Caches Stuffed With Religious Propaganda...

[+Ballooner]

This is obviously a Catholic site and is no doubt revered by many. It looks like a neat place. Someone (probably many people) put a lot of work and time into making it for other people to enjoy.

This not a catholic site. It was private farmland and a christian (protestant) group decided to erect this cross a few years ago. I got tied up in the traffic jam on Interstate 40 for it's grand openning. I was somewhat confused because local, county and state police agencies were doing traffic control. I hope the group paid for the law enforcement services ..... not public taxes.

 

I only respond to your comment because it seems to imply some "obvious" historical justification. This is no different from a newly built church. Just bigger than most.

Edited January 21, 2006 by Ballooner

[+El Diablo]

For those of you that are in favor of removing the tracts because they promote an agenda, are you not also promoting your agenda by removing them?

That was already my point entirely.

 

People don't agree with the agenda that those tracts promote.

 

People don't agree with the agenda that a removal of tracts promotes.

 

If I should have to be satisified by the affrontiveness of finding religious tracts in a cache, then those leaving them should have to be satisfied by the affrontiveness of my removing them as well.

 

The big difference between finding them or removing them is that finding them is an unsolicited proselytizing when I go out geocaching. Removing them doesn't result in anything (other than it not being there to affront the next person)...especially if it's a trade, then it's mine anyways and I can do what I please with it.

It sounds like your assuming that "affronting the next person" is a bad thing. So my question to you is, what gives you the right to make that decision?

 

The majority of the caches that I've been to is filled with what I would label as junk. Should I take those out so the next person isn't affronted with junk?

 

As I pointed out earlier, if that was the case, 98% of caches would be empty.

 

I don't like religious tracts. I'd rather find a reference to a good passage in the bible that made me stop and think. However that's not the point. The point is that I don't have the right to decide what others may like.

 

El Diablo

[Stearmandriver]

When I find these tracts in cache I find that belong to others I often trade for them and leave behind a tract on sweet potatoes, the NC state vegetable. It's full of good nutritional information and recipes. After all don't you want to be in good shape and healthy when you finally get to the head of that line?  

Dude, I love that! You're right, I'll have to find an educational tract of my own to trade out for. Maybe one that contrasts actual middle eastern history with... ah, never mind. I actually do have a use for these things if I trade for them - we sit outside around a fire most every summer evening I'm home, and it seems I can never find trash to start the fire with when I need it!

 

Seriously, I thought I'd explained it right in my OP, but just let me make the point again: I am NOT talking about removing any item of religious significance, just because it's religious. I have seen that people use these as their calling cards, and I agree that, just because I don't want the rosary or whatever, someone else might. I really am referring to caches that have been stuffed to the gills with these (incredibly poorly written and illogical) fire and brimstone tracts. There's no question that this is someone trying to push their agenda. They've been in the same area too, suggesting it's probably the same individual or group doing this. Now, I am also confident in my personal beliefs. I couldn't care less about anyone else's religious beliefs. All I expect is the same courtesy in return. Using a simple and fun forum like caching to push this stuff seems very inappropriate. And from a practical point of view, really who in their right mind is going to experience a sudden philosophical paradigm shift by reading a scrap of cardboard hidden in a box?

 

For those of you that are in favor of removing the tracts because they promote an agenda, are you not also promoting your agenda by removing them?

 

Nope, not at all. I'm simply stopping this person from promoting theirs. If I was going to promote my agenda, I'd be leaving my own tracts on subjects near and dear to my own heart. I don't do that. The absence of religious / philosophical / political tracts in a cache is not an agenda, it is the absence of agenda! So yes, if you can call the absence of agenda an agenda, that's my agenda.

 

Didn't mean to start any kind of religious debate here, guys. I was really just curious if this was a widespread phenomenon, or a local one (guess I should have known the answer to that). If this thread degenerates into a disrespectful discussion of religion, I don't want the blame for that!

 

Joe

 

Edit: darn HTML tags...

Edited January 22, 2006 by Stearmandriver

[+cachew nut]

Don't sweat it CN, you're still on my 'must read' list of posters.

Likewise.

[+Renegade Knight]

....Nope, not at all.  I'm simply stopping this person from promoting theirs.  If I was going to promote my agenda, I'd be leaving my own tracts on subjects near and dear to my own heart....

You have half the picture. Suppression of other competing views is in and of itself the promotion of an agenda in two ways. First you have an agenda that views that the other persons agenda as something you don’t like and don’t want to see them express. Second you are in favor of one or more remaining agendas because by the removal of a specific viewpoint you are making the viewpoints you allow to remain more prominant.

 

You don't have to pitch signs and leave tracts to promote your own agenda. You did it when you started this thread and I have no doubt you do it in many other ways.

Edited January 22, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+El Diablo]

 

Didn't mean to start any kind of religious debate here, guys.

It's wide known that there are two topics that you never bring up in a social situation, Politics and religion. Throughout the centuries millions have died defending both.

 

By opening this topic you invited points of view and set into motion a debate that will have no good outcome. These types of discussions have a habit of dividing people and that is not what these fourms are about.

 

El Diablo

[+poperszky]

Well now, this looks like the place to ask a question. I lead a teen youth group at Church, and I have introduced them to the joys of caching, complete with the idea of planting their own on Church property (Large wooded lot). In stead of tracts, I am urging them to find objects with religious significance, and that would be actractive to families with children since this will be an easy cache. Two of the items are stuffed bears holding an bible, and a Jesus loves you bouncing ball. There is a two fold purpose in this exercise: 1. Team building 2. Thinking outside the box about their faith and ways to share it with others.

 

May I have your opinions and suggestions since I am a neophyte myself?

 

Terry

[+Team Cotati]

 

Didn't mean to start any kind of religious debate here, guys.

It's wide known that there are two topics that you never bring up in a social situation, Politics and religion. Throughout the centuries millions have died defending both.

 

By opening this topic you invited points of view and set into motion a debate that will have no good outcome. These types of discussions have a habit of dividing people and that is not what these fourms are about.

 

El Diablo

Three, with sex being the third.

[+Sagefox]

What new can be said here? For me I don't really think it is a matter of establishing a fixed policy for removing political, religious or commercial materials and always taking action consistent with that policy. I don't cache like that. Some days that stuff p.o.'s me and I remove it and sometimes it doesn't and I don't. Sometimes I add something when I do remove it and sometimes I don't.

 

Most stuff people place in caches is seldom valuable and, almost always, it won't be missed if it is removed whether or not you trade "up" for it or leave nothing.

 

We each, individually, decide what to do at each cache we visit. Some times things of little value get removed and nothing is left in its place and sometimes things of value are added and nothing is removed. If the cache is cleaner, dryer and a bit neater when we leave then we did a good job.

[+Sagefox]

Well now, this looks like the place to ask a question. I lead a teen youth group at Church, and I have introduced them to the joys of caching, complete with the idea of planting their own on Church property (Large wooded lot). In stead of tracts, I am urging them to find objects with religious significance, and that would be actractive to families with children since this will be an easy cache. Two of the items are stuffed bears holding an bible, and a Jesus loves you bouncing ball. There is a two fold purpose in this exercise: 1. Team building 2. Thinking outside the box about their faith and ways to share it with others.

 

May I have your opinions and suggestions since I am a neophyte myself?

 

Terry

If it is the youth group's cache, whether or not on church property, then I think they should feel perfectly comfortable placing religious items in their cache. It would be best, and consistent with their purpose, if the cache page has at least a brief comment stating that it was placed by a church youth group. Visitors will then be able to anticipate religious materials.

 

It might be less well received if they overwhelm most of the local caches with religious materials.

 

I always like the idea of caches placed by kids no matter what they put in them.

[+Beffums]

Well now, this looks like the place to ask a question. I lead a teen youth group at Church, and I have introduced them to the joys of caching, complete with the idea of planting their own on Church property (Large wooded lot). In stead of tracts, I am urging them to find objects with religious significance, and that would be actractive to families with children since this will be an easy cache. Two of the items are stuffed bears holding an bible, and a Jesus loves you bouncing ball. There is a two fold purpose in this exercise: 1. Team building 2. Thinking outside the box about their faith and ways to share it with others.

 

May I have your opinions and suggestions since I am a neophyte myself?

 

Terry

I think that's a perfectly valid idea for a cache.

 

I think the original issue was caches that are OVER-filled with tracts. Caches that are OVERfilled with any one item are a problem (maybe with the exceptions of seed caches and ones filled with CITO kits, but I'm betting that someone is offended even by these). I believe that most cache owners hope for some level of variety in their caches, even if it's a theme cache. As such, if there are so many pieces of one thing that you can't fit in a new item, trade out, and discretely dispose of the item later if you do not want it. Don't trash all of what's in there, but I think it is ok, if you open a cache, and it has 100 of the same pamphlet, to say that 3 or 4 would be plenty to leave behind.

 

as to the original question - you are not alone. I've also found caches that are filled to the brim all with a pamphlet promoting something. Some were religious, some were not. My decision on what to do varied. If I wanted to leave something in the cache, and it fit, I generally left it all there. If there was so much that I couldn't close the cache without removing some, I removed some (even if I didn't trade in. what's the value of a cache left open to the elements?). I've never removed all, but that is your decision (how many are "equal" in value to what you left in trade?) I've yet to come across a cache where the pamphlets were wet, etc, but in that case, I would remove all as trash, as I would any items in any cache that had been destroyed by the elements. Then again, even in that case, I'd probably try to leave some trade items in return. (then again, my logs are often the "took nothing, left ___" variety)

[+Sue Gremlin]

I'm with Briansnat. I am delighted to find a Chick tract in a cache and will trade for them, we have found two so far. That's some really good crazy.

(Oooh, was that politically incorrect? Sorry). Anyway. Doesn't bother me, I would probably prune a little if there were like fifty of them just to make room if the cache was full, (same goes for nonreligious literature), but otherwise, it's not up to me, it's up to the cache owner to make that decision.

 

If it were my cache, I would remove all of those things plus dirty/broken things and business cards. But that's just me.

[+Sue Gremlin]

Well now, this looks like the place to ask a question. I lead a teen youth group at Church, and I have introduced them to the joys of caching, complete with the idea of planting their own on Church property (Large wooded lot). In stead of tracts, I am urging them to find objects with religious significance, and that would be actractive to families with children since this will be an easy cache. Two of the items are stuffed bears holding an bible, and a Jesus loves you bouncing ball. There is a two fold purpose in this exercise: 1. Team building 2. Thinking outside the box about their faith and ways to share it with others.

 

May I have your opinions and suggestions since I am a neophyte myself?

 

Terry

I think that's a perfectly valid idea for a cache.

Word.

I think that cache page could be great to write. I hope you do it.

[+Confucius' Cat]

This is obviously a Catholic site and is no doubt revered by many. It looks like a neat place. Someone (probably many people) put a lot of work and time into making it for other people to enjoy.

This not a catholic site. It was private farmland and a christian (protestant) group decided to erect this cross a few years ago.

The "stations of the cross" was obviously seen in the gallery pix. I've never heard of "the stations of the cross" except in Catholicism, therefore I assumed it to be Catholic.

 

Regardless, it is still a legitimate cache site.

 

I fail to see why the very presence of religion offends people who are quite sure that god does not exist. If God does not, in fact, exist then religion is irrelevant. Why should anyone be offended by nothing?

 

I think the OP question has been beat to death here. Lets see if I can summarize (I am sure MY summary will be acceptable to NOONE)

 

1. A few religious tracts in a cache is OK

2. A cache full of them is full of trash

3. A cache full of ANYTHING is basically full of trash in most instances

4. Religion offends people- especially those who are "secure" in their beliefs (go figure)

5. Athiesism is the ism most vehemently SHOVING their agenda down people throats by attempting to shush all religious expression

 

So the best solution when you encounter a cache full of religious propaganda is to take the cache and trade evenly for it with a film can and a piece of paper (leave a $5 bill for the value of the box if and only if it was an ammo can) Gladware is more than evenly traded for with a film can, provided you got the film can free at Wal-Mart. Now THAT will keep them from putting out their religious drivel!

 

So there

[+Alan2]

I don't normally trade but it's not my business if and what others trade.

[Hugh Jazz]

5. Athiesism is the ism most vehemently SHOVING their agenda down people throats by attempting to shush all religious expression

Oh please. Give the atheist-bashing a break. Religions are always co-opting governments and using the power of government to shove their beliefs on everyone else.

 

Don't believe that? Pull out your wallet and look on every dollar bill and coin.

 

However if you are going to stuff caches with 'religious tracts' of this particular type, please send me the GC# so I can go make some trades.

[+TotemLake]

....Nope, not at all.  I'm simply stopping this person from promoting theirs.  If I was going to promote my agenda, I'd be leaving my own tracts on subjects near and dear to my own heart....

You have half the picture. Suppression of other competing views is in and of itself the promotion of an agenda in two ways. First you have an agenda that views that the other persons agenda as something you don’t like and don’t want to see them express. Second you are in favor of one or more remaining agendas because by the removal of a specific viewpoint you are making the viewpoints you allow to remain more prominant.

 

You don't have to pitch signs and leave tracts to promote your own agenda. You did it when you started this thread and I have no doubt you do it in many other ways.

Nicely put. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[nobby.nobbs]

just ignore it.

 

not a problem as far as i'm concerned unless they have been stuffed in to take up all the space. in which case i might remove any duplicates and recycle them not trash them.

not my place to decide what reading material should be left as long as it's not porn etc.

quick note to the cache owner for them to decide maybe.

[+Confucius' Cat]

leaving a piece of paper gives someone an OPTION of looking at it and deciding if it matters to them.

 

Removing a paper FORCES the next person NOT to consider what was written on it.

 

Please send me all those evil papers you got in YOUR wallet, I wouldn't want your mind corrupted by that religious drivel.

 

(Added next)

Edited January 22, 2006 by Confuse-A-Cat

[Hugh Jazz]

This is pretty funny. The whole point of this thread is that religious folks are stuffing caches with religious propaganda, and what should or shouldn't be done about it. We've all seen it, it happens fairly often, depending on what part of the bible belt you live in.

 

And this isn't the first time this particular subject has come up, and it usually goes on for many pages when it does.

 

I know the forum search feature is broken but how many threads have we had where someone complained about all the godless heathens who were stuffing Atheist propaganda in caches?

 

 

 

 

Someone Markwell me. I'll wait right here...

Edited January 22, 2006 by Hugh Jazz

[+Confucius' Cat]

they don't stuff, just remove.

 

so to recap:

 

Offering materials that promote an agenda = BAD

 

Removing other people's materials to promote an agenda = GOOD

 

I understand fully.

[Hugh Jazz]

So anytime you encounter a cache with absolutely no religious materials in it, you can curse those d****d Atheists and their agenda!

 

OK I get it now.

 

 

 

So I'm still waiting for that Markwell about all the Atheists stuffing their propaganda into caches... Gonna be waiting a looooong time I figure...

 

BTW Like the new geo-nick, Confuse-a-Cat. Gotta find your 'new name' thread and see where that came from.

Edited January 22, 2006 by Hugh Jazz

[+El Diablo]

I've found 96 caches...I know cachers with thousands of finds and I've never heard of a cache being stuffed with tracts. Can the OP give us a link to the caches in question? I would be interested to see if other finders had the same problem.

 

El diablo

[+Team Cotati]

I believe that it is the sole responsibility of the cache owner to make all decisions wrt the contents of his cache(s) unless there are obvious dangerous items discovered. Then and only then the finder of such materials must make his/her own determination if they wish to take the responsibility for the removal of such material.

 

Other than that very narrow exception, a finder who encounters 'offensive' non-dangerous material in a cache has no business removing one single bit of it, period. The only time that this would be permissible would be that if the cache owner had been notified by some finder of the presence of such 'offensive' material and then posted a note on the cache listing making it crystal clear that he wanted subsequent finders to remove some or all of said material.

 

Optimally of course, the cache owner would personally visit his cache after being notified of the presence of some type of 'questionable' or 'offensive' material.

 

Other wise visitors to the owner's cache ought to not get overly exercised about the contents of any cache. The term 'busy-body' comes to mind.

Edited January 22, 2006 by Team Cotati

[+mahgnillig]

One is okay, even two maybe. If it's someone's signature item then that's okay too. It sounds like the OP is complaining because one particular group of people has been stuffing caches full of numerous religious pamphlets. I feel the same way about that as if they were numerous takeaway menus, political messages or advertisements for porn. Caches are not the place for advertisements, no matter what you're advertising, and no matter how noble your intentions. Personally I'd remove all but a couple and recycle them.

 

- Jen.

Edited January 22, 2006 by mahgnillig

[Jeremy]

There's not a whole lot you can do about it. Let it go.

[+Team Cotati]

There's not a whole lot you can do about it. Let it go.

Thank you Jeremy.

[+Byron & Anne]

One wonders what the reaction would be to a bunch of fliers advertising something other than religion. Would it be the same? How about a bunch of fliers advtising the local adult store?

 

I think advertising, whether it be for a particular flavor of religion or the for the local burger shop probably doesn't belong in a cache.

 

Just my $.02 worth.

[ju66l3r]

5. Athiesism is the ism most vehemently SHOVING their agenda down people throats by attempting to shush all religious expression

Simply not true.

 

Athiestic fundamentalists or ardent athiests may shove agenda (no more or less than a catholic or muslim fundamentalist does)..but Atheism itself doesn't have an agenda, it's simply the belief that there isn't a God(s).

 

The problem that I have with the tracts is that they *are* a self-centered attempt to "shove" an agenda at people. They're only purpose is to preach at people (notice I said AT and not TO). And if we're discussing Chick Tracts, in particular, (the most found tract I've seen) then we're really getting into a world of misrepresentation of the other side of the "argument" (aka Straw Man Logical Flaw) and somewhat absurd, bordering on offensive, language.

 

Other people of the same faith don't need the evangelism of a tract to believe what it says. They serve to "witness" non-believers with their message and that's an offensive idea when I'm trying to have fun geocaching and not open a jack-in-the-box of ideology.

 

Who am I to decide that the next person shouldn't have to deal with it? Who are you to decide the next person should?

 

And *again* I state, that if I trade out for it, then it's mine to do with as I please anyways...and I'll throw them away every time.

[adampierson]

I can't believe people are having such a big hissy fit over TRACTS!!!

 

You guys sound like these are WORSE than broken toys, knives, fireworks.. or *GASP* business cards!!!!

 

This is no different than trading items promoting other things in life, like the Sorpranos, The "L" word, Dominoe's Pizza, or any other enterprise. Most of us wouldn't blink an eye seeing swag promoting any of these things...

 

If you have a personal beef about trade items TOUGH TOENAILS!!!

 

Funny for a bunch of people who consider themselves "tolerant" they can be so worked up to appear intolerant of something like religeon.

 

Can you say "HYPOCRITE"? You know who you all are...

 

[+piscatore]

Wish I could figure out how to promote an agnostic agenda, but apathy on the subject of religion just doesn't seem worth arguing about.

[+budd-rdc]

People can enforce the "separation of Church and State" by making sure religious pamphlets are not sharing the same container as political pamphlets. I'm sure trading one for another would be perfectly suitable.

 

For people who are putting them in caches, I hope they are considerate enough to just place a few as not to crowd the container, or their "recruiting" intent will backfire - I doubt they are doing this to preach to the choir. And who knows, maybe someone's doing this just to irritate people since it's a well known method to incite conflict (as shown by heated religious discussions in almost any medium).

 

Personally, I just ignore them - it might take too much space in my CITO bag, as there are more worthwhile stuff to recycle while caching.

[Stearmandriver]

....Nope, not at all.  I'm simply stopping this person from promoting theirs.  If I was going to promote my agenda, I'd be leaving my own tracts on subjects near and dear to my own heart....

You have half the picture. Suppression of other competing views is in and of itself the promotion of an agenda in two ways. First you have an agenda that views that the other persons agenda as something you don’t like and don’t want to see them express. Second you are in favor of one or more remaining agendas because by the removal of a specific viewpoint you are making the viewpoints you allow to remain more prominant.

 

You don't have to pitch signs and leave tracts to promote your own agenda. You did it when you started this thread and I have no doubt you do it in many other ways.

Honestly, where is the annoyance coming from here? Dude, I asked a question. I asked so if I see this again (which seems likely) I'll have an idea what the accepted course of action is. Someone was good enough to point out that the caching guidelines (which I should have checked before posting here) already adress this - pushing any agenda with a cache is a no-no. Question answered. But, what "agenda" could I possibly have been trying to promote here?

 

Now (and completely unrelated to the original post), since you've chosen to get a little snippy here for some reason, let me tell ya a couple things:

 

First, from an argumentative viewpoint, your logic is flawed in the above quote. You state an opinion as fact, when it is not. Picture this situation as a sliding scale, with the center being neutrality - what we're shooting for in this case. If someone artificially skews things to one side, a return to neutrality is not at all promotion of the opposite agenda. It is merely a return to neutrality. There's actually a classical philosophical debating point that states exactly this - I can't remember what it's called off-hand, but it's clear-cut. Just the way it is.

 

Second, you'd be wise not to accuse people you know nothing about of something as serious as suppression of others' views. As it turns out, you couldn't be more off-base here. I've volunteered more than once on campaigns fighting for the right to express a viewpoint I personally didn't agree with. I'm all about personal freedoms, right up to the point where they start impinging on someone else's freedom. (That's not a commentary on the original topic, just a general observation about me.) I'd really love to know how else I promote my own agendas, since you seem to think you know so much about me and "have no doubt I do it in many other ways".

 

Ya know, I briefly wondered as I was starting this topic if it was a good idea. I've heard the old saw about not talking religion or politics in polite conversation, but never put much stock in it myself. We're a civilized people - which means we should be able to discuss anything civilly. If we can't that's something we need to know about ourselves, so we can work on it.

 

One is okay, even two maybe. If it's someone's signature item then that's okay too. It sounds like the OP is complaining because one particular group of people has been stuffing caches full of numerous religious pamphlets.

 

Thanks, Mahgnillig. Just to clarify for the others again, though: I wasn't complaining. I was just... asking.

 

El Diablo, I could look up the caches, but I can answer your question now: the logs don't say anything about it. I looked myself when I logged my finds, out of curiosity. No one else mentioned it in their logs so I didn't either.

 

Hey, I learned something out of all this anyway: Chick Tracts! What a perfect commentary on the shortening attention span of the modern world! Honestly, I thought they might have been feminist literature at first, though the name seemed odd in that case, so I had to look it up.

[Stearmandriver]

Well now, this looks like the place to ask a question. I lead a teen youth group at Church, and I have introduced them to the joys of caching, complete with the idea of planting their own on Church property (Large wooded lot). In stead of tracts, I am urging them to find objects with religious significance, and that would be actractive to families with children since this will be an easy cache. Two of the items are stuffed bears holding an bible, and a Jesus loves you bouncing ball. There is a two fold purpose in this exercise: 1. Team building 2. Thinking outside the box about their faith and ways to share it with others.

 

May I have your opinions and suggestions since I am a neophyte myself?

 

Terry

Lest people think I'm some neo-athiest after all this, I just wanted to offer my two cents on this too, Terry. Sounds great to me! A religious-themed cache on Church property makes perfect sense, it'd be a fun cache for people to find, and most importantly of course, it sounds like a great exercise for the kids. Have fun with it!

 

Joe

[+briansnat]

Well now, this looks like the place to ask a question. I lead a teen youth group at Church, and I have introduced them to the joys of caching, complete with the idea of planting their own on Church property (Large wooded lot). In stead of tracts, I am urging them to find objects with religious significance, and that would be actractive to families with children since this will be an easy cache. Two of the items are stuffed bears holding an bible, and a Jesus loves you bouncing ball. There is a two fold purpose in this exercise: 1. Team building 2. Thinking outside the box about their faith and ways to share it with others.

 

May I have your opinions and suggestions since I am a neophyte myself?

 

Terry

Lest people think I'm some neo-athiest after all this, I just wanted to offer my two cents on this too, Terry. Sounds great to me! A religious-themed cache on Church property makes perfect sense, it'd be a fun cache for people to find, and most importantly of course, it sounds like a great exercise for the kids. Have fun with it!

 

Joe

I disagree. Geocaches are not supposed to be vehicles to "share your faith". As I said earlier I do not object to people leaving religious tracts or religious items in caches (as long as they don't overdo it), but when you place a cache you are not supposed to be promoting an agenda. Sharing your faith is an agenda.

[+Alan2]

I haven't seen too many tracts stuffing caches since I started. But then again I come from a Red state.

[+SKYCOP]

May I please step in and say that all of us here loved to GeoCache before this thread came up and we all will continue to love to GeoCache long after this thread is old news. With that said, I will put my avtar to use....."OK people, nothing else here to see, let's move on, everyone just use some COMMON SENSE"

[docdigit]

I want to state that I agree with the majority of posts here that leaving one or two tracts in a cache would be fine (they may be viewed as a signature item.) The motivation behind stuffing a cache with them, in my own opinion, is cowardice as they are supposed to be handing these things to people so that they can talk about them (not stuffing them in a box somewhere.)

I probably share the same faith as some of these people, but I would NEVER simply trash a cache (which this, in essence, is) to do something that these things weren't even intended for in the first place (did that make sense?)!

This person's perspective, you have the right (duty?) to keep your cache clean. As was stated earlier, if I came along and stuffed your cached with something else (say with my signature cards) what would you do?

 

Doc

[+cacheKidds]

....Nope, not at all.  I'm simply stopping this person from promoting theirs.  If I was going to promote my agenda, I'd be leaving my own tracts on subjects near and dear to my own heart....

You have half the picture. Suppression of other competing views is in and of itself the promotion of an agenda in two ways. First you have an agenda that views that the other persons agenda as something you don’t like and don’t want to see them express. Second you are in favor of one or more remaining agendas because by the removal of a specific viewpoint you are making the viewpoints you allow to remain more prominant.

 

You don't have to pitch signs and leave tracts to promote your own agenda. You did it when you started this thread and I have no doubt you do it in many other ways.

Great post, RK.

[Jeremy]

The agenda of geocaching is to have no agenda. It'd be nice to have a place where people aren't shouting agendas all day long. But that's just a pipe dream.

 

An absence of a tract from a cache is not a statement. If the person left a note saying "there was a tract here but I took it because ..." it would be a statement, or posting here about it would be a statement, or posting it in a log entry would be a statement. But anonymous removal of religious tracts from caches doesn't give anyone a message if they don't know why you did it. They may even think they converted another unbeliever.

 

This animosity towards religion is tiring, as well as the attack on religion whinging. Aren't there other sites where you can complain about your religious rights? This doesn't seem to be the place for it.

[+Confucius' Cat]

An absence of a tract from a cache is not a statement.

 

If the tract was there and subsequently was removed by someone For the purpose of denying someone else the opportunity to read it then there IS an agenda (although perhaps technically not a "statement").

 

If it was removed because it was keeping the lid from closing, then there was no agenda (other than wanting a clean, dry cache).

 

Sorry Jeremy. This will be my last post on this, but I think Jazz is requesting a response.

 

 

 

So I'm still waiting for that Markwell about all the Atheists stuffing their propaganda into caches... Gonna be waiting a looooong time I figure...

 

I agree completely.

 

Although I never have really looked for them, I have no doubt that few if any such propaganda items actually exist.

 

As I have stated sevral times ad nauseum, the athiest "cause" (apparently "agenda" is not the right word) is best, most easily, and most often advanced by suppression of opposing opinions. This has been the case with nearly all the "big wins" of atheism in this country. The procedure is simply to find a person who allegedly takes offence, a lawyer, and a sympathetic judge. "Big win" accomplished. No debate needed.

 

Simply put, atheism has nothing to offer philosophically. It is like a vacuum- because it is nothing, an argument could be made that it does not even exist. Atheism is by common sense definition belief in nothing.

 

What is Atheism's contribution to the meaning of life? What is Atheism's contribution to quality of life?

 

All the philosophical arguments of atheism can be utterly destroyed with one word:

 

DEATH

 

 

Keep waiting, I'm sure you'll get that Markwell

[+Byron & Anne]

neophyte myself?

 

Terry

Lest people think I'm some neo-athiest after all this, I just wanted to offer my two cents on this too, Terry. Sounds great to me! A religious-themed cache on Church property makes perfect sense, it'd be a fun cache for people to find, and most importantly of course, it sounds like a great exercise for the kids. Have fun with it!

 

Joe

Why should a "religious" themed cache be any more acceptable than an "adult" themed cache?

[+Sagefox]

If the tract was there and subsequently was removed by someone For the purpose of denying someone else the opportunity to read it then there IS an agenda (although perhaps technically not a "statement").

I have often removed religious, commercial and porn materials from caches. Porn always, religious and commercial not always. My purpose has NEVER been to deny future finders the opportunity to read it. I just don't think these materials belong in caches.

 

I don't think my actions are any worse than those cachers who believe things of some value don't belong in caches and so they replace them with things of no value.

 

We are all cache maintainers as we move about our business. If we weren't the sorry condition we find at half (or more) of the containers we find would be twice as bad as it is.

[+sbell111]

Why should a "religious" themed cache be any more acceptable than an "adult" themed cache?

I haven't been rereading this thread, because its just rehash so forgive me if I missed something. That being said, are you serious?

[+Renegade Knight]

Post Deleted due to discustionss of Sex, Politics, and Religion.

Edited January 22, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+Sagefox]

A religious-themed cache on Church property makes perfect sense, it'd be a fun cache for people to find, and most importantly of course, it sounds like a great exercise for the kids. Have fun with it!

 

Joe

I disagree. Geocaches are not supposed to be vehicles to "share your faith". As I said earlier I do not object to people leaving religious tracts or religious items in caches (as long as they don't overdo it), but when you place a cache you are not supposed to be promoting an agenda. Sharing your faith is an agenda.

While logic trys to tell me that bsnat is right I just can't find a problem with a themed cache where the theme is not inappropriate for a family sport. With a themed cache you know before you visit what to expect (unless you read your pda after you arrive - then you got no complaint). A church theme, a political theme, even a theme of McD's toys would not bother me.

[Mr.Yuck]

 

Didn't mean to start any kind of religious debate here, guys.

It's wide known that there are two topics that you never bring up in a social situation, Politics and religion. Throughout the centuries millions have died defending both.

 

By opening this topic you invited points of view and set into motion a debate that will have no good outcome. These types of discussions have a habit of dividing people and that is not what these fourms are about.

 

El Diablo

Agreed, Politics and Religion. Be very careful though, This user may be watching this thread. I'll bet you did't know he was from the Binghamton, N.Y. area

[+tozainamboku]

I have found several caches chuck full of paper that promoted or advertise one thing or another. I remember how disappointed I was to find one that was filled with flyers from a studio promoting a soon to be released motion picture. There weren't even discount coupons!. I found another where it appeared the business gave permission for a cache to be hidden in their parking lot in exchange for filling the cache with their business cards. I don't understand why everytime this topic come up it ends up in a debate about religion. There is a more basic question being asked abou what is okay to leave as swag in a cache. Books? Maps? Discount Coupons? Horoscopes? Fortunes from fortune cookies?

Edited January 22, 2006 by tozainamboku

[+daiichi]

5.  Athiesism is the ism most vehemently SHOVING their agenda down people throats by attempting to shush all religious expression

Oh please. Give the atheist-bashing a break. Religions are always co-opting governments and using the power of government to shove their beliefs on everyone else.

 

Don't believe that? Pull out your wallet and look on every dollar bill and coin.

 

However if you are going to stuff caches with 'religious tracts' of this particular type, please send me the GC# so I can go make some trades.

Atheism is a belief--a belief that there is no God. The worst thing is that some atheists believe this so vehemently that they cannot tolerate anyone who DOES believe that there is a God.

 

I certainly believe in free speech as long as it does not attack another group or individual. Placing a tract into a cache is fine since, to some, it can be perceived as being of value. For those who don't think it has value, well, don't trade for it.

 

STUFFING a cache full of tracts is bad form... but stuffing a cache full of anything is generally bad form. How would you like to open a cache and find nothing but playing cards in it?

 

I had presented to a friend of mine a position to handle social, political, and religious groups who wanted to attend city functions: be tolerant and let them as long was what they are displaying does not directly attack other individuals or groups. Anti-abortion groups? Let them--but don't let them show posters of aborted fetuses since that could be harmful to minors (just as showing live autopsy pictures would be inappropriate). Christian groups? Sure let them--but don't let them post a sign saying "You unbelievers are going to hell" because such as sign is a verbal assault on others.

 

I think the same thought can be applied to SWAGs. A tract that promotes a belief does not attack another individual--unless that individual is an intolerant SOB. And the reason this thread has gone on so long is that apparently there are a bunch of intolerant cachers out there.

[Hugh Jazz]

...Still waiting for that markwell for the topics about all the caches being stuffed with atheist propaganda.