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Gps Emergency Locator


DiverMan

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Hi All,

 

As a cub scout leader, my boys will be becoming more active in the outdoors (camping, hiking and the like). I have seen in the past a GPS emergency becon locator where in an emergency, you push a button, it sends a signal to a satalite that notifies emergency people of your location. I am interested in getting one for my den (one can never be "over prepared").

 

Does anyone have any links or info on this?

 

Thanks...

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REI has these I have given some though to. A bit pricey.... Remember a ELT is a radio transmitter. SOME have GPS's built-in, SOME have an interface to connect an external GPS to, and SOME (older) are just transmitters (which would require the rescue folks to tri-angulate or home-in on your position. As always, you get what you pay for. Now - if Garmin would integrate an ELT into the next Rhino or Giraffe, or whatever...
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Thanks,

 

Yeah they are a bit pricey but compare that with a childs safety!!! I will see if a fund raiser would help.

 

Thanks again.

Where are you planning to take Cubs that an ELT would be justified? (based on the cost)

 

Given their age ranges, I wouldn't think you'd be far enough from civilization to ever worry about being that out of touch. I think any funds raised could be better.

 

Just my $.02

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Thanks,

 

Yeah they are a bit pricey but compare that with a childs safety!!!  I will see if a fund raiser would help.

 

Thanks again.

Where are you planning to take Cubs that an ELT would be justified? (based on the cost)

 

Given their age ranges, I wouldn't think you'd be far enough from civilization to ever worry about being that out of touch. I think any funds raised could be better.

 

Just my $.02

Kids get lost all the time, no matter how far from civilization. Wasn't there a kid lost for a few days out west last year that was out with a group of scouts or whatever?

 

As a dispatcher we have kids that get lost through out our park system often enough that it would save a lot of time/ money if they had one. Doesn't happen every day but you get the message. This even has happened with adults where they were lost all night and lucky that they were not dead because it was winter time.

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I gained a lot of initial outdoor skill and leadership in the Scouting program as a young man. Two of those important skills were risk assessment and contingency planning. An ELT or EPIRB has a place in wilderness travel, however I don't think the places it would be proper are appropriate to Cub Scouts.

 

Other forms of contingency planning e.g. additional adult leadership on trips, selection of age appropritate destinations, etc. would be more relevant to the education of the young future leaders. Providing their wilderness travel education is as important as providing for their safety in an emergecy. They must learn to travel safely and independently without expectation of being saved from their mistakes by someone else.

 

I do not intend insult nor the implication the following is the case for your Scouting endeavors. The following is my observation about many urban weekend warriors or wilderness wanna-be's. Reliance on outside rescue seems to be a common feature in too many outdoor travelers today. Rather than learning the relevant skills of the art and planning trips appropriately to their parties skill levels, they relay on mechanical or electronic methods to extract themselves from the difficulties resultant from their failures. This often puts innocent third party rescuers at risk and is irresponsible.

 

Jim

MagicTogether - Alaska

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Not being a smart @ss and I love kids (they go great with caviar) (no really I am ... err have a 3 year old cacher of my own) but shouldn't a scout know how to use a compass? Another thing to think about, how would you know which kid was going to get lost so you could let him hold the GPS? :huh:

 

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea. Although my post may not reveal that. It would be good to have if the whole group got trapped somewhere.

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DiverMan: I think you got more than you bargained for here, unless you WANTED a debate on the potential usefulness of personal ELT's in scouting. Remember, down at the bottom left, you do have a moderator option to close (lock) the thread. I'm not saying you should (I am NOT a moderator), but this thread has gone off the rails a bit..... Anyone have more source info for DiverMan?

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I really appreciate all the feed back provided.

 

The PLB is thought to be an "addition" to the equipment to keep the boys safe (i.e. first aid kit, proper planning, etc). This is not intended for a unit for each boy nor is it a replacement for other basic skills. There was an incedent last summer in the Sierra Nevada's where a group of boy scouts were struck by lightning. A couple died I believe. I have taught (and plan on teaching) the basics of compass use, map reading, and how to use a GPS. Not to mention, safety skills. You know: STOP (Stop, Think, Observe, Plan) All skills I think are needed to encourage confidence and safety in the wild. There is no greater tool than knowledge. Couple that with "tools of the trade".

 

I don't think there is any harm to (to use a common phrase in the scouts ) "be prepared". I would hate to be in a situation where I would say "I wish I only had..." or "I wish I thought of that..."

 

What would it hurt????

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DiverMan: I think you got more than you bargained for here, unless you WANTED a debate on the potential usefulness of personal ELT's in scouting. Remember, down at the bottom left, you do have a moderator option to close (lock) the thread. I'm not saying you should (I am NOT a moderator), but this thread has gone off the rails a bit..... Anyone have more source info for DiverMan?

Hi Klemmer,

 

I don't see anything wrong with a "healthy debate". I will lock it down if it does get "out of control". I am interested it what other's have experienced as well.

 

Thanks for your input!!!!

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One thing that nobody mentioned (probably because u specifically asked about an ELT) is a "GPS wristwatch" which is made as a tracking system for children. While it does require a subscription, the hardware itself is significantly less in price than $500. Last I heard they were in the under $200 range. You can see where they are on a laptop and the watch has a "panic botton" feature. basically, it's like an Onstar for kids. I can't find the link now but do a Google and see what u get.

 

edit:

However, after some research. I found that "Wherify", the company that manufactured the wristwatch is no longer selling/supporting them and have replaced them with a cell phone w/built in locator.

 

The Wherify Satellite GPS Child Locator Watch was designed as a Child Locator Device capable of operating over long distances; however, after extensive testing, BrickHouse Security has decided not to sell the Wherify Locator Wristwatch due to the following reasons:

 

Great idea, but it simply does not work. The technology required is two years away from actually working in the real world.

Battery life is not dependable.

Coverage is not reliable.

Device is bulky and heavy.

No service or support from the manufacturer.

GPS is not the best solution for Child Safety.

BrickHouse Security currently recommends the Ion Kids Child Locator System.

 

We continue to test new products that promise to help parents keep their children safe. However, We do not expect that any manufacturer will be able offer a reliable GPS Tracking Device the size of a wristwatch any time soon. When we find one we are ready to stand behind we will be sure to let you know.

Edited by Crusso
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An EPIRB is way overkill for a Cub Camping trip...

If you follow the Guide to Safe Scouting, (you've been to Cub Master Fundamentals, right?) you shouldn't be taking a Pack or Den anywhere that removed from access to emergency services.

 

The pack's $$ would be better spent on some GMRS radios for the leaders, whistles for the kids, spare sleeping bags for the bed-wetters and some First Responder training.

 

Take it from me (a long time scouter, and one time DE) if you find yourself needing an EPIRB on a Scouting event, something went wrong in the planning phases (IE you should never have been granted a permit by Council, and better hope you have a MOUNTAIN of liability insurance!)

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An EPIRB is way overkill for a Cub Camping trip...

If you follow the Guide to Safe Scouting, (you've been to Cub Master Fundamentals, right?) you shouldn't be taking a Pack or Den anywhere that removed from access to emergency services.

 

The pack's $$ would be better spent on some GMRS radios for the leaders, whistles for the kids, spare sleeping bags for the bed-wetters and some First Responder training.

 

Take it from me (a long time scouter, and one time DE) if you find yourself needing an EPIRB on a Scouting event, something went wrong in the planning phases (IE you should never have been granted a permit by Council, and better hope you have a MOUNTAIN of liability insurance!)

Very good point and thanks for the feedback. Granted most (if not all) of our outings will be no futher than a 30 minute drive from the nearest emergency vacility (sp?) or ranger station. I kinda live by the concept "If you don't have time to do it right the first time, when do you have time to do it over?" or "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine"

 

You know, this started out as a concept for boy/cub scouts but what about in our "caching" adventures as well?

Edited by DiverMan
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Try this:

Safety device

 

Under $200 for the base unit & one watch. Each watch is $50. Monitor up to 4 per base unit. Be able to tell if someone wanders more than 300' away.

 

Features

Base Unit

 

Easily carry in purse or pocket; Base Unit is the size of a small TV remote (1 1/2" x 6")

Allows parents to monitor up to 4 Bracelets simultaneously (additional Bracelets sold as an option.)

"Return to Base" paging of all monitored Bracelets

Ability to disable an individual Bracelet from the Base Unit

Bracelet Tamper or Removal Alarm

Low Battery Indicator

No batteries required as the Base Unit includes a built-in rechargeable battery that will last 10 Years

Bracelet

 

Tamper-proof

Alarm sounds if Bracelet is removed from child after activated

Fun to wear & requires no interaction from child

Receivable signal to Base Unit up to 350 Feet Outdoors, 200 Feet Indoors

Adjusts to fit snugly on children of different sizes

Includes decorative stickers & 3 additional bezels (red, yellow and blue)

Strong locking mechanism that cannot be easily opened without a key, included with Base Unit

No batteries required as the Bracelet  includes a built-in rechargeable battery that will last 10 Years

Edited by Crusso
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Some additional thoughts...

 

I should state that I have no hands on experience with land-use EPIRBs, only those for maritime use...

 

I cannot begin to count the number of times I've heard CG Stations hailing vessels whose EPIRBs began transmitting unintentionally. This usually results in vessels on standby, birds spinning up on the tarmac, and a lot of nearby vessels prepairing to lend aid. 99% turn out to be false alams, due to faulty units, improper handling or storage. The 1% that I've heard do tend to result in aid on scene asap. Keep in mind, the CG will expect you to present your EPIRB for inspection after a false alarm, and can still fine you.

 

I can only imagine this problem is compounded with a land based use as it is EXTREMELY unlikely a responding agencey is even going to attempt radio contact prior to initiating a response. Fines/penalties would probably be pretty hefty for false alarms.

 

I think a better solution would be a quality GPS, some leaders trained in its use, and a Sat-Phone with some pre-paid minutes for emergency use. Have some 3x5 cards printed with various agencies #'s and laminated...

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DiverMan:  I think you got more than you bargained for here, unless you WANTED a debate on the potential usefulness of personal ELT's in scouting.  Remember, down at the bottom left, you do have a moderator option to close (lock) the thread.  I'm not saying you should (I am NOT a moderator), but this thread has gone off the rails a bit.....  Anyone have more source info for DiverMan?

Hi Klemmer,

 

I don't see anything wrong with a "healthy debate". I will lock it down if it does get "out of control". I am interested it what other's have experienced as well.

 

Thanks for your input!!!!

Nice guy that DiverMan :huh:

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DiverMan:  I think you got more than you bargained for here, unless you WANTED a debate on the potential usefulness of personal ELT's in scouting.  Remember, down at the bottom left, you do have a moderator option to close (lock) the thread.  I'm not saying you should (I am NOT a moderator), but this thread has gone off the rails a bit.....  Anyone have more source info for DiverMan?

Hi Klemmer,

 

I don't see anything wrong with a "healthy debate". I will lock it down if it does get "out of control". I am interested it what other's have experienced as well.

 

Thanks for your input!!!!

Nice guy that DiverMan :huh:

Yeah, I was just trying to keep what I perceived to be a newbie from getting hammered. I guess he can take it! Good info and opinions!

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DiverMan:  I think you got more than you bargained for here, unless you WANTED a debate on the potential usefulness of personal ELT's in scouting.  Remember, down at the bottom left, you do have a moderator option to close (lock) the thread.  I'm not saying you should (I am NOT a moderator), but this thread has gone off the rails a bit.....  Anyone have more source info for DiverMan?

Hi Klemmer,

 

I don't see anything wrong with a "healthy debate". I will lock it down if it does get "out of control". I am interested it what other's have experienced as well.

 

Thanks for your input!!!!

Nice guy that DiverMan :(

Yeah, I was just trying to keep what I perceived to be a newbie from getting hammered. I guess he can take it! Good info and opinions!

Ah, Thanks!!!!!

 

That's the beautiful about forums. Get's too heated?, feels the blood pressure rising? All I have to do is hit the little "X" in the top, right corner of the open window. In this case, I have the "ultimate control" by selecting "close this topic" and say at the same time "This will fix you..." :huh:

 

But really, it's good to have other opinions. I would be a fool not to at least listen and consider different perspectives. I have learned a long time ago that I would learn more by keeping my mouth shut and opening my ears.

 

Take care

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Diverman,

 

I have an old 121.5 manually operated ELT that uses a pair of "D" cells. The 121.5 system is a bit slower to respond than the new 406 system. In addition the 121.5 system only covers North America to a bit South of the US border. The 121.5 system will be decommissioned Feb 1, 2009.

 

That all having been considered, if you're interested in having this older beacon give me a PM and I'll send it to you for cost of postage.

 

I'm glad you are investing time with the Scouts.

 

Jim

MagicTogether - Alaska

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I am an Eagle Scout.

Our troop was very active in high adventure.

 

There was one outing to the boundary waters where a few of use scouts came very close to hypothermia (believe it or not, in June).

We were saved by the worst guide in the world and some great leaders ingenuity.

When we went, there was no contact to the outside world.

The only way they knew you were lost was that you didn't make it back when you permit ran out.

However, since that trip, every time I've though on going on another trip, I've wanted a safety net for that "all else has failed" time.

 

As a lone cacher, I've thought about buying one too.

I've been on a few hunts where I have check to see if the phone worked if everything went wrong on that day.

Especially alone, I'm afraid of tumbling down a hill and sustaining grave injuries and such other imaginable catastrophes where I can't get cell reception.

Obviously this doesn't apply in the short Indiana hikes, but the Missouri and Colorado ones have been challenging at times.

 

I'm still looking.

I don't know if I can justify the cost based on the risks I currently take.

However, I have done some research that I can share.

One of the best resources I have seen is www.Equipped.org

They did two major PLB tests.

The first (http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test_summary.htm) turned up some very badly performing equipment under reasonable test conditions.

The second (http://www.equipped.org/406_beacon_test2_toc.htm) showed that most of the problems have been fixed.

These are long reads, but worth it before dropping $500-600.

 

If I were going to get one today, I would probably buy the McMurdo \ Pains Wessex

Fastfind Plus.

It was one of the worst performers in the first test.

The manufacturer addressed the problems and it now competes well.

 

The big reason I would but it is the promotion they are running.

http://www.reveresupply.com/freebatteries.html

This promotion allows a coupon based battery upgrade for "life".

As replacement batteries are ~$150 dollars each and have to be replaced every five years, this can work out to be a significant savings.

(I haven't found the catch yet. If anyone knows, please let us know. I'm guessing you only have a 60-day window to do the exchange in. If you miss that window 5 years out, you lose out.)

 

This retails for about $550.

http://www.gulf-coast-avionics.com/detail.asp?id=5697

http://store.yahoo.com/landfallnav/spwff1.html

 

I don't know if I can be of any more help (as I don't own one yet), but I'll try.

 

Jon

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Whoa!.....What would an EPIRB do for a pack of Cub Scouts anyway? By time the satellites pick up the signal, the owner is verified, and local S&R resources are notified, you could have saved a lot of time by just making a cell phone call or sending someone out for help. EPIRBs are meant for very remote back country or open ocean life threatening emergency situations that require immediate S&R assistance. It wouldn't save any time at all for a lost scout, and would require that someone (with the EPIRB) stay put for hours, without moving, waiting for S&R to arrive, instead of aiding in the immediate search. Nope...Use this money to buy each scout a simple little etrex and a compass and teach them all how to use them!

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I would have thought the kind of money you are talking about $200-$500, would be better spent on a dozen 0.5W two way radios or something like that.

If the child got lost within a 1/2 hour range, you should have enough time to still be within radio range??

 

I'm not a scout, leader or anything, and I don't know what laws your country has with respect to these little two-way radios, but with a spare set of batteries, you could easily get a days of use from them!

 

Just another angle to consider.

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Just what IS the response time to a land-based EPIRB signal? As I'm once again getting back into the hiking/climbing hobby I'm tempted to pick up a pay-by-the-minute sat phone. Any recommendations on a sat phone too? I think a 4 or 5 watt GMRS radio set would be great for the kiddies too. An epi-pen too.

 

I understand your concern. I don't see how it could hurt, but I can certainly see how it could help! Imagine a lost scout, or a couple of scouts getting injured, or someone has a severe allergic reaction to a bite/food. I'd want to get help to me ASAP.

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Having a few simple GPS units will keep you from getting lost....For emergency situations I don't think the epirb is suited for your use. If you have 10 scouts, they all can't have an EPIRB.....cost prohibits that, but even if you have multiple units, the chance of someone accidentally or unnecessarily triggering one becomes larger. Many people consider the use of one as a "last resort" "dire situation" type need. There have been cases of people using the device when it was not absolutely necessary, and the fellow in question was fined a hefty sum. One fellow, I believe it was out west somewhere, pulled the device because he was caught in a snowsquall. They found him, he looked OK, and deemed while he wasn't in dire danger, they would "let him slide" with regars to unnecessarily triggering the device.....a day or two later he went back to the same area to get his tent and belongings and again triggered the device......this time he was fined..If I remember corrrectly it was around $10,000

I can understand the fact that even in areas that are not "remote", it can take several hours for someone to go get help, or alert others that you need help. Under certain conditions this would be unacceptable. Probably more practical would be a satellite phone......$600 cash outlay and around $35 per month. With the sat phone and a simple GPS, you know where you are and can alert other people where you are. The nice thing about it is you can contact authorities, explain your dilemma in detail so they are prepared when they come. This also lets them decide when an "all-out" effort is required instead of you having to decide whether setting off the EPIRB is required or not. Pull the EPIRB and little cubbie comes walking back into camp, and your going to feel a little uneasy when the chopper arrives for the rescue,......Call them and let them decide (they're trained in this) the seriousness of the situation, and you get the best of both worlds....help arrives without the liability of unwisely triggering the device.

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Arthurking83 mentioned 2-way radios of the 0.5 watt, FRS variety. My opinion that is a better option than the EPIRBs. As a scout leader you could even come up with some games that will teach the boys how to use them. I think they could really have a lot of fun with them, and get to use them and practice with them. Then you as the scout leader could have the means to communicate with the outside world should a real emergency arrise. You could also consider Geko GPSrs that they could use to track their own positions, and you are still out less money than for EPIRBs, and you have given them some tools they can learn on. BTW my hat's off to you working with the scouts!

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