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Stone Wall Caches


KelticFrog

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For those who have not been to New England, here is what a typical stone wall looks like.

I must agree with Pinster56... this is typically how I have found many stone walls in New England. Call me a heretic but I move the stones in stone wall all the time (having rebuilt many a stone wall)

Edited by grueinthedark
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The Mending Wall

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,

That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,

And spills the upper boulders in the sun;

And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.

The work of hunters is another thing:

I have come after them and made repair

Where they have left not one stone on stone,

But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,

To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,

No one has seen them made or heard them made,

But at spring mending-time we find them there.

I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;

And on a day we meet to walk the line

And set the wall between us once again.

We keep the wall between us as we go.

To each the boulders that have fallen to each.

And some are loaves and some so nearly balls

We have to use a spell to make them balance:

"Stay where you are until our backs are turned!"

We wear our fingers rough with handling them.

Oh, just another kind of outdoor game,

One on a side. It comes to little more:

He is all pine and I am apple-orchard.

My apple trees will never get across

And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.

He only says, "Good fences make good neighbors."

Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder

If I could put a notion in his head:

"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it

Where there are cows? But here there are no cows.

Before I built a wall I'd ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out,

And to whom I was like to give offence.

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,

That wants it down!" I could say "Elves" to him,

But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather

He said it for himself. I see him there,

Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top

In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.

He moves in darkness as it seems to me,

Not of woods only and the shade of trees.

He will not go behind his father's saying,

And he likes having thought of it so well

He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."

 

-- Robert Frost.

 

Not to interupt, but I just had to post this, one of my favorite Frost poems.

 

Carry on with the discussion.....

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We live near all those stone walls and see both parts of the arguement. It's a very, very simple solution. When you start a cache anywhere near a wall just put in the cache description HANDS OFF THE WALL or something to that effect. Those walls are falling apart rapidly enough as it is with a few millions oak trees and branches falling across them every year. :)

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I think one thing we have to consider is that everything is precious to someone somewhere. All it takes is pissing off the right people and it will lead to infringement to the sport. My other hobby is metal detecting. I can't tell you how many stories I've read about careless metal detectorist leading to banning or restriction to the hobby. Where I live it took only one careless detectorist leaving holes every to make a historic park off limits to all the remaining careful detectorist. I would hate to see our sport of geocaching come under close scrutiny on a local or national level.

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How about this:

 

If the owner of the wall gives (hang on here comes that nasty word...) PERMISSION, then go ahead and put a cache in the wall. Otherwise it is best to err on the side of caution and find a place to put the cache with less potential impact.

 

As to warnings and clues, it is good to keep in mind that many cachers go "paperless" and may not read the cache page until AFTER they have searched (successfully or unsuccessfully).

 

I doubt many owners would permit a cache on in or near their wall- at least not if they appreciate its value and realize the potential destruction. These walls are not just rock piles, they are works of craftmanship that is rarely found today.

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These stone walls are all in various states of decomposition anyway and I really doubt caching will cause any major destruction of these walls.

But then you'll get some bonehead cacher that can't or won't appreciate that these walls are for the ages, not for you to decide that they are not important.

 

This wall had been in pristine condition for about 150 years, yet you want to place a cache in it so someone can haphazardly rearrange it for a McToy!

 

wall.JPG

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We have stone walls in my area that are part of the norm for how the area looks. It dates back from the 1800s when the are was settled.

 

There was a cache placed at a historical marker that had a stone wall around it. The clue aluded to the fact that when a stone was moved, you would find the cache. Needless to say, a lot of stones in the wall got moved around. The stone referred to wasn't even in the wall. When I visited the cache, I rebuilt the damage to the wall, but didn't find the cache. On a second visit I did find the cache, and the damage to the wall was worse. I rebuilt it again and put something of a spoiler in the logs telling people to leave the wall alone.

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I think the root problem is the increase in micros, level of difficulty and the attempts at ultra-camouflage. I'm guilty myself, but because many of us have been at this for a few years and have become a little bored with the same old containers, we have slowly shifted to hides that encourage disassembly. Whether rock walls, fake bolts in shelters, birdnests, or electrical boxes, the only way for a finder to determine if it is a cache container is to turn, pry, dig through, remove, unstack, or pull it out. Not good!

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Needless to say, a lot of stones in the wall got moved around. The stone referred to wasn't even in the wall. When I visited the cache, I rebuilt the damage to the wall, but didn't find the cache. On a second visit I did find the cache, and the damage to the wall was worse. I rebuilt it again...

Sounds like email to owner time, stating the problem and perhaps suggestions for a solution. (I believe this can be worded so that it doesn't p.o. the owner. But... some owners will get p.o'd no matter how you say it.)

 

If no response from the owner then its SBA time. If SBA is not a good political option then maybe a PM to the approver.

 

The fence cache you found is a problem that needs correction to ward off a geocaching black eye.

 

The fence cache Briansnat noted and the one I found are not problems and don't need to fall under a bulk-kill-the-fence-cache order.

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These stone walls are all in various states of decomposition anyway and I really doubt caching will cause any major destruction of these walls.

But then you'll get some bonehead cacher that can't or won't appreciate that these walls are for the ages, not for you to decide that they are not important.

 

This wall had been in pristine condition for about 150 years, yet you want to place a cache in it so someone can haphazardly rearrange it for a McToy!

 

wall.JPG

Yup, that's a stone wall. An engineered work of art.

 

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That's actually a stone fence. Like was mentioned above, it's a linear pile of rocks left by farmers clearing fields. There are literally millions of these stone fences all over New England. You find them everywhere you go.

Yes, they are 100-200yrs old. In general, they have as much historic value as all our chain link fences will have in 150yrs.

Not much.

What fascinates me most about them is they make me think about things. They remind me that there are almost no old forests here. At one point they were all cleared for farm land. It's hard to imagine doing all that with hand tools and manual labor. It's even harder to imagine actually trying to grow crops in such rough terrain.

 

Still, that doesn't mean we need to go out of our way to destroy them, just use some common sense. I'm no fan of "needle in a haystack" type hides, but most stone fence caches I've found don't require tearing apart anything. You just look and poke and once you find the cache you move one rock. After you replace the cache, you replace the one rock. No damage.

 

The problem comes from the fact that common sense isn't very common any more.

Scorched-earth cachers who pick up rocks and logs and fling them while looking for a cache should be shot; plain and simple.

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nicely put into perspective Mopar.

I agree with both sides of the argument. Try though to avoid putting "wet paint" signs on everything. How can you not touch it?

Gotta agree with botrh of the above.

The thing I am amazed at is that none of you has said a word about the Great wall of China.

Any Caches there? :antenna:

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...it is very difficult to then replace the stones in exactly the same way.

I find the case you are making to be quite silly indeed. Is it really a problem that a couple of stones have been shifted in a stone wall out in the middle of the woods that no human being would ever notice? This is hardly a cause for concern and hardly worthy of even a passing thought.

 

Hobbyists (in any hobby) tend to create superfluous, self-defeating "rules and regulations" when they are too deepy entrenched. This is clearly one of them.

I am betting you are a republican

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...it is very difficult to then replace the stones in exactly the same way.

I find the case you are making to be quite silly indeed. Is it really a problem that a couple of stones have been shifted in a stone wall out in the middle of the woods that no human being would ever notice? This is hardly a cause for concern and hardly worthy of even a passing thought.

 

Hobbyists (in any hobby) tend to create superfluous, self-defeating "rules and regulations" when they are too deepy entrenched. This is clearly one of them.

I am betting you are a republican

I *AM* a Republican. Keep the politics in the Off Topic forum or somewhere else please.

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...it is very difficult to then replace the stones in exactly the same way.

I find the case you are making to be quite silly indeed. Is it really a problem that a couple of stones have been shifted in a stone wall out in the middle of the woods that no human being would ever notice? This is hardly a cause for concern and hardly worthy of even a passing thought.

 

Hobbyists (in any hobby) tend to create superfluous, self-defeating "rules and regulations" when they are too deepy entrenched. This is clearly one of them.

I am betting you are a republican

I *AM* a Republican. Keep the politics in the Off Topic forum or somewhere else please.

He must be thinking of "tear down this wall" :D

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Needless to say, a lot of stones in the wall got moved around. The stone referred to wasn't even in the wall. When I visited the cache, I rebuilt the damage to the wall, but didn't find the cache. On a second visit I did find the cache, and the damage to the wall was worse. I rebuilt it again...

Sounds like email to owner time, stating the problem and perhaps suggestions for a solution.

 

That particular cache has been archived. The logs in it reflect what a problem removing rocks from the wall was, with specific intructions to leave the wall alone. Trouble was, with the clue being "move a small stone and there it is" people moved the first ones that they saw, which was the rock fence.

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SAVE THE ROCKS!

 

good god. This is silly. While we're at it, lets stop using ammo cans as containers, as they are valuble historic relics from our military history.

 

If you want to save stone walls, then lets get devolpers to stop tearing them apart while building condos and million dollar houses that are being built in the middle of the woods. Also, no more golf courses, ski areas, roads, or airports......

 

:unsure:

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SAVE THE ROCKS!

 

good god. This is silly. While we're at it, lets stop using ammo cans as containers, as they are valuble historic relics from our military history.

 

If you want to save stone walls, then lets get devolpers to stop tearing them apart while building condos and million dollar houses that are being built in the middle of the woods. Also, no more golf courses, ski areas, roads, or airports......

 

:unsure:

Missing the point...

 

The original post was simply a recommendation that we not hasten the demise of the old stone walls. This has nothing to do with developers, or "progress" or anything else - just a "Hey, as GEOCACHERS, lets not go out of our way to move the stones around."

 

Perhaps we need to remember that not everyone who plays this sport has been doing it for very long, or maybe is still kinda young and not thinking of conservation issues, or is overzealous - whatever. It was reminder, and as usual people feel the need to get all crazy with the sarcasm....

 

One of my first hides was in a stone wall - I was a noob, and I thought it was a great hide. In a matter of a few months, the wall, (in a nature preserve and certainly old) had been torn apart by overzealous (and most likely noob) cachers. And when I say "torn apart" I mean that that section of the wall was now collapsing. I moved the cache and did my best to repair the damage - and I felt bad that I had placed the cache in the wall in the first place. Sometimes being "responsible" means making things "idiotproof" - as unfortunate as that may be.

 

So, no, not all the walls are "special," and certainly not all of them will be there forever - for whatever reason - but we don't need to be part of the destruction, IMHO.

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I admit I haven't finished reading the previous comments. However, I found a cache on Maui next to a rock wall that was being destroyed by geocachers because it was listed as a regular cache, but had been replaced with one of those fake stone key holders sitting on the ground next to the wall (without an update to the listing). Just another actual instance... A subsequent finder thought to solve the problem by putting it in a crevice in the wall!? Better to archive than not maintain the listing...

Edited by edchen
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The average cacher is just too stupid to handle a stone wall cache. It's better as cache owners not to do them. This is also true of some short regaining walls that have a capstone in them and a hollow space underneath. Cachers can't replace the retaining wall as found and they look like someone shook them up and none of the pieces fit right when they are done.

 

As for the wall itself. I really don't care of the property owner builds them up or tears them down. It's their choice. Geocachers though and especially the ones who don't log just don't seem to get the concept it would take to respect the wall as they found it.

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In the UK you are not allowed to place a cache within a Dry Stane Wall. A lot of them have been around before Christopher Columbus was a twinkle in his Dad's eye? A large percentage of the UK's landowners want to keep it that way too.

 

Listen to this radio interview I done last August. Take note the point that the presenter asks me about placing caches within walls. This question was not pre-planned, it just so happened we were walking past one at the time, and he came out with it.

 

Hopefully it will give you some sort of an idea, of how important they are within the UK, and one day they may be that important in America, therefore as responsible individuals we should be protecting what may be a protected piece of history in years to come.

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For the curious:

 

Malabar Farm State Park - 4050 Bromfield Road, Lucas, Ohio

 

According to one of the movie websites, this was the location of the rock wall from the end of that movie. I guess it is not in Maine. There are some caches in that park but none of them mention the movie, or on Waymarking for that matter.

 

I saw a trivia item that said that they built that rock wall for the movie, which might mean they also dismantled it after the shoot was over.

 

I'm not sure how accurate these sources are. I am not from that area. We do have plenty of old stone walls in the Hudson Valley. It doesn't seem like a stone wall has ever stopped a developer from clearing the area for new housing or commercial space. I've found a few caches in stone walls but they were placed in gaps so no rocks had to be moved to hide or find the cache. It would be nice for the owner to make note of this in the description but that might be giving away too much information on the location of the cache. That is part of the puzzle sometimes, is it in the wall or not? I simply don't move any stones in my search. You can usually see into them enough to see that there is no cache in there without moving anything. And I wouldn't put a cache in a stone wall when I eventually place one. There are too many other good hiding places, such as dead trees/stumps, or under larger unmovable rocks that have small overhangs and gaps, or something more creative.

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I'm not sure how accurate these sources are. I am not from that area. We do have plenty of old stone walls in the Hudson Valley. It doesn't seem like a stone wall has ever stopped a developer from clearing the area for new housing or commercial space. I've found a few caches in stone walls but they were placed in gaps so no rocks had to be moved to hide or find the cache. It would be nice for the owner to make note of this in the description but that might be giving away too much information on the location of the cache. That is part of the puzzle sometimes, is it in the wall or not? I simply don't move any stones in my search. You can usually see into them enough to see that there is no cache in there without moving anything. And I wouldn't put a cache in a stone wall when I eventually place one. There are too many other good hiding places, such as dead trees/stumps, or under larger unmovable rocks that have small overhangs and gaps, or something more creative.

 

Whoa! This was a great debate. So great, I'm not even sure what side of the fence I'm on, pun intended. The thread was mainly about New England, but these things are all over New York and Pennsylvania as well. Probably more widespread than that too. The handfull of stone wall caches I've found have been tastefully placed, and the only micro I'm aware of has a "disclaimer". I do know of one in my area (in a park), where a nearby neighbor put up a sign something to the effect of "The Catch (sic) has been removed. Please do not destroy the historic stone wall".

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...it is very difficult to then replace the stones in exactly the same way.

I find the case you are making to be quite silly indeed. Is it really a problem that a couple of stones have been shifted in a stone wall out in the middle of the woods that no human being would ever notice? This is hardly a cause for concern and hardly worthy of even a passing thought.

 

Hobbyists (in any hobby) tend to create superfluous, self-defeating "rules and regulations" when they are too deepy entrenched. This is clearly one of them.

 

Not true! Here in Napa Valley, California (where we have our share of stacked stone walls) many stone walls are protected by County or local laws and you could wind up with a hefty fine or in some instances, jail time, for disturbing them.

 

This is no idle idea,

 

DCC

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Quick Google search reveals that many if not most of these walls have no mortar, are low to the ground, are little more than a stack of stones taken out of a nearby field to make the field farmable.....(please correct me if I am wrong)

I don't believe these walls are particularly rare or important relics, and they will gradually deteriorate and eventually disappear. But there's no sense in hastening their demise through sheer callousness. There's no place else to hide a cache?

 

are they any lamp posts nearby? :laughing:

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Quick Google search reveals that many if not most of these walls have no mortar, are low to the ground, are little more than a stack of stones taken out of a nearby field to make the field farmable.....(please correct me if I am wrong)

Agreed, basically, they are just rock piles on the edge of what used to be a field, not even a property line, or anything as grand as some would hope (a great Revolutionary War battle) more like somewhere to put the rocks and hopefully they would keep the cows in/out. If you have a backyard garden.... and you take out stones to make the soil easier to plant.... does your rock pile now have signifigance? LOL

 

Move a stone two inches every day and see how far away it gets from it's original spot.  Did you notice that part about this being illegal in some places?  I have not seen these stone walls, having never been to New England.  I hope, however, that if I ever get out there they won't all be destroyed by someone who doesn't relize how special they are.

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For those who have not been to New England, here is what a typical stone wall looks like. There are thousands of miles of them in the woods. They are not rare and most have no real historical value and go unnoticed. These stones were the bane of farmers who dug them up with their plows every spring and dumped them along these walls. What amazes me every time I see one is the size and weight of some of the rocks and how strong those farmers must have been...Their true significence may be that because of the difficulty of farming in New England and dealing with all these darned rocks, it helped encourage Westward Expansion to the more fertile (and less rocky) farmland in the Midwest. These stone walls are all in various states of decomposition anyway and I really doubt caching will cause any major destruction of these walls.

 

Agreed with as above,

 

Where I dont think disassembling a wall to hide or find a cache is nessecary, or even smart. An obvious wall feature ( change in direction, obvious high spot, an opening large enough to hold a cache - w/o disassembly of stones, a tree growing out of center, etc) might be an OK place to hide.

 

The biggest threat to the walls, and the enviroment they are in is ...... low-life developers. Crappy low quality yuppie eyesores known as"Rural Towne House Condo Communities" ...>kaack!< "I want to live in the country....but yet still have neighbors I cant stand living so slose next to me with walls so thin I can see through them..." DEE DEE DEE!! :) (oh and never actually go outside into the "wilderness") anyways I digress...LOL

 

I come across them all the time and usually have to find a safe place to cross, which means; riding back and forth to find a safe enough place to let the horse cross, this usually means, a spot where ATVs tore a spot in the wall :laughing: and it has worn down or a natural opening.

 

But the idiots who "would tear it apart if I couldnt find a cache..." WTF is wrong with you? go play sudoku if you are that OCD. Do you also pull shingles off a building for a micro?? You would get about 3 of the smaller stones off and quit, blame muggles in the log, or move on to next cache in your "power run".

 

IF YOU CANT FIND A NATURAL FEATURE IN A WALL TO PLACE A CACHE WITHOUT ANY DISTURBANCE...KEEP GOING UNTILL YOU FIND A BETTER PLACE FOR A CACHE. There that is an easy enough guideline.

 

(((oh and Btw....I have built fieldstone walls, repaired field walls, cleared stones from fields/grounds, If you are in the Northern NJ area, -Montclair and surrounding areas--- most of those stone walls where built by my Grandfather and Great Grandfather {not just them, thier company LOL} It aint an easy thing to do, most of them would crush a cache, maybe even an ammo can too.

 

just dont be a back end of a equine... dont destroy just to hide your tupperware full of keychains OK?

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We have stone walls in my area that are part of the norm for how the area looks. It dates back from the 1800s when the are was settled.

 

There was a cache placed at a historical marker that had a stone wall around it. The clue aluded to the fact that when a stone was moved, you would find the cache. Needless to say, a lot of stones in the wall got moved around. The stone referred to wasn't even in the wall. When I visited the cache, I rebuilt the damage to the wall, but didn't find the cache. On a second visit I did find the cache, and the damage to the wall was worse. I rebuilt it again and put something of a spoiler in the logs telling people to leave the wall alone.

This is exactly why caches by walls flat out suck. Even with permission the owner needs to know that finders will do this. I hate even retaining wall hide because of this.

 

If you want to bring cachers to a wall hide the cache far enough away so they don't look in the wall for the cache.

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I believe it was about a year and a half ago when a local politician (Massachusetts) got into some legal hotwater as well as some bad press. His crime was that he spent a fair amount of his own money and resources to restore a stone wall on his own property.

 

:laughing:

On your own property you can do as you please with your wall. You can't control the controversy but it is your wall to do as you will with.

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I've seen 2 stone walls that were seriously damaged by caches hidden in them.

 

people do pull rocks out to try and find the cache. One person doing this would be damage, 50 or 100 people doing it over several years is catastrophic. One cache will do more damage than 100 years of the elements.

 

I don't see it changing. Those geocachers with a feeling of entitlement, or "I can put a cache anywhere I please regardless of consequences" will always exist.

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Living in NY and caching througout NY, NJ, CT, MA, etc - We run into many caches hidden on or near stone walls. Most of the ones we have chosen to do state "no need to move any rocks to find cache", "NOT hidden IN wall - do not touch wall", "hidden NEAR, not IN wall", etc. There was one in the Syracuse area that we recently decided not to do - not only was it hidden in a stone wall, the stone wall was part of a historic site. Although we just moved on and didn't post a note - several others posted a note regarding the choice of location - GC15RWG.

 

The day we were there it was obvious some type of searching had been done on the wall and the site is also on a very busy corner in plain sight. Although I don't like the idea of imposing rules on a hobby such as ours - as cachers, we do need to be repsonsible and remember to hide and search responsibly - taking care not to disturb or destory.

 

Just our 2 cents. :mad:

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...it is very difficult to then replace the stones in exactly the same way.

I find the case you are making to be quite silly indeed. Is it really a problem that a couple of stones have been shifted in a stone wall out in the middle of the woods that no human being would ever notice? This is hardly a cause for concern and hardly worthy of even a passing thought.

 

I am horrified by all the statements about New England stone walls being of no worth. This attitude reflects VERY poorly on geocachers. Stone walls are the symbol of New England and they are disappearing at at alarming rate. They are being razed for development, sold to landscaping companies and increasingly the rocks are being stolen from the side of the road. Now they are fall apart in places because of geocaches and letterboxes.

 

Residents of these communities struggle to preserve these historic structures. There are books, websites and city ordinances devoted to preserving the walls. I work for a Conservation Commission that takes great pains to try and preserve them whenever possible.

 

So what if some walls are in the middle of the woods where "no one can see them"? How is that an excuse to destroy them? I like walking in the middle of the woods and I enjoy seeing these walls and imagining some farmer stacking the rocks in the middle of the winter to get away from his wife. Just because certain individuals have no appreciation for historical walls does not mean that feeling is shared by others - don't destroy something just because YOU don't care about it. Others do.

 

I am not opposed to caches or letterboxes hidden in stone walls IF they are done in such a way that seekers know exactly where to look and are not tempted to start moving rocks around. At the top of the cache page should be a message "DO NOT MOVE ROCKS IN THE WALL". Or, the cache can be behind a very distinctive rock. However it is done, it must be crystal clear that people should not be moving the rock around or threatening the integrity of the wall. If it looks like people are messing up the wall, move the cache immediately.

 

This problem goes beyond actual hides in the walls. I just about had to remove someone's cache on city property recently because a seeking cacher dismantled a wall (and then kindly rebuilt it). However, the cache was no where near the wall. The problem was a poor signal in the area combined with no hint (the cache was actually in a tree). The wall was over 100 feet away from the hide, yet it was getting dismantled.

 

Frankly, this disrespectful attitude is why geocaching was banned from National Parks and may be banned in the future from other parks as well. Cachers have a responsibility to respect all property and structures and I am very disheartened at all the comments from cachers who feel they have the right to do otherwise.

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I believe it was about a year and a half ago when a local politician (Massachusetts) got into some legal hotwater as well as some bad press. His crime was that he spent a fair amount of his own money and resources to restore a stone wall on his own property.

 

;)

On your own property you can do as you please with your wall. You can't control the controversy but it is your wall to do as you will with.

 

I can tell you for sure certain that that just isn't true. In New England, there are hundreds of historic old pre and post revolutionary war stone fences. And it doesn't matter whose land that they are on, you cannot alter them without express written permission. This is not unusual at all, especially in historic areas of the country. In some places they are referred to as building codes or more likely would fall into the category of covenants, conditions & restrictions.

 

Further, you can't build any structure, fence or otherwise, that affects things such as a natural drainage.

 

Where people come up with these notions is always a curiosity to me.

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I've found one or two of these wall caches when I was out east. I rather enjoyed these caches and wouldn't mind finding a few more. If I recall, there were many previous visitors before me. The walls didn't look disturbed to me, it just looked like a wall made out of rocks. I equate this to someone trying to preserve all chain link fences several hundred years from now. ;);)

 

Don't start. I've got a cache I hid in a chain link fence.

 

There are a few caches in stones walls around here. I'm pretty sure that *all* of them stipulate in the listing that you don't need to move any rocks to find the cache. I have also seen caches place "near" rock walls with evidence of people searching in the rock wall.

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I've found one or two of these wall caches when I was out east. I rather enjoyed these caches and wouldn't mind finding a few more. If I recall, there were many previous visitors before me. The walls didn't look disturbed to me, it just looked like a wall made out of rocks. I equate this to someone trying to preserve all chain link fences several hundred years from now. ;);)

 

Don't start. I've got a cache I hid in a chain link fence.

 

There are a few caches in stones walls around here. I'm pretty sure that *all* of them stipulate in the listing that you don't need to move any rocks to find the cache. I have also seen caches place "near" rock walls with evidence of people searching in the rock wall.

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The apparent disdain that some geocachers have wrt historic preservation, I quite frankly find shocking.

 

You'd think that it would be quite the opposite. But I do suppose that there are instances where historic preservation might interfere with geocache placement. And when viewed in that light, it is easily understandable and excusable.

Edited by Team Cotati
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