Caution ! Heads Up !

January 27, 2006

Hi

I am new to this, but I like it and so do my kids. We always geocache together and what we like is being taken off the beaten path. But I just became away that where I live, in New York State ( Long Island) there are steel jawed leg hold traps located on state parks. The DEC states that it is legal to place these in most state parks and that they don't keep track of their location. This would cause significant harm to a child or an adult if stepped on. A dog on Long Island was just killed by one see this web link http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisla...0,6695208.story

Just for your information!

regards BoGoes

1.8k · January 27, 2006

A barbaric forum of entertainment (in todays world) that has yet to be eliminated by civilized humans. Maybe steel leg traps had a useful purpose in history but they simply are not needed in the 21st century. Steel leg traps are an extremely cruel form of animal capture and should be illegal.

And please save the animal wacko carp ... I've been an NRA member for over 10 years and have hunted or been involved with hunting almost my entire life. Steel leg traps are used by lazy under-educated dipsticks that don't mind being creul to animals.

When I hunt, I only harvest what my family can consume in a reasonable time period. When hunting, I believe the animal should be put down instantly or as quickly as possible. Most people who use steel leg traps are too lazy to hunt any other way.

1.5k · January 27, 2006

I can see it now..."hey look a new type of cache device....CRUNCH....maybe not" :lol:

January 27, 2006

You can't own a firearm without a permit, but you can place potentially deadly traps in parks???!?! :lol:

What a state.

2.7k · January 27, 2006

I encountered a trap a while back and posted in the forums, too.

Since then I have also spoken to some others with a little more knowledge of trapping. From these conversations, I have come to believe that the danger to humans (with possible exception of small children) of the traps normally used (at least in Indiana) is somewhat overrated.

One gentleman I spoke with said a DNR man demonstrated one of the traps that DNR was using to capture bobcats. He put his hand in the trap and let is snap on his hand without injury. (I doubt that it FELT good!)

His point was that the traps did not cause serious injury to the animals, which was a real good thing since they were not trapping for fur or food, but only to enable them to install a tracking collar and do a physical health checkup on the animals.

I am sure that there are different sizes and strengths of traps and that some might be more dangerous, especially those with toothed jaws (which are illegal in Indiana).

We need to be watchful for traps and careful around places where thay might be (ANYWHERE), but I don't think we need to lay awake nights worring about getting our hands caught.

Trapping is a legal sport and interfering with traps is a crime. The DNR traditionally doesn't have much sympathy for people who are ignorant of game laws. Best advice for cachers is watch where you put your handsand if you find a trap, leave it alone.

WATCH WHERE YOU PUT YOUR HANDS! Good advice all the way around, there are a lot of things out there that don't make for "happy hands".

1.5k · January 27, 2006

Well this could lead to a career spike in shop teachers.

In all honesty I was never aware that traps could be put in places like that. I'm glad I am not caching in those areas cause I have done many caches off the beaten path before.

2.7k · January 27, 2006

I'm glad I am not caching in those areas

But You Do!

Perhaps you missed a salient point of the OP; there are traps in state parks.

In my "research" a few months ago, I found out that there are virtually NO LIMITS on where traps can be placed in Indiana (your locale may vary).

Conceivably, a trapper could place a leg hold trap (trappers prefer to call the "foot hold traps"- I'm not sure why- probably because of bad press) in an elementary school yard at the end of the slide. (I doubt you will ever find one there)

Most trappers are decent, conscientious people and would never intentionally or knowingly place one where it would endanger anyone. But most trappers probably do not know about geocachers and that they stick their hands in odd, out of the way places.

Edited January 27, 2006 by Confuse-A-Cat

1.5k · January 27, 2006

I'm glad I am not caching in those areas

But You Do!

Perhaps you missed a salient point of the OP; there are traps in state parks.

In my "research" a few months ago, I found out that there are virtually NO LIMITS on where traps can be placed in Indiana (your locale may vary).

Conceivably, a trapper could place a leg hold trap (trappers prefer to call the "foot hold traps"- I'm not sure why- probably because of bad press) in an elementary school yard at the end of the slide. (I doubt you will ever find one there)

Most trappers are decent, conscientious people and would never intentionally or knowingly place one where it would endanger anyone.

Last time I checked I did not think state parks in South Carolina were allowed but if you can find proof then please show me, cause honestly I don't know.

2.7k · January 27, 2006

Actually, if you limit your caching to state parks, you probably have very little to watch out for, since there are probably very few trappers that would place one there anyway because of the potential for trap disturbance and bad press.

The fringe woods around ball fields and public hunting lands are much more likely places to encounter them.

I can tell you from experience, stepping on a trap, of the size typically set for coon and skunk, is pretty much harmless (unless perhaps you cache berefooted, in which case traps are the least of your worries) :lol:

1.5k · January 27, 2006

Most hunters I know down here don't trap at all, bears for sure are illegal

January 27, 2006

*sigh*

Too bad we can't respect other people's hobbies without interjecting our personal opinions and looking down on them. Ever thought that maybe the traps serve a usefull purpose, like keeping a population in check? Around here, beavers do incredible damage to agricultural drainage systems--there's a $50 bounty out on any beaver in the county for that reason.

And I can assure you, I would MUCH rather be reaching for what I thought was a cache and see a steel trap than be reaching for a cache and see a beaver coming at me from under a log. Any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

There are quite a few regs in place here in Iowa for trapping, too; but not being a trapper myself, I do respect them and leave their traps alone. Go ahead and come 'round here and mess with someone's traps--just see where it lands you. And judging from the number of trucks in the local taxidermist's parking lot when the furbuyer comes to town, I'm guessing there's a LARGE number of people around here that supplement their family's income by trapping for furs. And I DARE you to walk into that group and call them lazy, undereducated dipsticks. I can guarantee you some of the people in that group are some of the hardest working people I know, and some of them are some of the smartest men I know--both booksmarts and streetsmarts. But they participate in something you think is barbaric, so they must be lazy, stupid, backwoods hicks, right?

1.5k · January 27, 2006

*sigh*

Too bad we can't respect other people's hobbies without interjecting our personal opinions and looking down on them. Ever thought that maybe the traps serve a usefull purpose, like keeping a population in check? Around here, beavers do incredible damage to agricultural drainage systems--there's a $50 bounty out on any beaver in the county for that reason.

And I can assure you, I would MUCH rather be reaching for what I thought was a cache and see a steel trap than be reaching for a cache and see a beaver coming at me from under a log. Any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

There are quite a few regs in place here in Iowa for trapping, too; but not being a trapper myself, I do respect them and leave their traps alone. Go ahead and come 'round here and mess with someone's traps--just see where it lands you. And judging from the number of trucks in the local taxidermist's parking lot when the furbuyer comes to town, I'm guessing there's a LARGE number of people around here that supplement their family's income by trapping for furs. And I DARE you to walk into that group and call them lazy, undereducated dipsticks. I can guarantee you some of the people in that group are some of the hardest working people I know, and some of them are some of the smartest men I know--both booksmarts and streetsmarts. But they participate in something you think is barbaric, so they must be lazy, stupid, backwoods hicks, right?

I at no time have said it was a bad thing and it should not be done, I just stated that it is not a common practice from where I am from and all this was new to me. I have a lot of friends who hunt and I don't have anything against them doing it.

2.7k · January 27, 2006

As Clearpath noted, hunting and trapping are quite different pastimes.

I disagree with him though in that, if done conscientiously, trapping is a legitimate sport. Granted it is not as "humane" as hunting (assuming hunter makes a clean kill), but if the rules are followed and the trapper knows what he's doing, there is very little chance of trapping the wrong critter and the traps are checked frquently (at least every 24 hrs in Indiana) and the critters caught are dispatched quickly.

Killing is killing. Ultimately we kill to eat and we kill for clothing.

" Would that you could live on the fragerance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light. " - Kahlil Gibran, The Prophet

It would perhaps be a better way, but it is not our way.

I always thought fishing was the most barbaric sport :0

January 27, 2006

*sigh*

Too bad we can't respect other people's hobbies without interjecting our personal opinions and looking down on them. Ever thought that maybe the traps serve a usefull purpose, like keeping a population in check? Around here, beavers do incredible damage to agricultural drainage systems--there's a $50 bounty out on any beaver in the county for that reason.

And I can assure you, I would MUCH rather be reaching for what I thought was a cache and see a steel trap than be reaching for a cache and see a beaver coming at me from under a log. Any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

There are quite a few regs in place here in Iowa for trapping, too; but not being a trapper myself, I do respect them and leave their traps alone. Go ahead and come 'round here and mess with someone's traps--just see where it lands you. And judging from the number of trucks in the local taxidermist's parking lot when the furbuyer comes to town, I'm guessing there's a LARGE number of people around here that supplement their family's income by trapping for furs. And I DARE you to walk into that group and call them lazy, undereducated dipsticks. I can guarantee you some of the people in that group are some of the hardest working people I know, and some of them are some of the smartest men I know--both booksmarts and streetsmarts. But they participate in something you think is barbaric, so they must be lazy, stupid, backwoods hicks, right?

I at no time have said it was a bad thing and it should not be done, I just stated that it is not a common practice from where I am from and all this was new to me. I have a lot of friends who hunt and I don't have anything against them doing it.

sorry, geoholic, my post was not in reply to yours. Rather, I was directing my comments second poster here. I've got no beef with you.

Edit: speeeling

Edited January 27, 2006 by dkwolf

1.5k · January 27, 2006

I totally understand, the whole concept of traps in state parks was just new to me.

2.7k · January 27, 2006

Most people who use steel leg traps are too lazy to hunt any other way.

Actually, trapping is done to keep the fur intact. Bullet holes are unsightly in a coat.

Also not many hunters are willing to put forth the effort to hunt nuisance animals that aint good to eat. Would that be laziness on the hunter's part?

Traps are far less dangerous than guns and bows in populated areas. Hunting is impossible in the fringes of cities where trappers remove nuisance animals.

Two completely different things. Barely related at all.

Perhaps a smaller brush?

i agree that a less "cruel" form of trap could be used, but they are much more expensive, harder to hide well (which means animal rights persons would disurb them more often) nad present other problems like how to kill cleanly.

1.8k · January 27, 2006

But they participate in something you think is barbaric, so they must be lazy, stupid, backwoods hicks, right?

No ... just lazy and stupid. :lol:

5.7k · January 27, 2006

Yeah, I used to do some hunting in my younger days. Gave it up for Safeway, a much more reliable food source. :lol:

January 27, 2006

And I can assure you, I would MUCH rather be reaching for what I thought was a cache and see a steel trap than be reaching for a cache and see a beaver coming at me from under a log. Any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

:lol:

Beavers are North Americas largest rodent and hunt people just for the pleasure of it. Beware the beaver.

Leg/foot hold traps are banned in this part of Canada. Most think they are cruel as they hold the animal by whatever part gets caught and it may be days before the trapper dispatches them.

Most foothold snare no longer have those big sharp teeth that are shown in cartoons and are designed to hold with minimal damage. All but the largest should be of no concern for humans and even then a trapset should be visible enough not to put something soft in like your hand.

January 27, 2006

And please save the animal wacko carp ...

And the animal wacko crap ! :lol:

But, in all honesty, I kind of agree. I hate traps. Im afraid I would have to

snap it or make it ineffective, if I found one.

Just my .02 cents.

I would hate to see my dog or any other dog or child in one.

If they want to trap,

then keep it on their land and post signs.

What next, land mines ????? Fishing with dynamite ???

I used to hunt, but wised up (sorry hunters). But, if you want to hunt,

then do it bare handed, now that would be class !

Shooting from 100 yards is much easier than grabbing a buck and wrestling him

to the ground.

1.1k · January 27, 2006

Interesting topic. FWIW, here's what the state of Georgia has to say about trapping Trapping Regulations

January 27, 2006

A barbaric forum of entertainment (in todays world) that has yet to be eliminated by civilized humans. Maybe steel leg traps had a useful purpose in history but they simply are not needed in the 21st century. Steel leg traps are an extremely cruel form of animal capture and should be illegal.

And please save the animal wacko carp ... I've been an NRA member for over 10 years and have hunted or been involved with hunting almost my entire life. Steel leg traps are used by lazy under-educated dipsticks that don't mind being creul to animals.

When I hunt, I only harvest what my family can consume in a reasonable time period. When hunting, I believe the animal should be put down instantly or as quickly as possible. Most people who use steel leg traps are too lazy to hunt any other way.

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. -- Ben Franklin

As a fellow hunter, I would hope that you would support your brethren that take part in any form of hunting/trapping/etc, so long as they do it legally and ethically. The infighting betwixt sportsmen is a cancer. The bunny huggers and the earthfirsters have their differences of opinion, but are united in purpose against us.

The debated among hunters as to trapping/no trapping, .20-.30 cal for deer, compound/recurve, etc etc etc ad nauseum only goes to further divide us. And we can't afford that.

IMHO.

January 27, 2006

By the way, I agree with you on most counts. I am a life member of the NRA, hunt only what I will consume, and will not take a shot I deem unethical or has a high probability of not being a clean kill shot. I am not a trapper... but I will defend their right to trap so long as they do it ethically and within the bounds of the law.

Edited January 27, 2006 by Wandering Bears

January 27, 2006

I believe that these traps are cruel. Imagine being caught in one. Your foot/ankle/leg (if you're lucky) hurts, especially if you try to move, which you can't help but do in an effort to escape. You cannot get to the safety of your burrow/nest , so you feel exposed to every noise/scent around you. This makes you incredibly anxious. This non-stop anxiety will last for up to 24 hours if your trapper is conscientious, days if he is not. You are probably cold, hungry and thirsty. Again this could be up to 24 hours if your trapper is conscientious, days if he is not. If you have the will and the teeth for it, you may be lucky enough to chew off your own foot.

I ask you... is trapping a necessity in this day and age?

Just my two cents.

I cache with a small dog, who is very curious. We keep her on an extended leash, but after reading this thread, I'm concerned about her getting caught. Are trappers required to post any signs as a warning? Trappers (whether I like it or not) may have the right to trap according to local laws, but what about my rights to walk my dog in safety? :lol:

January 27, 2006

But, in all honesty, I kind of agree. I hate traps. Im afraid I would have to
snap it or make it ineffective, if I found one.

Just my .02 cents.

Go ahead. It'll cost you a LOT more than 2 cents. Interfering with someone's legal right to hunt, fish, or trap is a CRIME--doesn't matter what your feelings, opinions, or whathaveyou on the subject are.

The odds of your dog getting caught in a trap are *not* very high. In fact, I wouldn't even worry about it. Your dog is much more likely to get sprayed by a skunk or in a fight with a raccoon. Traps aren't likely going to be set on, or even near, public trails. But, if your concerned about it, learn how to release the traps in the unlikely event that a pet gets caught in one-if done correctly, it's easy, if done incorrectly, it's tough as heck.

January 27, 2006

I believe that these traps are cruel. Imagine being caught in one. Your foot/ankle/leg (if you're lucky) hurts, especially if you try to move, which you can't help but do in an effort to escape. You cannot get to the safety of your burrow/nest , so you feel exposed to every noise/scent around you. This makes you incredibly anxious. This non-stop anxiety will last for up to 24 hours if your trapper is conscientious, days if he is not. You are probably cold, hungry and thirsty. Again this could be up to 24 hours if your trapper is conscientious, days if he is not. If you have the will and the teeth for it, you may be lucky enough to chew off your own foot.
I ask you... is trapping a necessity in this day and age?

Just my two cents.

I cache with a small dog, who is very curious. We keep her on an extended leash, but after reading this thread, I'm concerned about her getting caught. Are trappers required to post any signs as a warning? Trappers (whether I like it or not) may have the right to trap according to local laws, but what about my rights to walk my dog in safety?

Anthropomorphism is a dangerous thing.

January 27, 2006

I'll just inject a fact or two to help clear up some common misconceptions.

All traps today have smooth, rounded jaws. All of them.

They're called foot-hold traps because they are specifically sized to NOT reach up as far as the leg bones. Most are about three inches across, so are not a threat to any adult foot. If one were stick a hand in one, it would smart like heck, but that's about all.

There are only two types of traps in use today: foot hold and killers. Foot hold traps allow the trapper to release, uninjured, an undesired animal. They are used in any location where a pet or other non-nuisance animal might wander. Conibear (killer) traps are large enough and powerful enough to instantly kill most small animals. They are used primarily in underwater sets for beaver - where it is extremely unlikely to catch a pet.

Foot-hold traps are placed in such a way that a predatory animal has to investigate an odor source and step in a protected, small spot. They aren't scattered willy-nilly in the open. Most are semi-buried under a layer of duff or leaves.

Trappers must be specifically licensed, pass training and legal tests, and inspect traps at specified intervals - usually daily. All traps must be tagged with the owner's name and/or license number.

When an animal is trapped, the trapper will either release it unharmed or dispatch it humanely with a head shot at very close range.

Cachers have absolutely no need to fear such traps, unless you habitually poke your fingers into hidden spots.

3k · January 27, 2006

I'm fairly familiar with leg hold traps although I don't use them myself. On the off chance that some day you may encounter one while caching you should familiarize yourself with how to remove/disable it without further injury to your self. Most have a simple spring system that is very easy to remove even after being caught in it. The worst possible thing to do would be to try and pull it off by force.

There are really only about 3 main leg hold trap types so check them out and never forget to cache with a pal if you're going into any wilderness and bring your first aid. Most traps only use a few pounds of pressure and can be opened easily if you educate yourself on how to do it.

More deadly dangerous that a foot hold trap is a snare line and they are much much harder to detect and can kill your cache hound in as little as a minute. Remember to carry a pair of wire snips if you go out with your pet. A quick snip can save your pet from various hazards. As noted in other forums there are often old pieces of barbwire and rusting fence that are left in the woods or even dumped there from the less considerate.

As always, educate yourself before you go out for a safe experience.

3.2k · January 27, 2006

You can't own a firearm without a permit, but you can place potentially deadly traps in parks???!?!

What a state.

I think calling a trap deadly ( I assume you mean to humans ) is a bit of an exaggeration. Of course one way to avoid any potential problem is to bring your own snacks and keep your fingers off the bait.

9.4k · January 27, 2006

Most trappers are decent, conscientious people and would never intentionally or knowingly place one where it would endanger anyone.

Amen!

I would say that most people taking part in any activity are this way. Unfortunately, they aren't the ones that make good news stories. It's always the small percentage of people that cause problems that you see on TV or in the paper.

January 27, 2006

As a long-suffering wife of a lifetime hunter, I have to agree with Wandering Bears and Clearpath. We live in California, where one is licensed and regulated into the ground, and I KNOW that hubby has come home with nothing (and trust me, we pay dearly for the right to hunt - even though the money may or may not actually support the DFG) because the only shot he could take would/could have wounded the animal and not killed. He would rather NOT take a shot that would allow a wounded animal to disappear and be wasted. I attribute his reverence for the animals he hunts to his (small, but still there) little bit of Potawatomie ancestry. He just plain old likes the taste of deer/dove. He never hunts for anything other than what we will actually eat. Yes, it is REALLY expensive, and I have told him numerous times, "I can buy a whole bunch of beef for what this trip cost!"

I don't think we will have leg traps here in Cal - all of our rodents/coyotes/lion and bears (Oh MY!) are just to cute and cuddly to kill. But we (as Californians - not ME!) sure can BP&M about the damage they do when come around our million-dollar mountain-fringe homes!

January 27, 2006

I would say that most people taking part in any activity are this way. Unfortunately, they aren't the ones that make good news stories. It's always the small percentage of people that cause problems that you see on TV or in the paper

You are SO right!

January 27, 2006

I believe that these traps are cruel. Imagine being caught in one. Your foot/ankle/leg (if you're lucky) hurts, especially if you try to move, which you can't help but do in an effort to escape. You cannot get to the safety of your burrow/nest , so you feel exposed to every noise/scent around you. This makes you incredibly anxious. This non-stop anxiety will last for up to 24 hours if your trapper is conscientious, days if he is not. You are probably cold, hungry and thirsty. Again this could be up to 24 hours if your trapper is conscientious, days if he is not. If you have the will and the teeth for it, you may be lucky enough to chew off your own foot.
I ask you... is trapping a necessity in this day and age?

Just my two cents.

I cache with a small dog, who is very curious. We keep her on an extended leash, but after reading this thread, I'm concerned about her getting caught. Are trappers required to post any signs as a warning? Trappers (whether I like it or not) may have the right to trap according to local laws, but what about my rights to walk my dog in safety?

Anthropomorphism is a dangerous thing.

I don't believe that anything I said was anthropomorphic. Animals are very capable of feeling pain, hunger, thirst and anxiety.

A lack of empathy is a very dangerous thing though!

Foot-hold traps are placed in such a way that a predatory animal has to investigate an odor source and step in a protected, small spot. They aren't scattered willy-nilly in the open. Most are semi-buried under a layer of duff or leaves.

Cachers have absolutely no need to fear such traps, unless you habitually poke your fingers into hidden spots.

Ummm.... what about dogs that investigate odor sources, and poke their snoots in hidden spots?

More deadly dangerous that a foot hold trap is a snare line and they are much much harder to detect and can kill your cache hound in as little as a minute. Remember to carry a pair of wire snips if you go out with your pet. A quick snip can save your pet from various hazards. As noted in other forums there are often old pieces of barbwire and rusting fence that are left in the woods or even dumped there from the less considerate.
As always, educate yourself before you go out for a safe experience.

Thanks for the info Fox-and-the-hound, I'll definately be carrying wire snips from now on!

My Partner knows a guy at work who traps, (we've agreed to disagree :mad: ) I'll ask her to ask him if he can show us how to safely release these traps if ever an emergency pops up.

January 27, 2006

I don't believe that anything I said was anthropomorphic. Animals are very capable of feeling pain, hunger, thirst and anxiety.

Well, when was the last time an animal told you it was feeling anxious? How else would you know?

With all due respect, you can believe that animals can feel anything at all, but it is biologically impossible to know what an animal thinks or feels...if they even do! The best science can do is describe their responses to a particular stimulus. And putting human characteristics on those responses is improper to truly understanding animal behavoir.

For example: It is widly thought that when your dog jumps up on you and licks your face when you come home it is "happy" to see you. In researching dog evolution, that exact same behavoir has been seen in wild dogs from Africa. They exhibit the same behavoir when others in the pack have returned from the hunt. It is now widly believe that the excited jumping and licking of the face causes the dogs who just hunted to regurgitate some of their recently consumed food for the others who remained behind, especially the pups, to eat. Gross huh?

For all of your worries about traps and your dog. You have 100 times more to fear about your dogs safety while it is riding in your car to and from caches with you than you do with traps.

January 27, 2006

Maybe steel leg traps had a useful purpose in history but they simply are not needed in the 21st century. Steel leg traps are an extremely cruel form of animal capture and should be illegal.

And please save the animal wacko carp ... I've been an NRA member for over 10 years and have hunted or been involved with hunting almost my entire life. Steel leg traps are used by lazy under-educated dipsticks that don't mind being creul to animals.

And to that I would say that you must think the whole world, even the whole United States is the same as YOUR little space on Earth. I live in an area where subsistance hunting is the norm. Most of the people I serve do not have stores where they can just pick out which ever form of beef, chicken, or pork they want. Their store is for sugar, flour, coffee and other staples. Heck, the last store I went to in a village didn't even have any type of cold medicine. Men spend all their time hunting, running trap lines, or in the summer, they go to fish camps along the river to get enough fish to dry and last their family through very extreme winters. It got to -47 F here last night. That's BELOW zero. So how lazy and undereducated do you claim these people are now? Could YOU survive these conditions? I think it's highly unlikely. Animals are made to be eaten or their fur to be sold to buy families what they need to survive or to keep warm enough to survive. I realize it may be hard to imagine this type of life still existing in the United States, but it does.

These are pictures of a store from one of my villages.

And one from a different village.

Edited January 27, 2006 by 1stimestar

January 27, 2006

While I personally wouldn't do it (I also can't handle actually shooting something like hunting hubby does) I think it is really neat that you have such a remote lifestyle. Big cities have wildlife, and I think it is more scary! I would like to think that I could adapt quite well to something like that if I were put in that kind of environment. I won't kill the animal, but I sure help skin and process it.

I think there was something a while back as flak for a Girl Scout troop who made a badge of their own (Troop and council have "Our Own" badges they can make) pertaining to the lifestyle they have, and it invloved trapping. If it is a way of life (heritage) and necessity, I think it is wonderful to keep that "tradition" going.

January 27, 2006

I don't believe that anything I said was anthropomorphic. Animals are very capable of feeling pain, hunger, thirst and anxiety.

Well, when was the last time an animal told you it was feeling anxious? How else would you know?

With all due respect, you can believe that animals can feel anything at all, but it is biologically impossible to know what an animal thinks or feels...if they even do! The best science can do is describe their responses to a particular stimulus. And putting human characteristics on those responses is improper to truly understanding animal behavoir.

For example: It is widly thought that when your dog jumps up on you and licks your face when you come home it is "happy" to see you. In researching dog evolution, that exact same behavoir has been seen in wild dogs from Africa. They exhibit the same behavoir when others in the pack have returned from the hunt. It is now widly believe that the excited jumping and licking of the face causes the dogs who just hunted to regurgitate some of their recently consumed food for the others who remained behind, especially the pups, to eat. Gross huh?

For all of your worries about traps and your dog. You have 100 times more to fear about your dogs safety while it is riding in your car to and from caches with you than you do with traps.

I have studied animal behavior, and anyone who works with animals; vetrinarians, zookeepers and people who study them in the field can tell you, animals are quite capable of feeling pain, hunger, thirst and anxiety and more.

If an animal is unable to feel pain, it would be unable to avoid and protect itself from dangerous situations. Hunger and thirst are basic primary drives of self preservation to prevent starvation and dehydration. They have evolved as unpleasant motivators to induce the behaviors of eating and drinking.

Animals are able to communicate non verbally. Anxiety can be seen in behaviors such as tense body posture, staring, licking of the lips, etc. People who work with animals are very aware of these cues and are able to understand what an animal may be feeling by reading body posture, and behavior. It is rather presumtious to think that only humans, who can communicate verbally, are the only beings on earth able to feel.

January 27, 2006

I think it is really neat that you have such a remote lifestyle. Big cities have wildlife, and I think it is more scary!

I actually live in Fairbanks, population 40,000. My job takes me to remote bush villages though. It's awesome.

January 27, 2006

My hometown is only 10,000. The place I was born is NOW at 40, 000. The nearest crime-ridden, Walmart invaded, gang-centered city is 400,000. Of course I love that city, used to live in it. But I think you understand my point.

There is something rewarding about being self-sufficient in the most basic of needs. You should have seen my quite smug joy at being able to remove (without flooding the house!) an old kitchen faucet and replace it with a really neat sleek new one. Without hubby's help. Without making a mess. WITH my 5 year old's help.

I can't imagine doing a "Ted or Alive" kind of thing, catching and killing my own meat. And yet I remember my grandmother (5' tall lady) all nonchalont about wringing the chicken's neck. (eww! ) But for some reason I admire that ability.

January 27, 2006

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. -- Ben Franklin

.

I believe the quote is we must Stand together.

Now on to the topic:

Beavers, squirrels, little fluffy bunnies, Oh no we can't catch them in traps or snares. that is to cruel and would be wrong.

Mice, rats, eeww better put out poison, or go by a rat trap that breaks their back, or a nice glue trap so they get stuck and could suffocate. Yea that's fine.

It is all a matter of perspective

Hitting a deer with a car? Is that better? The North Carolina number showed that 30% of all deer killed in the state were from vehicle accidents, many of them the deer was found several hundred yards away with broken legs and still alive. They had to be dispatched after being found sometimes an hour or more later. Do we ban cars since they are a cruel way to kill an animal?

NOOO cars should not be banned, I'm just saying that you should not just condemn an activity before you have seen it from all points of view

My personal opinion is that I will not set traps.

kay nuff said

January 27, 2006

I enjoyed seeing the pictures of your store. Thanks!

January 27, 2006

I enjoyed seeing the pictures of your store. Thanks!

Sorry, for clarification...they are not "my" stores. I call them "my" villages because these are the villages I serve. I work for the rural dept. of Big Brothers Big Sisters here in Alaska so my job is to set up the program and support the matches that we make in the villages we serve. Here, in some order are some pages/pictures of my work.

http://www.cloud9doula.com/allakaket.htm

Not a village but the only state capitol you can't access by road. You must fly in or come by plane. On this trip our flight out was cancelled due to that pesky erupting volcano, St. Augustine.

http://www.cloud9doula.com/Juneau06.htm

My blog from my most recent village with story and link to the pictures from it.

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-QmIfJpw2fql...GIOLhaTAM-?p=15

January 27, 2006

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. -- Ben Franklin

.

I believe the quote is we must Stand together.

I believe you are mistaken...

... but the idea is the same, regardless.

(BTW, I always try to quote accurately)

2.1k · January 27, 2006

As an aside, I believe the moderators should edit the title of this topic to:

"Caution! Heads Down!"

Otherwise, you might actually cause the problem you were trying to warn against in the first place.

January 27, 2006

It is rather presumtious to think that only humans, who can communicate verbally, are the only beings on earth able to feel.

It is exactly that exclusive ability (the ability to reason and communicate verbally) which make humans think that animals are experiencing the same emotions and feeling as humans. You assume because you feel anxious, fear, etc... then animals must. That assumption is totally emotion based and not factual. You will not find ANYTHING in SCIENTIFIC research that says so.

I would expect a vetenarian or zookeeper to think as you do since they only deal with animals taken from their natural environment and forced to adjust to a human world (some would even call that cruel). But a trained biologist and researcher, such as myself, who makes it a career to study animal populations and behavoirs in their natural environment would not agree with you.

You may have the last word since we are off topic.

Salvelinus

January 27, 2006

If you want to see a case study in misappropriated feelings for animals, rent "Grizzly Man".

Timothy Treadwell made that mistake with Grizzly bears.

He is now poop.

January 27, 2006

When I hunt, I only harvest what my family can consume in a reasonable time period. When hunting, I believe the animal should be put down instantly or as quickly as possible. Most people who use steel leg traps are too lazy to hunt any other way.

I agree...except on your assumption that people are trapping for meat. I'm sure some do, but in fact animals are mostly trapped for their fur. Bullet holes and arrowhead holes in the hides will bring down its price. Besides, nobody wants to eat most of the animals (Beaver, Mink, Muskrat and Fox) targeted by trappers.

So it may not be fair to say that a trapper is a "lazy hunter"

January 27, 2006

If you want to see a case study in misappropriated feelings for animals, rent "Grizzly Man".

Timothy Treadwell made that mistake with Grizzly bears.

He is now poop.

Wasn't he the photographer in Alaska who assumed two juvenile grizzlies were just happily playing just before they turned on him?

Salvelinus

2.7k · January 27, 2006

I'll just inject a fact or two to help clear up some common misconceptions.

All traps today have smooth, rounded jaws. All of them.

They're called foot-hold traps because they are specifically sized to NOT reach up as far as the leg bones. Most are about three inches across, so are not a threat to any adult foot. If one were stick a hand in one, it would smart like heck, but that's about all.

There are only two types of traps in use today: foot hold and killers. Foot hold traps allow the trapper to release, uninjured, an undesired animal. They are used in any location where a pet or other non-nuisance animal might wander. Conibear (killer) traps are large enough and powerful enough to instantly kill most small animals. They are used primarily in underwater sets for beaver - where it is extremely unlikely to catch a pet.

Foot-hold traps are placed in such a way that a predatory animal has to investigate an odor source and step in a protected, small spot. They aren't scattered willy-nilly in the open. Most are semi-buried under a layer of duff or leaves.

Trappers must be specifically licensed, pass training and legal tests, and inspect traps at specified intervals - usually daily. All traps must be tagged with the owner's name and/or license number.

When an animal is trapped, the trapper will either release it unharmed or dispatch it humanely with a head shot at very close range.

Cachers have absolutely no need to fear such traps, unless you habitually poke your fingers into hidden spots.

An excellent post, but the requirement for training and labelling is not universal.

Indiana does not require any of the above, except for a license, which I assume can be purchased at the local bait shop, and daily checking.

I suggested to a trapper i encountered that it might be nice to tag and post flags and his response was that that would make the traps more visible to the opponents of trapping who don't mind breaking the law for thier cause celebre.

5.7k · January 27, 2006

I think that placing animal traps in state parks is possibly an irresponsible public policy. I'd like to know more about this. Can you supply the names of a couple of New York State Parks that promote/allow this practice? Thank you. <_< I scrolled the thread and didn't see any, if I missed them just say so.

Caution ! Heads Up !

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