Trade Etiquette

[+SLO Trekker]

I would like to see a page on the web site regarding the proper etiquette of trade items, including travel bugs and geocoins. Put it all in one place, and have a link to it from the "Getting Started" page. That, or else expand on the rules in "The Geocaching FAQ" and "Guide to Finding a Geocache." I would even suggest that a "Welcome to Geocaching" e-mail be sent out when someone creates a new account with a short summary of how the sport works and what the ground rules are.

 

I think it would help prevent a lot of hostility and confusion. It would be a real help to those new to the sport to make it VERY easy to find, instead of having to sift through the forums with all of the differing viewpoints. It would also help set a standard so that everyone would know what is considered "fair play".

 

For example, beyond the "Take one, leave one" rules, what about:

 

1. Can you trade multiple items (like two for two)? If so, how many?

2. Should the trade be items of equal or greater value/quality?

3. Do TBs count as trade items? (The consensus seems to be no, but I was recently chewed out for this.)

4. Can you take more than one TB if there are more than one in the cache? If so, how many? Can you take them all?

 

None of this is even mentioned in the information made available to beginners. Much of it we may all agree on anyway, so why not go ahead and spell it out? I don't mean to burden the sport with a whole bunch of rules and regulations, but I do think a "published" etiquette would serve our sport well. Specifically, the TB issues desparately need to be addressed and clarified on the web site.

[+Bill & Tammy]

I second the motion from the honorable representative from California.

[+wiseye]

Yeah! WTG

[+ZackJones]

1. Can you trade multiple items (like two for two)? If so, how many?

2. Should the trade be items of equal or greater value/quality?

3. Do TBs count as trade items? (The consensus seems to be no, but I was recently chewed out for this.)

4. Can you take more than one TB if there are more than one in the cache? If so, how many? Can you take them all?

Answers are provided based upon my opinion so others may disagree with me...

 

1 - Yes trade as many items as you want as long as for each item you take you put something in unless the cache is totally stuffed then I think it's ok to take an extra item to make a little room.

 

2 - Trades should be equal or you trade up meaning leave something better than you took.

 

3 - No. TBs are a separate part of the game. Their goal is to travel. They do so by moving from cache to cache. Unless of course you're a Geocoin and then your goal is to travel to events and get everyone and their brother to log seeing you, but that's another topic all together.

 

4 - It depends on several things. First, if the TB has a mission sheet attached read it and if you can help the TB on its mission then feel free to take it. If you can't help it on its mission then leave it behind. Second, if the TB does not have a mission sheet then feel free to take it. You can find out later what it wants to do and hopefully help it. Third, some TB Hotels have a 1 for 1 trade requirement for TBs. Some follow this requirement and others ignore it. I try to follow it as much as possible. Finally, as far as taking them all goes. If you're visiting a 5/5 cache that hasn't been found in a long while then I would say take them all; however, if you're visiting a TB Hotel then I wouldn't take them all. No one likes to visit an empty TB Hotel.

[+Miragee]

. . . I would even suggest that a "Welcome to Geocaching" e-mail be sent out when someone creates a new account with a short summary of how the sport works and what the ground rules are.

. . .

I think this is a really good idea. It is amazing how many people do not read the pinned threads in the Forums . . . and many, many people never come to the Forums at all.

 

The email could have a friendly welcome with a very brief explanation of the "guidelines" and include links to the explanation about TBs and Geocoins and the acronyms, among many other "Frequently Posted Questions."

[+ChileHead]

Third, some TB Hotels have a 1 for 1 trade requirement for TBs. Some follow this requirement and others ignore it. I try to follow it as much as possible.

I ignore that. I try to put myself in the shoes of the person who owns the TB, not the travel bug prison. I hate TB hotels with a passion. Every time a bug of mine gets into one I know it's gonna be a while before it moves again. TB hotels do just the opposite of what they are supposed to do. Bugs get stuck there.

 

If somebody is arrogant enough to put a stupid rule on their cache that affects things that are really not part of their cache, I'll ignore it and probably take as many of the bugs as I can.

[+Kealia]

2. Should the trade be items of equal or greater value/quality?

I think the email welcome idea is a good one.

 

Although I'm not sure I want anybody playing this game (whatever) if they can't figure out #2 by themselves.

[+5¢]

Third, some TB Hotels have a 1 for 1 trade requirement for TBs. Some follow this requirement and others ignore it. I try to follow it as much as possible.

I ignore that. I try to put myself in the shoes of the person who owns the TB, not the travel bug prison. I hate TB hotels with a passion. Every time a bug of mine gets into one I know it's gonna be a while before it moves again. TB hotels do just the opposite of what they are supposed to do. Bugs get stuck there.

 

If somebody is arrogant enough to put a stupid rule on their cache that affects things that are really not part of their cache, I'll ignore it and probably take as many of the bugs as I can.

I rob all travel bug hotels with rules just out of spite. As a travel bug hotel owner, I have a rule that says there are no rules for trading.

[+Zzyzx Road]

I agree with the welcome email, maybe even to something like the "Do you agree with our terms" kind of thing...where you have to actually check the box...and then when it is an accepted account, you get a welcoming email stating the same things...

[+kelly@9]

I agree with this in principle, but I can't imagine all the arguments that will go on to hash out just what the "rules", or even the guidelines, should be. There are lots of people with differing and incompatible opinions on pretty much every potential guideline, just look at any forum thread!

[+SLO Trekker]

Yes, this is an unfortunate consequence of not having laid out more definite guidelines earlier in the history of the sport. Still, better late than never. I think the effort is still worthwhile.

 

For it to ever happen, it would probably take a very select group of key people involved in the sport, such as Groundspeak staff, cache reviewers, and some of the more experienced geocachers, to just hash it out and then publish it. Of course, no matter what the end result was, there would always be a percentage of those who disagree. I bet that percentage would be small though, and they would probably be people who don't tend to play by the rules anyway.

[+Enchanted Shadow]

 

Yes, this is an unfortunate consequence of not having laid out more definite guidelines earlier in the history of the sport. Still, better late than never. I think the effort is still worthwhile.

 

For it to ever happen, it would probably take a very select group of key people involved in the sport, such as Groundspeak staff, cache reviewers, and some of the more experienced geocachers, to just hash it out and then publish it. Of course, no matter what the end result was, there would always be a percentage of those who disagree. I bet that percentage would be small though, and they would probably be people who don't tend to play by the rules anyway.

 

 

I have to admit that I take a bit of offense at that. Being in the minority, opinion-wise, does not necessarily make you the bad guy, nor does it necessarily make you wrong, or diminish the value of your opinion.

 

After all, there have been several points in time, where thinking that *all* humans had rights would have put you very squarely into that minority category - but that doesn't mean that your opinion wouldn't have been worthwhile, am I right?

 

Geocaching is a fluid sport, it changes to meet new views, new needs, and new desires.

 

If you want to post a list of etiquette, that's fine. But I would also add that this list should clearly indicate that points of etiquette are not *rules*, per se, but only the general concensus at the time they were posted. And that, not only may they change over time, but that there are many individual circumstances that may perfectly justify an act that would normally be outside those points of etiquette. Ultimately, each person is responsible for using their brain and determining what's right and what's not.

 

Does that seem fair?

[+SLO Trekker]

You bet! I actually agree with you. Sorry that my previous post came across as offensive. Sometimes the words don't come out right with that foot in my mouth.

 

What I should have said is that most geocachers I have interacted with seem very responsible, love the sport dearly, and would (in my opinion) probably respect a set of guidelines knowing that their intent was to improve the sport and avoid possible conflicts between fellow enthusiasts. By "respect" I don't mean to imply "agree with", but more of "appreciate the thought behind, or take into consideration."

 

Sure, they would only be guidelines. Of course each Geocacher would have to interpret and apply them as necessary in differing circumstances. But they would establish a common reference that is needed in some situations.

 

Take the TB issue for example. I am still in a quandary as to how to treat them. It seems there is a general consensus in this forum that they are not trade items. That is what I had always thought. That is, until a recent occasion when I offended someone by not leaving a trade item or another TB behind. This was from a Geocacher I have actually met and have a lot of respect for. Because there is no established guideline on this, I feel compelled to leave a trade item from now on just in case the cache owner, or next person to find the cache, is convinced it is unfair to do otherwise. If we had a published etiquette, I could gently point out to the offended party that I'm only following the recommended guidelines. They may still disagree with it, but at least they could better understand my motivation and see that I wasn't just being a jerk.

 

As you said, this is a dynamic sport that is continually evolving. It is becoming more complex as we speak. I think the "take one, leave one" rule needs to evolve along side it.

[+Zzyzx Road]

I have explained to the uninformed that a Travel Bug is really a "hitchhiker" with an agenda/course to follow.

My lovely analogy:

If you are able to help him out (Being southbound on a freeway and seeing some guy at the exit asking for a ride north isn't helping him out) and take him a little further to his goal..so be it. Or you could choose to pass him by...but you don't take him home to meet your mother and go to church with you and call him "bro" either.

[CoyoteRed]

Geocaching is a fluid sport, it changes to meet new views, new needs, and new desires.

Wrong.

 

There is a basic definition of geocaching. The hobby will always have this core. It will never morph to you having to carry a ball across some goal line, race each other on motorcycles from one point to another, or not be able to use a GPS. If the hobby morphs into one of those things it would be something else.

 

The statement of "[whatever] is fluid" is the same as those who claim the Bible, or some other document, is a living document. In other words, you want it to mean what you want it mean, not what it really means.

 

Back to the topic at hand, a set of guidelines for trading is certainly a do-able project. (Try doing it for the game itself!)

 

First, my preference for how we trade comes from "Trade Kindly." (See my siggy.) This really means leaving the cache ready for the next person. The "take one, leave one" aspect of the hobby doesn't mean to take the Leatherman and leave an acorn. A cache is supposed to be perpetual. I appreciate the cache owner's efforts for placing a decent cache enough to not have to make him come out and do maintenance after I'm done. Not leaving it ready for the next person means you're not doing your job as a finder.

 

Secondly, trinkets are the "property" of the box until such time they are traded out, then they are the property of the trader. Would you ever dream of telling a person you picked up for a ride they belonged to you? Of course not. The same is for TB's. They are hitchhikers and continue to belong to the hiker's owner and are not subject to trinket rules or rules placed by the owner of the box.

 

Thirdly, these concepts are basic concepts of the hobby. They might not be understood well by the body in general, but that doesn't make them any less appropriate. Doesn't make them "fluid" either. Etiquette in geocaching is no more "fluid" than etiquette is in real life.

 

These concepts not being understood by anyone in the hobby should be considered a failure of the community. The leader of the community is Groundspeak and some feel they are not doing the best they could do in this respect.

 

I agree with the OP, more can be done.

[+ZackJones]

Take the TB issue for example. I am still in a quandary as to how to treat them. It seems there is a general consensus in this forum that they are not trade items.

 

If you print out a travel bug sheet the very first line reads:

 

This is no ordinary geocaching trading item!

 

If you can help a TB to meet its goal by all means do so.

[+Enchanted Shadow]

 

Geocaching is a fluid sport, it changes to meet new views, new needs, and new desires.

 

Wrong.

 

There is a basic definition of geocaching. The hobby will always have this core. It will never morph to you having to carry a ball across some goal line, race each other on motorcycles from one point to another, or not be able to use a GPS. If the hobby morphs into one of those things it would be something else.

 

The statement of "[whatever] is fluid" is the same as those who claim the Bible, or some other document, is a living document. In other words, you want it to mean what you want it mean, not what it really means.

 

 

<snip>

 

 

Thirdly, these concepts are basic concepts of the hobby.  They might not be understood well by the body in general, but that doesn't make them any less appropriate.  Doesn't make them "fluid" either.  Etiquette in geocaching is no more "fluid" than etiquette is in real life.

 

 

Apparently, you have a very limited understanding of history.

 

Rules of etiquette, societal norms, traditions, etc... have most definitely changed over time. As an example, consider what was considered socially appropriate for weddings 40 years ago, and compare them with what people consider acceptable today.

 

As far as geocaching goes, when it first started, did states have mandatory registration requirements for caches? No. It's something that has evolved over time, as the sport/hobby/activity of geocaching has grown, and knowledge of it has become more widespread.

 

And do you think that the complete set of guidelines and generally accepted rules of geocaching etiquette are exactly the same today as they were when geocaching was first started?

 

Of course not. Those guidelines and rules of etiquette have *also* evolved over time. People learned what worked, and what didn't. And do you think there was the same sense of freedom on where a cache could be placed pre and post 9/11? Of course, not. There we have an event that has led to a much higher level of suspicion and paranoia than existed previously.

 

And as cachers, we need to respect that and work with it.

 

And what about all the different types of caches (virtual, mystery, multi, etc...). Did they exist from the very beginning? Nope. How about travel bugs, geocoins, etc...? Nope.

 

Therefore, geocaching - just like etiquette in real life - is indeed fluid. It changes to meet new views, new needs, and new desires.

 

My original statement stands.