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Logging A Find Question


CamoCacher

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Looks like we're in to another one of those debates about whether you have to sign the log or not. The guidelines (actually it says rules) say write something in the log book. But they also say take some and leave something and we know that almost everybody does a TNLN frequently so the rules are not hard and fast.

 

In terms of your specific scenario, I'd say you found it and can write it up as a smilie but I would put that in the log. The cache owner always has the right to say its not good enough. Personally, on one of mine, if the cacher can prove in some way they found it I'd let them keep it.

 

Ok, now everybody start the debate.

 

JDandDD

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Looks like we're in to another one of those debates about whether you have to sign the log or not. The guidelines (actually it says rules) say write something in the log book. But they also say take some and leave something and we know that almost everybody does a TNLN frequently so the rules are not hard and fast.

 

In terms of your specific scenario, I'd say you found it and can write it up as a smilie but I would put that in the log. The cache owner always has the right to say its not good enough. Personally, on one of mine, if the cacher can prove in some way they found it I'd let them keep it.

 

Ok, now everybody start the debate.

 

JDandDD

Thanks

 

For now I logged a needs maintance to the cache noting what I found.

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To me, technically you did "find" it, so I would take the smilie. It's not like you're guessing it was there but is not (in that case, I would log a DNF because A) maybe I really didn't find it, and B ) it may not be there to find and this helps tip off the cache owner).

 

I had that situation recently. There is a cache with 2 prior logs noting the same problem you mention; one logged it as a find and the other as a note. When I encountered the same situation (no I wasn't going there for the smilie, it was a very unusual place with a nice view and this was a good excuse to check it out :-)) I logged as a find using the logic in my first sentence above. I did note that as proof I "found" it I would be happy after being emailed that the cache is fixed to go back and sign the log ASAP. Interestingly enough, I noticed that after my find the "note" writer changed his to a "find" so I think he suddenly got the logic too.

 

In this case, it was so stuck in it's place (it's not a case of being "frozen", I think a previous finder re-hid it TOO well and really wedged it) that unless they do some minor physical damage to the structure I think it can never come back out and will be archived, it's too bad, it was a very unique place for a micro.

Edited by hairymon
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So how do people feel about logging a find in which you see the cache, touch the cache but it is frozen in its spot so you can't get it out to sign the log?

I had that exact thing happen to me. For me it was a 35mm film canister, so I couldn't be certain that it was the cache. Even so, I wouldn't have logged a find.

 

I did what Lil Devil suggested...logged a DNF and returned in the spring for my smilie.

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So how do people feel about logging a find in which you see the cache, touch the cache but it is frozen in its spot so you can't get it out to sign the log?

I had that exact thing happen to me. For me it was a 35mm film canister, so I couldn't be certain that it was the cache. Even so, I wouldn't have logged a find.

 

I did what Lil Devil suggested...logged a DNF and returned in the spring for my smilie.

That I agree with. If you can't be sure its the cache then definitely it can't be a find. There are other ways to verify. If the cacher can provide me specific details about the location and cache that you wouldn't know with visiting or can provide a picture then I accept it.

 

JDandDD

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I will add my (admittedly newbie) 2 cents....

 

[Camo, I know my comments are beyond what you asked, but I thought it might be worthwhile to mention some of these things for the benefit of other newbies like me who might be reading this.]

 

As noted above, you can always email the hider and ask for their guidance. You should abide by their preference, even if you disagree.

 

I also agree that if you can't positively ID it as the cache, you shouldn't count it.

 

Personally, I see absolutely nothing wrong with counting a find as a Find if your inability to log was due to a cache "malfunction" or a weather-related problem like icing up, neither of which you, the finder, have any control over. I do agree that it's great if you can go back later and sign the actual logbook.

 

I would ask myself: What is the cache hider's goal in regards to my find? Think about it.... there aren't too many cache hiders whose purpose is to see if you can open the cache box! Really, now.... If the goal is to bring me there and get me to find the cache, then as long as I make a reasonable attempt to sign the log, I think it counts.

 

On the other hand, if I DON'T make a reasonable attempt, it DOESN'T count, and thus deserves a Note or a DNF.

 

For instance, if I were to attempt a 4- or 5-star cache and decide not to climb up/down the side of a cliff to reach the cache because it looks too dangerous, its a definite DNF, because I DID NOT GET TO THE CACHE. Even if I can see it, it doesn't count, because I assume the hider's intention was to have finders climb the rock face. If I choose not to do so, then I didn't earn the smiley, and I should either read the cache description better next time or think twice about going for difficult caches.

 

Some examples of NOT making a reasonable attempt (ie: *NO* SMILEY):

1) The cache is 10 feet up a tree and I can see it but I didn't feel like climbing the tree. (Note or DNF)

2) I didn't want to reach into the hollow log because there was mud or spider webs or other icky stuff. (DNF)

3) I decided not to attempt a dangerous feat --like rock climbing, scuba diving, walking out on that old train trestle over the gorge, etc. (DNF)

4) I "know" where the cache is hidden but I couldn't find parking nearby. (Note)

5) I "know" where the cache is hidden but there were muggles there so I couldn't log it. (Note)

6) I "know" where the cache was hidden but it's missing. (DNF)

 

REPEAT: The above examples 1-6 should NOT count as a find, in my opinion.

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Kathy and the Grouch,

 

Actually, I think you really really put it well. None of the six examples you mention would be a find in my view, whereas a "cache malfunction" would be.

 

In another case of "cache malfunction", I retrieved and opened the cache and it had some gooey brown liquid that made the cache gross and the log impossible to sign. I logged as a find and was going to go back to re-sign, only to learn from another find log that after it was "fixed" it got that way again. Maybe I should put in an SBA note..... :)

Edited by hairymon
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1) Found the cache, but didn't like the people in the parking lot, so I put it back without signing it.

2) Found container, but the contents, including log book, were missing. Signed a piece of paper, and put it inside.

3) No one was at home to take my picture on the webcam.

4) Accidently knocked the cache into the Passaic River. Very sorry.

 

I logged #2. Did not allow #1 & #3. Would not accept invitation to log #4 (I'll be back someday, and I'll be more careful.)

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I have had several occations where I did not sign the log but counted it as a cache. In each case I e-mailed the cache owner and told them of the circumstances why I did not sign the cache. If the owner e-mailed me back saying that's not good enough, then I would delete the find. So far none of the cache owners has objected.

 

One cache owner e-mailed me that somebody must have placed the cache in the wrong place since where I described seeing it and being unable to reach it was not where it was supposed to be. But since my description of the cache container was correct he did not object to my logging it as a find. And he thanked me for letting him know about the misplaced cache.

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