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Keystone

New Geocoin Policy

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3.  No, announcing that information on a coin is available on a different web site would be promoting the sales of the coin, in violation of the new policy.  A Geocoins For Sale yahoo group is fine.

Once again I'm hazy....

 

Can I announce the Hazards of Caching series of coins (which was announced before the new policy) is going to be available on a Hazards of Caching Yahoo group and direct them to the group or to Yahoo in general?

 

In other words can I say....

 

"The Hazards of Caching geocoin series will be available at the Hazards of Caching Geocoin group on yahoo.com. Please join that list for information. (insert image of the first coin here)"

 

Yes or no?

 

Frankly it's getting to tiresome to try to figure out what you can and can't do on the forums anymore. I'd rather open a yahoo group, forward people there and just have done with it.

If you make a new group, make a generic GeoCoins group that can be used for any announcements, not just the hazard announcement.

 

But of course, there are already a couple of other spots to announce new coins on, such as www.blahblahblah.com and www.yaddayaddayadda.com

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But of course, there are already a couple of other spots to announce new coins on, such as www.blahblahblah.com and www.yaddayaddayadda.com

Be careful lest you be punished....qqb021.gif

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I've been reading this thread mostly out of curiosity. My wife and I have not made any coins, have not sold any coins, and have not even bought any coins, so I didn't think these rules would affect us.

 

We do not log coins virtually. We do not log coins at events. We do it the old-fashioned way--we go out and find them in caches, pick them up, and drop them off in other caches. We get our icons the hard way. :mad:

 

If the non-trackable coin will be sold anywhere, then it should not be discussed or otherwise promoted here.

Not too long ago, I mentioned in a thread that we found two unactivated California geocoins in caches. California geocoins were sold elsewhere and are not trackable on geocaching.com. It sounds like I would get in trouble under the new rules.

 

Are you really saying that we are not allowed to mention or ask questions about non-trackable geocoins that we find in caches?

 

If we find a non-trackable geocoin in a cache, how are we supposed to know whether it is ok to talk about (sig item or trade item) or not ok to talk about (was originally for sale)?

 

Lloyd Lee-Lim

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3.  No, announcing that information on a coin is available on a different web site would be promoting the sales of the coin, in violation of the new policy.  A Geocoins For Sale yahoo group is fine.

Once again I'm hazy....

 

Can I announce the Hazards of Caching series of coins (which was announced before the new policy) is going to be available on a Hazards of Caching Yahoo group and direct them to the group or to Yahoo in general?

 

In other words can I say....

 

"The Hazards of Caching geocoin series will be available at the Hazards of Caching Geocoin group on yahoo.com. Please join that list for information. (insert image of the first coin here)"

 

Yes or no?

 

Frankly it's getting to tiresome to try to figure out what you can and can't do on the forums anymore. I'd rather open a yahoo group, forward people there and just have done with it.

Let me try to help, although I think Rothstafari's last post was clear.

 

If the coin is NOT trackable, you cannot promote the sale of it on these forums or by driving people to other places (using these forums to do so).

 

For your series of coins:

- Any coin that is in production has been grand-fathered in

- Announcing a coin does not qualify as "in production"

- Submitting a design or getting a design from a minter does not qualify as "in production"

 

"In production" means that the artwork has been approved, money has been paid and the minter has started physically making the coins so it's too late to make design changes.

 

Up until that point, as well all know, you can still make changes.

 

I hope that clears up your questions.

 

-FSM

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In other words can I say....

 

"The Hazards of Caching geocoin series will be available at the Hazards of Caching Geocoin group on yahoo.com. Please join that list for information. (insert image of the first coin here)"

 

Yes or no?

If it is going to be for sale and the details are on the yahoo group, then no, you can't.

 

If it is going to be for trade only and the details are on the yahoo group, then that would be probably be okay.

 

It's really not that difficult to figure out. If it isn't trackable, and it's going to be sold, then don't post anything about it here.

 

--Marky

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Not too long ago, I mentioned in a thread that we found two unactivated California geocoins in caches. California geocoins were sold elsewhere and are not trackable on geocaching.com. It sounds like I would get in trouble under the new rules.

 

Are you really saying that we are not allowed to mention or ask questions about non-trackable geocoins that we find in caches?

 

No. In this example these coins were sold a long time ago. Asking questions about the coin (where do I track, etc.) is a genuine question and not promoting the sale of the coin.

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Can someone explain to me EXACTLY what the third word from the forth word the the left of bullet point that is three above the bottom one means?

 

Please :(:(:(

Again - rothstafari was clear.

 

Honestly - I think he was clear!

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Up until that point, as well all know, you can still make changes.

Translation: It's not too late to cough up Jeremy's buck fifty per.

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Let me start by noting that prior to releasing the policy, a last minute decision was made to allow the trading of non-trackable coins.

I was really struck by this. Allowing the TRADE of coins was a last minute decision? You're kidding, right? My suggestion is get rid of the geocoin forum all together. Trackable coins can be discussed, designed, traded, sold, etc through the travel bug forum (as they were orginally). Non-trackable coins can be discussed, designed, and traded through the regular forum as sig items (even if they are sold somewhere else).

 

Let's take the "coin" out of the equation for a minute. My sig item is a dream catcher. I leave them in caches I find. BUT I also sell them at craft shows, and online through a Native American store (actually I've stopped doing this for now -- not enough time to make them all -- but probably will start again in the future). Anyway, by these rules I can not mention my sig item in the forums or offer to trade my sig item for other sig items.

 

Something is definately wrong with this picture. When these new rules were first posted for us to read, it was stated that Non-trackable coins could be offered for trade even if they were sold somewhere else as long as no mention of the sale or website or other forum was made. Now you are saying this is not so?

 

Since this is a Q & A thread, my question is --is it possiblle for this part of the policy to be "rethunk" as my father would say.

 

Windrose

 

Edited to put the word "Non-trackable" in the appropriate places.

Edited by Windrose

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Some answers:

 

Let me start by noting that prior to releasing the policy, a last minute decision was made to allow the trading of non-trackable coins. This was done in order to encourage the creation and use of non-trackable coins while still limiting sales of coins in the Groundspeak forums to those that were trackable.

 

Sure, people might try to work around those rules and some, or most, might actually get away with it. However, those who use the forums to promote the sale of their non-trackable coins and get caught will be punished somehow. Hopefully the threat of punishment will be enough of a deterrent. If not, it is our problem to address.

 

So, here is an answer to some of the questions:

 

QUOTE

So, here are official questions on the new guidelines:

1: Can we only discuss designs of coins that will be trackable?

2: If I'm offering a non-trackable coin for trade can I post its image (within acceptable community standards of course)

3: If I'm working on a non-trackable coin, can I solicit design comments/critisism?

 

1. If the coin will eventually be sold, then you can only discuss designs of coins that will be trackable. Otherwise, we will consider it promotion of the coin. If the coin will not be sold, then you can discuss the design.

 

Note: If we find out that you sold a non-trackable coin after promoting it (through the use of design input solicitation) in the Groundspeak geocoin forums, you will be subject to moderation, the severity of which will solely depend on our perception of the intent of your action.

 

<chop>

Ok so, don't:

ask for design input or advice of your non-gc.com-trackable coin here and ever sell it (anywhere) since it would be considered a promotion and you'll be punished.

ask for design input or advice of a coin in general, then go and make the coin non-gc.com-trackable and ever sell it (anywhere) since it would considered a promotion and you'll be punished.

change your mind once you've recieved any sort of help in this forum (or be very careful about it) since it may be considered a promotion and you'll be punished.

 

 

Questions:

Does this apply only to the person having the coin made? What would happen if cacherA made a coin for trade, cacherB traded for some of these and then started putting them on ebay, while the cacherA was still offering for trade? (This seems likely to happen at some point unless people that make personal trade coins are making swapps really fast)

 

Does the 'no promoting things to be sold (non-gc.com-trackable of course)' thing apply to only the person having the coin made? Once in a while there are threads like 'get coin ideas here', are all these idea's tainted? Will these types of threads be stopped in the future?

What if a phrase/action/incident (think of "screw geocoins lets find some caches" type thing) in the forum sparks a coin, that ends up being non-gc.com-trackable. Am I correct in thinking the person(s) at the center of incidend will not be punished, even though they in a way promoted the coin??

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Can someone explain to me EXACTLY what the third word from the forth word the the left of bullet point that is three above the bottom one means?

 

Please :lol::lol::P

There are no words to the left of the bullet point. Stop trying to confuse everyone. :P

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Can someone explain to me EXACTLY what the third word from the forth word the the left of bullet point that is three above the bottom one means?

 

Please  :lol:  :P  :D

There are no words to the left of the bullet point. Stop trying to confuse everyone. :lol:

I mean to the Right :P

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It is simple and sad. Non trackable coins that might be sold at any time or place by the producer of the coin may not be posted here.

I strongly disagree with the policy but it is Groundspeak's site and they set the rules.I feel that all coins should be freely disscussed and traded here.I also feel they should be offered for sale but respect and understand the reasons behind prohibiting promotion.

I would request again a rethinking of the policy to allow trading of all coins regardless of tracking and sales.

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If I could be so bold:

 

The Groundspeak forums shall not be used to promote any commercial activity that does not generate revenue for, or otherwise benefit Groundspeak. (contact Groundspeak to discuss if your activity qualifies as a benefit)

 

I'd have no problem with that (of course, I have no problem with what's already there). I wouldn't want someone selling their stuff in a store that I owned.

 

This would still allow trading (non-commercial exchange), still allow group and organizational coins to be sold (non-profits could be considered non-commercial I suppose), and even personal coin announcements etc.

 

I honestly don't get it when folks think that this site is not a commercial organization -- they are, aren't they? It seems they don't want you using their equipment to promote your sales -- imagine that.

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It all depends on how you look at it.

 

Does a particular action benefit the hobby or the operation's pocketbook? It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

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It all depends on how you look at it.

 

Does a particular action benefit the hobby or the operation's pocketbook? It doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.

Sorry. I expressed an opinion and didn't ask a question. I went to edit my comment out, but there was a response already -- so I'll leave it.

 

Out of respect to the post following mine.

 

I think you are splitting hairs. I would still not allow someone to sell their wares in my commercial enterprise -- even if they were "promoting" my company. Mutual benefit requires mutual consent. I think Groundspeak has been clear.

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I think you are splitting hairs.

Not splitting hairs at all.

 

This move is to further line their purses, pure and simple. The talk about bandwidth is, well, non-sense. They want their cut. It's more about the money than about the hobby. This move illustrates that.

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I think you are splitting hairs.

Not splitting hairs at all.

 

This move is to further line their purses, pure and simple. The talk about bandwidth is, well, non-sense. They want their cut. It's more about the money than about the hobby. This move illustrates that.

Actually, I meant splitting hairs on the term "benefit". (benefit: Groundspeak / benefit: hobby)

 

I have no problem with commercial entities "lining their purses". I suggest the financial health of Groundspeak is fine by me -- in fact -- it's mutually benefical as it also benefits the hobby :lol:

Edited by Lemon Fresh Dog

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Yes, heaven forbid that anybody except the MANY people minting coins make any money on them.

 

Think I'll go to Starbucks this afternoon and see if I can start selling coffee cups there. Hey, it ties into thier product, right? :lol:

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Okay, I understand that Geocaching.com is a company, and companies are designed to generate revenue. I also realize that the new geocoin policy is designed to help generate and protect that revenue stream. This is all fine and dandy with me I have no problem with the fact that as a company they can decide what rules they want to apply, to best suit their business needs. This issue with trackable coins has definitely clarified the issue, that we are dealing with a company here, not a sport or a charitable organization. Thats great. They provide a service to me that I value, making it so that I can partake in a sport/hobby that I particularly enjoy. I don't plan on going anywhere, and I appreciate what they've created for us all. Thank you GC.com!

 

Many people, myself included, have been a little bit taken back by this decision about nontrackable coins. Several people have pointed out that cachers like myself are niave to think that GC.com would make any other decision under these circumstances. We have been reminded that GC.com is doing what any other company would do financially. It has also been pointed out that GC.com is not a non-for-profit organization, and that it is under no legal or ethical responsibility to follow the voice of its membership. They are a business and provide some valuable services for geocachers. I must say that in my heart of hearts, before this all came about, I felt like GC.com was more of a Community or a Family than a Business. It is obvious that many others had a similar feeling. This has been a paradigm shift for many of us. I honestly had put this to rest, and felt fine with GC.com being a business rather than a friend. Then I went out caching today for the first time in awhile. When I got home and started logging my caches, what do my eyes behold, but a cute little picture of Signal the Frog in an advertisement, asking me to "Please support Geocaching.com by buying a Premium Membership." Suddenly it hit me! I understood why many of us felt like GC.com was a community or service, rather than a business. Wow, what a moment of clarity! The advertising for GC.com seems to imply in some cases (not all by any means, or even most, maybe this is the only one) that by getting a premium membership, we are supporting a CAUSE. No wonder we feel like GC.com is a non-for-profit organization, because that's the way some advertising is angled. I see the Red Cross asking for Support. I see the Salvation Army asking for Support. I see thousands of other charitable organizations asking for Support, but I don't think I've ever seen a COMPANY (other than a Ma and Pa shop) asking for support. I certainly have never walked into a Starbucks. and seen a sign that says "Please SUPPORT Starbucks." (nothing against your post Kaelia, the name was just in my head after reading your post). Something like that would be inconceivable, in fact, it would send some of us away laughing. Since it is clear that GC.com would like a business relationship with its members, rather than a family relationship, maybe it would serve them well to make sure their advertising approach was consistent with this paradigm. It may lead to less heated discussions in the future, and reduce the sense of ownership that some of us have had, which in my opinion lead to so many problems in the context of changes that affect GC.com members.

 

I realize this is a place for questions, so here is my question:

 

In all honesty, I understand that Geocaching.com has business interests that it has the right to protect, but could we please do away with advertising that makes Signal the Frog look like a bell-ringer for a charitable organization?

 

I mean absolutely no malice in this post, and hope the moderators and administrators will take it into serious consideration. I think it would be a step toward clarifying the role of GC.com and its members.

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You probably could have logged every one of the caches you found without having to support geocaching. An exception or two wouldn't surprise me, however. Meaning that without your money they would still have a network of computers and databases to run the caching site. The analogy of Starbucks as it relates to this particular concern would be that you could get as much coffee for free that you want, but if you ever want a latte or a mocha it'll cost you $2.50 per month. You still get as much coffee as you want, and all the latte and mocha you want for that price. If you stop paying the $2.50 then no more lattes or mochas, but enjoy all the regular coffee you want.

 

Support? Yes. It's optional. Unlike the coffee at Starbucks you don't have to pay for it in order to benefit.

 

Regarding the need to prevent others from coming into the store and trying to sell their coffee even when you're giving it away for free - I completely understand.

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This thread is for questions about the Geocoins policy. Please remain on-topic. Thanks.

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What if you started a coin with the intention of selling it and, of course, it was trackable, but in the course of getting your design "approved" you couldn't meet eye to eye? Consequently, you moved forward with tracking from another site and sold the coin.

 

As I've read the rules this is clearly a violation and makes you subject to "punishment."

 

A I reading this correctly?

 

Thanks

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Why do WE have to Pay to Advertise for Geocaching.com?

 

Shouldn't GC.com be paying for their own advertising?

 

That is what having a GC trackable coin comes down to isn't it? Getting GC's name out there.

Edited by UOTrackers

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What if you started a coin with the intention of selling it and, of course, it was trackable, but in the course of getting your design "approved" you couldn't meet eye to eye? Consequently, you moved forward with tracking from another site and sold the coin.

 

As I've read the rules this is clearly a violation and makes you subject to "punishment."

 

A I reading this correctly?

 

Thanks

Yes. I think that this question was answered by a previous post from Rothstafari. It is just an example of a situation where a trackable coin might turn out to be nontrackable when produced and sold. Groundspeak and the moderator team would look at the intentions at the times of the forum posts. Hopefully, an inability to agree upon a coin design has not been a recurring problem?

 

I am reproducing the relevant part of the previous answer, to be complete.

 

If the coin will eventually be sold, then you can only discuss designs of coins that will be trackable. Otherwise, we will consider it promotion of the coin. If the coin will not be sold, then you can discuss the design.

 

Note: If we find out that you sold a non-trackable coin after promoting it (through the use of design input solicitation) in the Groundspeak geocoin forums, you will be subject to moderation, the severity of which will solely depend on our perception of the intent of your action.

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I would add that maybe the wisest thing to do is to not post any designs, ideas, etc. until FINAL approved artwork is ready.

 

That would avoid any confusion, or discussions around intent.

 

If you can't come to an agreement on design (which as Keystone pointed out would be unlikely), then the design was never posted here and there are no possbile problems.

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I would add that maybe the wisest thing to do is to not post any designs, ideas, etc. until FINAL approved artwork is ready.

ROFL!

 

Catch-22!

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What is the policy about talking about the "other" forum where there will be no locked threads of any kind?

A fair question - your answer from the guidelines pinned at the top of these forums:

 

Posts made with the intention of soliciting customers to a coin selling, tracking, or manufacturing website will not be tolerated. Links to other commercial coin selling, coin tracking, coin trading and coin manufacturing web sites will be permitted only with permission from Groundspeak. Permission requests may be sent to bizdev (at) Groundspeak.com.

 

While the guidelines may explicity say "links", the intent is to not promote the other sites (for those who may be looking for that loophole).

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As the Geocion Committee Chair for the MnGCA I actually understand the GC.com policy. I don't necessarily like or agree with it but I do understand it. I am also glad that our coin was completed before the policy went into effect.

 

And yes I have a question for Jeremy or the admins.

 

Geocaching.com is the leading site in the world for geocaching and the gathering of geocachers world wide. You started it and I'm sure that you are not to worried at this time about mataining that lead. As such the geocoin craze that has abound for the last couple of years was started here. I can understand not wanting to use up your bandwidth to support the sales that don't contribute to your site. But your patrons continue to grow because of things you do and that they do. Why can you not allow individual and organization to post simple links to their developed coin? I'm not talking about a manufacturing posting a link or even the we do it all sites.

 

But if I want to inform our group that I've created a new coin and provide the link it does little to your bandwidth. Since I had made the decision not to make it trackable it doesn't take away from your bandwidth. It keeps the community together and unfractured. It also provides your patrons a single source to support each other. It seems that the benefits far outway the losses. A simple forum that allows an individual or Geocaching Organization to post a link is all I am talking about. Moderation would be easy and the forum does not require discussion. It's nothing more then anouncements. If a moderator finds a link to a commercial site then the link could be edited out. But If the link is to an information page hosted at my own geocaching organization then all you are doing is providing a service that your customer base seems to what.

 

In either event, the golden rule here applies. We don't have any choice but to follow those rules.

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In either event, the golden rule here applies. We don't have any choice but to follow those rules.

Thats not the golden rule... The golden rule is "do unto others as you would have them to do unto you"...

 

And we do have other options... Like checking out other websites that allow the open discussion of all geocoins, not just the ones that geo-cash-in makes money off of(and it looks like others have begun to either do that or not produce as many coins as the amount of posts have dropped dramatically since the inception of these new rules).

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i think my eyes are gonna bleed after reading 8 pages. this has really turned me off of thinking about making my own coins. i could understand a small fee for tracking but $1.50 per coin is a little high. is there any way the mods or who ever could reconsider this high of a fee? or maybe place a general fee like X$ for Y amount of coins? i think that lowering the fee would get more people involved in making coins as well as increse revinue in gs.com. thanks for any info you can provide.

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i think my eyes are gonna bleed after reading 8 pages. this has really turned me off of thinking about making my own coins.

Don't let that stop you. There are always auctions and other forums that do allow you to show and sell your coins of you want to go that route.

 

The new rules are going to stop a lot of people but there are still a lot of us who are going to do personal coins and creat other coins. It's just made us more creative as to how we go about it.

 

The price per coin for tracking is a big problem. For us, personally, it was giving Groundspeak final word on our design. To be able to track a coin on Groundspeak they had to approve our design. It's too much of their fingers in our pot, since they aren't taking any financial risk.

 

I hope you will produce a coin. Personal coins are getting more and more creative and are the favorites in my collection.

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Soon there will be another place to discuss geocoins, doesn't matter if they're trackable or not... Hopefully I'll have it up and running soon.

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Soon there will be another place to discuss geocoins, doesn't matter if they're trackable or not... Hopefully I'll have it up and running soon.

YAGCDF

 

yet another geocoin discussion forum.

 

I can't keep track.... <_<

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<Content removed by moderator>

 

Posts made with the intention of soliciting customers to a coin selling, tracking, or manufacturing website will not be tolerated. Links to other commercial coin selling, coin tracking, coin trading and coin manufacturing web sites will be permitted only with permission from Groundspeak. Permission requests may be sent to bizdev (at) Groundspeak.com.

Edited by Flying Spaghetti Monster

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Thats great, however my site is just a discussion forum where people can FREELY discuss geocoins without the fear of a "punishment" that has never even been defined. Its not commercial, its not a coin selling, coin trading, or anything. Its a coin DISCUSSION site unlike this forum seems to be becoming.

 

PS: I might get another warning for this post, but oh well... The coins sold on this forum are dying off anyways.

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There's now too many additional outside forums to discuss geocoins. I really hope Groundspeak will amend the policy about selling only trackable coins here. The damage to the coin collecting community was anything but minimal. And the only people who lose are the coin collectors. Why should "we" be punished? From a PR standpoint it was simply a good move for Groundspeak NOT to limit what type of coins can be sold here.

 

I don't sell my "personal non-trackable coins," but I do like to purchase from those that do. Doesn't that count for anything? Can't THAT be a feature of my premium membership?

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if you all have other coin sites please sent me a message with them. i would really like to see what options are out there. thanks.

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I would add that maybe the wisest thing to do is to not post any designs, ideas, etc. until FINAL approved artwork is ready.

 

That would avoid any confusion, or discussions around intent.

 

If you can't come to an agreement on design (which as Keystone pointed out would be unlikely), then the design was never posted here and there are no possbile problems.

You're kidding right? Please tell me that you didn't just suggest that sharing designs or ideas should stop altogether on these forums until approval is reached. I've heard some incredible statements made, but you have finally been the one to reach the top of the heap. Stop sharing ideas. The three words that this whole forum has now boiled down to. This is truly a sad, sad moment. Way to go. :grin:

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I think that statement was meant in the sense that if you can't decide whether it's going to be trackable or not, then you best just wait. If it is going to be trackable then post from the get go. People are trying hard to find loopholes.

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No, GC.com is just trying to scare people into making trackable coins by threatening "mysterious" consquences that they have not made known...

 

If you're coin might not be trackable, no getting ideas from here...

 

If you change your mind halfway through and decide your coin won't be trackable and you got ideas from here, you will face the "consequences which have not been defined"

 

No money for us, no coin posting for you.

 

Sienfield gave us the soup nazi, GC.com has given us the coin nazis.

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thats why if you cant beat em create your own

VVVVV get my drift?

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thats why if you cant beat em create your own

VVVVV get my drift?

I know that one... Thats why if you take a look at the bottom of my sig, you will see the soon to be new non-commercial geocoin website and forum that I am creating.

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So, are you on here for any other reason than to promote your up and coming site?

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Once again... this is a Q&A thread. Please remain on topic.

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keystone we try to stay on topic by asking questions and we get no answers. i asked a question 24 hours ago and no answers have yet to appear. we are still on topic by discussing coins and the new coin policy by saying there are alternatives to this site. people are going to buy tracking numbers but they want to be able to discuss it before they decide and this site is now limiting that option. no im not promoting my site i dont have a coin and i think if you promote something you are getting payed for it. my site is free, free to me and free to whom ever wants to join. it is there to get a gathering of coin lovers to discuss what they want to do with a coin as well as what they would like to see in others coins. i wont go any farter because i dont want to get banned. keystone i understand that the mod's are volys but you have time to tell us to keep it on topic but not enough time to give us any answers. how is that helping us?

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