Did The Usc&gs Use Regular Odometers?

[Photobuff]

Just curious- did the descriptions from 1942 rely on regular old automotive and truck odometers, just like ours today (ok, not the digital ones), or did they have some other method.

 

I'm looking for a mark on a very hilly dirt road, and the thought occurs to me that the length of the road on a map is probably shorter than the length you'd measure if you went by the odometer (the wrinkled ribbon effect). Since they only gave the location as 0.4 miles, I'm assuming it could be anywhere between 0.35 and 0.45, or even a bit more, and that this is an odometer distance, which will be slightly different than measured on an aerial photo or topo map.

 

The more I do this, the more amazed I am at the changes in the countryside over the years. So much farmland is now forested, and so many barns, sheds, and other small buildings are gone without a trace. Almost every road has been improved and sliced down on hills and built up in low spots.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Photobuff,

 

What we have found with benchmarks from the early 30's is they must have used the odometer of their work trucks.

 

When we find 2 of a series of scaled marks we can then extrapolate the adjustment needed for the rest of that series.

 

We find 1 or 2 then go to the starting point for their measurements and check the distance to the found mark. This gives the reference needed to measure out the distances for the rest of that run.

 

The distance from the starting point may have changed some but the measurement will be off the same amount for each mark of that series.

 

Hope this helps,

 

John

[Z15]

How would they use an truck odometer along a Railroad?

[Z15]

..

Edited January 10, 2006 by Z15

[Photobuff]

OK, I'll bite... How did they measure long distances along RRs? Do locomotives have odometers? Obviously they didn't have mile long tapes, and there's no easy line of sight. Remember, I'm not a surveyor and don't even play one on TV

[+Klemmer]

Ever seen those bicycle wheel looking thingies with a handle & odometer? Police use them for accident investigations. I bet surveyors used those, whatever they are called, off-roads.

Edited January 10, 2006 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

[ArtMan]

That's apparently right. A little Googling turned up these —

 

Trundle wheel or perambulator

For early surveying work the perambulator was used to measure distances. It was pushed along and the number of revolutions of the wheel counted either manually (room for lots of error) or by an odometer attached to the frame. Depending on the radius of the wheel distance could then be determined by calculating circumference × number of revolutions.

>> http://education.qld.gov.au/curriculum/are...ying/suequ.html

 

In 1675 Ogilby published, to 'Great Applause', the Britannia - a Geographical and Historical Description of the Principal Roads thereof consisting of 100 maps of the principal roads of England and Wales, engraved in strip form, giving details of the roads themselves and descriptive notes of the country on either side, each strip having a compass rose to indicate changes of direction. According to advertisement his survey was said to have measured over 25,000 miles of road (in fact, the maps covered 7,500 miles), all surveyed on foot, of course, with a 'perambulator' or measuring wheel to log the distances from place to place. He used throughout the standard mile of 1,760 yards, which had been introduced by statute in 1593 but which had never supplanted the old long, middle and short miles, an endless source of confusion to travellers. There were four issues of the Britannia in 1675-76 and a reprint in 1698.

>> http://www.antiquemaps.co.uk/chapter5.html

 

Unfortunately, I couldn't find any illustrations of antique measuring wheels.

 

-ArtMan-

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

OK, I'll bite... How did they measure long distances along RRs? Do locomotives have odometers? Obviously they didn't have mile long tapes, and there's no easy line of sight...

Railroads had their surveyors place mileposts along the tracks for referencing. Long distances along tracks are measured using those posts.

 

Obviously, surveyors did not have mile long tapes. 100, 200, or 300 foot tapes are the norm now. Years ago survey chains measuring 66 feet in length were used. While it may be difficult to imagine, the lands in the PLSS states were measured using a survey chain, one mile at a time, very accurately. It is possible to measure between railroad mileposts using the same methods whether or not there is line of sight.

 

Truck odometers could still be used when it was possible.

 

- Kewaneh

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

How would they use an truck odometer along a Railroad?

 

Most railroads we have been around do have drives running parallel to the tracks along much of their right-of-way. There are some stretches that don't have the drive, but quite a few do.

 

John

[+GeckoGeek]

How would they use an truck odometer along a Railroad?

There are special trucks that are adapted to running on the rails. Although unless the surveyors worked for the railroad, I don't think it too likely they would have one of those.

[mloser]

Gecko,

 

I am willing to bet that in ancient times (1960s and prior) survey parties were given railroad escort and a railcar to use while on their missions. To set some of these marks rails would be the only way to get where they were going. I have found some benchmarks in fairly inaccessible places, and been unable to get to some others (yet!) because there are no roads within a reasonable distance.

 

Currently railroads use trucks adapted to run both on and off rails. They are standard work trucks with rail wheels that can be raised and lowered as necessary. In the past, railcars were more commonly used. These were custom vehicles with just rail wheels that ran along the rails. They range from tiny one and two man vehicles to much larger. The smaller ones were meant to be lifted from the rails when not in use. Thus a crew could go to a work location and remove the railcar from the track so that trains could pass, then replace it to continue to the next job site or home. For some pics of railcars go to Narcoa, a North American club of owners of these vehicles. Note that these little trucks would often pull trailers too.

 

The setting of survey marks along railroads was a symbiotic relationship. The survey crew got what they hoped would be stable settings for their marks--after all, the railroads had been there for over 100 years, why would they ever go away? And the railroads got accurate survey marks to use when they needed them. Railroads live and die by the "grade", which is the amount of slope in a track, and the more accurately they could map it the better off they were (actually, ARE... grades are still as important as ever). Also, railroad clearances are very tight, so no movement of the railbed could happen without accurate measurements of elevation.

 

Oh, do the railcars have odometers? I couldn't find any info on whether they did or not, but first of all, these tiny cars were built without many (ANY!) amenities. Many are totally open, most have windshields, and a few are enclosed. Chances are the extra expense to install an odometer wasn't even considered. Until diesels came along in the 1940s and 1950s locomitives rarely had speedometers. The engineer determined the speed by the timing between mileposts. There are charts of times-per-mile in many railroad publications, including the train crews' time books, on which they kept track of their mileage and hours (most road crews were paid by the mile, not by the hour). So any engineer worth his salt in the 40s could tell you how fast he was going if he went a mile in 78 seconds. Some railroads installed "fractional" mileposts. The Reading did this, at least the datasheets refer to them, but I have never seen one of them. They would have been 1/10 mile markers much like you can see along modern highways.

[Z15]

They used a Velocipede to run the rails.

 

Go to NGS and click on history..

 

Edited January 16, 2006 by Z15

[mloser]

Z15,

 

Velocipedes were three wheeled, hand powered tricycles used for one man to get around on the rails. They were used from about 1900 until the early 1960s, but mostly through the earlier years of the 20th century. The use of one usually entailed setting it on the track and going, and either knowing the train schedule or watching carefully. It could be removed from the track fairly quickly by the rider by tipping it over if necessary.

 

That picture appears to show either a speeder trailer or a small speeder--I was pretty sure it was a small speeder until I saw what looks like a drawbar--a connection--from that car to the right, implying there is something out of the frame of the picture that is part of this small set of cars.

 

The captions on the pictures at Getting There by Velocipede describe all the pictures as velocipedes but a couple, including the one you linked to, are not. Photos 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8 show velocipedes but the rest show speeders or trailers. Photo 7 seems to show some sort of push handcar, possibly a trailer they are simply pushing along, although in that image they are either putting it on the track or removing it.

 

A clear picture of one is at Velocipede

[+GeckoGeek]

Chances are the extra expense to install an odometer wasn't even considered.

What do you bet that if a odometer was the easier way to go that someone would have found a way to add one? I work hard at being lazy and I'll bet those guys aren't a whole lot different. For the ones where they only needed an approximate distance, maybe they estimated it from the number of rail junctions after a milepost. (Give new meaning to "3 kicks north" )

[Z15]

Z15,

 

Velocipedes were three wheeled, hand powered tricycles used for one man to get around on the rails. They were used from about 1900 until the early 1960s, but mostly through the earlier years of the 20th century. The use of one usually entailed setting it on the track and going, and either knowing the train schedule or watching carefully. It could be removed from the track fairly quickly by the rider by tipping it over if necessary.

 

That picture appears to show either a speeder trailer or a small speeder--I was pretty sure it was a small speeder until I saw what looks like a drawbar--a connection--from that car to the right, implying there is something out of the frame of the picture that is part of this small set of cars.

 

The captions on the pictures at Getting There by Velocipede describe all the pictures as velocipedes but a couple, including the one you linked to, are not. Photos 1, 2, 3, 4 and 8 show velocipedes but the rest show speeders or trailers. Photo 7 seems to show some sort of push handcar, possibly a trailer they are simply pushing along, although in that image they are either putting it on the track or removing it.

 

A clear picture of one is at Velocipede

Its a motorized version......

Edited January 17, 2006 by Z15

[mloser]

I analyzed the picture more and yep, it IS motorized. It looks like it has a Mudge engine--the word Mudge is visible to the left of center on the right vehicle. I can also see the controls to the right--two handles.

 

However, it definitely isn't a velocipede, which is a three-wheeled vehicle. It is a railcar, or what has been known simply as a "speeder".

 

Gecko, I am willing to bet some crews cobbled together an odometer of sorts, but remember that these small cars were loaned to the survey crew to do their work so they would not have had the time or resources to do something lasting. As near as I can tell by reading some Speeder group discussion threads they never came with any sort of speed or distance devices (which would make sense to me as the railroads never put them on any vehicles). Some of the discussion groups discussed gauging speed and distance by counting rail clicks, which is possible but tedious.

[Z15]

Distance can by computed by stadia which many survey instruments are capable of. 2 extra cross hairs in the telescope set equi-distance above and below the center cross so that when the difference in rod reaing is 1 ft, the distance of 100 ft, 1.5 ft = 150 ft etc. So its possible to determine the distance leveled.

Edited January 17, 2006 by Z15

[+Klemmer]

Aha! An optical rangefinder! I've used those in those in the military for "other things".

Good old optics, now replaced by lasers. Huh.

[mapjunkie]

Z15,

 

Is that all that's necessary to read stadia? When I was surveying, I never had occasion to learn, but I always figured that there was some esoteric calculation involved.

 

Who knew?

 

-Matt

[Photobuff]

This is all facinating stuff! I've thought about making a giant rangefinder out of some rectangular tubing and some mirrors and prisms. Just like a camera, only maybe a foot or two long.

[Bill93]

The precise leveling procedure required them to balance the foresight and backsight distances in order to minimize the effects of earth curvature and refraction, even though those effects were also corrected by formula.

 

They read all 3 hairs to their best possible precision. Besides getting the stadia distance, it also checked for reading errors if the average of the top and bottom hairs did not match the middle one.

 

So they had distance traveled, which if it was along the RR would give them the distance from the station, after a units conversion.

 

Most of the data sheets opn RR's around here give distance in miles and tenths, and also in telegraph pole spacings from the nearest milepost that the RR had set. (Poles most often 40 per mile, sometimes other spacing).

 

In that picture, does the car have mountings to put the tripod legs in, so they could leave the instrument set up and just move the car? Nice for the instrument man, although he still had to relevel the head at every stop. Then the tripod would come off at a town where they leveled to city hall or post office. Wouldn't the jarring of rail joints be hard on the instrument?

 

Mounting it on the car probably wouldn't add a lot of speed to the operation since a rod man still had to make perhaps a 600 ft jaunt (2x 100 meter sight distances, later less) between rod positions. The instructions I've seen indicate both the fore and back rod men were to be in position when they started taking readings, so they could be done with minimum time between for the sights.

[Z15]

Z15,

 

Is that all that's necessary to read stadia? When I was surveying, I never had occasion to learn, but I always figured that there was some esoteric calculation involved.

 

Who knew?

 

-Matt

I should note that not all instuments are set to the same spec. for stadia and you have to determine that by testing if its not known.

 

For instance we had 2 levels at work, both were Zeiss Ni2 models (in addition to digital levels by Topcon and Wild with the Wild being a more user friendly leve)l.

 

With one when taped out 100 ft the difference in the top and bottom rod reading on a 3-wire level would be 1 ft (1.0 stadia factor) and the other it would only be 33 ft (0.3 stadia factor). Stadia factor of 1 is the norm but when our dpet bought the levels years ago the distributor stuck in 1 with the .3 factor and of some 25 crews, we ended up with it.

Edited January 18, 2006 by Z15