Garmin 60csx Observations

January 24, 2006

Got my 60CX this afternoon. With WAAS enabled it's showing accuracy at least as good as my Legend, and I mean actual position error from known locations, not the EPE display (Estimated Position Error, it's not an 100% correct indication of accuracy.)

As for the "wandering" issue, I'm almost certain it's just that the GPS is filtering the data differently than their older units and is more "sensitive" to perceived motion (be it real or just from the inherent inaccuracy of the GPS signals.)

The receiver sensitivity is nothing to write home about, mainly because I doubt they'd believe what I'd have to say! My Legend loses it's lock just standing under the overhang above the front doors of the theater where I work, but 60CX kept it's lock far inside the building and only lost it when the doors in the elevator I took closed! Of course the accuracy when inside a metal building where the signal is simply bouncing inside from the front windows is of dubious value, but it's still highly impressive.

The speed of the unit seems to be quite a bit faster than I remember my Legend C being, but it's been a while so I can't say for sure. It's obviously far faster than my old B&W Legend of course.

Edited January 24, 2006 by Rotareneg

January 24, 2006

I just put mine outside to see what soaking in a clear sky will do for it..

So far I've only had it outdoors for about 20 minutes (mostly in 5 minute chunks.)

Indoors, it locked up and "settled" at about 19' estimated accuracy. This is amazing to me considering the near "safe-room" construction of my gaming/work room. My Legend C at best would get a weak lock if placed on the window sill and even then, only 3 sats at about 25' accuracy. The 60Cx kept lock everywhere in the room, but would rise to 60' when it got too close to the computer.

The thing that puzzles me is the shifting position. Makes me long for an option to turn off the trip computer. After an hour of sitting perfectly still on a table, it claimed to have gone a tight circular jaunt of over 500'.

I'm sure it won't be too long for a firmware update. (Hopefully including an alarm clock!)

1.8k · January 24, 2006

On top the Albany Medical Center - right?

Give the man a Cupie doll! You are correct Markhp! Actually atop the AMC parking garage in downtown Albany.

January 24, 2006

Not too hard to figure that out since you left your exact coordinace on the GPS screen.

January 24, 2006

The thing that puzzles me is the shifting position. Makes me long for an option to turn off the trip computer. After an hour of sitting perfectly still on a table, it claimed to have gone a tight circular jaunt of over 500'.

This happens to my Etrex yellow when I'm inside and stationary. This should never happen when he's outside right?

January 24, 2006

The shiftiness makes sense because the SiRF chip is not as picky as the old chipset so it will accept satellites that are rejected by the old. Therefore, you'll have some shiftiness because some of the satellite data is incorrect but still used but should have been filtered out.

Edited January 24, 2006 by jcc123

January 24, 2006

It's not as pronounced outdoors, but still present.

It'll sit on a table outside and think it moved a total of 25' in half an hour. Though I must admit I didn't place it in the best possible spot, and it may have been getting SV35 off a reflection...

I'll know more tomorrow when I go to work and can leave it in a flat, hill-top parking lot with nothing around for a mile.

1.4k · January 24, 2006

I wonder if anyone has received a 76Cx and noticed the same phantom wandering syndrome?

WAAS on or off? I know in my (older) GPS, having the WAAS on tended to make the signal "jumper". Trying to find "ground zero" would have you wondering around like a drunk.

7.2k · January 24, 2006

While I've been a real fan of the SporTraks for a long time, I've been eyeing a 60 model, or better yet, a pair of the new Rino530's.

I'm hearing some good things about the X series like reception like that of the SporTraks , but I think a few folks are missing the point with arguing "accuracy."

I'd like to see how well these units can get a repeatable reading. In other words, can they take you back to the same spot day after day? I mean within ±0.001' repeatability?

The thought of a Rino530x makes me drool, but if it can't perform...

January 24, 2006

I first used a sirf III chipset in a bluetooth receiver with my PPC. If I used BeeLine for caching and watched my tracks I would also have some wondering which was more pronounced when I was standing still. However, when I use it for driving directions with TomTom it doesn't move anywhere off the road. So, I guess all we can do is wait for Garmin to address this with future upgrades.

January 24, 2006

When driving it's different because it locks on to road. In the field with no roads around it won't know what to lock on to.

January 24, 2006

Looks like the 18 hour life may be correct: I measured my 60Cx's current draw at roughly 125 mA with no back-light on, which in theory gives 20 hours with my Energizer 2500 mAh NiMH's. With the back light up to max it pulls 280 mA, cutting battery life down to about 8.9 hours if you left it on non-stop.

Oh, and the road lock only happens if you have "Lock on road" turned on in the display settings.

Edited January 24, 2006 by Rotareneg

January 24, 2006

The Garmin 60Cx should have 30 hours life time. The 60CSx should have 18 hours life.

I think they should be almost the same if you turn the compass off (on the 60CSx)

Batnun

January 24, 2006

There seems to be some limitation as to how many maps can be included in a 'mapset' in MapSource. I purchased a 512MB microSD and I tried including BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan in one 'mapset' using TopoCanada. It would have included 1729 maps utilizing 463MB of memory. I got an error message indicating that I had 679 too many maps. Doing the math, the magic number seem to be 1050 maps maximum in a 'mapset'. Through some experimentation, I have confirmed that 1050 maps is the maximum.

There is a beta release of a mapsource patch on Garmin's website that might fix this issue... I'd test it myself, but I only have a 256MB card at the moment.

January 25, 2006

The box on my 60Cx came in says 18 hours normal use and 30 with battery saver. The measured power consumption agrees with their claims.

Edited January 25, 2006 by Rotareneg

January 25, 2006

I've run mine in 4-6 hour chunks for a total of 20 hours now with alkaline batteries and still have 50% on the meter. (60Cx)

I'll continue the test in the morning and will report back..

Can't wait to see how it does on lithiums!

Edited January 25, 2006 by weakfish

January 25, 2006

thanks for the icon pics.. the first thing that came to my mind is that they look more "playful". Thanks for the pics again.. this will be a non-issue for me!

January 25, 2006

The icons are identical (almost) to my Legend C, so to me, it's business as usual.

I just want an alarm clock added in and a fix for the mystical wandering cursor..

Oh, I also want to be able to turn off the trip computer... as I don't really find it useful unless it's tied to turning on tracks.

A memory card status/usage meter would be nice too!

As would an option for lithium batteries.

5 relatively minor 'fixes' and this unit would be perfect.

(6 if you count removing the item refering to Temperature from the 60Cx.)

January 25, 2006

If by turning off the trip computer you mean removing the page, you can. Go to set up, Page Sequence, select Trip Computer and then remove. You can also change all the data fields if you want of course.

January 25, 2006

Hopefully we can put together a list of improvements needed in the future for the CSX, and email to Garmin to implement in future firmware update.

5. Add Ablity To Load Maps And Wayppoints To Transflash Memory Card

FYI, this is the response I got from Garmin tech support when I emailed them about storing user waypoints on the microSD:

At this time I am not aware of any current or future plans to
offer the ability to transfer user waypoints to the microSD card. Since the card

stores the details maps as flash memory, there could be issues with it

erasing the user waypoints when maps are loaded and changed.

January 25, 2006

That doesn't make any sense. Have they not ever heard of folders? Put maps under a maps folder and waypoints under waypoints. How easy is that?

January 25, 2006

someone should give them an explorist to play with...

January 25, 2006

Hi there...

Can someone confirm that, if you put a lot of maps in the CSX, it will become slower?

Very slower?

Thanks

João Lopes

January 25, 2006

For those that have "played" with the new 60csx, I'm wonder if any changes have been made to the number of characters that can be displayed in the geocache comment field. I use GSAK to create my cache waypoints and would like to include the hint, among other parameters, but the current 30+/- character limit is not conducive for listing the hint. My buddy's new Explorist 600 list all the necessary data, e.g., GC Code, name, hidden by, terrain, difficulty, type, size, last found and hint. It would be great if Garmin could implement something like this as well.

1.1k · January 25, 2006

Hi there...

Can someone confirm that, if you put a lot of maps in the CSX, it will become slower?

Very slower?

Thanks

João Lopes

I filled a 512 mb with CitySelect, Topo, and Tide Charts....I noticed no significant slowing of the routing. It did slow up a little when I tested a complicated 1000 mile route, but previously that type of routing would not have been possible.

1.1k · January 25, 2006

For those that have "played" with the new 60csx, I'm wonder if any changes have been made to the number of characters that can be displayed in the geocache comment field.

The character string is unchanged at 30. I personally have all the info (minus the hint) that you mentioned. Since I use a handheld PC to carry about 1500 cache pages, I use that if I really want the hint. I sort of hate to have it too available, though.

January 25, 2006

For those that have "played" with the new 60csx, I'm wonder if any changes have been made to the number of characters that can be displayed in the geocache comment field.

The character string is unchanged at 30. I personally have all the info (minus the hint) that you mentioned. Since I use a handheld PC to carry about 1500 cache pages, I use that if I really want the hint. I sort of hate to have it too available, though.

Quoddy, thanks for confirming this for me. I also carry a HP 4705 PPC with my cache pages, but I just hate carrying both. I sent an email off to Garmin about the 30 character limit and asked if in the future they would implement this type of feature. We'll see what they say!

5.3k · January 25, 2006

The waypoint name is now longer, but the comment is the same length.

Garmin not only allows those newfangled lower case letters now, but also international characters. I haven't looked to see if it's CP1252 or ISO 8859-1, but it looks like the western character set is reasonably represented now.

(Of course, their protocol technically prohibits apps frome sending these, but it does work if you just happen to send them..)

January 26, 2006

I have a 60CS and would like to upgrade, the problem is that you cannot transfer City Select to another unit. You are only given two codes and if both are used, as I have, you are s**t out of luck.

Barry

January 26, 2006

In a word, yes, you're out of luck, I just went through this exact thing. I tried every way I could to get Garmin to let me "re-load' one more time to my new 60CSx especially since I sell Garmin GPS at a large local outdoor center and really needed it to also demonstrate the software to customers. They're hard nosed as hell about the "two shots and you're out" policy I'm afraid!

Edited January 26, 2006 by Didjerrydo

January 26, 2006

Hummm, I wonder why they don't have a more user friendly activation policy like the iTunes where you can authorize/deauthorize a set number of units. After all, wouldn't they want people to buy different machines from them?

January 26, 2006

Hummm, I wonder why they don't have a more user friendly activation policy like the iTunes where you can authorize/deauthorize a set number of units. After all, wouldn't they want people to buy different machines from them?

Personally I like the iTunes model of authorizing machines and it would be cool if Garmin went to something similar. Unfortunately they are out to make money on their mapping software...

January 26, 2006

Don't put that much trust in the EPE number. EPE is just what it sounds like, Estimated Positional Error. At work We have an exact position (1cm). We have tested both the eXplorist 600 and the 76CS for accuracy (on several occasions). Sometimes the EPE is correct. Most of the time the EPE says that the units are off by say 50 feet but in fact they show a position between 5 and 15 feet. Anything closer than 10 feet (actual position) is "coincidental". WAAS and EGNOS isn't more accurate than that. At least not 2DRMS.

January 26, 2006

Huh?

January 26, 2006

Huh?

oops I did not see the second page and that the thread had taken a new turn. Sorry.

January 27, 2006

In a word, yes, you're out of luck, I just went through this exact thing. I tried every way I could to get Garmin to let me "re-load' one more time to my new 60CSx especially since I sell Garmin GPS at a large local outdoor center and really needed it to also demonstrate the software to customers. They're hard nosed as hell about the "two shots and you're out" policy I'm afraid!

You could do an map upgrade on the primary unit that you unlocked the mapset for.

(Yes, I know this costs something)

You will find that the second unlock can be used for a different unit to the second unit that you unlocked the earlier maps to.

January 27, 2006

Yeah, actually a friend and I both loaded the program so both its "loads" were used up!

January 27, 2006

Someone please help this mac user understand this arcane system of preventing unwarranted installs...

So you buy City Navigator and you enter a coupon code and enter your personal information onto the Garmin website. It then spits out a "customer code" which you input during the install process and in effect allows you to do which of the following?

a) Download maps from the DVD to the GPS

View maps from the DVD onto your comp

c) Both?

So say in CN I want to download maps of New York City because I'm going there on a trip. I load the maps onto my GPS. When I come home in New Hampshire, I need to load maps of my local area for when I go hiking (in effect erasing the NYC data from my microSD card). How many times will I need to have entered the customer code? When I enter the customer code, does it send out a message to Garmin central where it confirms that I am the proper owner? What if I load them on a laptop without internet access????? :lol: :lol:

3.8k · January 27, 2006

The code is more like the key to your car. Once you have it you can load and unload maps as many times as you want to the unit that the key fits.

If you lose the key you can get it from Garmin. That is why it is on the Garmin website. Once you load the key into Mapsource you should not neeed to enter it again.

January 27, 2006

The code is more like the key to your car. Once you have it you can load and unload maps as many times as you want to the unit that the key fits.

If you lose the key you can get it from Garmin. That is why it is on the Garmin website. Once you load the key into Mapsource you should not neeed to enter it again.

Yes, but does it "confirm" through Garmin's website that the owner is accessing the maps? Hence, my laptop question.

So every time I select a new map to load onto the GPS, it asks for that confirm code?? oy vey.

January 27, 2006

Someone please help this mac user understand this arcane system of preventing unwarranted installs...

So you buy City Navigator and you enter a coupon code and enter your personal information onto the Garmin website. It then spits out a "customer code" which you input during the install process and in effect allows you to do which of the following?

a) Download maps from the DVD to the GPS

View maps from the DVD onto your comp

c) Both?

So say in CN I want to download maps of New York City because I'm going there on a trip. I load the maps onto my GPS. When I come home in New Hampshire, I need to load maps of my local area for when I go hiking (in effect erasing the NYC data from my microSD card). How many times will I need to have entered the customer code? When I enter the customer code, does it send out a message to Garmin central where it confirms that I am the proper owner? What if I load them on a laptop without internet access?????

Maybe this explanation will help:

You can load the City Navigator/City Select Software to as many computers as you want. 1, 2, 10, 100 computers -- it doesn't matter. You enter the unlock code on each computer that you install the software. The unlock code, however, is not to unlock the software, it is the key to your handheld unit.

So, when you want to upload a map you plug your handheld into the computer. If there is an unlock code for that handheld entered into the computer, you can download maps all day long into your handheld. You can upload waypoints, tracks, routes, into the computer as well.

If there is no unlock key for the handheld unit entered on that computer, then you can't do anything. No uploads, no downloads. You are SOL.

PS: there is no confirm through Garmin's website. You can use the website to "restore" the unlock code, but you do not have to be connected to the internet to be able to use your handheld on on any computer (laptop, desktop, etc.).

Hopefully that helps.

January 27, 2006

thank you...however draconian that system is (I mean c'mon who has ONLY two GPSs? ; )). I guess whatever pads their bottom line...

This begs the question though: How does the application know how many GPSs are authenticated if not having to connect to Garmin is not required?

January 27, 2006

thank you...however draconian that system is (I mean c'mon who has ONLY two GPSs? ; )). I guess whatever pads their bottom line...

You can purchase additional "unlock" codes for each GPSr you own for each program (i.e. City Select v7). Which does indeed pad Garmin's bottom line. :lol:

This begs the question though: How does the application know how many GPSs are authenticated if not having to connect to Garmin is not required?

The unlock code is associated to your GPSr's unit ID (which is communicated to the software when you attach your GPSr to your computer).

January 27, 2006

That doesn't make any sense. Have they not ever heard of folders? Put maps under a maps folder and waypoints under waypoints. How easy is that?

Perhaps their little ARM core is out of code space and they had to use the SMC to do block based flash access.

2.4k · January 27, 2006

Hummm, I wonder why they don't have a more user friendly activation policy like the iTunes where you can authorize/deauthorize a set number of units. After all, wouldn't they want people to buy different machines from them?

Personally I like the iTunes model of authorizing machines and it would be cool if Garmin went to something similar. Unfortunately they are out to make money on their mapping software...

Garmin probably wouldn't mind that type of system since they're primarily a hardware company.

But the primary impetus for copy protection of the maps seems to come from the map vendors like NavTeq. Afterall, Garmin never instituted any copy protection for their maps like Roads&Recreation (from TIGER data) or their Topo maps (from USGS data. But when both Garmin and Magellan switched to the auto-routing data from NavTeq they both started to use some form of copy protection. I expect that's because they're required to do so in the licensing agreements they have with NavTeq (and also with the supplier of marine data).

So letting you switch between different units while keeping the same maps wouldn't be bad for Garmin since it would encourage you to remain a loyal Garmin customer. But it would keep NavTeq from making money through new map purchases and they're the ones who would likely object to that form of copy protection.

January 27, 2006

I installed City Select, connected my 60c to my pc & used the Mapsource unlock wizard (entered the code from the mapsource cd). Took about 20 seconds to get it done.

Edited January 27, 2006 by whitecrow

1.8k · January 28, 2006

I had a chance to compare accuracy between my 60C and 60CX today in the field. With WAAS enabled they both performed identically, with the exception of course of my CX establishing lock instantly, before the display screen appeared. I used a couple of my survey control points to do this test, and both units showed indicated EPE of between +/-6' to +/-10' as I'm used to seeing in relatively ideal conditions. Both agreed to within a couple of feet of each other, and brought me to within 8' of the published coordinates. So, I would have to conclude that the new SiRFIII chipset in the 60CX unit is just as accurate as what I'm used to seeing in the older 60C unit, which is good to +/- 2 meters, or 6.5 feet, w/WAAS enabled- in ideal conditons of course. Next will be a test under some evergreen trees (no deciduous here this time of year!) to see how it performs under canopy.

January 28, 2006

6. I wish they had included a "lithium" setting for the battery type menu item. I would assume many GPS users out there are using the new much lighter and more efficient lithium AA's. This surely would have been helpful.

Pick the NiMH/NiCd setting. They have a discharge curve nearly identical to Li-Fe cells.

BTW, how is the battery life? The manual was depressing. That short life time was the main reason I *didn't* buy one.

Cheers,

David

January 28, 2006

Pick the NiMH/NiCd setting. They have a discharge curve nearly identical to Li-Fe cells.

BTW, how is the battery life? The manual was depressing. That short life time was the main reason I *didn't* buy one.

Cheers,

David

Short Life? According to everything I have read, the battery life in the 60Cx is like 30hrs... How is this short?

Grimm-

2.4k · January 28, 2006

6. I wish they had included a "lithium" setting for the battery type menu item. I would assume many GPS users out there are using the new much lighter and more efficient lithium AA's. This surely would have been helpful.

Pick the NiMH/NiCd setting. They have a discharge curve nearly identical to Li-Fe cells.

The *shape* of the discharge curve is very similar, but the actual voltages are not. The Energizer lithiums start out around 1.7V, stay steady at about 1.6V, and are almost dead by the time they drop down to 1.3V. OTOH, NiCd and NiMH cells start at about 1.3V and stay steady at about 1.2V until falling off rapidly at the end.

So if the battery meter is properly calibrated for NiMH it should show full charge at the 1.3V level and if you instead have the lithium cells in there the meter should continue to read full until the cells are only a very short time from going completely dead.

But due to the sharp voltage dropoff at the end of life of all of these battery chemistries I wouldn't put much reliance in the battery meter anyway. Better to always have a set of fully charged replacement cells available just in case the first set wasn't as charged as you thought.

Garmin 60csx Observations

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