+AZBuckeye04 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Dear Geocaching Community (Cachers and Reviewers): I've been having trouble getting a cache of mine approved and it has been officially archived by the reviewer so I've been told I can start the appeal process if I deem it necessary. Part of that process is getting feedback from the caching community. Now I know I could make some small changes to this cache listing to get it approved, but that's actually what I'm trying to avoid. So as to give you all the information I will post all the messages between the reviewer and I. Some things will be edited out that I feel compromise the cache (if it does get approved) and the reviewer will be kept annonymous because I don't know if he/she wants to be mentioned by name. But first a brief summary of the cache: The cache is placed inside a library (with permission and help from the library). It is a mystery cache so by the description for a mystery cache the coordinates given are to a "general reference point" (in this case the front entrance). From this point the cacher will have a dewey decimal code (given in the name of the cache) that they will use to locate a book (disguised as a library book) that is actually the log book. It's a really fun cache that we've done in other areas and enjoyed. Here's our message history: January 14 by AZBliss02 This cache is actually a book placed inside the [edited] Library, [edited]. We discussed this cache placement with [edited] from the [edited] Library and she approved its placement and even helped with making the book look as authentic as possible to a library book. If you should need to contact her she can be reached at [edited]. FYI - you probably won't receive an immediate response from her, it sometimes takes a week or so because of her position with the library. reviewer response: January 15 by REVIEWER Hi. I'm reviewing your cache, [edited]. There's one problem. In the most recent revision of the cache placement guidelines, the use of a GPS is emphasized. Because a cache in a library doesn't require the use of the GPS to find anything, the best solution is to use a historical sign or micro cache outside that you use to give the location inside. In order for me to publish this cache, you'll need to use a method like this. After you've changed your cache, post a Note to Reviewer that you've made the modifications. Thanks for understanding, REVIEWER Geocaching.com Volunteer Reviewer my response: January 15 by AZBliss02 Thank you for responding to our cache listing. I understand the new focus Geocaching.com has taken on emphasizing the use of a GPS unit, however I'm not sure that our cache placement doesn't encourage the use of a GPS unit. Now granted, someone could pull up a map and see that the cache is at the library and then go from there, but we've done that with numerous caches that are located in parks (google map rocks), just looking without a GPS unit. However, a GPS unit still plays an important role in finding this cache, the coordinates lead to the entrance of the library which will help guide cachers into the library to find the cache. The adventure of using your GPS unit to find the library and then using your noggin' to find the log book (disguised as a library book) is such an experience and is our key purpose for placing this cache. In other words, although I understand where you're coming from, I really want to play out all our possible options with this one. If you can please explain to me how our cache doesn't fall within the description for a mystery cache: " The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache can involve complicated puzzles you will first need to solve to determine the coordinates. The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Due to the increasing creativity of geocaching this becomes the staging ground for new and unique challenges." Here, our coordinates to the front door mark our "general reference point". If you need to discuss this with other approvers I understand and encourage you to do so. Would it also be possible, if the cache doesn't fall under the "mystery cache" guidelines, to consider it as a Letterbox Hybrid cache? Again, thank you for taking the time to analyze our cache listing. Thank you, AZBliss02 reviewer response: January 15 by REVIEWER "GPS usage is an essential element of geocaching. Therefore, although it is possible to find a cache without a GPS, the option of using accurate GPS coordinates as an integral part of the cache hunt must be demonstrated for all physical cache submissions." (visit link) Please change the cache so that it fits within this guideline. Thank you, REVIEWER Geocaching.com Volunteer Reviewer my response: January 15 by AZBliss02 REVIEWER, please tell me how our cache doesn't fit within those guidelines. A cacher MUST use our coordinates to find the entrance to the library (nothing on the page directly tells them to go to the library, they have to use the coordinates in some way to determine that). Therefore, without the coordinates, this cache would be useless. Furthermore, tell me how our cache doesn't fit within the description set forth by Geocaching.com that explains what a Mystery Cache is: "The “catch-all” of cache types, this form of cache can involve complicated puzzles you will first need to solve to determine the coordinates. The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are not of the actual cache location but a general reference point, such as a nearby parking location. Due to the increasing creativity of geocaching this becomes the staging ground for new and unique challenges." This specifically states "The only commonality of this cache type is that the coordinates listed are NOT of the actual cache location but a general reference point..." Here our general reference point is the Front Door. REVIEWER, if you have something personel against us, or this type of cache, please send it on to another reviewer or multiple reviewers so it can be fairly discussed/reviewed. According to the link you sent me, the guidelines were last updated on (and I quote): "Guidelines last updated November 2, 2005" Here are 3 mystery caches that fall in line similar to the cache I am attempting to have approved. Please note ALL of these caches (located in Ohio) were approved within the last month so they do not fall underneath any "Grandfathered" guidelines: GCRK9J GCRMRZ- This cache states it doesn't even give coords, and that they aren't needed. Atleast I am incorporating coords in mine. GCRWCT Please, how can these be approved under the same guidelines that my cache is being reviewed against, yet my cache cannot be approved? Please REVIEWER, work with me. I've dealt with other approvers on previous caches and have always had great experiences, I'd really like to be able to continue that. Sincerely, AZBliss02 reviewer response: January 15 by REVIEWER I am in a position where I need to archive this cache, even though I think it could be listed with a couple changes. I have take this to the other reviewers and they agreed that it cannot be listed as it stands. This is so that you may take up the appeal process as it appears you may do. The way to have this cache published is to use something like a micro or some sign or historical marker to give the directions to find the cache in the library. A differant way to go is to place coordinates to a physical cache in the library. If this is done, it can be unarchived and published. This is a decision that Groundspeak has made. It is not personal. I have worked with several cachers who have modified their caches to comply with this guideline. Now, if you feel that you can't make it to the cache to modify it, then that's something differant. Since that cache seems to be right around [edited] miles away from home, I can understand that. If this is the problem, perhaps you can enlist the help of [edited] to help you fit this within the guidelines. I have no problem with this being a Mystery/Puzzle cache if it fits into that category once it complies with the general guidelines. If you feel that the guideline is unfair, you are welcome to post about it in the forums. This is how the guidelines recommend to do it. "If your cache has been archived and you wish to appeal the decision, first contact the reviewer and explain why you feel your cache meets the guidelines. Exceptions may sometimes be made, depending on the nature of a cache. If you have a novel type of cache that “pushes the envelope” to some degree, then it is best to contact your local reviewer and/or Geocaching.com before placing and reporting it on the Geocaching.com web site. The guidelines should address most situations, but Groundspeak administrators and reviewers are always interested in new ideas. If, after exchanging emails with the reviewer, you still feel your cache has been misjudged, your next option is to ask the volunteer to post the cache for all of the reviewers to see in their private discussion forum. Sometimes a second opinion from someone else who has seen a similar situation can help in suggesting a way for the cache to be listed. Next, you should feel free to post a message in the “Geocaching Topics” section of the Groundspeak Forums to see what the geocaching community thinks. If the majority believes that it should be posted, then Groundspeak administrators and volunteers may review the listing and your cache may be unarchived. Finally, if you believe that the reviewer has acted inappropriately, you may send an e-mail with complete details, waypoint name (GC****) and links to the cache, to Groundspeak’s special address for this purpose: firstname.lastname@example.org." I hope to be able to unarchive this cache for you soon. Good luck, REVIEWER Geocaching.com Volunteer Reviewer I apologize for this being so lengthy but I wanted all the information from both sides to be presented. Thanks, AZBliss02 Quote Link to comment
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