Caches In Ireland

[Alan White]

Please could an Irish cacher (or, indeed, anyone else who feels qualified) advise on this?

 

First off, let me say that I do not want the thread to develop into a discussion of what used to be called "The Irish Question". I'm not interested in politics, only caches.

 

My PQs select only caches in the United Kingdom. This has usually provided me with caches in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. One of the disadvantages of PQs is that they don't tell you when a cache is archived, so I do this manually by filtering in GSAK for caches which haven't been updated recently. This whole process works just fine.

 

Recently, in doing the usual archiving, I've noticed a couple of caches which haven't been updated but aren't archived. The reason why they're not being updated is because their cache pages say they're in Ireland. They're actually in Northern Ireland, and their cache pages must have been in United Kingdom in order for them to have previously been returned in my PQs.

 

So the cache owners must have changed the country. No problem there, but it puzzles me that most Northern Ireland caches are said to be in the UK, but GCRDH6 and GCRT48 are in Ireland.

 

For my part, as it's unlikely I'll be caching in Ireland anytime soon then it makes little difference to me, except insofar as I want to keep the data up to date. As a fan of clean data, it would be nice if caches appeared in their correct countries (including England, Scotland and Wales), but that's a bit beyond the scope of this discussion.

 

So the question is: do the Irish cachers have a "policy" on what country they describe their caches as being in? Or don't you mind? In proximity searches it won't matter, but PQs based on country will return incomplete data unless both UK and Ireland are chosen.

[+wildlifewriter]

So the question is: do the Irish cachers have a "policy" on what country they describe their caches as being in? Or don't you mind? In proximity searches it won't matter, but PQs based on country will return incomplete data unless both UK and Ireland are chosen.

There's no "policy" on this, because the choice of country is just a selection from a drop-down list on the submission page. Until very recently, this cache which is just south of Dublin, was marked as "Germany". (Because it was placed by a German cacher, presumably)

 

My own 16 caches in Northern Ireland are all listed as "Ireland", for a very good reason - the grid location format. If it was listed as "UK", the format would be shown as British Grid, which is misleading and incorrect.

 

The whole island of Ireland uses one single OS grid for mapping. (This factor is no longer relevant, since GC.com have now changed it to UTM co-ordinates without telling anybody.)

 

Technical considerations aside, the choice of country still largely depends on an individual's archaic tribal loyalties and superstitions. (As does everything else, here.)

 

Keeping politics out of Geocaching in Ireland has been a problem in the past, and no doubt it will be a problem for the foreseeable future.

 

-Wlw.

Edited January 25, 2006 by wildlifewriter

[+purple_pineapple]

i noticed something similar a week or so ago - i seemed to have gained some irish caches in my database - i didn't study them to see if they were ROI or NI, but did wonder if it was GC:UK updating the state and country data differently. I got round the problem by deciding that although I was unlikely to be caching there in the near future, it wouldn't do any harm to run a weekely PQ for Ireland, IoM, the Channel Islands (where I will be caching soon) and so on. I can get the whole lot in one PQ, thanks to the power of the control key!

 

Dave

[Alan White]

Thanks. Interesting points, and not just in relation to Ireland.

 

What this really says is that we can place no reliance on the country a cache claims to be in, and therefore PQs based on country are always going to be suspect.

 

I feel a post in the other forum coming on, just as soon as I work out how to avoid the "why do you want so many caches" question.

[Alan White]

it wouldn't do any harm to run a weekely PQ for Ireland, IoM, the Channel Islands

I was coming to the same conclusion. I recall someone saying they included all the other countries, presumably for similar reasons.

 

Of course, doing this still wouldn't pick up wlw's example of a Dublin cache being in Germany.

[+wildlifewriter]

I was coming to the same conclusion. I recall someone saying they included all the other countries, presumably for similar reasons.

 

Of course, doing this still wouldn't pick up wlw's example of a Dublin cache being in Germany. 

No, but there's a ridiculously easy solution to all this: ignore "countries" completely.

 

A query with these parameters...

 

*Any Type, *Any Container, *Is active, *From origin - By coordinates: N54º42.749 W005º16.594 - Radius of: 600 KM

 

... will pick up every active cache in the British Isles (except Shetland) in a single PQ.

 

-Wlw

[EDIT: corrected coordinates.)

Edited January 25, 2006 by wildlifewriter

[Alan White]

I was coming to the same conclusion. I recall someone saying they included all the other countries, presumably for similar reasons.

 

Of course, doing this still wouldn't pick up wlw's example of a Dublin cache being in Germany. 

No, but there's a ridiculously easy solution to all this: ignore "countries" completely.

 

A query with these parameters...

 

*Any Type, *Any Container, *Is active, *From origin - By coordinates: N54º32.749 W005º16.594 - Radius of: 600 KM

 

... will pick up every active cache in the British Isles (except Shetland) in a single PQ.

 

-Wlw

I thought there's a 100mile radius restriction on PQs?

[Alan White]

I thought there's a 100mile radius restriction on PQs?

[Answering own question]

 

The limit is 750km.

[+Alibags]

That's interesting. I suspect however that a good many caches in Eire, NI, Belgium, NL, etc etc are within 600Km of my home location.

[+walkergeoff and wife]

That's interesting. I suspect however that a good many caches in Eire, NI, Belgium, NL, etc etc are within 600Km of my home location.

I suspect the co-ords given above are for the centre of England/UK?

[+Alibags]

54 degrees North is further than the centre of the UK, I suspect it's Wildlifewriter land

 

600 clicks from the centre of the UK would still include Amsterdam!! (etc)

[+sTeamTraen]

The main reason why a country is wrong is usually that the person placing it comes from another country, and doesn't pay attention when filling in the cache report.

 

I have argued in another forum that there is no need for country information. In most cases borders can be crossed trivially, and in areas where they can't (try, say, a 100km radius around Jerusalem), easy access to geocaches is unlikely to be most peoples' priorities. I own one cache which is in Germany but requires you to visit one or two caches in France to find it; and the approach to Dianabild takes you along a track where for about 1 kilometre you literally have one foot in France and one in Germany.

 

That said, if the field is going to be there, it should be filled in correctly (in other words: my internationalist ambitions don't totally exclude my authoritarian tendencies ). I doubt if even the most fervent Irish nationalist would dispute the fact that the 6 counties are currently an administrative part of the UK, regardless of whether they think they should be.

[Alan White]

I suspect it's Wildlifewriter land 

 

600 clicks from the centre of the UK would still include Amsterdam!! (etc) 

Not unless he's amphibian. That location is in the Irish Sea off the Mull of Galloway, about 43km SW of Stranraer.

 

It's carefully chosen so that the resulting arc passes through the Straits of Dover, and because the English Channel has a curve in it the arc neatly misses (most of) mainland Europe (Cherbourg might be just inside - hard to say).

 

Very clever idea, really, which I'm still exploring.

[+wildlifewriter]

(Cherbourg might be just inside - hard to say).

 

I'm afraid there was a typo in my original waypoint (now corrected.)

 

Should have been: N54º42.749 W005º16.594

 

Apologies for any confusion caused to cachers in Cherbourg, even though they're only French.

 

-Wlw

Edited January 25, 2006 by wildlifewriter

[+wildlifewriter]

There IS a "Wlwpoint" which will pick up caches on Shetland as well..

 

N55º 36.700 W004º 48.780 Radius: 650 KM

 

-Wlw

[Alan White]

There IS a "Wlwpoint" which will pick up caches on Shetland as well..

 

N55º 36.700 W004º 48.780 Radius: 650 KM

 

-Wlw

Great idea. Thanks for that.

[+dino-irl]

I doubt if even the most fervent Irish nationalist would dispute the fact that the 6 counties are currently an administrative part of the UK, regardless of whether they think they should be.

If the option was between Republic of Ireland and United Kingdom then the choice might be more obvious. However, Ireland is the island of Ireland, Northern and Republic. The use of the word Ireland is incorrect to begin with.

 

I personally think the whole country thing should be done away with altogether. Whay do we need to know the country when we have the coordinates?

[+wildlifewriter]

(etc) The use of the word Ireland is incorrect to begin with.

You should know better, NH.

 

The name* of the State is "Ireland ("Eire") - It is not "The Republic of Ireland" or the "Irish Free State" or anything else.

 

The use of the name entirely and unexceptionably correct.

 

-Wlw.

 

* Cited: The Constitution of Ireland (Bunreacht Na hÉireann) 1937, Article 4.

[+*bingoboy*]

The Bunreacht na hÉireann (Irish Constitution) does call the 26 county Irish state Éire, or in the English Ireland. However the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 changed the "official description" (a change of name would have needed a referendum) to Republic of Ireland or Poblacht na hÉireann.

 

The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 only had five lines

 

1. The Executive Authority (External Relations) Act 1936 (No.58 of 1936) is hereby repealed.

2. It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland.

3. The President, on the authority and on the advice of the Government, may exercise the executive power or any executive function of the State in or in connection with its external relations.

4. This Act shall come into operation on such day as the Government may by order appoint.

5. This Act may be cited as The Republic of Ireland Act, 1948.

 

- the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 effectively stopped the 26 county Irish state (Éire, or Ireland or Republic of Ireland or Poblacht na hÉireann) membership of the Commonwealth.

 

Here ends the history lesson

[Alan White]

Whay do we need to know the country when we have the coordinates?

As far as GC.com is concerned, I think the reasons are purely administrative. Some reasons:

 

The submission form varies depending on which country is chosen.

 

Caches are apportioned to reviewers based on the country (I think - someone can correct me on this).

 

As wlw notes, the cache page shows different grids dependent on the country.

 

PQs have an option to select by country (wlw's idea neatly sidesteps this).

 

If the country were done away with for GC.com (and I think you might have some resistance to that ) then these requirements would still have to be satisfied by other means. Not unsurmountable, but isn't the use of country just simpler?

 

The difficulty - aside from the original question - is that GC.com isn't conforming to any useful standards in deciding what a country is. For example, GC.com has countries called Jersey and Guernsey. But neither of those are countries. A Channel Islands "country" might be more useful (what if someone puts a cache on Alderney?). But it would still not detract from the fact that the CI are part of the UK.

 

ISO3166 is a good guide here. Yes, I know it defines codes not countries, but it's still a useful tool for computing purposes, and it's generally what's used for any lookups in programs that list countries. In the context of this discussion, the only countries listed are "United Kingdom of Great Britain & N. Ireland" and "Ireland".

 

There's no resolution of this, since we'll never get Groundspeak to use proper countries, and there'll no doubt always be a need to tread softly to avoid upsetting people's natural affiliations (mine included - I'm English, not British or UK-ish ).

 

Isn't history frustrating sometimes?

[+*bingoboy*]

"What is history but a fable agreed upon?"

Napoleon Bonaparte

[+sTeamTraen]

But it would still not detract from the fact that the CI are part of the UK.

Family Fortunes-style "uh-uhhh" buzzer sound

 

Did someone say "can of worms" ?

[Alan White]

But it would still not detract from the fact that the CI are part of the UK.

Family Fortunes-style "uh-uhhh" buzzer sound

 

Did someone say "can of worms" ?

You see? There's the problem.

 

That document clearly says the CI are not part of the UK, yet every map I've looked at in the last ten seconds shows them in the UK.

 

And I bet for every document we can find that says they aren't in the UK, we can find one which says they are

 

And none of them will say whether they're a country or not.

[+wildlifewriter]

That document clearly says the CI are not part of the UK, yet every map I've looked at in the last ten seconds shows them in the UK.

We're just going to have to get over it - and don't expect any sympathy from anywhere else in the world.

 

As far as I know, the UK is the only place where these blithering discussions take place. (Apart from Indonesia and Cyprus.)

 

All other sovereign nation states know exactly who and what they are, and which bits of them are which.

 

-Wlw

[+*bingoboy*]

As far as I know, the UK is the only place where these blithering discussions take place. (Apart from Indonesia and Cyprus.)

 

All other sovereign nation states know exactly who and what they are, and which bits of them are which.

 

-Wlw

Without looking into it much I can add Palestine/ Israel

[+Moote]

I suspect the co-ords given above are for the centre of England/UK?

No not the Centre of the UK, that is recognised as a point in Dunsop Bridge N 53°56.739', W 002°31.092'.

 

A query with these parameters...

 

*Any Type, *Any Container, *Is active, *From origin - By coordinates: N54º42.749 W005º16.594 - Radius of: 600 KM

 

... will pick up every active cache in the British Isles (except Shetland) in a single PQ.

 

No it will not, as there is a 500 cache limit on all PQ's

Edited January 26, 2006 by Moote

[+sTeamTraen]

All other sovereign nation states know exactly who and what they are, and which bits of them are which.

Well, apart from France, and Spain, and Denmark, and about half the countries in EU...

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/special-membe...ons-with-the-eu

[+wildlifewriter]

Well, apart from France, and Spain, and Denmark, and about half the countries in EU...

http://www.answers.com/topic/special-membe...ons-with-the-eu

 

<John Cleese mode>

 

Yes, yes, OK - but APART from Indonesia, France Spain, the Faeroe Islands, Greenland, Kashmir, Uzbekistahn, Tibet, Korea, Argentina, Sudan, Gambia, the Dominican Republic, Antarctica, AND Cyprus...

 

... what have the Romans ever done for US?

 

-Wlw

[+*bingoboy*]

....the wine don't forget the wine