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New Geocoin Policy

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But suddenly GEOCACHING.COM turned into GEO CASH IN .com ...

Granted, the quote is out of context, but I think this is what everyone is complaining about. I know this is what I'm thinking about the issue.

What I was referring to was the coin sales, the ebay sales, the auctions. Not Groundspeak's policy. Jeremy was "dragged kicking and screaming" into making coins trackable. Has anyone noticed the price of a premium membership has never gone up? $2.50 a month is cheap.

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[Has anyone noticed the price of a premium membership has never gone up? $2.50 a month is cheap.

Yeah, if Starbucks was only as cheap!

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The thing that really lit my fire here, is the fact that TPTB alluded to the fact that WE should help fund the bandwidth of promoting the coin sales (even if it is a break-even venture).  In some small degree, I can understand this concept, but to tie the $1.50 per coin tracking charge to bandwidth costs, is ridiculous.  On a 1000 coin run, that's an additional $1500.  Bandwidth overall is cheap these days, and a couple hundred posts with coin requests hardly justifies the comparison that would make each post worth about $2-7 in bandwidth if using only that correlation.

 

Activity on other forums, such as OT were mentioned in a way that somewhat ties to my argument.  Yet those who post there aren't charged anything for the ability to post.

I think the only mistake that GS made was making any statement/justification as to what we were funding. The company doesn't owe us that, my cable bill (insert electric/garbage/water/etc) goes up all the time, I never hear why, it's the way of business and the growing cost to run one.

They are a business. They are growing faster than I'm betting they could have imagined, the tiny amount of money they collect for premium membership (which is optional) is not going to cover the growing expenses. To keep the original game (geocaching) free $ needs to be brought in. "taxing" the extra activities makes perfect sense to me.

Edited by Hula Bum

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$2.50 a month is cheap.

...and considering only the 29,820 registered paying member to this forum, their $2.50 a month comes to $74,550. $74,550 a month is a serious chunk of change.

 

Like you said, "GEO CASH IN .com" Ka-ching!

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$2.50 a month is cheap.

...and considering only the 29,820 registered paying member to this forum, their $2.50 a month comes to $74,550. $74,550 a month is a serious chunk of change.

 

Like you said, "GEO CASH IN .com" Ka-ching!

You say it is a serious chuck of change but really . . . when you pay salaries, benefits, rent equipment etc. Not so much left over as you might think. Besides, GEOCACHING is a great game, why begrudge a little profit. We all have the right to:

 

1. quit playing

2. use other sites to play the game

3. quit collecting coins

4. use other sites to collect coins.

 

It is kind of like complaining about coin prices. They will quit going up when people quit buying them.

 

TO Groundspeak: don't try to justify the money expenses it is private information and won't help at all.

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I think this whole thing has been beaten to death. Obviously many of us don't like the direction, but it's their company, their site, and their right to make any choices they made.

 

I personally feel that the whole thing could have been handled better, as it's been terrible PR for them.

 

But the whole point of the forums and the main site is about geocaching, so I'm obviously not going to leave when the coins are a secondary activity. Just something fun to do while waiting for new caches to come out!

 

Can we close this thread and move on with life?

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Ok gang, one final time.

 

This thread is for Q&A only. Please limit your comments and opinions accordingly. It's hard for folks to actually look for questions and answers amongst all the other commentary.

 

Should you feel the need to express your opinions, etc. please open a new thread.

 

- FSM

 

Edit: Added after ChileHead's post. Not directed directly at ChileHead.

Edited by Flying Spaghetti Monster

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<Content removed by moderator

 

As noted above, this is a Q&A thread.

 

This will be the final warning to stay on topic. Future off-topic posts will be deleted and posting privileges may be subject to suspension.

 

There are a lot of questions right now; let's keep this a place for people to ask them and get answers.

 

- FSM>

Edited by Flying Spaghetti Monster

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1. We are not saying that this forum is limited to coins that are trackable on geocaching.com. We are saying that SALES of coins in this forum are limited to those which are trackable. You can use this forum for selling and trading GC-trackable coins. You can talk about trading coins even if they are not trackable.

What's the difference to GC.com if I post the two following topics:

 

"I have 100 new ju66l3r coins (non-trackable) for trade! If you have a non-trackable coin that's in this list of non-trackable coins that I don't have in my collection yet, then I will trade you 1-for-1 with my coins directly by mail."

 

OR

 

"I have 100 new ju66l3r coins (non-trackable) for sale! If you have $5, I will send you 1 of my coins directly by mail. I am also interested in the purchase of your non-trackable coins if they cost about $5 each and they are not in my collection."

 

In other words, if I'm putting money in my pocket from the design and ordering of coins, then I better be lining your pocket too by making them trackable at this website...but if I'm growing my collection from the design and ordering of coins for trade-bait, then we're all good?

 

If I outlay $200 to make a set of 50 non-trackable coins and trade them until I have 50 different non-trackable coins via this site...then what's the difference than if I outlay $200 for a set of 50 non-trackable coins and sell them all for $200 via this site?

 

We have no desire to host a free marketplace, on our dime, so that others can create their own geocoin businesses.  If they are willing to help pay for the bandwidth, etc., by paying for the tracking functionality, then they are welcome to sell their coins in the forum. 

 

Oh...I think I see. So, I can use your bandwidth to get the equivalent of $200 in non-trackable coins through trades (if I invest the $200 to make my own coins)...but I can't use your bandwidth "on your dime" to get my $200 back and give a new coin/design to the geocaching/geocoin community.

 

What if I said I would give my non-trackable coins away for free here? All they have to do is send me $9 for shipping and handling per coin.

 

What if I said I have non-trackables for trade, please contact me through my profile for more info...and then offered the contacts a direct sales option?

 

What if the hard work of the moderating staff (unpaid...so it's not like their workload is costing you more to moderate here) is actually doubled by people trying to sneak around your "no non-trackable sales" rule or just being plain ignorant of the fact that it exists before they post?

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Ok Jeremy and the moderators, I have some LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS/CONCERNS for those of you who can perhaps answer them. I appreciate your taking the time to read this and if possible respond to what you are able. I'm not posting this as an attack or even criticism, but rather as someone trying to understand the geocoin policy change and the fees related to the situation overall.

 

First, I work for an internet auction service (y'all can take 3 guesses on who it is and the first one you name will prolly be it) but many of you already know this. Because of this, I have a rational comprehension of costs to running a site that gets at least 100 times the hits that this one does. Yes, I understand completely about the cost for bandwith, additional servers, redundancies, and so on. As a site grows, I know that this cost doesn't go down. I see that my annual fee for geocaching.com is $30 a year. I am ok with this. I understand that this is a service provider with database maintenance and coding that all has to be kept in place. To me, this is a nominal fee for a sport and hobby that I *LOVE* and can do with my family, my friends, and my dog. <_< IMHO, the fee is worth it. (How many $30 do I spend on stupid piddly things in a year that I really don't need or enjoy half as much - think 30 items off the Wendy's 99 cent menu - FROSTY in particular - and you get the idea of my thoughts!)

 

The fee for this service is reasonable.

 

Now, I guess my questions are the following (again, not attacking, just asking logical questions) :

 

A) From my understanding, the moderators and those who approve caches are (among other things) ALL VOLUNTEERS. Is this correct?

 

If so, it would seem that in the grand scheme of things, you have maybe say 25 people (please correct here because I'm going off what it seems like to the average user) that would run this site and need to be paid (That's giving alot - the site I work for has millions of members and about 4000 people working for it). I feel that this is what our $30 a year pays for in addition to the bandwith, maintenance, etc. Logically, I note that you have at least some income coming in from advertising, and sales of branded items, including clothing, travel bugs, and trackable geocoins. I'm not saying you can't make a profit, or protect the community, or plan for future expansion. Which brings us to question B.

 

<_< I agree with the tracking on coins in one central location thing - regardless of whether it's your site or Joe Schmo's. I admit I have a preference for your site's trackable coins, and unless I know the person have drastically tapered off on buying non trackable personal coins. To me, It simplifies things for all cachers - regardless of native language if they're almost all trackable in one place. (For example, I can't imagine finding a coin that is trackable on site xyblahblah.com and made it all the way from Greece but I can't read the instructions to track its travels let alone know which site I need to log that funny little number on, trying on GC and then finding it doesn't work...and then keeping it thinking it was a trade item - and we ALL know this happens!) In addition, I would like to make my future coins trackable on your site and am willing to pay a NOMINAL fee for that priviledge. However, at present I don't see the *VALUE* in the $1.50 service of YOUR generating the tracking number. Can you please explain to me the *VALUE* and/or rationalize why it's $1.50 (as in what portion of my 1.50 is actually going to bandwith, etc on average - I know with the company I work for we have to justify everything especially when fees are discussed in light of earnings announcements)?

 

There is obviously some logic behind it, though I don't quite understand why it's so much. From our perspective, basically, the database for geocoins was already in place with the travel bugs. This didn't require all brand new programming - just a few extra columns in the database specific to the coin's tracking number possibilities. From a programming perspective, you can generate these as a numeric code that simply moves "up" one number/letter. So you tell it you want UT0000, then UT0001, UT0002 and so on. Once the programming is in place, you simply have to enter a "new" letter code for the next coin issue and the tracking numbers start again. Again, it doesn't seem to require an entire re-write of the code base for the coins or subsequent tracking numbers though I know it does require bandwidth.

 

Now, I have no objection to you making a small profit on the tracking numbers, but really, to me, $1.50 does seem a little high. I mean I would be willing to pay $0.50 a coin, and say $50 for the extra icon (I mean I *do* have to design the new icon myself) or maybe a little more (say $75) if you were designing the icon. (Graphic designers are a dime a dozen these days, so for one little piece of artwork that size, I know I would pay maybe $75 in the real world..if that...for 3 hours of work) To me, though, it seems like you're doing very little work for that extra $750 (at $1.50 each) for 500 coins - especially since the numbers would be randomly generated by the system, and the life of trackable geocoins thus far has been maybe at most 10 hops. (Heck, the life of most of my travel bugs hasn't exceeded 25-50 hops and they last a ton longer for their price!) Which brings me to question c:

 

C) In light of the fact that there is an additional fee from the manufactureror for each coin to be individually carved with the tracking numbers you provide, and that those of us going through a coin service (the coin service does NOT make ANY profit off the numbers they get from you but simply has to pass that cost along) to make the coins, is there any chance of requesting that you review the pricing (now that tracking numbers will be practically required to post on this site) and lower it to something less such as suggested in question B?

 

My major concern here is that I want to keep the coin I want to produce for trade and putting in caches at a reasonable cost. Yes, I would want to sell a few - say the first 10-25 on eBay to help lessen some of the "hit" I took. (I've been selling my extra coins on eBay to try and save money to make my own coin with this specific reason in mind.) Thing is that when I priced it without tracking numbers v/s with tracking numbers, the cost nearly doubled. This really put it out of reach for me to even buy, let alone put it into a cache and make it trackable on your site. (This is why I haven't done it yet - hoping your cost would go down as the coin craze continued to develop.) The alternative I looked into was developing the numbers myself (with a simple excel program then using another service to track them and/or building my own website) but then we go back to the "greek" theory I mentioned above.

 

Finally, question D:

 

D) Can you advise as to what is the average life of travelbugs/geocoins in the wild? Do you have figures like this that you can provide to help show me a value comparison here?

 

I mean $4.75 for a travel bug seems high, but if they're on average out in the wild for say 6-8 months (or like 50 hops even) and GC has done the work to produce everything about them V/S $1.50 extra on top of the $6.00 it's costing us to make and produce the items ourselves for 1-2 hops really doesn't seem like equal value when we've done most of the work on an individual basis. I guess my thought is if the cost were lowered in comparison to the value, maybe we could see more coins in caches as well....

 

Thanks for whatever responses you can provide. I hope you can applaud my effort to not shoot the messengers delivering the policy change, despite my initial not liking portions of it and wanting to respond with a huge blast. I would like to note that I do understand that this is a business (despite most folks here disagreeing) and you have a right to a profit and to allow/disallow whom you choose to use your site how you choose to do it.

 

On a side note, I will note that competition is part of the American way, so hopefully for the good of all, serious competition will arise in relation to not only this site, but others on the internet as well.

 

Kindest Regards,

 

~Rose

 

The Grand Experiment: Covering the world in Geocoins.. One Cache at a time.

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What if I said I would give my non-trackable coins away for free here? All they have to do is send me $9 for shipping and handling per coin.

 

What if I said I have non-trackables for trade, please contact me through my profile for more info...and then offered the contacts a direct sales option?

 

I think you know the answers here. No need to try and find loophoels in the wording as the intent of the guidleines are clear.

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

I have a project I am behind on here at the office.

 

Since you have so much time on your hands, would you mind stopping by and helping me out! <_<

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

I have a project I am behind on here at the office.

 

Since you have so much time on your hands, would you mind stopping by and helping me out! <_<

I would be glad to... Just tell me where to go so I can help you out... It gets boring around here.

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

I have a project I am behind on here at the office.

 

Since you have so much time on your hands, would you mind stopping by and helping me out! <_<

I would be glad to... Just tell me where to go so I can help you out... It gets boring around here.

<_<

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

I have a project I am behind on here at the office.

 

Since you have so much time on your hands, would you mind stopping by and helping me out! <_<

I would be glad to... Just tell me where to go so I can help you out... It gets boring around here.

<_<

Haha, so no address for me to stop by and help you pick up some of the slack? (-;

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A) From my understanding, the moderators and those who approve caches are (among other things) ALL VOLUNTEERS. Is this correct?

 

Which brings us to question B.

 

<_< Can you please explain to me the *VALUE* and/or rationalize why it's $1.50 (as in what portion of my 1.50 is actually going to bandwith, etc on average - I know with the company I work for we have to justify everything especially when fees are discussed in light of earnings announcements)?

 

Finally, question D:

 

D) Can you advise as to what is the average life of travelbugs/geocoins in the wild? Do you have figures like this that you can provide to help show me a value comparison here?

 

 

Kindest Regards,

 

~Rose

A. Yes, all volunteers but I don't know how many there are. My ball park figure is "a lot". There is a full time staff at Groundpeak.

 

B. I can't answer that, I do not know. Perhaps someone else could?

 

C. Discussion is always allowed and the staff at Groundspeak does listen, but I couldn't tell you if there is chance of changing it. They do listen, just look at all the new features that keep coming up.

 

D. That's a mighty tall order! I don't know if there is any way to look up all bugs and coins, without reading each cache/bug page and figuring out if the bug/coin is in the hands of a cacher, marked as missing, still in the cache, says it's in the caceh but someone posted it's missing, got picked up, not logged, logged but the log didn't twake (that happens sometimes) etc.... It just sounds like a mountainous task that even while being researched is changing all the time.

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Thanks Eartha, first off for reading that LONG WINDED post!

 

Pesonally, I think I would be most interested for some info re B & C even if D is difficult, just some perspective (I know geocoins are new). I'm really finding it hard right now to be motivated to make the coin I want to because it's so much more than just doing the signature items I have are. I think it would last longer, but boy is it alot to put it out there. *sigh*

 

I hope that the powers that be do decide to rethink the cost per coin and lessen it - but then... like everything, there's a cost. I just hope that it's not cost-prohibitive to those that are really trying to make a go of the hobby and the coins hobby that spring off of it.

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Activity on other forums, such as OT were mentioned in a way that somewhat ties to my argument. Yet those who post there aren't charged anything for the ability to post.

Posting in any forum now incurrs a $1.00 charge to your membership. And if you don't have a premium membership, you can no longer view the forums.

 

Thank you.

 

<_<<_<

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

I have a project I am behind on here at the office.

 

Since you have so much time on your hands, would you mind stopping by and helping me out! -_-

I would be glad to... Just tell me where to go so I can help you out... It gets boring around here.

:wub:

Haha, so no address for me to stop by and help you pick up some of the slack? (-;

<_<

 

We don't need no stinkin addresses! Grab your GPS and head to this cache and I am right across the street.

 

You can help me with network printer that is about to get thrown through a window! <_<

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What if I said I would give my non-trackable coins away for free here?  All they have to do is send me $9 for shipping and handling per coin.

 

What if I said I have non-trackables for trade, please contact me through my profile for more info...and then offered the contacts a direct sales option?

 

I think you know the answers here. No need to try and find loophoels in the wording as the intent of the guidleines are clear.

So I can't set my own shipping and handling costs? You have an upper limit in mind that you want to share with the rest of us?

 

How are you going to have any say over private e-mails with potential traders/buyers? The only way you'd stop my second scenario is to close down even non-trackable trades. Otherwise, I'll offer a trade and then give the option of a sale when dealing directly with a buyer/trader or decline to trade.

 

In other words, you're totally impotent to enforce your new rules. They only serve to drive people to want to pay the extra $1.50 per coin to keep their listing in the mainstream forum...or drive them away and fracture the cottage industry of a cottage industry based on the merger of two obsessive and compulsive hobbies (the "gotta catch-em-all" attitude of geocaching and the "collectability" of coins).

 

You also didn't address my first question on what the difference is to you "on your dime" whether my post mentions $5 or an equivalently priced coin when I have non-trackables.

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I'm really finding it hard right now to be motivated to make the coin I want to because it's so much more than just doing the signature items I have are. I think it would last longer, but boy is it alot to put it out there. *sigh*

 

Geocoins started as Sig items that were left in caches and traded in caches. I think if you still want them for this purpose (that is how I read your post), then there is no issue. The rules have nothing to do with the true caching part.

 

This has all come about because "sig" items are now being sold, not traded in the caches where they should be. If we all go back to the our caching roots this is a non issue.

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

I have a project I am behind on here at the office.

 

Since you have so much time on your hands, would you mind stopping by and helping me out! <_<

I would be glad to... Just tell me where to go so I can help you out... It gets boring around here.

<_<

Haha, so no address for me to stop by and help you pick up some of the slack? (-;

-_-

 

We don't need no stinkin addresses! Grab your GPS and head to this cache and I am right across the street.

 

You can help me with network printer that is about to get thrown through a window! :wub:

Haha, now that I could actually help you out with as I'm trying to start up a computer business for teching... However, I'm about a two days drive away from you!

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...D. That's a mighty tall order! I don't know if there is any way to look up all bugs and coins, without reading each cache/bug page and figuring out if the bug/coin is in the hands of a cacher, marked as missing, still in the cache, says it's in the caceh but someone posted it's missing, got picked up, not logged, logged but the log didn't twake (that happens sometimes) etc.... It just sounds like a mountainous task that even while being researched is changing all the time....

This wouldn't be too hard for someone with access to the Database. You have to make a couple of assumptions. First all dead bugs are in graveyards or have not moved in X amount of time. Then you can use the date they were registered and the date they 'died' and find an average. The info is all there and it's easy if you have the tool to process the data.

 

I think Jeremy did more work when he did the statistical breakdown (and it was a great statistic) of percentiles by finds.

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What if I said I would give my non-trackable coins away for free here?  All they have to do is send me $9 for shipping and handling per coin.

 

What if I said I have non-trackables for trade, please contact me through my profile for more info...and then offered the contacts a direct sales option?

 

I think you know the answers here. No need to try and find loophoels in the wording as the intent of the guidleines are clear.

So I can't set my own shipping and handling costs? You have an upper limit in mind that you want to share with the rest of us?...

That's a fair question. You mods have to police this stuff and we have to live with it. That's the problem with rules. The rule has to solve more problems than it creates and all rules create problems.

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OK, I have a question that I didn't see upstream.

 

We are producing a series of County coins for Washington State. Before the new guidelines came into effect, we announed the first coin, and its price, and had intrested parties e-mail us.

 

Can I still do this? If not, what do I have to do?

 

This series is not trackable.

 

This was also the intended plan for our proposed (non-trackable) Hazards of Geocaching series.

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I'm really finding it hard right now to be motivated to make the coin I want to because it's so much more than just doing the signature items I have are.  I think it would last longer, but boy is it alot to put it out there. *sigh*

 

Geocoins started as Sig items that were left in caches and traded in caches. I think if you still want them for this purpose (that is how I read your post), then there is no issue. The rules have nothing to do with the true caching part.

 

This has all come about because "sig" items are now being sold, not traded in the caches where they should be. If we all go back to the our caching roots this is a non issue.

You're correct - that's mostly what I want them for - and as a trade item for those few I'd like to get (in particular some of the coins with dragons on them...)

 

But with the extra $1.50 almost manditory for tracking per coin to post it here should I want to offer a few to newly starting people and/or do centralized tracking it's really hard on my pocketbook. By comparison, the hand sculpted sig items that I do take me somewhere around an hour each to make, but the cost is about $0.25 in materials. Yes, I number them, but I can't track them since they generally are traded for other sig items and/or get picked up first thing from a cache (they don't move). I know realistically, if I were making minimum wage, the metal coins are comparative in price, but it still *feels* less expensive making the sculpty coins as I go along. <_< It also seems more "personal"....

 

Of course, I also have to figure that if I put a coin in a cache, does this count as a trade item or a sig item? I put some kind of sig item in almost every cache I find now... but if I had a coin, would I keep doing this, or would it be only really "special" and "worthy caches" because of the extra added expense? (throwing a 0.25 cent sig item and a couple nice dollar store items in a cache with mostly "leftovers" is one thing, but a $7 coin is another...)

 

~Rose

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If you're trading them, they don't have to have tracking on them to post in these forums.

(If I understood your post correct)-I think I'm going cross eyed with all the posts here, so forgive if I missed your point and went the wrong direction!

 

I do know though that on several other site forums people continue to say that you have to have trackable to to trade, and that just ain't so!

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well, it'd be dumping in caches (where I'd want the tracking), trading, and then a handful for eBay...

 

The problem I'm seeing is that I didn't want to do the gc.com tracking (too much moola)- I wanted my own tracking set up... what I understand is that can't be posted here - trade or no trade. So, I'm trying to figure out if I want to rethink right now doing them at all. (feeling discouraged, though if I get a tax return I might not feel so discouraged...)

 

ed. for clarification....

Edited by phoenix-rose

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If it's just for trade, the way I read it, is you can do anything you want with it (well, legally!) No tracking, your own etched numbers, whatever, doesn't matter as long as your looking for a trade.

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It is my understanding that ANY coin can be posted for trade in the forums here. even if it is NOT trackable.

 

The only new ban is on the sale (or implied sale) of non gc trackable coins here.

 

I think you are even free to post images of the coins in their design phase and final images, as long as you are not selling them. I think they would be ok if you sold afew on e-bay or even another site, as long as you didn't mention it or even allude to that here if it was non-trackable.

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Much of the commercial-content angst I see in this thread could be avoided if TPTB would establish a Paid Classified Ad forum on this site. I have posted a detailed suggestion on this in the Geocaching.com Website forum:

 

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=120604

 

I posted this morning and so far no replies. The phrase "going over like a lead balloon" comes to mind...

 

<_<

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I also posted this idea yesterday here, but I think it got lost in all the flames. Hopefully yours will be seen!

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It is my understanding that ANY coin can be posted for trade in the forums here.  even if it is NOT trackable.

 

The only new ban is on the sale (or implied sale) of non gc trackable coins here.

 

I think you are even free to post images of the coins in their design phase and final images, as long as you are not selling them.  I think they would be ok if you sold afew on e-bay or even another site, as long as you didn't mention it or even allude to that here if it was non-trackable.

There are some other issues involved with their decision, it is not just as simple as you state. And one of the issues involves a somewhat stifling bit of control that I, specifically, have been directed not to speak about.

 

I am not even sure anymore if I can speak about not being able to speak about these issues, as almost anything I say now could be judged as "implying" one thing or another. It is a very slippery slope I'm on right now around here with the moderators, and the worst part is I have a suspicion I'm being looked at by ALL the moderators whenever I post now.

 

I am towing the line! (Or is it toeing the line?) But I would still like to be able to post here.

 

--Marc

January 20, 2006 @ 4:36 PM

N40° 46.565' W073° 58.756'

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So what is your post about? If we misrepresented/misunderstood the rule, I don't think the mods. will have any problem with you clarifying our mistake. This is a Q & A, and if I give the wrong answer to someone I hope it'll be corrected!

Edited by Hula Bum

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There are some other issues involved with their decision, it is not just as simple as you state. And one of the issues involves a somewhat stifling bit of control that I, specifically, have been directed not to speak about.

If that is the case then they need to update the guidelines again.

 

It doesn't mention anything about discussing designs or what anyone thinks of a particular potential coin (trackable or not) it is only discussing the trade and sale issues of coins.

 

I suppose that design doesn't fit with the intention of the forum:

While the intention of this forum is to discuss the Geocaching related aspects of geocoins (movements, tracking.); we realize that the trading and collecting of them is quite popular.

 

But I think that discussing potential coin designs needs to be addressed. If we are to be allowed to sell trackable coins here, isn't it in everyones best interest to make a well liked coin? As well as guage trade interest in coins as well?

 

So, here are official questions on the new guidelines:

1: Can we only discuss designs of coins that will be trackable?

2: If I'm offering a non-trackable coin for trade can I post its image (within acceptable community standards of course)

3: If I'm working on a non-trackable coin, can I solicit design comments/critisism?

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The problem I'm seeing is that I didn't want to do the gc.com tracking (too much moola)- I wanted my own tracking set up... what I understand is that can't be posted here - trade or no trade.

From the guidleines:

 

Non-trackable coins may be posted for trade by individual coin owners.

 

The way I read your post you are fine to produce your coin and post it here for trading. Non-trackable coins cannot be sold here, but trading is still ok and welcomed.

 

Hugh Jazz - it was just posted this morning - give us some time please. <_<

While it may seem like we are all here all the time, were' not.

 

Thanks,

 

- FSM

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What if I said I would give my non-trackable coins away for free here?  All they have to do is send me $9 for shipping and handling per coin.

 

What if I said I have non-trackables for trade, please contact me through my profile for more info...and then offered the contacts a direct sales option?

 

I think you know the answers here. No need to try and find loophoels in the wording as the intent of the guidleines are clear.

So I can't set my own shipping and handling costs? You have an upper limit in mind that you want to share with the rest of us?

 

How are you going to have any say over private e-mails with potential traders/buyers? The only way you'd stop my second scenario is to close down even non-trackable trades. Otherwise, I'll offer a trade and then give the option of a sale when dealing directly with a buyer/trader or decline to trade.

 

In other words, you're totally impotent to enforce your new rules. They only serve to drive people to want to pay the extra $1.50 per coin to keep their listing in the mainstream forum...or drive them away and fracture the cottage industry of a cottage industry based on the merger of two obsessive and compulsive hobbies (the "gotta catch-em-all" attitude of geocaching and the "collectability" of coins).

 

You also didn't address my first question on what the difference is to you "on your dime" whether my post mentions $5 or an equivalently priced coin when I have non-trackables.

We are not looking to 'have a say' over what people do in private, through private communication. That would be silly. Can you not understand that we simply do not want to become a free marketing tool for every coin maker out there? This is a discussion forum. Plain and simple and you're making it more complicated than it is.

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

No it doesn't mean you can trade it for dollar bills. That is just another form of loophole and it's not going to work. (Do you honestly think we were born yesterday?)

 

Please reread the guidelines again and refresh your memory on the tracking policy.

Edited by Eartha

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

No it doesn't mean you can trade it for dollar bills. That is just another form of loophole and it's not going to work. (Do you honestly think we were born yesterday?)

 

Please reread the guidelines again and refresh your memory on the tracking policy.

But you said non-trackables are able to be traded on this forum... You never specified what they had to be traded for... I want to trade my newly produced coin for 5 one dollar payments from paypal... See, that is a trade...

 

I'm just saying thats a loophole because according to the definition of trading, you can trade money for a good.

 

Guideline-

This forum may be used for selling, trading or giving away of geocoins which are trackable on Geocaching.com. This includes any trackable coin produced by an individual, business or geocaching organization. Non-trackable coins may be posted for trade by individual coin owners. The proceeds from a permitted coin sale can be used for any purpose, such as personal profit, support of a geocaching organization, or to benefit a charitable cause.

 

It says nothing about what has to be traded...

 

edited to add in the guideline

Edited by slumbersix

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Hmmm... So with the new non-trackable personal coin that I'm coming up with, could I do this scenario?

 

I post a link on here and instead of selling the coin, I can trade it, right? So... I'll put in the post that I want to trade the coin for 5 one dollar bills...

 

That still meets with the definition of trading(according to dictionary.com)

 

#1 The business of buying and selling commodities; commerce. See Synonyms at business.

#2 The people working in or associated with a business or industry: a textile-exporting publication for the trade.

#3 The customers of a specified business or industry; clientele.

#4 The act or an instance of buying or selling; transaction.

#5 An exchange of one thing for another.

 

So, instead of selling, we will be trading.

No it doesn't mean you can trade it for dollar bills. That is just another form of loophole and it's not going to work. (Do you honestly think we were born yesterday?)

 

Please reread the guidelines again and refresh your memory on the tracking policy.

But you said non-trackables are able to be traded on this forum... You never specified what they had to be traded for... I want to trade my newly produced coin for 5 one dollar payments from paypal... See, that is a trade...

 

I'm just saying thats a loophole because according to the definition of trading, you can trade money for a good and that wouldn't always be considered selling.

 

Guideline-

This forum may be used for selling, trading or giving away of geocoins which are trackable on Geocaching.com. This includes any trackable coin produced by an individual, business or geocaching organization. Non-trackable coins may be posted for trade by individual coin owners. The proceeds from a permitted coin sale can be used for any purpose, such as personal profit, support of a geocaching organization, or to benefit a charitable cause.

 

It says nothing about what has to be traded...

 

edited to add in the guideline

You were already told no. One more post of this nature will get you a warning.

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Can you not understand that we simply do not want to become a free marketing tool for every coin maker out there? This is a discussion forum. Plain and simple and you're making it more complicated than it is.

I'm not the one trying to impose an oppressive set of rules on an otherwise functional forum.

 

It's also clear that there's a control issue here and my guess is that people didn't even think about the "GC.com"-trackable part...

 

In other words, you can't sell your other trackables here either. My guess is there are a few tracking websites about to receive some sort of "do not link" or cease-n-desist letters in their mailboxes any day now.

 

What I don't understand is how you plan on patrolling your own policies. Thus my questions that you didn't answer, just talked around. Maybe you can't answer them, but this was the thread's purpose (to ask the questions...even the tough and complicated ones)...

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A serious question. Really.

 

With the recent moderator editing of posts to remove references to other coin trading and discussion steps, is there any reason to believe that this might be carried out to other discussion forums?

 

I heard (but never saw) discussions about other listing sites such as navicache.com were not allowed in the past.

 

If a thread starts to talk about (not with the intention to promote) navicache.com or terracaching.com will that thread get moderated too?

 

Maybe that already happens, and I've never seen it.

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The word forum by definition is about meeting places for discussion, not by defintion for selling things.

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The word forum by definition is about meeting places for discussion, not by defintion for selling things.

At least one of us can still post reasonable comments. :drama:

 

I have had to keep quiet. Everytime I start typing, I realize my words are dripping with sarcasm.

 

Time to follow my own advice...if I don't like what I'm reading, stop reading it!

 

(This is in no way directed at the moderators of this forum.)

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What I don't understand is how you plan on patrolling your own policies.  Thus my questions that you didn't answer, just talked around.  Maybe you can't answer them, but this was the thread's purpose (to ask the questions...even the tough and complicated ones)...

One of the considerations in developing the new policy for the Geocoins Forum was the practical ability of the moderating team to enforce the policy fairly and efficiently. For example, one of the reasons that charity auctions are now allowed is that it's awfully difficult to distinguish between a link to eBay for a charity auction vs. a link to eBay for a coin sold to help finance your purchase of more geocoins, or a motorcycle. We have better things to do than to investigate every eBay link. Once a person has a trackable coin that is eligible for sale (they own it, it's unactivated, or the owner consents), then the purpose of the sale becomes irrelevant.

 

Certainly there are other and more important considerations, but the ability to enforce a policy was definitely a factor.

 

The moderating team is also confident that we will be able to enforce the forum guidelines because the talented, patient and diplomatic Eartha has received some much needed help via the addition of Flying Spaghetti Monster. I am also helping out, hopefully temporarily. FSM has much experience with geocoins -- more than my own. The timing of FSM's addition to the moderating team was not a coincidence.

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