Another Newbie Question

[Groveland]

Okay, I've read the FAQ and I'm looking for some clarification. LC2014 is a church spire. The documented history notes that the spire on the church was torn down in 1955. I know the entire church was torn down in the last 10 years and it is now a parking lot. Why hasn't anyone read the description of the bench mark and logged it as "destroyed?"

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Welcome to benchmark hunting! and it is NOT a dumb question at all...

 

This report was added by the CGS in 1959...

 

1/1/1959 by CGS (GOOD)

RECOVERY NOTE BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1959 (RLS) ACCORDING TO MR. GEORGE DEPPERT, CHAIRMAN OF THE BUILDING COMMITTEE, THE SPIRE ON THE OLD CHURCH WAS TORN DOWN IN 1955. A NEW CHURCH WAS ERECTED AT A NEARBY LOCATION.

 

Now this does not mean that it should have had a (GOOD) listed - it should have been a Note or something other than (GOOD). It tends to grate on our nerves when we see this. In good faith though and how the NGS wants their reports - a 'destroyed' cannot be logged unless they have a video of the actual spire being torn down.

 

What the CGS had was a second hand report from a Mr. Deppert, and did not go to the site at all, no positive proof of it being gone. The above report is still good enough for others to know that it is probably gone, you could go there and then log a report yourself, testifying to it really being gone, although you could still not claim it destroyed by the NGS criteria.

 

We have found on this site even - that to just log a note saying it is probably destroyed or not found is a lot better than to log a destroyed and then have someone else go and find the thin

 

g....embarrassing to be sure.

 

I hope this clarified things a little. If not, Z 15 or Kewaneh or one of our other learned friends in this forum will be able to help us out.

 

Happy Hunting

 

Shirley~

Edited January 26, 2006 by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

[Groveland]

No, I wouldn't want to embarass myself and log something as "destroyed" and then have it found. However, in this case, I could take a picture of the parking lot and show that the entire building is no longer standing.

 

I understand that unless I saw it actually being destroyed I would not be a primary source, but I can assure you it is destroyed. I would think it would be misleading to even log it as "not found" because it will never be found.

 

Thanks for your advice. Perhaps you're right...the best way to log it would be with a note to indicate the building is no longer standing and the benchmark is "likely" destroyed.

 

Any other thoughts from the seasoned hunters?

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Groveland,

 

Not to make the other oldfart feel bad, but.....

 

You can send pictures to Deb at the NGS and explain to her about the church and spire. If she agrees with you, she will change it's status to destroyed.

 

For here at GC, if you are positive it is gone, feel free to log it as destroyed.

 

John

Edited January 26, 2006 by 2oldfarts (the rockhounders)

[mloser]

Intersection stations such as towers and church spires are much easier to get marked as destroyed because it is easy to see if they exist or not. I typically send a pic of the area where the station would be, and another with my GPSr set in GOTO mode pointing at the empty spot. I don't think Deb has denied one as being destroyed yet.

[+Klemmer]

Right, I have done the same as mloser several times, and Deb seems fine with that. The picture of the GPSr pointing ahead to 10 feet of thin air is a good idea. Haven't done that yet.... Pictures or where it was are usually fine. Just think about what proof YOU would need to be absolutely sure it was gone.

 

Now - declaring a benchmark DISC as destroyed for NGS purposes is another matter. If you don't have the disc in hand, it is practically impossible, as it should be.

Edited January 26, 2006 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

[Bill93]

I have stopped trying to get intersection stations marked destroyed in most cases where there was any research. I now prefer to log them to NGS as "Not Found" with the facts I observed, such as "newer retail building at coordinates, new church of same name constructed 1954 one block south" or whatever I've figured out, and conclude with "station presumed destroyed". That leaves a permanent record of what you saw. That wil let anyone in the future check up on the accuracy of your report. There are times when this offers the opportunity to record history that may be useful to people researching other stations in the area.

 

If you convince her that it is destroyed, all your research gets flushed or filed out of sight, and summarized on the data sheet as "Destroyed. Information submitted by John Doe".

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Actually I don't quite agree with Bill93.

 

I agree with him that a well described "Not Found, presumed destroyed" log is the right thing to do, but I still pursue a "Destroyed" with Deb after I make my log. That way, if it is accepted as "Destroyed", my log is in there (as the last log, probably). Remember you can still see the datasheets for Destroyed stations.

 

I just sent to Deb 2 requests to have stations "UNdestroyed" or whatever you might call that process. One is a Tidal Bench Mark and one a Triangulation station. Both seem to be where they should be and appear to be in good undisturbed condition. I know the NGS worries about geodetic control and they may not want to revisit the status of these stations. We'll see what comes back from Deb.

 

For my own lists (I'm currently working to complete New York, New York county, aka Manhattan) I have listed all the Destroyed datasheets from the NGS along with everything else. I check those too, hence the two above stations.

 

So check it and recheck it and then call it what you think it should be. Just don't rush. I logged a couple of Not Founds with the NGS last month and I've now gone back and I think I might Find them after all. If so, I will (quite embarassed) log them again as Found.

 

Advice: log your Founds. Wait for a while and double and triple check your Not Founds and be very sure on your Destroyeds.

 

Pb

Edited January 27, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[Difficult Run]

I suppose if you researched and found a local newspaper article describing the destruction of the church building (and spire), you could submit it to Deb. Normally, those types of articles have pretty good photos.

 

The question is:

Would the NGS accept an old newspaper article as proof of destruction?

 

Hmmm....

~ Mitch ~

 

Edited for correct spelling.

Edited January 27, 2006 by Difficult Run

[+Klemmer]

There was no problem for Deb to record as destroyed DY0566 based on a pic grabbed off the internet, a link to a newspaper story (now dead, but worked at the time), and my eyeballs / camera on the "thin air" across the freeway from my office. I think a newpaper story is a good source, at least if backed up by something else (e.g. your "thin air" picture).

[+Harry Dolphin]

Not sure if Deb is back yet.

Usually, with intersection stations, you can be fairly sure if it's been destroyed. I'm working on north Hudson County, New Jersey. The river front was very industrial in the 30's. Now, it's mostly condos and strip malls. The fatories are mostly gone. This one seems fairly obviously destroyed: KU3904. The building stills tands. Even the steel lattice structure that supported the water tower is still there. The water tank is obviously long gone. With Deb out, NGS has not marked this one destroyed.

On the other fin, this one KU1652, across the street, cannot be found. The buildings and water tower are long gone. The disk might be there somewhere, but I very much doubt it. DNF.

When I can supply printed proof that the station has been destroyed, I will send it along. But some things are obvious. And, yes, I do like to get obviously destroyed intersection stations listed as destroyed.

[+seventhings]

I have gotten Deb at NGS to reclassify about 20 intersection as "DESTROYED" with short e-mails and a couple of photos. More often, however, I just submit an NGS recovery report as "Not Found" with comments such as "The is no water tank standing at the described location or at the location of the published coordinates."

 

Will

[mloser]

I am not sure intersection stations are as important as they once were. The need to triangulate was what usually caused them to be used and nobody triangulates any more now that GPS seems to have taken over. Here is an email conversation I had with Deb a while back, short but sweet:

 

Me: Does anyone use intersection stations anymore?

Deb: I'll take the info for historical purposes.

 

Dave Doyle told me at our first eastern regional benchmark meeting that those of us who were climbing mountains looking for the old, hard to reach tri-stations were wasting our time, NGS-wise. Those stations are simply not as important as they once were. Nobody is out building Bilby towers over them and triangulating across country any more.

[+PFF]

mloser wrote:

Dave Doyle told me at our first eastern regional benchmark meeting that those of us who were climbing mountains looking for the old, hard to reach tri-stations were wasting our time, NGS-wise. Those stations are simply not as important as they once were. Nobody is out building Bilby towers over them and triangulating across country any more.

 

Gee! NOW they tell us! Spoo, you can retire the bushwacking knife and hat.

 

Oh, well. At least it was good exercise!

 

-Paul-

 

P.S. On the destruction of the church spire......I'm certain that the church office has photos of the old building, along with other documentation. You probably could get someone to write a brief letter to certify that the spire has been removed. That should suffice. However, unless continued logging of a destroyed intersection point is a problem, it may not be worth the time and effort to get it removed from the data base.

[kc2ixe]

Intersection stations such as towers and church spires are much easier to get marked as destroyed because it is easy to see if they exist or not. I typically send a pic of the area where the station would be, and another with my GPSr set in GOTO mode pointing at the empty spot. I don't think Deb has denied one as being destroyed yet.

Yeah - intersection stations are fairly easy to get destroyed - I probably have 20-30 destroyed to my name, partly because I looked through all the marks in my area, and dug up ones that had OLD reports of "County Survey office has destroyed this station" type reports, partly because I know my local history, and know where to go to look at stations I know are gone. I went around doing those first, because they are easy

 

I have one right now that I know is gone, but being it's NOT an intersection station, it's going to be hard to destroy - the building the disk was on is gone - I know where it used to be, and it was taken down - but how can I PROVE that I found the old location of this small brick building, when the location is scaled. I remember being facinated by the disk on this building when I was a kid. Went to recover it - building was gone

[+GeckoGeek]

I have one right now that I know is gone, but being it's NOT an intersection station, it's going to be hard to destroy - the building the disk was on is gone

Not all that hard. Just need to document the change in buildings. NGS isn't that unreasonable. My only concern is to show that it was mounted to the building itself and not the ground where it might have survived.

[+Harry Dolphin]

We offer the best advice that we can. Up to NGS to decide how valid it is.

Here's a brand new bridge, that had a chiseled triangle in 1913, which changed to a disk in 1933. Neither are there anymore. Oh, well. No comments from Deb. Guess she's still off. KV3915.

[kc2ixe]

I have one right now that I know is gone, but being it's NOT an intersection station, it's going to be hard to destroy - the building the disk was on is gone

Not all that hard. Just need to document the change in buildings. NGS isn't that unreasonable. My only concern is to show that it was mounted to the building itself and not the ground where it might have survived.

I know they aren't unreasonable - the trick is to document well enough that _I_ would be satified if I didn't know the area - it was a small transformer "shead" - maybe 6x9x8ft tall, and it's gone now - I'm trying to find the exact spot - it was along this one streach of road, and there are NO buildings there now - what happened is they rebuilt that section of highway, including the lighting system, so they took the building down.

 

It's one of those "I know it, but can't prove it well enough - YET, on paper, that I would approve it if I didn't know the area"

 

It's a project for a nice walk in the spring