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Clarification/suggestion On "no Kids" Caches


Enchanted Shadow

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Okay, let me preface my questions/suggestions with two things:

 

1. I'm guessing that this is probably going to be a topic with strong viewpoints on opposite sides. Please don't flame me for bringing it up, I'm just trying to get some information/opinions/intellectual debate on this matter.

 

2. I'd be shocked if this wasn't brought up before, by someone else. However, with the forum's Search function disabled (and yes, I tried using Google, too), I can't find anything prior, so I'm bringing this up from scratch.

 

Okay, now onto the meat of the matter...

 

As with many activities, there are a lot of views on how geocaching should be done, who should it be suitable for, etc... As a general item, geocaching is listed as a "family activity".

 

However, what I'm interested in, is in the possibility of being able to classify a cache as "Adults Only". Now, I realize that it is possible to set an attribute of "No kids". But I need clarification here.

 

If Geocaching.com's policy is that all caches must be "family friendly", than to me "No Kids" simply means that the terrain is dangerous for children, and nothing else.

 

However, I have seen caches that have deliberately been placed near adult stores (or similar), where that is relatively clearly indicated in the cache description, and the "No Kids" attribute was attached.

 

So, I need some clarification: If I wanted to create a cache that was for adults only - and by that I mean that either the location might be not suitable for kids (not what I had in mind, but I might as well add this in here), or that I didn't want people to feel limited in what they could place as cache contents (i.e. adult-only-suitable parody items such as Stephen Lynch CDs, a leatherman, heck, even a Playboy, for that matter) - could I do this, and be within acceptable guidelines for this site?

 

If I were to use caches that are currently published as a measure, I would assume that this would be okay, but I wanted to get a clear answer on this.

 

And if not, than I would offer the suggestion that it might be a nice thing to be able to do. If for no other reason, than because adults and kids don't always have interest in the same things, and because there are things that an adult would consider to be a *great* cache find (i.e. Leatherman), but which some parents wouldn't want their kids to possess. And, insofar as more mature items are concerned, while between adults it's easy to say "well, if you don't like it, or find it offensive, than just don't take it", that same mentality is not considered sufficient for kids, as many parents don't want their kids to even see/hear/be aware of such things in the first place.

 

Okay, so there are my questions/suggestions on the table. Let's see how painless (or painful) this is going to be. <duck> :)

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I believe your question is answered by the Cache Contents section of the Geocache Listing Guidelines document, which says:

 

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, lighters, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws. Geocaching is a family activity and cache contents should be suitable for all ages.

...

If the original cache contents list any of the above items or other questionable items, or if a cache is reported to have the questionable items, the cache may be disabled, and the owner of the cache will be contacted and asked to remove the questionable items before the cache is enabled.

 

If you want to hide a cache with adult contents, that's fine. Share the coordinates privately with others who might be interested in finding it, or list it on another listing service.

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If you want to hide a cache with adult contents, that's fine.  Share the coordinates privately with others who might be interested in finding it, or list it on another listing service.

 

 

Okay.

 

I did read that portion you quoted before I made my post, but what confused me was existing published caches that clearly went against those guidelines.

 

That being the case, I guess what's left is simply the suggestion that I think it would be nice to be able to expand those guidelines on a cache-by-cache basis.

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if you would be embarrassed to show your mom the conents or location of the cache, I would say don't list it.

 

There are certainly locations that are not appropriate for children that are suitable for listing here (difficult or dangerous terrain) but locations that are not appropriate for other reasons such as behind a strip club or adult book store should not be listed IMHO.

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if you would be embarrassed to show your mom the conents or location of the cache, I would say don't list it.

 

There are certainly locations that are not appropriate for children that are suitable for listing here (difficult or dangerous terrain) but locations that are not appropriate for other reasons such as behind a strip club or adult book store should not be listed IMHO.

 

 

I'm not really concerned about the location issue - I tossed that in because it was appropriate to the discussion, and because I found a cache that fell into that category.

 

My personal interest was in having caches where one didn't have to censor trade items, but where people would be free to leave items suitable for adults, but not suitable for kids.

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One reason that makes this a "hard sell" is that land managers are being told that geocaching is a family friendly sport. Not mostly family friendly, not partialy family friendly, but completely family friendly.

 

If Land Managers found out that some geocaches are allowed to have guns, knives and pornography, they would worry that some of these special caches would end up on thier property. Even if certain controls and policies were put in place to help control this, the chances are very very high that a new cacher would take that Playboy out of one cache and place it into another thinking it was OK. The odds of something going wrong are very very high.

Edited by Moose Mob
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One reason that makes this a "hard sell" is that land managers are being told that geocaching is a family friendly sport.  Not mostly family friendly, not partialy family friendly, but completely family friendly.

 

If Land Managers found out that some geocaches are allowed to have guns, knives and pornography, they would worry that some of these special caches would end up on thier property.  Even if certain controls and policies were put in place to help control this, the chances are very very high that a new cacher would take that Playboy out of one cache and place it into another thinking it was OK.  The odds of something going wrong are very very high.

 

 

Hmm. I understand. The issues regarding potential problems with Land Managers is not one I considered.

 

As far as your last point, however, I would argue that "what if" scenarios are not sufficient by themselves to warrant a policy restriction. It's easy enough to make a prominent note reminding people that the rules of this cache don't necessarily apply to others within the cache description, as well as inside the cache itself. After that, people who would violate that etiquette in other caches, are the ones who might do so anyway, even without our hypothetical adults-only cache.

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You should consider the possibility that the cache could be found accidentally. It would be a shame to discourage anyone from participating because of an offensive find. In every cache I have hidden, I have placed a notice explaining Geocaching for those who have accidentally found the cache. Though in 6 years I have only read 1 log entry by an accidental find. It is still a significant enough possibility. Muggles happen.

 

Edit: An after thought - so a Playboy, Leatherman or even a pack of cigarettes? Who is going to supervise these types of containers and check for ID? Next thing you know you're contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

 

And now from my Mommy soapbox.... illicit/harmfull items have no place in this family pastime. And it is not just kids I’m looking out for, but adults like myself. These things have no business being left lying around. A young kid does a search exclusively for Adult Only Caches and the next thing you know he/she has illicit/harmfull item under the mattress at home. I like geocaching.com as a safe site and not one that I would have put a parental block on.... off soapbox.

Edited by Texas-Jacksons
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Yeah... it really does come down to the integrity of the game. I have a younger child and, truthfully, don't see what harm could come from him seeing a boob in a magazine or finding a cache near a strip-club-- but with that said, I know that there are a lot of parents who would be totally offended by that kind of thing and would take aim against our sport for presenting their child with the opportunity to gain access to such items. Could you imagine what it would do to geocaching as a whole if some kid brought a weapon, porno mag or adult toy to school that they found in a cache they searched for on GC.com? It would be horrible. And, yes, caches are found accidentally quite often. I found a cache not so long ago that was stumbled upon by a nine year-old muggle named Francesca, who brought the cache to her mom-- they wrote a kind entry in the logbook before returning it to its original hiding place. I doubt the outcome would have been the same had the cache contained weapons or porn :o.

 

Basically, there are plenty of opportunities for adults to have fun in this world (and believe me, I have my share of adult fun), but Geocaching is better off as a non-offensive, all-ages activity. It simply gives our habi-- um-- hobby more integrity.... Now, if you're talking about Waymarking, that's a different story. I'm still waiting for the "Gentleman's Club" category :o !

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One reason that makes this a "hard sell" is that land managers are being told that geocaching is a family friendly sport. Not mostly family friendly, not partialy family friendly, but completely family friendly.

This doesn't exactly jibe with Keystone's statement above.

 

Either geocaching is a family friendly activity and the participants discourage such placements which are more adult oriented or it's okay for the activity, but Groundspeak has seen fit to restrict those on its site.

 

The only way your argument holds water is if the participants as a whole discourage such placements. If they don't, what's to say someone would place the cache anyway and simply list it on a different site?

 

That's not to mention a good deal of other issues with a cache. What about hours of access? Considering there is a problem with folks actually reading the cache page and determining when they are allowed to hunt the cache they simply go for it anyway. I'm not seeing Groundspeak doing much about that.

 

No, let's not cater to the lowest common denominator. We do they too much already.

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I doubt the outcome would have been the same had the cache contained weapons or porn :laughing:.

 

Basically, there are plenty of opportunities for adults to have fun in this world (and believe me, I have my share of adult fun), but Geocaching is better off as a non-offensive, all-ages activity.

 

 

You know, I think it's a sad turn of our society that knives are considered by so many to be a weapon, first and foremost. Knives are a *tool*, and too many people forget that. It wasn't that many generations ago, that young boys were regularly given pocket knives, and taught how to use them responsibly. Nowadays, parents scream and shudder at the thought that their baby might come across something *sharp*. I'm sorry, but the *tool* is not the problem. It's the parents and how kids are being raised. After all, *anything* can be used as a weapon. It's foolish to blame the object instead of the person who wields it, and it's foolish to try and solve the issue by sheltering people from said items, instead of simply teaching them how to deal with them in a responsible and safe manner. But that's what too many people are doing, and it's a bass ackwards way of doing things.

 

...<sigh> Sorry about that folks, this is just one of things that really peaves me off, and I guess I had to get that out. :laughing:

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Caches are publicly assessable. As such the contents should be suitable for children even if it's under the window of the local adult store since kids can and do walk by them.

 

The only way to truly have a kids cache is to put one where children are strictly prohibited. I've seen kids in bars, heck my grandma used to bring me...so there truly are not that many spots that don't see kids.

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...You know, I think it's a sad turn of our society that knives are considered by so many to be a weapon, first and foremost. Knives are a *tool*, and too many people forget that. It wasn't that many generations ago, that young boys were regularly given pocket knives, and taught how to use them responsibly. Nowadays, parents scream and shudder at the thought that their baby might come across something *sharp*. I'm sorry, but the *tool* is not the problem. It's the parents and how kids are being raised. After all, *anything* can be used as a weapon. It's foolish to blame the object instead of the person who wields it, and it's foolish to try and solve the issue by sheltering people from said items, instead of simply teaching them how to deal with them in a responsible and safe manner. But that's what too many people are doing, and it's a bass ackwards way of doing things.

 

...<sigh> Sorry about that folks, this is just one of things that really peaves me off, and I guess I had to get that out. :laughing:

 

You are bass ackwards on that. I agree a knife is a tool. Knives make great cache swag. The problem isn't the parents like you may think. The problem is certain people who live in paranoia about being sued, or held responsible if someone should happen to find a pocket knife in a cache in on their lands. Those people who do hold some power over our activity have created a defacto ban on knives. We live in a world where those people make rules. Case in point. My work. Any knife over a certain lenght (4" or so if I recall correctly) is banned. However if I want an 18" machette I can just walk down the hall and borrow one. Then there are the kitchen knives in our break room... Then there are the prisoners who work for us. They are allowed chainsaws and the use of vehicles. All tools for the job. However if I brought in my own Machette (actually a tool of the trade and not unusaly to posess in my profession...) I'd be in violation.

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Caches are publicly assessable. As such the contents should be suitable for children even if it's under the window of the local adult store since kids can and do walk by them.

 

The only way to truly have a kids cache is to put one where children are strictly prohibited. I've seen kids in bars, heck my grandma used to bring me...so there truly are not that many spots that don't see kids.

 

 

You make my point for me. *Most* things in life are accessible to kids (kids can buy knives, and browse through porn mags right in many stores, as an example). That does not mean that we should holler and rave about making life PG rated, because that's not going to happen. We should be raising our kids to live in the world that *exists* in a safe and responsible manner.

 

It's not that dissimilar from all the people ranting and raving about how they and their children are psychologically scarred for life because Janet Jackson't breast appeared for a fraction of a second on television. Please. If it takes that little to scar your children for life, than there's a serious problem about how you're raising your kids. The problem is NOT a natural part of anatomy that was responsible for feeding them through the first six months of their lives in the first place.

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You are bass ackwards on that. I agree a knife is a tool. Knives make great cache swag. The problem isn't the parents like you may think. The problem is certain people who live in paranoia about being sued, or held responsible if someone should happen to find a pocket knife in a cache in on their lands. Those people who do hold some power over our activity have created a defacto ban on knives. We live in a world where those people make rules.

 

 

However, we, as a people, influence each other. People didn't just go from a Saturday when boys having pocket knives were the norm and wake up on a Sunday when they figured that now was the time for that to be morally wrong.

 

If you were to cater to confining people to activities where no one was at risk of being sued, than the entire human species might as well commit suicide right now, because there are no such activities.

 

That being the case, the only reasonable response is to live life according to what you believe is right and just - and deal with the lawsuits when and if they come up, instead of being so afraid of them that you ban anything and everything from everyone.

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I doubt the outcome would have been the same had the cache contained weapons or porn :D.

 

Basically, there are plenty of opportunities for adults to have fun in this world (and believe me, I have my share of adult fun), but Geocaching is better off as a non-offensive, all-ages activity.

 

 

You know, I think it's a sad turn of our society that knives are considered by so many to be a weapon, first and foremost. Knives are a *tool*, and too many people forget that. It wasn't that many generations ago, that young boys were regularly given pocket knives, and taught how to use them responsibly. Nowadays, parents scream and shudder at the thought that their baby might come across something *sharp*. I'm sorry, but the *tool* is not the problem. It's the parents and how kids are being raised. After all, *anything* can be used as a weapon. It's foolish to blame the object instead of the person who wields it, and it's foolish to try and solve the issue by sheltering people from said items, instead of simply teaching them how to deal with them in a responsible and safe manner. But that's what too many people are doing, and it's a bass ackwards way of doing things.

 

...<sigh> Sorry about that folks, this is just one of things that really peaves me off, and I guess I had to get that out. :laughing:

 

Its something that bothers me too. Before the ban I frequently placed Swiss Army knives in caches and the finders loved them. They are awesome swag items.

 

The ban came about largely because land managers had concerns about "weapons" in caches. Now any sensible person knows that a swiss army knife is a tool and not a weapon. Heck, before 9/11 you could carry one on an airplane and I was admitted to the US Senate visitors gallery carrying one. But unfortunately all land managers are not sensible.

 

One park system banned geocaching in all its parks because of the mere mention in a logbook that the cache once contained a penknife. It wasn't even in the cache when they checked it. Now we know a penknife isn't a weapon, but the park authorities felt differently. I think that incident was what actually precipitated the no knives rule. Its the reality of what we have to deal with.

 

Rules like these aren't made up out of think air. There are reasons behind them.

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