Bingo Cache?

January 8, 2006

The question is simple. Does any of the following cache page offend any of the rules or spirit of geocaching?

Bingo Cache Game

To play this cacheing bingo game, you must complete the following steps:

1) Purchase or supply a $10.00 "ante" to enter the game. Mark your Ante in such a way that it can not be confused with a normal cache trade item.

2) Go to the cache location and take any one of the 15 bingo cards

3) Leave your ANTE (worth a minimum of $10.00) at the cache, sign log

4) Put this Cache on you Watchlist.

5) Log your visit on the cache page being sure to denote which Card you took(there is a number in the center square) and what you have left as an ANTE.

5) WAIT and monitor your e-mail for the numbers to be called.

After 15 people have entered the game (by taking a card and leaving their ante) I will colelct the antes for safe keeping.

After I collect the Antes, I will select the first 10 numbers all at once and post them as a note on this cache page. Thereafter, I will post one number a day until a BINGO is declared. The bingoer must photgraph their card clearly (so I and everyone else can confirm the numbers) and post to the cache page. I cannot guaratee when the numbers will be published given my schedule but I will endeavor to do it in the morning or afternoon.

In the even two people BINGO on the same number, the first to post their picture will win the bounty. In the event some people bingo on the first 10 numbers, the one who bingos first wins (the 1st 10 numbers will be in order of their drawing).

The Winner will win ALL of the Ante which should be worth a minimum of $150.00. Please be courteous to your other players and leave something of valuable to a geocacher or something you yourself would like getting. Gift certicates, lottery tickets, geocaching items, are all wonderful ideas. Past winner of poker are absolutely encouraged to play.

The cache will be open to NON-PLAYERS but please do not take any items desginated clearly as an ANTE. There are currently Trade items in the cache consisting of: Some Voo-doo dol thing, ready-made Peanut Butter Cache, Used Tennis Balls (for the canine friendly), And some other assorted things. BINGO players are welcome to trade as normal in addition to leaving an ante if there is something of particular interest to them.

The winner will claim their bounty at a place convenient to myself and the winner. Questions can be directed to the cache owner.

So . . . Good or Bad? Approvable or not?

1.5k · January 8, 2006

While I don't know that they'd bother with it, most states have laws governing Bingo and "games of chance" that could make this cache problematic.

2.2k · January 8, 2006

and when the cache gets muggled just before you collect all the goodies. what will you use as a prize?????

9.2k · January 8, 2006

While I don't know that they'd bother with it, most states have laws governing Bingo and "games of chance" that could make this cache problematic.

They tend to look the other way when it comes to things like office football pools, as long as it's kept low-key and not flaunted, by, oh I don't know... POSTING IT ON THE INTERNET.

January 8, 2006

C'mon Sing, what could possibly go wrong. They let us do your much celebrated poker caches. You know N2 and I are ready to hunt peanut butter jars

January 8, 2006

Let me be more specific. My question is of course directed more to whethwer or not it should be approced by the Geocaching Administrators not whether it is legal or illegal. Thanks N1, I know you and your better half are always up for the challenge. Apparently thi one is on hold for now.

For my previous "Games" see also:

Poker Game #1 - Ante Cache

Ppoke Game #2 - Ante Cache Number 2

January 8, 2006

I'm not sure what you'll do when somebody's $10 ante gets taken and a McToy is left in exchange, either. Nobody is gonna pass up a $10 goodie, whether they admit it in their log or not.

If this goes ahead, you'd be safer if the antes were $1 items.

9.2k · January 8, 2006

Let me be more specific. My question is of course directed more to whethwer or not it should be approced by the Geocaching Administrators not whether it is legal or illegal.

But it is a legal question. You're trying to turn it into a popularity contest, which it isn't.

January 8, 2006

Let me be more specific. My question is of course directed more to whethwer or not it should be approced by the Geocaching Administrators not whether it is legal or illegal. Thanks N1, I know you and your better half are always up for the challenge. Apparently thi one is on hold for now.

For my previous "Games" see also:

Poker Game #1 - Ante Cache

Ppoke Game #2 - Ante Cache Number 2

I believe part of the concern is the legal issues.

You are saying the reviewers should ignore the fact this might be illegal and list the cache?

If the cache or contents of the cache are illegal then it is an issue.

Per the guidelines:

Cache Contents

Use your common sense in most cases. Explosives, fireworks, ammo, lighters, knives (including pocket knives and multi-tools), drugs, alcohol or other illicit material shouldn't be placed in a cache. As always respect the local laws.

If the original cache contents list any of the above items or other questionable items, or if a cache is reported to have the questionable items, the cache may be disabled, and the owner of the cache will be contacted and asked to remove the questionable items before the cache is enabled.

I would say the reviewers have every right and reason to question a cache that might be illegal. It appears from your statement of, should it be listed even if illegal that you might not agree.

I am sorry to hear this.

January 8, 2006

According to information I found aboput Kentucky state law:

(8) "Profiting from gambling activity" -- A person "profits from gambling activity" when, other than as a player, he accepts or receives or agrees to accept or receive money or other property pursuant to an agreement or understanding with any person whereby he participates or is to participate in the proceeds of gambling activity.

528.020 Promoting gambling in the first degree.

(1) A person is guilty of promoting gambling in the first degree when he knowingly advances or profits from unlawful gambling activity by:

(a) Engaging in bookmaking to the extent that he employs or utilizes three or more persons in a bookmaking activity and receives or accepts in any one day bets totaling more than $500; or

( Receiving in connection with a lottery or mutuel scheme or enterprise:

1. Money or written records from a person other than a player whose chances or plays are represented by such money or records; or

2. More than $500 in any one day of money played in the scheme or enterprise; or

© Setting up and operating a gambling device.

(2) Promoting gambling in the first degree is a Class D felony.

528.030 Promoting gambling in the second degree.

(1) A person is guilty of promoting gambling in the second degree when he knowingly advances or profits from unlawful gambling activity.

(2) Promoting gambling in the second degree is a Class A misdemeanor.

528.040 Conspiracy to promote gambling.

(1) A person is guilty of conspiracy to promote gambling when he conspires to advance or profit from gambling activity.

(2) "Conspire" means to engage in activity constituting a criminal conspiracy as defined in KRS 506.040.

(3) Conspiracy to promote gambling is a Class D felony.

With this being said, if it is an illegal game and if the law was involved, Groundspeak could have issues as they are advertising this illegal game. no?

Since I am not a lawer, this might be why it is under discussion?

1.6k · January 8, 2006

Easiest way to find out if it'd get approved would be to email your local reviewer and ask them directly.

Wulf

38.2k · January 8, 2006

I believe part of the concern is the legal issues.

You are saying the reviewers should ignore the fact this might be illegal and list the cache?

If the cache or contents of the cache are illegal then it is an issue.

While I don't know that they'd bother with it, most states have laws governing Bingo and "games of chance" that could make this cache problematic.

I don't know the laws in all states, but in many states gambling is fine, as long as the "house" isn't taking a cut. Its why you can have your friends over for a poker game or run an office NCAA pool without worrying about the vice squad kicking in your door.

Once the house gets a percentage of the take it's regulated and can be illegal.

Edited January 8, 2006 by briansnat

6.4k · January 8, 2006

I believe part of the concern is the legal issues.

You are saying the reviewers should ignore the fact this might be illegal and list the cache?

If the cache or contents of the cache are illegal then it is an issue.

While I don't know that they'd bother with it, most states have laws governing Bingo and "games of chance" that could make this cache problematic.

I don't know the laws in all states, but in many states gambling is fine, as long as the "house" isn't taking a cut. Its why you can have your friends over for a poker game or run an office NCAA pool without worrying about the vice squad kicking in your door.

Once the house gets a percentage of the take it's regulated and can be illegal.

If I'm reading correctly what Artemis posted, in the hider's state it's a class D felony to promote gambling, even if he doesn't take a cut.

Sounds to me that would make it unapprovable in the hider's state.

That said, it sounds like a fun idea if it were legal, although like others I have serious doubts it would work fairly in 2006. Maybe back in 2001 it would have worked out.

38.2k · January 9, 2006

If I'm reading correctly what Artemis posted, in the hider's state it's a class D felony to promote gambling, even if he doesn't take a cut.

Read the law again. I think it backs up what I said. It defines "promoting gambling" as making money off of it.

Edited January 9, 2006 by briansnat

6.4k · January 9, 2006

If I'm reading correctly what Artemis posted, in the hider's state it's a class D felony to promote gambling, even if he doesn't take a cut.

Read the law again. I think it backs up what I said. It defines "promoting gambling" as making money off of it.

Lets take it apart.

8) "Profiting from gambling activity" -- A person "profits from gambling activity" when, other than as a player, he accepts or receives or agrees to accept or receive money or other property pursuant to an agreement or understanding with any person whereby he participates or is to participate in the proceeds of gambling activity.

This is the legal definition of profit, as it pertains to this law.

The cache hider will be accepting or agreeing to accept money or property in an agreement to participate in a gambling activity. So, even though the hider isn't profiting in the common sense of making money off this, he seems to meet the legal definition of profiting from a gambling activity as it pertains to the laws below.

528.020 Promoting gambling in the first degree.

(1) A person is guilty of promoting gambling in the first degree when he knowingly advances or profits from unlawful gambling activity by:

(a) Engaging in bookmaking to the extent that he employs or utilizes three or more persons in a bookmaking activity and receives or accepts in any one day bets totaling more than $500; or

( Receiving in connection with a lottery or mutuel scheme or enterprise:

1. Money or written records from a person other than a player whose chances or plays are represented by such money or records; or

2. More than $500 in any one day of money played in the scheme or enterprise; or

© Setting up and operating a gambling device.

OK, guilty in the first degree if the hider advances or profits from unlawful gambling by setting up a gambling device (the geocache).

Is he profiting in the legal sense (accepting money or property)? Yes

Is he advancing gambling? Yes, he is promoting it on a web site.

(

2) Promoting gambling in the first degree is a Class D felony.

528.030 Promoting gambling in the second degree.

(1) A person is guilty of promoting gambling in the second degree when he knowingly advances or profits from unlawful gambling activity.

(2) Promoting gambling in the second degree is a Class A misdemeanor.

See above.

528.040 Conspiracy to promote gambling.

(1) A person is guilty of conspiracy to promote gambling when he conspires to advance or profit from gambling activity.

(2) "Conspire" means to engage in activity constituting a criminal conspiracy as defined in KRS 506.040.

(3) Conspiracy to promote gambling is a Class D felony.

I suspect one could say the hider is conspiring with the cache seekers to advance or profit (as defined at the top) from gambling.

Sounds questionable enough IN THE HIDER'S HOME STATE to me to either disallow it entirely, or at least set it aside for Groundspeak's legal dept to work out.

January 9, 2006

So, what if it wasn't money? How about making it 'items of value' instead? That way you CAN have your cake and eat it too!

Doc

January 9, 2006

I appreciate the thoughtful replies concerning the law in our fine Commonwealth of Kentucky. Let me lend my expertise to the discussion in hopes of better framing the question. As a practicing attorney and a former State Prosecutor for 6 1/2 years I can, with some authority, explain some nuances of the law from the perspective of both a student of the law and a law enforcement officer. All criminal statutes are enacted with a specific goal in mind, commonly referred to as the "public policy" reasoning behind a particular statute. That said, there are times when something fits under the technical definition of the law, but the law is not applied because to do so would frustrate the public policy behind the law, be so selective in its application as to be unconsititutional (cannot selectively prosecute one thing and ignore other like things without a good reason) or just be a silly extensive of the law to an area not contemplated by the legislature and whose proseuction would serve no purpose.

While previous writers are correct that, in some way, the cache as defined would or could fall under some aspect of the penal code in the Commonwealth, the question would then become, would the law be applied as written? Would the Commonwealth of Kentucky seek the proesecution of the cache owner for assiting in or promoting a "gambling activity?" Then, if they did prosecute, would there be an argument against the prosecution based on some constitutional grounds, i.e. are there other similar ilegal gambling activities taking place that we know about but regularly ignore. Besides the basement poker games, the NCAA tournament pools, the pool-room bets, etc. the list of ignored illegal gambling is pretty extensive. When I say "legal or illegal" I mean not to discount the application of the law of the Commonwealth's authority to enforce it, I mean there is a slim to none chance the Commonwealth would preosecute someone for this considering the scope. Now if I took money, it would be more likely, completely remote but the argument would be better for the prosecution.

The question I'm attempting to pose is - Does this particular cache game offend the tenets of geocaching? We are a family sport, we are a respectful community of people who enjoy the outdoors, the thrill of the hunt and a well-earned smiley face. We are, by and large, the most honest, law-abiding group of people someone is going to run into. We have a good time socializing and ribbing each other about hides and finds and the like. We are a fun group. Is it conceivable this cache somehow offends these theories, a voluntary game to throw some excitement into the winter months.

6.4k · January 9, 2006

Sing, I agree there is actually little chance of prosecution, even if it was considered illegal. I'm just suggesting that if it is, GC.com is gonna wanna cover their Hugh Jazz by not listing it.

If we ignore that, like I said, it sounds like fun, but I'm not sure how it stands up to GC.com's vision of the game. The general feeling seems to be that competitive geocaching, and/or geocaching for profit are not the direction the founders of this site want to see geocaching head in.

I guess one could also argue that these days it's not really pollitically correct or family friendly to promote gambling.

(PS: You wont hear that argument from me. I'm not a fan of nanny-stateism at all. If you don't want your kids to gamble, teach them not to gamble, don't expect everyone else to shield little Johnny from all the evils of the world.)

January 9, 2006

Mopar, well said. CYA for the sake of CYA. Shame that we over compensate in such ways these days. Like we need a sign on the cache page, "warning, may be hidden, may be near poison ivy, may involve walking, may get in an accident driving to cache, cache may be painted a color that offends you, or your children." Sad, sad, sad. JBF aka Dad of Team Singchihuahua

January 9, 2006

Completely ignoring the gambling aspect of the game, the fact that email is involved after the initial outing will keep it from being approved. Check out the geocaching adventures forum for the Cloo game.

It does sound like fun, though.

January 9, 2006

Here's my two cents: I would not be interested in participating. I became a 'cacher to hunt for caches. If I want to play bingo, I'll go to the local bingo hall. Please, don't think I'm trying to rain on your parade; just giving my view, is all. Thanks for the use of the soapbox. <_<

January 9, 2006

An Offical Groundspeak response:

Unfortunately, ladies and gentlemen, Groundspeak is going to decline the listing of this cache.

By listing the cache, we would arguably be promoting and/or benefiting from an illegal activity on geocaching.com, regardless of whether or not the law would actually be enforced in this particular case.

As a company responsible for maintaining this web site for the future of geocaching, we do need to be somewhat risk averse. That is not to say that we will back away from everything that involves risk; however, where the benefits do not clearly outweigh the potential cost (in terms of both legal exposure and negative public perception), I don't believe it would be prudent to proceed.

2.5k · January 9, 2006

I dont' like the idea of this cache for a number of reasons, most of which have no further need to be discussed... However, I agree with a couple points brought up at the very beginning, too, and I want to reiterate them..

Legality aside, I see a number of opportunities for cachers to find the cache, pocket a really nice $10 prize, and completely ignore trading or talking about it. If $3 can go missing from a cache, then a really nice $10 prize - or 15 of them - can seriously dissapear just as quickly.

Also, I'm not sure how many people would be interested in such a game. Seems to me like it could drag out for quite a while.

Interesting idea in thinking outside the box, but I've already paid enough to play between my GPSr, travel bugs, caches, swag, etc... I'd skip this one if it were in my area.

1.1k · January 9, 2006

It would not be approved as you can not force someone to leave anything in a cache. Also it is a bad idea as someone, yes a cacher even, might just take the cache and run. It is a BAD idea at best.

cheers

Bingo Cache?

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