspeak can't make money' :D

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Stop-Kitten.jpg

Kitten Cache! Wow what a great idea!

Take one leave one I can just read the logs

now ( Easy find just listen for the pathetic meow of a dozen felines crammed in a box.

Took siamese and left an American Wirehair and some kitty litter.) now that would be

fun.

But it would have to be MOC cause all the non premium people would only leave

junk yard strays.

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Seems this is destined to become a topic that never dies. The condescending "you shouldn't complain because you are too cheap to pay $3 a month" argument will NEVER fly with people who believe in the principle of "Geocaching should be free."

 

I think I would better understand this perspective if someone would talk about their thinking behind this much-referenced principle. I would be interested to have some words put to it. Insisting that folks are failing to see the principle of the matter is inadequate...it would be helpful to define your principle. I do not understand why accessing geocaches "should" be cost-free. I mean, it's a groovy benefit that most caches are freely available, but what unique quality does geocaching have that sets it apart from other outdoor sports and makes it philisophically incompatible with access fees?

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If you are truly so dissatisfied with the issue of MOCs why not start your own web site that we all could come to and get your cache listings for free? ;)

There are so few MOC's compared to regular C's that this ought to be an irrelevant issue. I don't get it. :D:DB):DB)B)B):D:D

That true there are very few MOCs ( at least in my area). Perhaps my point is lost.

 

Simply put if you don’t like the system and you don’t want to spend the $3 a month on this site (or others that have paid levels of membership), then go out and create your own membership/ad free site listing caches for all who visit it.

 

<sarcasm>It must certainly be less to create and have your web site hosted then the $3 a month membership here. </sarcasm>

 

</my $.02>

Edited by grueinthedark
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You have three choices.

 

1-Pony up the three bucks a months and find the darn things.

2-Refuse to pay, move on and concentrate on the 200,000+ caches out there that are not subscriber only.

3-Refuse to pay and whine about an infinitesimal number of caches that you won't be able to find.

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Good Morning!!!!  All this flap might be meaningful if the MO caches were something special that the rest of us were missing out on.. but look at them.  Lamp post micros.. soccer field caches.. Most of them are not prime caches that are any better than others in the same areas so why get your panties in a bunch because you can't get the smiley there.. go around the block and get another one instead.  Make your caches muggle proof?  If they need this little bit of extra protection then may I suggest they be placed in a less conspicuous spot.  A half mile off the nearest trail is probably muggle proof enough unless you use a blaze orange box sitting out in the open :D

.

I reserve MO caches for my better stocked caches, none of them are micros, or caches under a lamp post. This is a bad assumption.

 

Here are pictures of the original cache contents for two of my MO caches.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/sgbofav/100_0451.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/sgbofav/CacheItems.jpg

center a search around 19508 and see what I am seeing.

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Good Morning!!!!  All this flap might be meaningful if the MO caches were something special that the rest of us were missing out on.. but look at them.  Lamp post micros.. soccer field caches.. Most of them are not prime caches that are any better than others in the same areas so why get your panties in a bunch because you can't get the smiley there.. go around the block and get another one instead.  Make your caches muggle proof?  If they need this little bit of extra protection then may I suggest they be placed in a less conspicuous spot.  A half mile off the nearest trail is probably muggle proof enough unless you use a blaze orange box sitting out in the open :D

.

I reserve MO caches for my better stocked caches, none of them are micros, or caches under a lamp post. This is a bad assumption.

 

Here are pictures of the original cache contents for two of my MO caches.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/sgbofav/100_0451.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/sgbofav/CacheItems.jpg

OK fine.. except for Kit Foxes caches...... most of the members only caches are not any better than the normal cache. There are a couple around here that are good as well, but the average MO is no better than the average "public" cache.

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Seems this is destined to become a topic that never dies. The condescending "you shouldn't complain because you are too cheap to pay $3 a month" argument will NEVER fly with people who believe in the principle of "Geocaching should be free."

 

I think I would better understand this perspective if someone would talk about their thinking behind this much-referenced principle. I would be interested to have some words put to it. Insisting that folks are failing to see the principle of the matter is inadequate...it would be helpful to define your principle. I do not understand why accessing geocaches "should" be cost-free. I mean, it's a groovy benefit that most caches are freely available, but what unique quality does geocaching have that sets it apart from other outdoor sports and makes it philisophically incompatible with access fees?

My guess is that the "free" refers to "freely available" and some people feel any sort of economic barrier hinders it. Frankly, I'm confused as to which side the OP is really on, because he talks about premium TV subscriptions and TiVo, yet argues that Geocaching subscription is a financial strain. :D

 

It's another story if people enjoy Geocaching but do not like Groundspeak, so they withold payment as a protest. Not sure if anyone has claimed this directly in the forums thus far. B)

 

As with other threads on this topic, it's going downhill as usual. I feel like an idiot who is trying to speak in an yelling match - should have stayed quiet as I did in the past. B)

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center a search around 19508 and see what I am seeing.

 

I went out to about a 20 mile raduis of the ZIP code you supplied. I saw that less than 10 percent of the caches in that radius were MOC. I am drunk, however so maybe I didn't count accurately. :D

 

Edit: Added quote (I hope)

Edited by Trinity's Crew
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Ok, saw the pics, Im hittin edcaches hides soon :D

 

Anyone that sits on this web site and says that it should be free hasn't bought anything to help with Caching have they. Since I started this I have bought,

*Plastic bags of all shapes and sizes,

*Containers of all shapes and sizes, plus camo tape

*spray paint, glue,fake vines,wood to disguise caches with.

*walking stick

*Flashlights

*BATTERIES..lots and lots of batteries

*Pack, water bottles,sunscreen,band aids,more water,

*Hand held pruning shears, rope(love buying rope, its like Crack to me)

*pens, pencils, notebooks, notepads,stamp, stamp pad

*Camera, stickers

*Oh yea and like $200.00 above and beyond what I would normally spend on gas to go to places to hunt.

All in all I would say I have spent close to four to five hundred dollars and I have been doing this for about two months ( mostly on the getting started stuff). This is no different than any other hobby. You can spend a few dollars and have fun or you can spend several thousand and still have fun. Just like any collecting (stamps, sportscards, caches) you can be happy with collecting what you can afford or want to spend or you can sit around and get mad that someone can afford more stuff than you. In the end, its all about the hunt.

 

Edited for my stupid grammer/Spelling mistakes (DANG YOU BILL GATES AND YOUR SPELLCHECK! DANG YOU TO ALL HECK!)

Edited by Davispak
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My sister had a cache on public land, with permission, and it was repeatedly destroyed by a nutty woman who lived nearby and seemed to think the nature preserve was hers. She claimed cachers trespassed in her yard, threw rocks at her house, etc. She even found out my sister's phone number and called her and harassed her. The cache was moved but she kept finding it (via the website). The only thing that solved the problem was making it MO. Apparently the woman wasn't nutty enough to pay $30 to find out where it went.

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MOC's are created to generate exclusivity.

You have GOT to be kidding. What about level 5 terrain caches? What about puzzle caches? I'm using my last remaining brain cell here, and I don't complain about those puzzle caches excluding me. :D If some people cannot afford the 75 cents a week, then they ought to trade in the GPS, get a job, and stop raiding caches for those "Where's George" dollars. B)

BTW to find a "Members Only" cache properly, a person needs to go back to 1985 and get a "Members Only" jacket to wear for the occasion. Most people do not do this, and it disturbs me, but I dont complain about it now do I ? B)

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I agree with subscription only caches, especially at first :D . I also believe in membership fees to those who want it. Someone has to support the sport. Also, I enjoy "giving back" to a sport/activity that has given me so many memories, fun, and great times B) .

 

I do commend them for allowing individuals to join for free, but think about the fun of geocaching!!! $30 bucks is nothing compared to the coffee and movies some of us buy or rent. Where else can $30 a year buy you so much fun...? Wait some of us probably shouldn't answer that B)

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I found these great sites (geocaching.com & forums.Groundspeak.com) that promoted a sport I love. They supply volumes of information and services that has increased my enjoyment many fold over and saved me lots of frustration and money through a free flow of information! I was SO impressed I donated $30 to them as a thank you and the next thing I know they give me more gifts including free PM cache listings! What a sweet deal.

Edited by atascadero
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Some businesses give away a few free samples to get potential customers interested in the product. GC gives away most of its product free, and allows current customers to determine the few paid items (MOCs). If they gave you a fifty-dollar bill, you'd gripe that it wasn't a hundred.

 

Since paid members make the decision, why not petition them to open a particular MOC to non-paying members? Send 'em an email, plead poverty or principle and see what they say.

 

Personally, I'm more leery of the audit feature (allowing owners to see that I've viewed their cache page and draw silly conclusions) than the "exclusivity" of MOCs.

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Okay, everyone is clouding the issue, here is how I stand on MOC, and I have a feeling this is how the OP as well.

 

We have no ill feelings for Groundspeak or Premium Members, we will probably even become PM's given a change in circumstsnces.

 

We do not have any issues with PQ's, and advanced features. I don't have a problem with the Off Topic forums being PM only. I also thing $3 a month/ #30 a year is a reasonable fee.

 

Most of all, this isn't about the money, we could all technically "afford" it if we needed to.

 

MOC's are an obsolete feature that is no longer serving a useful purpose. Given it is based on paying membership makes it not fair to people who decide not to join the site by giving money. If it were based upon a cachers find count, a more reliable way to determine the cachers motives, it would be fair to all. Also the option to restrict the cache to members of a certain standing (i.e. find count) should be on a temporary basis to elude cache maggots or to ensure a "reputable" cacher enjoys the FTF prize. After that, it is everyones cache.

 

You Premium Members are seeming to get increasingly hostile towards non PM's. Were all cahers here, some of us want the PM features, others of us can do without them. I've been reading comments about: "I make my cache MOC to make sure only a good cacher gets it." What are we? Chopped liver? Non PM's cache just as much as you do. In 6 months I've found 128 caches without a PQ, without cache maps, and without any problems. Sure I'll become a PM, I could do it now if I wanted, but don't accuse me of being a bad cacher because I am not.

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You Premium Members are seeming to get increasingly hostile towards non PM's.

Actually, I have never noticed any hostility between premium and non-premium members. The cachers that I know don't care one way or the other.

It seems like, at this time, the hostility is directed at you, and it's not because you are a non-premium member.

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It seems like, at this time, the hostility is directed at you, and it's not because you are a non-premium member.

And the evidence of this is that I do not aggree with the majority of posters? Whoever said that you could not discuss anything in these forums without it getting into a personal issue was right.

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Hmmmm......one can afford a GPSr but cannot/will not support the listing service for the caches.

 

Do you expect free coffee at <insert large coffee chain here> or perhaps free gasoline for your car?

 

Cheers!

Don't push that button. I've gone through this issue before. You have no idea what allowed the person to gain the GPS.

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After geocaching for 3 and a half years, I've only seen about 6-8 MO caches in my area. So I missed out on a few, no big deal. That wasn't why I became a premium member. It was because I felt like supporting the activity more directly than just buying merchandise (which I bought a lot of) because it was giving me a lot of enjoyment. It was then that I found out what for me are the real benefits of PM status, the pocket queries and notifications. Well worth the money.

 

The MO caches are just an additional perk and not a major one at all but its still a perk and membership should have that. You want to get 100% instead of 99.995% then pay the $30/year. If not, then you aren't missing that much in terms of caches but you are missing some big benefits in the other member features.

 

JDandDD

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It's more the principle of the thing than the money...I just don't see the point in these members only caches... Why would you make one, anyway? I thought the point is for as many cachers as possible to find your cache?

I'm considering caches in areas where I'd prefer the finds be limited, in which case they'll be MO.

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it often is one of these hoity-toity subscription only caches ....This is a cheesy way Geocaching.com has come up with to try to get us to pay for a premium membership.

Several of my caches are "members only". I don't think any of them are "Hoity-Toity". I made them "members only" for good reasons, which I don't need to defend to someone intent on insulting my caches. The key words here is "I", as in, "I did this". Geocaching.com did not make my caches for members only. How then can GC be "cheesy"?

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Given it is based on paying membership makes it not fair to people who decide not to join the site by giving money. If it were based upon a cachers find count, a more reliable way to determine the cachers motives, it would be fair to all.

Oh, I get it! You think life is fair! Where did you get such a nonsensical idea as that? I'll be sure to rush over and tell my son that life is fair. He broke his neck in the Army when he was 20 years old and will never walk or have good use of his hands - and those are the least of his problems. Yep, that's fair. He would LOVE to geocache if he could. You complain that you "can't" do a few MO caches even though you could if you weren't so cheap or self-righteous. He can't do any caches.

 

If you want to whine about "fair" then you lose all credibility. People who whine that "it's not fair" make me angry. :D:D:D:huh::);):P:D:):D:D:D:D

Edited by Thrak
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If you are truly so dissatisfied with the issue of MOCs why not start your own web site that we all could come to and get your cache listings for free? :D

There are so few MOC's compared to regular C's that this ought to be an irrelevant issue. I don't get it. :):D:D:D:D:D:huh:;):P

Does a redwood tree start out 20 feet tall? No, it is a very small seed that starts something quite huge. If this option is available now, give it the opportunity to grow, and water it with people who are supportive of the feature. In time we will have a site where all caches are by subscription only, and hate to see it start in the worlds best cache listing site.

And sadly life will end. :)

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center a search around 19508 and see what I am seeing.

 

I went out to about a 20 mile raduis of the ZIP code you supplied. I saw that less than 10 percent of the caches in that radius were MOC. I am drunk, however so maybe I didn't count accurately. :D

 

Edit: Added quote (I hope)

Yes, but the discussion was quality not quantity. My point was that MO caches are usually no better than regular caches so I see no need to worry about them. There are more than enough caches out there to keep me busy for years.. ....way more years than I have. If I was really obsessed with finding them it can be done without a membership anyhow. I've done about three and they are good caches.

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I was really trying to stay out of this, but I have to respond:

 

(BigWhiteTruck @ Jan 27 2006, 02:20 PM)

It seems you are displeased with two things here:

 

Membership fees

You obviously aren't paying them, I don't know why.

 

Because he doesn't have to? What percentage of all cachers everywhere are paying members? 10%? Or is it even that high? Of all the cachers I know, very few are premium members.

 

Groundspeak could easily make every cache "Premium-only", but they don't.

 

This was what got to me. Groundspeak could certainly make every cache available to those who paid, and they could also make the fees whatever they wanted to - if they chose to make memberships $10/week, or if they chose to make it "Pay by the download," what recourse would anyone have? Pay it or don't. Just like now. If Geocaching were closed to non-premium members, most participants would stop playing. Whether they took their caches with them or just left them abandoned, they'd stop. They'd also stop buying T-Shirts and trinkets, which ALSO goes a long way torward supporting Groundspeak. You don't suppose only premium members are buying that stuff, do you?

 

Geocaching would fall apart, at least the 'official' Geocaching site and all its associated areas. And sooner or later - most likely sooner - someone would start up a FREE site, with just the basics, like Geocaching used to be. Do you NEED pocket queries, GSAK, and all that carp to go geocaching? No. Do you NEED a discussion forum so people who haven't been outside their mom's basement in 5 years can blather on about why "this" is better than "that" and how stupid one is if they don't know it? (I'm not accusing anybody personally here, but I am observing a stereotype) No. Can you go caching without your Geocaching-dot-com goodie bag, key chain, window stickers, and all the other souvenirs? Sure.

 

My point is, it's an empty threat to say that they COULD make all caches pay-only. They'll never do it. Too little to gain, and too much to lose.

Edited by Ed_S
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