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New Geocoin Policy

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I think part of the issue is the near total reversal of previous guidelines regarding commercialism in the forums.

 

It used to be that anyone could directly sell their personal coins here regardless of trackability, but commercial coins, charity, and links to most commercial sales sites were not welcome.

 

Now, only gc trackable coins (personal, organization, charity, pure commercial, etc) are allowed to be sold here, and a link to any commercial sales site (going directly to that coins listing) is allowed.

 

Of course I find it hard to see how a link to a coin being sold is NOT a direct solicitation for sales at that particular site (which is banned)

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We are talking about individual geocachers announcing their sig items on gc.com forums and you will not allow it beacuase you didn't get your EXTRA share. GREED....plain and simple.

Aren't signature items meant to be put in caches? Or are you speaking of individual GREED here? If it was so innocent they would be happy to sell them at cost, right?

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It used to be that anyone could directly sell their personal coins here regardless of trackability, but commercial coins, charity, and links to most commercial sales sites were not welcome.

Actually there has been no official guidelines for the forum. We're attempting to accomodate those who wish to sell their trackable coins. Initially we were going to deter all sales from the forums but accepted that people do like to sell them here.

 

As a side note the GPS Garage sale forum has been around for a looong time. Commercialism still remains harnessed in to that forum and this one.

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We are talking about individual geocachers announcing their sig items on gc.com forums and you will not allow it beacuase you didn't get your EXTRA share.  GREED....plain and simple.

Aren't signature items meant to be put in caches? Or are you speaking of individual GREED here? If it was so innocent they would be happy to sell them at cost, right?

Did you actually read nicolos post? More often than not geocachers sell some of their sig items to offset the cost involved. This also allow cachers from all over the world to collect that sig item.

Edited by FishPOET

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OK but what about my case. I have 150 coins almost in the hopper. I CAN trade all 150 but would like to reserve 40 to sell ( 1 or 2 per person ) to new coin traders who don't have a coin collection built up.

 

Can this crack like get filled in?

 

p.s. I see the above post re: coins getting produced prior to this new policy. However, I don't have them made yet, I have the quote and am waiting for payment method.

Follow up with me via a PM. We'll work something out.

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More often than not geocachers sell some of their sig items to offset the cost involved.

If people want others to pay for their sig items it is not considered "at cost." I am reading the posts and selling x number of coins so you can have your coins for free imeans you are profiting from the sales of the geocoins.

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We are talking about individual geocachers announcing their sig items on gc.com forums and you will not allow it beacuase you didn't get your EXTRA share.  GREED....plain and simple.

Aren't signature items meant to be put in caches? Or are you speaking of individual GREED here? If it was so innocent they would be happy to sell them at cost, right?

Can a cacher who is making a personal coin solicit sales, at-cost in order to enable the minting of their coin?

 

I understand the anti-mooching policy, and see that it is essential, but I think that with the moderators and the "report" button we can all work to prevent the commercial coin producers from getting a free ride without preventing the average cacher from getting some help in paying for the minting of their personal coin that they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford.

 

edit: I would like to get an answer, but was typing while the last 1/2 dozen replies rolled in.

Edited by pdxmarathonman

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I have personnaly dropped over 2000 nontrackable FishPOET geocoins in caches. I have never sold a single one. As of today with your new policy, if I chose to sell a few and announce it on your forum, your moderators would delete my post.

 

Yes I am mad.

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Can a cacher who is making a personal coin solicit sales, at-cost in order to enable the minting of their coin?

I really don't think there is a clear way to determine this, nor do we have time on our hands to audit each and every non-trackable coin sale. Adding a cost to making the items trackable is a good workable solution.

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More often than not geocachers sell some of their sig items to offset the cost involved.

If people want others to pay for their sig items it is not considered "at cost." I am reading the posts and selling x number of coins so you can have your coins for free imeans you are profiting from the sales of the geocoins.

I suppose that scenario is valid. It is hard to tell when the coinmaker is paying nothing or when they're paying the same per coin as those that are buying their coin.

 

As long as I can continue to sell my 5 remaining coins for charity and advertise here, I'll be happy.

 

edit to say that I disagree with the "more often than not..." aspect of the original comment

Edited by pdxmarathonman

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Can a cacher who is making a personal coin solicit sales, at-cost in order to enable the minting of their coin?

Yes, if it is trackable.

Can't those folks get what the market will bear?

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Whew,

It took a long time to read all of this. I saw this before I went to work and thought about it all day.I have been working on new cache series and thought about it while scouting a couple new locations.

I am disappointed in the new guidelines As I stated earlier it seems fair but commercial.I have a personal non trackable coin that has been ordered, paid for, and is in production as I write this.The thread is now buried some where and I intended to let it lay until my coins arrived.At that time I hoped to offer for sale or trade the 50-75 coins remaining.I hope the exception noted above will allow me to do so.

I hope that Groundspeak will reconsider this policy.Personal coins are a big part of the overall success of trackable coins and I would imagine have provided GC.com with a nice new source of revenue.I understand that non trackable coins do not contribute financially but they do provide a large part of the base level that supports geocoins as a whole.Please do not force us to find other forums.We like it here. We spend a lot of time here. If one of the moderators could email me directly about my coin I would appreciate it.This thread is busy

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Here's what I don't get:

 

Some of you are willing to pay $3.00/month just to have your coins listed on a coin trading site and think that's OK, but having to pay to sell them here is not?

 

And the rationale behind this is.....???

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Yes I am mad.

Change can be painful sometimes.

And that attitude of yours is why this customer is leaving. I realize I am a small fish in the Groundspeak ocean, but if enough customers swim elsewhere TPTB might actually get the message.

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Whew,

It took a long time to read all of this. I saw this before I went to work and thought about it all day.I have been working on new cache series and thought about it while scouting a couple new locations.

I am disappointed in the new guidelines As I stated earlier it seems fair but commercial.I have a personal non trackable coin that has been ordered, paid for, and is in production as I write this.The thread is now buried some where and I intended to let it lay until my coins arrived.At that time I hoped to offer for sale or trade the 50-75 coins remaining.I hope the exception noted above will allow me to do so.

I hope that Groundspeak will reconsider this policy.Personal coins are a big part of the overall success of trackable coins and I would imagine have provided GC.com with a nice new source of revenue.I understand that non trackable coins do not contribute financially but they do provide a large part of the base level that supports geocoins as a whole.Please do not force us to find other forums.We like it here. We spend a lot of time here. If one of the moderators could email me directly about my coin I would appreciate it.This thread is busy

PM sent

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I love this. I really do.

 

Okay, picture that I hadn't yet created the SC coin when these new guidelines had gone into place. I then created the coin and it's not trackable on gc.com. Someone pipes up and asks if there is an SC coin. Folks can answer in the affirmative, but can't point anyone to where they may be purchased, traded, or tracked. It would be as if it didn't exist.

 

Do I have this right? I think I do.

 

Good job, Groundspeak.

Hmmm, but you chose to market and sell your coins through here?!?!

 

By the way, where are they?

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More often than not geocachers sell some of their sig items to offset the cost involved.

If people want others to pay for their sig items it is not considered "at cost." I am reading the posts and selling x number of coins so you can have your coins for free imeans you are profiting from the sales of the geocoins.

I suppose that scenario is valid. It is hard to tell when the coinmaker is paying nothing or when they're paying the same per coin as those that are buying their coin.

 

As long as I can continue to sell my 5 remaining coins for charity and advertise here, I'll be happy.

Anyone willing to post their $ info should be good to go.

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Here's what I don't get:

 

Some of you are willing to pay $3.00/month just to have your coins listed on a coin trading site and think that's OK, but having to pay to sell them here is not?

 

And the rationale behind this is.....???

36 bucks a year for all the coins you can handle vs. 2.00 or so (1.50 + The cost of engraving) for each coin...

 

But really I think it's principal. Regardless of the issue of this site or another, people needed a forum to discuss coins, coin issues, work out issues and frustrations, find trades, discuss ideas and announce sales etc. This site just clamped down on a big part of the reason people where here. The need isn't gone. Just this sites willingness to accomodate at least some of it.

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people needed a forum to discuss coins, coin issues, work out issues and frustrations, find trades, discuss ideas and announce sales etc

 

The way I read the rules you can still do all of those things. The change made to this forum isn't really that huge.

 

And maybe, if we come up with some constructive ideas for GS they will take a look at them. Simply bashing them (and I'm not talking about anyone specific) isn't going to get them to work with us.

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Here's what I don't get:

 

Some of you are willing to pay $3.00/month just to have your coins listed on a coin trading site and think that's OK, but having to pay to sell them here is not?

 

And the rationale behind this is.....???

Because the other sites have not pissed them off, thats why.

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Well, if we're all so upset about this new policy, lets do what people used to do instead of complain.. Let's boycott... I for one will not be putting on GC tracking numbers due to this new policy. If everyone or a lot of us decide to do this, it'll hopefully make a change. So, no more complaining, just a simple boycott...

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So basically, if they had been charging all along (like other sites do), it would be ok, it's them realizing that they were behind in the game that is ticking everyone off so?

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And maybe, if we come up with some constructive ideas for GS they will take a look at them. Simply bashing them (and I'm not talking about anyone specific) isn't going to get them to work with us.

I'm with you on this line of thought.

 

I'd hate to see the 3rd and 4th canine series coins not offered here. Yeah, I know you can email those who purchased before, but how does that help the influx of new collectors since then? It doesn't, which is a shame.

 

Same goes for those excellent Tiki coins!

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So, is the boycott for the geocoin forum or for all of geocaching, or just for making coins? I am soooo confused!

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So, is the boycott for the geocoin forum or for all of geocaching, or just for making coins? I am soooo confused!

The boycott is for the placing of tracking numbers on coins... If no one purchases tracking numbers because of this new rule, well I think you know...

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Hopefully AG we can rally the troops as the dust settles and try to give some good ideas to make this ever changing hobby grow in a good direction for the masses.

 

It seems awefully early to be boycotting and running off to other sites to me.

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Hopefully AG we can rally the troops as the dust settles and try to give some good ideas to make this ever changing hobby grow in a good direction for the masses.

 

It seems awefully early to be boycotting and running off to other sites to me.

Eh, they made a bad choice(in many people's minds)... We need to let them know that.

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So, is the boycott for the geocoin forum or for all of geocaching, or just for making coins?  I am soooo confused!

The boycott is for the placing of tracking numbers on coins... If no one purchases tracking numbers because of this new rule, well I think you know...

It will never work. Half the people who are into geocoins are purely into them because they ARE trackable and DO have a different icon. So the revenue source for Groundspeak will continue. And at the rate some folks put out a new coin, those that boycott won't even be missed. Seriously.

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Slumber, while I see where you're coming from, the problem is that tracking numbers are way too important to too many people for an effective boycott to happen (and I'm not sure that it would be effective in the end anyways). The states and orgs. will continue to pay, because the masses want the codes so they can have their little icons.

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Hopefully AG we can rally the troops as the dust settles and try to give some good ideas to make this ever changing hobby grow in a good direction for the masses.

 

It seems awefully early to be boycotting and running off to other sites to me.

Eh, they made a bad choice(in many people's minds)... We need to let them know that.

And some of us will. We'll just use another method to do so after the dust settles.

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Just my humble opinion, but I think given time and constructive alternatives instead of bashing, may eventually get things worked out to everyones satisfaction. (or close to it) In the beginning, this site was ok with everyone and their practices, now things have changed and we are willing to run? What is there that says the next site won't do something along the same lines eventually? Not trying to take sides, just my thoughts. I do stand by Groundspeak in their decision, but still hope that they may make concessions in the end. (but this is coming from someone who does not have a personal coin)

tdecell

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And that's the bad part... people whine about how horrible this new policy is, yet they still encourage the policy by buying coins with tracking numbers...

 

Personally, I just like coins that look cool, that I know the cacher, or is a unique coin... It's just sad that we're going to either see a drop in the number of coins available on this forum or we're going to see a drastic increase in the prices of coins.

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What has been surprising to me is to see how many have run off at the first sign of something they didn't like.

 

A lot of people are quick to judge and complain, but seem less than willing to offer anything constructive that might help the situation.

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I don't know if everyone is running off, maybe some, but I thinkmost people are looking for other outlets to get non-gc.com in addtion to getting the coins here. At least that is what I am looking for.

 

I am not sure that there is any middle ground on this policy of not allowing the sale of non trackable coins. I could be wrong. It is possible that too much has been said.

 

I am all for compromise. Somewhere there is a happy medium.

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I go to sleep and look what happens. I still cannot fathom the reason for the policy. The examples of using our dimes for your profit doesn't make sense to me at all.

 

Also boycotting tracking and Groundspeak also doesn't make sense.

 

The coin craze has evolved on this site. This site has benefitted from this evolution. Coin (Icon) Collectors have benefitted from Groundspeaks evolution with tracking and icons. I have benefitted by being able to see all the coins on offer so I could decide what to do with my money.

 

The new guidelines will not allow me to make informed decisions on what I am willing to do with my money. Any split in the coin community may see all the benefits to all the people wane.

 

The issue about personal coins that are not trackable needs to be looked at. The cost to Groundspeak is minimal. The coin community was already voting with its wallet. Groundspeak was benefitting. I am sure that would have continued.

 

I, and I assume all the other people in the coin community can look after each other and we don't really need a big brother to point out there may be sharks out there. The problem with the policy is that it splits the community and favours those same sharks.

 

If the community is going to boycott anything it needs to be the forum that restricts the continual evolution. Waiting for the dust to settle is also a cop out. The forum here needs to be open. Unless I have missed something. The guidelines can be changed again and as one wiseman put it the change may be painful but I am sure you can get over it.

 

If you don't understand the coin thing then how can you make guidelines to control it.

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Getting back to the Q/A I have some Qs.

I've read the linked guidelines, and this post by Roth. I understand that you cannon sell a non(gc)-trackable coin here. And that you cannot post a link to any commerical sites / advertise for other commerical sites. But can this forum be used for gathering ideas / advce for coins, input for coin designs, gauging interest? or does this depend on wither the coin is/will be gc.com trackable?

The guidelines post seems to apply to only selling and trading, not nessecerly creating making me thing it would ok for non-trackable coins up until the coin is ready for reservations/ordering. But the later post brings up the issue of bandwith/forum usage without (direct) benefit to Groundspeak, so maybe anything related to non-trackable coins is prohibited??

 

My other question is, how do the guidelines relate to the other forums (gc.com forums). The guidelines for this forum say these guidelines apply only here... If I can't sell my personal non-trackable coin here, can I sell them in the garage sale forum? I'm not a company/commerical venture, but does selling several on the same thing violate the garage sales forum guidelines about no business postings?

(no I don't have any coins of any sort, now or anytime in the planned future, I just think someone will try this and I want to know if its legit)

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I think that they under estimated the impact.I feel strongly that non trackable coins add to the overall fabric of the game and huge increase of trackable coins.I hope that the powers that be will see and hear and respond. I have been given approval(I think) to post my new coins for sale as planned because they are in production and that shows so flexibility.It seems to me they have embraced a commercial policy aimed at bringing more money to Groundspeak. I can probably sell coins on ebay for more than I can here but have chosen to post here to keep the cost reasonable for the buyer.

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Also boycotting tracking and Groundspeak also doesn't make sense.

 

The coin craze has evolved on this site. This site has benefitted from this evolution. Coin (Icon) Collectors have benefitted from Groundspeaks evolution with tracking and icons. I have benefitted by being able to see all the coins on offer so I could decide what to do with my money.

 

The new guidelines will not allow me to make informed decisions on what I am willing to do with my money. Any split in the coin community may see all the benefits to all the people wane.

 

The issue about personal coins that are not trackable needs to be looked at. The cost to Groundspeak is minimal. The coin community was already voting with its wallet. Groundspeak was benefitting. I am sure that would have continued.

 

I, and I assume all the other people in the coin community can look after each other and we don't really need a big brother to point out there may be sharks out there. The problem with the policy is that it splits the community and favours those same sharks.

 

If the community is going to boycott anything it needs to be the forum that restricts the continual evolution. Waiting for the dust to settle is also a cop out. The forum here needs to be open. Unless I have missed something. The guidelines can be changed again and as one wiseman put it the change may be painful but I am sure you can get over it.

 

If you don't understand the coin thing then how can you make guidelines to control it.

Ditto....absolute! :anitongue:

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Can a cacher who is making a personal coin solicit sales, at-cost in order to enable the minting of their coin?

I really don't think there is a clear way to determine this, nor do we have time on our hands to audit each and every non-trackable coin sale. Adding a cost to making the items trackable is a good workable solution.

So the whole point to the new rule is to try and get an extra $1650 (per 1000 coins) out of everyone?

Not that it matters to me since I doubt I will ever produce a non-trackable coin, but I'm just wondering if that was the thought process.

Edited by JMBella

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Also boycotting tracking and Groundspeak also doesn't make sense.

 

The coin craze has evolved on this site. This site has benefitted from this evolution. Coin (Icon) Collectors have benefitted from Groundspeaks evolution with tracking and icons. I have benefitted by being able to see all the coins on offer so I could decide what to do with my money.

This I don't understand... Boycotting would make a differance if we could get enough people to stand up and say "We're not going to take this". It will take money out of Groundspeaks pocket instead of adding to it like the new forum rules seem to be trying to do.

 

And were the first geocoins not trackable? Hmmm... Then Groundspeak saw the $ signs.

 

GS- No, you can't advertise, let anyone know, or sell your coin on our forum unless you produce it with tracking and add $1.50 per coin to our pockets.

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After thinking about this all day....

 

I will never make a untrackable coin again so the new rules don't bother me and I am sorry for the new people or people who can no longer sell their coins here. There are other sites so use those-no big deal.

 

The fact is very simple and plain. This is not our site, it is Jeremys and he can do whatever floats his boat. Am I going to stop geocaching? No. Am I gonna stop collecting coins? No. WIll I continue to make cool trackable coins? Yes.

 

Sorry to those caught in the middle and banned or whatever happend there, I don't know and don't want to. It's not my bus. and I for sure don't want it my problem. Things will also be changing and not everybodys gonna like, but that's everyday life.

 

Let the dust settle and give them a chance to hear what we have to say. Maybe somethings will be ment in the middle. I will go to the other forums because I still collect, but this is still my main source and "home".

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Also boycotting tracking and Groundspeak also doesn't make sense.

 

The coin craze has evolved on this site. This site has benefitted from this evolution. Coin (Icon) Collectors have benefitted from Groundspeaks evolution with tracking and icons. I have benefitted by being able to see all the coins on offer so I could decide what to do with my money.

This I don't understand... Boycotting would make a differance if we could get enough people to stand up and say "We're not going to take this". It will take money out of Groundspeaks pocket instead of adding to it like the new forum rules seem to be trying to do.

 

And were the first geocoins not trackable? Hmmm... Then Groundspeak saw the $ signs.

 

GS- No, you can't advertise, let anyone know, or sell your coin on our forum unless you produce it with tracking and add $1.50 per coin to our pockets.

You could never get enough people to stop paying the $1.50 and $150 to make it work. People are going to make the coins trackable, that's that.

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Yes I am mad.

Change can be painful sometimes.

I agree. It is human nature to resist change.

 

This too shall pass.

 

I have a bit of a different perspective right now. In the grand scheme of things, this is such a nothing issue, that it amazes me that so much negative energy is being wasted here. I consider a lot of the upset people here my personal friends, so please don't take offense at this.

 

Even if the current policy stands, do you really think we are all going to miss out on coins that are being released? How many coins have had "Secret" releases, and ended up being sold out before they were even announced on the forums?

 

Do you really think that we are all that unconnected that word will not spead. Sure, there will be other sites set up to sell personal coins. Some will make it, some won't. Let the market decide. The only one's at a disadvantage are going to be the new collectors. If you are not already in the "in-crowd", it will be harder to find out how to work the ropes. I am sure we can all come up with a good solution, (we means us collectors, and Groundspeak together).

 

Take a look at the "Sad News" thread. A cacher has died, and left behind a family. That is something to be upset and sad about. I try to keep it in perspective.

 

As a side note, I would like to tip my hat to you Jeremy. We have exchanged emails in the past, and I have enjoyed watching you debate in these forums in the past. However, sometimes, I have been put off when I feel you are being overly cavalier about a situation. You, and the rest of the admins have handled yourselves very admirably in this situation.

 

Thank you all for your time.

 

Dave

Cornerstone4

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Ok, I have some real questions pertaining to the new guidelines.

 

In the guidelines it states the following:

 

Posts made with the intention of soliciting customers to a coin selling, tracking, or manufacturing website will not be tolerated. Links to other commercial coin selling, coin tracking, coin trading and coin manufacturing web sites will be permitted only with permission from Groundspeak. Permission requests may be sent to bizdev (at) Groundspeak.com.

 

My question is the wording of this sentence. It says 'other' commercial coin selling, coin tracking, coin trading, and coin manufacturing web sites. It is my understanding that Groundspeak is not a commercial coin selling or coin manufacturing site, so why say 'other'. Shouldn't the sentence say -

 

Links to commercial coin selling, coin manufacturing, other coin tracking, or other coin trading web sites will be permitted only with permission from Groundspeak.

 

As for the other guidelines, I don't see a problem.

 

Just remember everybody, the geocoin was not originally created to be manufactured, sold, and kept in collections. They were meant as a sig item (trackable or not) and placed in caches (The heart of gc.com). This website is mainly about geocaching and using GPSr to find hidden containers in the public. The geocoin craze was getting, for lack of a better term, crazy! Groundspeak just decided that it was about time to harness some control over some items that effect their website and geocaching as a whole. The guidelines will not stop coins from being sold or traded, but they just won't be sold here unless they are trackable. Which means, unless you can put them in a cache (not a collection) and travel the globe thru caches while being tracked online thru the website as a coin option, then they will not be sold here.

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By the way.

 

Unless I read the guidelines wrong, I am very pleased with one outcome of the rule change.

 

Passing Wind and Caching Widow have comeup with a great design for the "Bikedog Memorial" geocoin. Since our plan, and Jerry's families wishes are to make this a trackable coin, it appears the new rules will work in our favor.

 

I was worried we would not be able to list the sale on this site, since we are selling them for a charitible cause. However, unless I missed something, we will now be able to sell this coin on this site, assuming we get approval of the design, and are able to get the tracking numbers.

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Well, if we're all so upset about this new policy, lets do what people used to do instead of complain.. Let's boycott... I for one will not be putting on GC tracking numbers due to this new policy. If everyone or a lot of us decide to do this, it'll hopefully make a change. So, no more complaining, just a simple boycott...

Historically, this is really funny. I was involved with the original California geocoin. We begged Groundspeak to allow us to add tracking numbers and they said no. Jeremy touches on some of the history of how the tracking number have slowly been allowed with greater and greater flexibility. Remember, they didn't even want to do this originally, but were eventually convinced to do so. Boycotting would just having them going back to their original idea, which was not allow any trackable geocoin besides Moun10Bike and USA. I don't think they will be all that upset.

 

--Marky

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