Obligated To File An Sba

[tossedsalad]

If you found out that the local authorities consider a geocache to be dangerous and seeking the cache could result in criminal charges, would you feel obligated to report the cache?

 

I was curious about the fact that there seem to be some extremely hazardous caches in the area, mostly on public property, that have been approved as well as celebrated by the caching community. Some of these caches were placed with a stated purpose of providing a maximum level of danger and difficulty. Terms like "near-psychotic" have been used by the owner to described the level of danger involved. I wanted to find out how these dangerous caches would be considered by the local police, so I asked them. The result was not encouraging. Here is the opening statement.

 

"Thanks for your email and sorry for the delay. I would have to do some research to fully answer your question but off the top of my head, a number of criminal charges may potentially apply, depending on the circumstances, including whether or not it draws a crowd. "

 

So at this point would you risk the ire of the local community by filing an SBA, or would you just let sleeping dogs lie and leave the reviewers to do their job without your help?

[+BlueDeuce]

I would send a note to the reviewer asking if they were aware of these details.

Edited January 7, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+AuntieWeasel]

So at this point would you risk the ire of the local community by filing an SBA, or would you just let sleeping dogs lie and leave the reviewers to do their job without your help?

Well, I'm pretty sure what I would NOT do is start off by contacting the local police with an inflammatory hypothetical description of my favorite hobby. Geez.

 

Have you done any of these caches yourself? Have you considered the possibility that a large number of people who have done them (and "celebrated" them) are in a better position to judge the "psychoticness" of the challenge? Has it occurred to you the over-the-top description might be a joke? Is your local reviewer a known incompetent nut-case?

[+Mopar]

If you found out that the local authorities consider a geocache to be dangerous and seeking the cache could result in criminal charges, would you feel obligated to report the cache?

"Thanks for your email and sorry for the delay. I would have to do some research to fully answer your question but off the top of my head, a number of criminal charges may potentially apply, depending on the circumstances, including whether or not it draws a crowd. "

 

Sounds like someone is ASSuming a lot.

[+Moose Mob]

Too many variables for a definative answer.

 

Dangerous? That's the responsibility of the seeker.

 

Illegal location? Yes, post the SBA. (If the seeker will be subject to serious legal charges then he cache should not be there) Primarily this would be "no tresspassing" areas.

 

Ire of the community? Give them more credit. At least not our community. Most folks don't get upset because of something said, it because of how its said and how often. First offense is generaly looked at as a silly mistake.

[+TeamGuisinger]

You might be afraid to try the caches, doesn't mean you have to ruin it for everyone else. Caches are not always what they appear to be on the website. Therefore anyone who has not hunted it should not be throwing stones.

 

Now if you have tried the cache and found that it did in fact involve illegal and life threatening activities, you take it up with a reviewer not the po-po.

[Trinity's Crew]

If the cache(s) are placed illegally, (i.e. no tresspassing areas) then by all means file an SBA.

Life-threatening? That is in the eye of the beholder. I certainly won't be attempting any caches where you need to scuba dive or rock climb, because I am not trained (or inclined) to try these activties. However, I certainly wouldn't stop others who would like to try them.

[Hugh Jazz]

Obviously Illegal? Yes, SBA it.

 

Dangerous? Is it rated 5 terrain stars? Then no SBA.

 

Calling the police to report it? I'm prohibited by forum guidelines concerning "respect for the individual" from commenting on this behavior in the manner in which I would really like to.

[Trinity's Crew]

Calling the police to report it? I'm prohibited by forum guidelines concerning "respect for the individual" from commenting on this behavior in the manner in which I would really like to.

Ditto.

[+Yamahammer]

It's up to me as a cacher/adult to make up my own mind of what I hunt. I've walked away from a few. My decision. I didn't report it cuz the next guy/girl might not consider it dangerous but more adventurous. If you have concerns, express them to the owner. They own the cache. I would not contact the local authorities over it. I would not contact GC either. ... Leave it be and move on.

[tossedsalad]

I would send a note to the reviewer asking if they were aware of these details.

Based on the amount of attention these caches have received in the local forums, I believe the local reviewer is fully aware of the details of the cache. There were pictures of of a cacher climbing two of these caches. One of them has since been made into a tee shirt. Kinda hard to miss I would say...

 

I don't see how the reviewer could not know of these caches and how dangerous they are. As to the legal issues, I think common sense would tell you that climbing a 20 foot light pole in a busy downtown area could get you arrested... especially when the police station is only two blocks away.

 

I was actually surprised that the reply from the police was as ambivalent as it was. That alone makes me not want to file an SBA.

[+Bill & Tammy]

If you found out that the local authorities consider a geocache to be dangerous and seeking the cache could result in criminal charges, would you feel obligated to report the cache?

 

If the local authorities were aware that a geocache is dangerous I am sure they would deal with it without any outside assistance needed. It is another thing entirely to make them aware of it.

[+Yamahammer]

Mano, you should just let it lie. You don't want to be known as a Narc-Cacher.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I would send a note to the reviewer asking if they were aware of these details.

Based on the amount of attention these caches have received in the local forums, I believe the local reviewer is fully aware of the details of the cache. There were pictures of of a cacher climbing two of these caches. One of them has since been made into a tee shirt. Kinda hard to miss I would say...

 

I don't see how the reviewer could not know of these caches and how dangerous they are. As to the legal issues, I think common sense would tell you that climbing a 20 foot light pole in a busy downtown area could get you arrested... especially when the police station is only two blocks away.

 

I was actually surprised that the reply from the police was as ambivalent as it was. That alone makes me not want to file an SBA.

Who says you have to climb a lightpole? Ever hear of a telescoping stick?

[tossedsalad]

So at this point would you risk the ire of the local community by filing an SBA, or would you just let sleeping dogs lie and leave the reviewers to do their job without your help?

Well, I'm pretty sure what I would NOT do is start off by contacting the local police with an inflammatory hypothetical description of my favorite hobby. Geez.

 

Why do you use the words "inflammatory" and "hypothetical"? The caches are real and I tried to describe them in an accurate, but low key manner. I also did not give the name of the cache or the owner. I just wanted to find out if the authorities considered this cache to be a bad idea. His response was clearly that this sort of cache is a bad idea, but he did not clearly say it was illegal.

 

I figured that this post would get a lot of off target replies. I see several that seem to be saying that I "ratted" out the owner to the cops. I just wanted to get background info to be able to have a rational discussion of when to do an SBA and when to walk away and ignore a cache.

 

If I do anything, it will be to contact gc.com via the reviewer. But at this point I am not inclined to do that.

 

Have you done any of these caches yourself? Have you considered the possibility that a large number of people who have done them (and "celebrated" them) are in a better position to judge the "psychoticness" of the challenge? Has it occurred to you the over-the-top description might be a joke? Is your local reviewer a known incompetent nut-case?

 

All of these caches are PMO due to the stated danger levels. That is the owners way of "protecting" the cachers. I was able to use the gc.com map and the pictures posted to the local web site to find where they are. I found the containers, but without a 24 foot ladder I couldn't retrieve them; I am not able to shinny up a lamp post anymore. Do you need any more info to judge? How about the fact that they are both about 2-3 blocks from a police station and one is right across the street from a train station?

 

I have wondered about how much of the owner's bravado is just joking and how much is serious. Sometimes his forum posts are about caches on Jupiter, clearly kidding. But he also talks about scouting toxic waste dumps as cache sites and I don't see any sign of humor in it. In fact he specificaly asked if people would be willing to cache in a toxic waste site and said he was not at all kidding! "And, yes, I was serious in asking the questions, which is kinda sad [Very Happy] , because it illustrates just how deranged and eccentric I am! [Twisted Evil]"

 

As to the mental state of the reviewer, I can't comment partly because I have no way of knowing who the reviewer is. The pages are PMO, so I can't get any details.

[tossedsalad]

Obviously Illegal?  Yes, SBA it.

 

Dangerous?  Is it rated 5 terrain stars?  Then no SBA. 

 

Calling the police to report it?  I'm prohibited by forum guidelines concerning "respect for the individual" from commenting on this behavior in the manner in which I would really like to.

Isn't it up to the police to decide what would be considered "illegal"? How do you make this call? Is climbing 20 feet up a lamp post illegal? I am pretty sure that if I were not aware of caching and saw someone shinnying up a lamp post, I would call a cop!

 

But I am aware of caching, so I am asking here. As I said in my other post, I only contacted the police to find out what they thought. As much as I would like to have the authority, I don't get to decide what is illegal. No one was ratted out.

 

I really wish people would try not to be so offensive in their posts.

[tossedsalad]

If you found out that the local authorities consider a geocache to be dangerous and seeking the cache could result in criminal charges, would you feel obligated to report the cache? 

 

If the local authorities were aware that a geocache is dangerous I am sure they would deal with it without any outside assistance needed. It is another thing entirely to make them aware of it.

Oh, I see why the personal comments about contacting the police. I did not mean report it to the police. I meant report it to GC.com!

 

I guess I thought that was clear from the subject.

Edited January 7, 2006 by tossedsalad

[+chstress53]

A narc cacher you indeed re. IF YOU HAD ANY DOUBTS ABOUT THE CACHE A SIMPLE EMAIL TO THE LOCAL REVIEWER SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE WAY TO GO. Sounds like you do not own a telesoping pole my hubby does and it can reach well over that height. Yes it was very expensive, and if you want that cache you probably should get one. Emailing the po with hypotheticals is just plain WRONG WRONG WRONG you should have emailed the reviewer or hey a novel idea would be to email the owner of the cache, maybe he never intended for the likes of you to get his caches, it might have been a high difficulty for a reason, wit5h full permission from a public entity that you are unaware of, SHAME ON YOU.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Just because a cache is "dangerous" doesn't mean it is illegal or against the site's listing guidelines. That's why we have a rating system. A cache 20' up a pole could be considered terrain "5" because you need special equipment to retrieve it (a telescoping pole is ideal, but it could also be done with a ladder). How about a cache 50' up a cliff? Special equipment is needed there too. That doesn't make it illegal, only difficult.

 

If any cache is beyond your ability, don't hunt it! Leave it for people that have the necessary skills, equipment, or experience.

If you think a cache is hidden illegaly, send a note to the cache owner. For example, "Hey, I went looking for your xxxx cache and saw <an obstacle>. I couldn't find another way to get to the cache. Was I in the right spot?"

[+Kit Fox]

Obviously Illegal?  Yes, SBA it.

 

Dangerous?  Is it rated 5 terrain stars?  Then no SBA. 

 

Calling the police to report it?  I'm prohibited by forum guidelines concerning "respect for the individual" from commenting on this behavior in the manner in which I would really like to.

Isn't it up to the police to decide what would be considered "illegal"? How do you make this call? Is climbing 20 feet up a lamp post illegal? I am pretty sure that if I were not aware of caching and saw someone shinnying up a lamp post, I would call a cop!

 

But I am aware of caching, so I am asking here. As I said in my other post, I only contacted the police to find out what they thought. As much as I would like to have the authority, I don't get to decide what is illegal. No one was ratted out.

 

I really wish people would try not to be so offensive in their posts.

 

 

Here is my take on the issue, my background includes 9 years in law enforcement, and being the 4th generation of LE in my family.

 

Any cache that forces you to break the law, should be archived! Call me a critic, or a spoil sport, but cachers that make a T-shirt and celebrate a cacher who climbed a 20 foot pole to log a micro are doing a great disservice to law abiding cachers. Imagine the heat if the local media, or the city council got wind of this. They probably already have city ordinances against tampering with street lights. If the cache in question is in fact authorized by the city in question, and they don't have an issue with cachers climbing their poles, I retract my argument!

Edited January 7, 2006 by Kit Fox

[+AuntieWeasel]

Why do you use the words "inflammatory" and "hypothetical"?  The caches are real and I tried to describe them in an accurate, but low key manner.  I also did not give the name of the cache or the owner.

Gah! You didn't have to. If you used the word "cache" or "geocache" or described the activity in enough detail that a Google search would turn it up, you might as well have given the coords. And bonus points for being an actual participant who thinks it's an activity dangerous to the point of being possibly illegal.

 

How stupid do you think the police are? Even Officer Friendly can drive Internet Explorer these days...

[+Bill & Tammy]

If you found out that the local authorities consider a geocache to be dangerous and seeking the cache could result in criminal charges, would you feel obligated to report the cache? 

 

If the local authorities were aware that a geocache is dangerous I am sure they would deal with it without any outside assistance needed. It is another thing entirely to make them aware of it.

Oh, I see why the personal comments about contacting the police. I did not mean report it to the police. I meant report it to GC.com!

 

I guess I thought that was clear from the subject.

As they say first impressions are everything and by contacting local law enforcement to inquire about the legality of a geocache is their introduction it probably wasn't the best way to acquaint them with our activity.

 

As Gandalf once said "Life in the wide world goes on much as it has this past age, full of it's own comings and goings. Scarcely aware of the existence of geocachers, for which I am very thankful."

 

well, maybe he did say Hobbits.

Edited January 7, 2006 by Bill & Tammy

[+wavector]

...saw someone shinnying up a lamp post, I would call a cop!

 

What other things might cause you to call the police ?

 

This is a very poor guideline for deciding wether a cache is acceptable or not, it is probably very subjective.

[+robert]

Here is my take on the issue, my background includes 9 years in law enforcement, and being the 4th generation of LE in my family.

 

Any cache that forces you to break the law, should be archived! Call me a critic, or a spoil sport, but cachers that make a T-shirt and celebrate a cacher who climbed a 20 foot pole to log a micro are doing a great disservice to law abiding cachers. Imagine the heat if the local media, or the city council got wind of this. They probably already have city ordinances against tampering with street lights.

 

I'd love to see the proof of permission the cache owner recieived, before hiding this cache. I would start with the SBA, or contacting the approver privately.

 

I made a coin trade last night so drove to the post office today without my seatbelt on. It was dangerous, and I could have been killed. I'm planning to call the Postmaster on Monday and have the Post Office shut down. (Hypothetically, of course. I always drive with my seatbelt.)

 

I've done one of the caches tossedsalad is referencing and had fun with it. I'll admit by the cache pages I thought but they're nowhere as bad as they're listed to be (I'd imagine at some point they could be, depending on the circumstances). Of course there are 6 others but I've seen how a few of them are done. It can be dangerous (like driving to the post office without your seat belt) but if done right, with the proper tools (it's a terrain 5 after all), it can be done safely, and from what I've seen so can the rest of them. One person chose to climb the pole to retrieve the key holder (labeled as a geocache), others have used poles, stood on their vehicles, or like me, drove away since I had no way to retrieve it.

Edited January 7, 2006 by robert

[tossedsalad]

There have been several posts that don't even deserve a reply (not intending yours). I can't belive how people think you should NEVER report a potential problem. I really can't believe the lady who is bragging about her husband having a long telecoping pole. KEEP YOUR PERSONAL INFO TO YOURSELF PLEASE

 

Why do you use the words "inflammatory" and "hypothetical"?  The caches are real and I tried to describe them in an accurate, but low key manner.  I also did not give the name of the cache or the owner.

Gah! You didn't have to. If you used the word "cache" or "geocache" or described the activity in enough detail that a Google search would turn it up, you might as well have given the coords. And bonus points for being an actual participant who thinks it's an activity dangerous to the point of being possibly illegal.

 

How stupid do you think the police are? Even Officer Friendly can drive Internet Explorer these days...

I am not clear about what you are saying. If my email to the police results in an archival, then they will have done some real sluthing and clearly the cache deserved to be archived. Here is how I described the cache...

 

"The location in particular that I am concerned about is a geocache placed high up on a lamp post. In order to retrieve the geocache, the cacher has to climb the pole or use a ladder. There is a photo circulating in the geocaching forums of a cacher standing on the two street signs of a lamp post near the corner of Commerce St and South East St."

 

The city is Frederick, MD. You certainly won't find anything from google. The best I could find took me to the map of Maryland. Assuming they could figure out where this corner is on the map this is the link they would get...

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?ID=284050

 

See any info there??? Not unless you are a premium member. If the police go through all this, then clearly they are very concerned and it should have been reported. The reply I got said "If you have any questions please feel free to contact me." so clearly they are not going to dig further on their own unless someone makes a complaint.

 

So how about we just get off the whining about "reporting" the cache to the police (which I did not do) and stick to the topic.

[+Kit Fox]

Let me reiterate by saying, I have no issue with cache, but I do have issues with the caching mentality, "what the cops don't know, wont hurt them." This clearly implies an illegal activity is going on.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

There have been several posts that don't even deserve a reply (not intending yours). I can't belive how people think you should NEVER report a potential problem. <snip>

yes, but WHO you report the problem to is the subject of debate here. Always start with the cache owner. If their response isn't enough, escalate to the reviewer. Still don't like it? Email contact at geocaching dot com. After that? Nothing! It isn't your concern anymore. Put the cache on your ignore list and walk away.

[tossedsalad]

Here is my take on the issue, my background includes 9 years in law enforcement, and being the 4th generation of LE in my family.

 

Any cache that forces you to break the law, should be archived! Call me a critic, or a spoil sport, but cachers that make a T-shirt and celebrate a cacher who climbed a 20 foot pole to log a micro are doing a great disservice to law abiding cachers. Imagine the heat if the local media, or the city council got wind of this. They probably already have city ordinances against tampering with street lights.

 

I'd love to see the proof of permission the cache owner recieived, before hiding this cache. I would start with the SBA, or contacting the approver privately.

 

I made a coin trade last night so drove to the post office today without my seatbelt on. It was dangerous, and I could have been killed. I'm planning to call the Postmaster on Monday and have the Post Office shut down. (Hypothetically, of course. I always drive with my seatbelt.)

 

I've done one of the caches tossedsalad is referencing and had fun with it. I'll admit by the cache pages I thought but they're nowhere as bad as they're listed to be (I'd imagine at some point they could be, depending on the circumstances). Of course there are 6 others but I've seen how a few of them are done. It can be dangerous (like driving to the post office without your seat belt) but if done right, with the proper tools (it's a terrain 5 after all), it can be done safely, and from what I've seen so can the rest of them. One person chose to climb the pole to retrieve the key holder (labeled as a geocache), others have used poles, stood on their vehicles, or like me, drove away since I had no way to retrieve it.

Robert,

 

I'm not sure what your point is. There are two issues, the danger level and the legality. You replied to a post that only addressed the legality and you discussed the danger issue. Yes, I agree that the danger alone is not the issue. If this were a light pole in the woods, then feel free to climb or use a ladder or a bucket truck if you have one. But you know where this cache is. Do you really think a cop is not going to have an issue with you climbing or even placing a ladder on this lamp post?

 

Let's face it. This cache requires that you do something in a very public location that will require you to behave very far outside the norm. This behavior may even get you arrested.

 

The question is not should this cache be archived, but when do you report a cache and when do you not report it (to gc.com). Several people have said you should report a cache when it is "obviously" illegal. But mostly they are thinking about treaspassing. I think this cache pushes the boundaries of "legal" as the reply from the police indicate. So where do we draw the line??? When do we question the judgement of the owner?

[+sept1c_tank]

...If I do anything, it will be to contact gc.com via the reviewer.  But at this point I am not inclined to do that.

I would suggest that your inclination may be the best idea. In your OP, you asked,

If you found out that the local authorities consider a geocache to be dangerous and seeking the cache could result in criminal charges, would you feel obligated to report the cache?

 

If seeking the cache would result in criminal charges (like if you had to enter a restricted military area), I might feel some obligation to report it to a reviewer or file an SBA. But according to the information you have presented here, and the response from the PO:

...criminal charges may potentially apply, depending on the circumstances...

 

I do not know to which caches you are referring, so I haven't read the descriptions or any logs. Have others logged the caches in question? What are their comments? Did they break any laws? Can the caches be retrieved legally and safely, or is it just your perception that they can't?

[tossedsalad]

There have been several posts that don't even deserve a reply (not intending yours).  I can't belive how people think you should NEVER report a potential problem. <snip>

yes, but WHO you report the problem to is the subject of debate here. Always start with the cache owner. If their response isn't enough, escalate to the reviewer. Still don't like it? Email contact at geocaching dot com. After that? Nothing! It isn't your concern anymore. Put the cache on your ignore list and walk away.

No, who was not part of the original question. The question was when to report a cache.

[+robert]

Let me reiterate by saying, I have no issue with cache, but I do have issues with the caching mentality, "what the cops don't know, wont hurt them." This clearly implies an illegal activity is going on.

There was an instance recently (both here in MD and in these forums) where a cacher went into a park after closing by climbing the gate. They made the find and left.

 

Should that one be archived as well?

[+AuntieWeasel]

I am not clear about what you are saying.  If my email to the police results in an archival, then they will have done some real sluthing and clearly the cache deserved to be archived.

Do you really not? That PD's first impression of geocaching is an email from a participant who worries that some of his co-hobbyists do things that are dangerous, stupid and possibly illegal. This is what we like to call "really bad PR."

 

Here is how I described the cache...

 

"The location in particular that I am concerned about is a geocache placed high up on a lamp post.  In order to retrieve the geocache, the cacher has to climb the pole or use a ladder.  There is a photo circulating in the geocaching forums of a cacher standing on the two street signs of a lamp post near the corner of Commerce St and South East St."

 

The city is Frederick, MD.  You certainly won't find anything from google.

Oh, yeah. That takes a Sherlock Fricking Holmes. I went to Mapquest and put in "Commerce Street" which gave me a zip of 21701. Pop that into geocaching.com, and you wouldn't by any chance be talking about the Psycho Urban Cache series, would you? That took me twice as long to type as it took to do.

 

In terms of doing the right thing for geocaching AND the community, you'd have done everybody a favor by filing the stupid SBA rather than talking to the cops on spec.

[+BlueDeuce]

I would send a note to the reviewer asking if they were aware of these details.

Based on the amount of attention these caches have received in the local forums, I believe the local reviewer is fully aware of the details of the cache.

Well in that case I wouldn't worry about it.

 

In general, if I think a cache is not within guidlines am I not going to assume the reviewer knows it and I will pass the information along to them and let them take it from there.

 

and yes I do think it is my business.

[+robert]

So how about we just get off the whining about "reporting" the cache to the police (which I did not do) and stick to the topic.

 

I am not clear about what you are saying. If my email to the police results in an archival, then they will have done some real sluthing and clearly the cache deserved to be archived. Here is how I described the cache...

 

"The location in particular that I am concerned about is a geocache placed high up on a lamp post. In order to retrieve the geocache, the cacher has to climb the pole or use a ladder. There is a photo circulating in the geocaching forums of a cacher standing on the two street signs of a lamp post near the corner of Commerce St and South East St."

 

Even if there was no formal report, that's probably about as close as you can get to one without filling out the paperwork.

[+Torry]

Um... Climbing up a pole is as illegal for a cacher as it is for someone looking for any other sort of thrill. It is a form of trespassing and there can be no assumed right of the public to climb it for any reason other than to make authorized repairs or to place authorized decorations.

 

A person who climbs this structure would clearly be violating the law were the police to be there to catch them and felt like making a citation.

 

We as cachers may see no harm in such shenanigans as shimmying up a utility pole but most of the rest of the world would treat such behavior as nothing more than a form of trespassing or vandalism. Especially in light of the fact that the photo shows the climber using the street sign as a footrest.

 

There can be no question that a cache placement that requires the finder to climb a private structure without the explicit consent of the property owner should not be allowed to remain. The fact that the cache could be grabbed with a telescoping pole is immaterial in light of the fact that apparently most cachers do not carry a 20-foot telescoping pole with them.

 

This is the sort of cache that gets our game well above the radar. This is the kind of situation that makes people want to curtail our caching activities. This is the sort of cache that makes us look like a bunch of frat boys on break.

 

This is the kind of cache that shouldn't be allowed.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

There have been several posts that don't even deserve a reply (not intending yours).  I can't belive how people think you should NEVER report a potential problem. <snip>

yes, but WHO you report the problem to is the subject of debate here. Always start with the cache owner. If their response isn't enough, escalate to the reviewer. Still don't like it? Email contact at geocaching dot com. After that? Nothing! It isn't your concern anymore. Put the cache on your ignore list and walk away.

No, who was not part of the original question. The question was when to report a cache.

Yes, who was part of the original question because you went to the police without even bothering to ask the cache owner about it.

 

I no of no law on the books against climbing lightpoles (at least in my city). You might get questioned about what you are doing, but I doubt any charges would stick. If you have a bucket truck and an orange vest, you could easily retrieve the cache without so much as a sideways glance from a LEO.

 

The simple solution still remains: Don't attempt any cache that is outside of your comfort zone.

[tossedsalad]

I am not clear about what you are saying.  If my email to the police results in an archival, then they will have done some real sluthing and clearly the cache deserved to be archived.

Do you really not? That PD's first impression of geocaching is an email from a participant who worries that some of his co-hobbyists do things that are dangerous, stupid and possibly illegal. This is what we like to call "really bad PR."

 

Here is how I described the cache...

 

"The location in particular that I am concerned about is a geocache placed high up on a lamp post.  In order to retrieve the geocache, the cacher has to climb the pole or use a ladder.  There is a photo circulating in the geocaching forums of a cacher standing on the two street signs of a lamp post near the corner of Commerce St and South East St."

 

The city is Frederick, MD.  You certainly won't find anything from google.

Oh, yeah. That takes a Sherlock Fricking Holmes. I went to Mapquest and put in "Commerce Street" which gave me a zip of 21701. Pop that into geocaching.com, and you wouldn't by any chance be talking about the Psycho Urban Cache series, would you? That took me twice as long to type as it took to do.

 

In terms of doing the right thing for geocaching AND the community, you'd have done everybody a favor by filing the stupid SBA rather than talking to the cops on spec.

But you have no real info on the cache do you? What are the coordinates? Who is the owner?

 

The cache is PMO. If the cops want to pay the $3 (which will actually cost them a couple of hundred by the time they file the paper work) then clearly they are very concerned and it was a good thing to alert them.

 

Just get off it. Stick to the topic of the thread, when to report the cache to GC.com. Your whole cop thing is a red herring.

[+RichardMoore]

Tossedsalad,

Thank you for providing a link to the cache in question, but you really should have done that in your opening post. While you may have been trying to protect the confidentiality of the cache owner, it would be very easy for anyone who would be reading this thread to find out which cache it is.

That being said...

I read the cache description, and the logs, and looked at the pictures. From the information thus obtained it is obvious where the cache is and what is needed to retrieve it. There is no need to climb the pole. Several of the finders used devices to retrieve the cache, one of the devices made from things the finder had around his house and assembled on-sight.

Is the cache dangerous? Only if the finder want's it to be.

Is the cache illegal? Possibly.

Is retrieving the cache illegal? Only if the finder does it in an illegal manner. If someone searching for a cache parks illegally because it's easier than parking in the proper area, is the cache owner to blame? And should the cache be archived because of it?

Should you have contacted the police? No.

Everyone in the pictures looked to be of legal age, and is responsible for their own actions. They decided to do it the hard way. Any consequences would be their own.

[+AuntieWeasel]

Just get off it. Stick to the topic of the thread, when to report the cache to GC.com. Your whole cop thing is a red herring.

MY whole cop thing? What's the matter with you?! The time to report it to GC.com is BEFORE YOU REPORT IT TO THE COPS. If you don't understand why that's got me flexed, then I have a bag of hammers I'd pay good money to watch you debate...

[tossedsalad]

So how about we just get off the whining about "reporting" the cache to the police (which I did not do) and stick to the topic.

 

I am not clear about what you are saying. If my email to the police results in an archival, then they will have done some real sluthing and clearly the cache deserved to be archived. Here is how I described the cache...

 

"The location in particular that I am concerned about is a geocache placed high up on a lamp post. In order to retrieve the geocache, the cacher has to climb the pole or use a ladder. There is a photo circulating in the geocaching forums of a cacher standing on the two street signs of a lamp post near the corner of Commerce St and South East St."

 

Even if there was no formal report, that's probably about as close as you can get to one without filling out the paperwork.

What is your point? You seem hung up on the fact that I discussed this with the police to get some facts before I came here.

 

Are you afraid of letting the police know that geocachers are out there?

 

You asked a rhetorical question about an unrelated cache and then label my enquiry to the police as "as close as you can get" to a report. I wish you would stop pussyfooting around and say what you have to say.

 

Robert, can you stick to the topic of the thread, when do you report a cache to gc.com?

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I am not clear about what you are saying.  If my email to the police results in an archival, then they will have done some real sluthing and clearly the cache deserved to be archived.

Do you really not? That PD's first impression of geocaching is an email from a participant who worries that some of his co-hobbyists do things that are dangerous, stupid and possibly illegal. This is what we like to call "really bad PR."

 

Here is how I described the cache...

 

"The location in particular that I am concerned about is a geocache placed high up on a lamp post.  In order to retrieve the geocache, the cacher has to climb the pole or use a ladder.  There is a photo circulating in the geocaching forums of a cacher standing on the two street signs of a lamp post near the corner of Commerce St and South East St."

 

The city is Frederick, MD.  You certainly won't find anything from google.

Oh, yeah. That takes a Sherlock Fricking Holmes. I went to Mapquest and put in "Commerce Street" which gave me a zip of 21701. Pop that into geocaching.com, and you wouldn't by any chance be talking about the Psycho Urban Cache series, would you? That took me twice as long to type as it took to do.

 

In terms of doing the right thing for geocaching AND the community, you'd have done everybody a favor by filing the stupid SBA rather than talking to the cops on spec.

But you have no real info on the cache do you? What are the coordinates? Who is the owner?

 

The cache is PMO. If the cops want to pay the $3 (which will actually cost them a couple of hundred by the time they file the paper work) then clearly they are very concerned and it was a good thing to alert them.

 

Just get off it. Stick to the topic of the thread, when to report the cache to GC.com. Your whole cop thing is a red herring.

I followed the link just fine. it went to

Psycho Urban Cache #4 - Where is Padre Pio? by Vinny & Sue Team

but I won't be posting the coordinates to a Member's Only cache here

[+Torry]

There have been several posts that don't even deserve a reply (not intending yours).  I can't belive how people think you should NEVER report a potential problem. <snip>

yes, but WHO you report the problem to is the subject of debate here. Always start with the cache owner. If their response isn't enough, escalate to the reviewer. Still don't like it? Email contact at geocaching dot com. After that? Nothing! It isn't your concern anymore. Put the cache on your ignore list and walk away.

No, who was not part of the original question. The question was when to report a cache.

Yes, who was part of the original question because you went to the police without even bothering to ask the cache owner about it.

 

I no of no law on the books against climbing lightpoles (at least in my city). You might get questioned about what you are doing, but I doubt any charges would stick. If you have a bucket truck and an orange vest, you could easily retrieve the cache without so much as a sideways glance from a LEO.

 

The simple solution still remains: Don't attempt any cache that is outside of your comfort zone.

Climbing a utility pole is as illegal as all get-out in many areas. The poles are the property of the utility company and are specialized structures that are not intended for public use. In many areas it is illegal to hang a "YARD SALE" poster on a utility pole. If you knock one down in an accident it is treated as a property damage accident and the cost of replacement can be considerable.

 

The utility company may allow certain uses of their utility poles, such as hanging street signs and holiday decorations.

 

The utility company may tolerate certain uses of their utility poles, such as temporary placement of "Missing child" poster or micro cache placement.

 

The utility company would NEVER allow unauthorized people to climb their utility poles. They may not send out the SWAT team when it occurs but there can be no assumption of explicit consent just because there is no armed guard and barbed wire.

[Hugh Jazz]

NOTE ON CLAIMING FINDS: Due to the extreme placement of this cache, and difficulty in retrieval, we must ask that anyone claiming a find on this cache must not only sign the waterproof log sheet (the two blank pages stapled together), but must also note the circled number which will be found on the log sheets and on the enclosed printed informational note expalining geocaching, and must then send this number to us via PM or private e-mail. Any FIND claims where claimant did not sign log and did not provide the circled number will be invalidated.

 

This cache requires a "codeword" in order to log it, and thus is in violation of the rules, and should not have been approved. The "climbing a pole" and "calling a cop" things are red herrings.

[tossedsalad]

One last time. This thread is not about report caches to the police. I did not have sex with that woman and I did not "report" the cache to the cops. I only contacted the police to see if they considered it an illegal activity.

 

Please stop posting off topic. Read the title! The topic is about filing an SBA on a cache.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

There have been several posts that don't even deserve a reply (not intending yours).  I can't belive how people think you should NEVER report a potential problem. <snip>

yes, but WHO you report the problem to is the subject of debate here. Always start with the cache owner. If their response isn't enough, escalate to the reviewer. Still don't like it? Email contact at geocaching dot com. After that? Nothing! It isn't your concern anymore. Put the cache on your ignore list and walk away.

No, who was not part of the original question. The question was when to report a cache.

Yes, who was part of the original question because you went to the police without even bothering to ask the cache owner about it.

 

I no of no law on the books against climbing lightpoles (at least in my city). You might get questioned about what you are doing, but I doubt any charges would stick. If you have a bucket truck and an orange vest, you could easily retrieve the cache without so much as a sideways glance from a LEO.

 

The simple solution still remains: Don't attempt any cache that is outside of your comfort zone.

Climbing a utility pole is as illegal as all get-out in many areas. The poles are the property of the utility company and are specialized structures that are not intended for public use. In many areas it is illegal to hang a "YARD SALE" poster on a utility pole. If you knock one down in an accident it is treated as a property damage accident and the cost of replacement can be considerable.

 

The utility company may allow certain uses of their utility poles, such as hanging street signs and holiday decorations.

 

The utility company may tolerate certain uses of their utility poles, such as temporary placement of "Missing child" poster or micro cache placement.

 

The utility company would NEVER allow unauthorized people to climb their utility poles. They may not send out the SWAT team when it occurs but there can be no assumption of explicit consent just because there is no armed guard and barbed wire.

Placing a magnetic geocache on a pole is no different than hanging a yard sale sign there. Neither activity requires anyone to climb the pole. There are plenty of alternatives. Just because someone might not have other equipment to retrieve the cache and feels they must climb the pole doesn't make that cache any more illegal.

There are lots of hiding spots that aren't explicitly allowed or forbidden. Nothing says you have to hunt for it.

[tossedsalad]

I followed the link just fine. it went to

Psycho Urban Cache #4 - Where is Padre Pio? by Vinny & Sue Team

but I won't be posting the coordinates to a Member's Only cache here

Funny, that is not the one. But you get a gold star for continuing to post off topic!

[+RichardMoore]

If you found out that the local authorities consider a geocache to be dangerous and seeking the cache could result in criminal charges, would you feel obligated to report the cache?

To give you a direct answer to your opening question:

Only if I was approached by the authorities.

I would not initiate contact with them unless it was my cache and I was seeking permission to place it.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

NOTE ON CLAIMING FINDS: Due to the extreme placement of this cache, and difficulty in retrieval, we must ask that anyone claiming a find on this cache must not only sign the waterproof log sheet (the two blank pages stapled together), but must also note the circled number which will be found on the log sheets and on the enclosed printed informational note expalining geocaching, and must then send this number to us via PM or private e-mail. Any FIND claims where claimant did not sign log and did not provide the circled number will be invalidated.

 

This cache requires a "codeword" in order to log it, and thus is in violation of the rules, and should not have been approved. The "climbing a pole" and "calling a cop" things are red herrings.

The codeword is in addition to the required logbook. While I don't like logging requirements like this, they aren't against the guidelines. If you think the reviewer should look into it, post an SBA and walk away. Once you inform the reviewer, it's out of your hands and not worth losing sleep over (and that goes to answer the original question too)

 

Posting an SBA does not mean the cache will be archived! It only means that you think it should be archived. The cache owner and/or reviewer will make that decision.

[+Mopar]

NOTE ON CLAIMING FINDS: Due to the extreme placement of this cache, and difficulty in retrieval, we must ask that anyone claiming a find on this cache must not only sign the waterproof log sheet (the two blank pages stapled together), but must also note the circled number which will be found on the log sheets and on the enclosed printed informational note expalining geocaching, and must then send this number to us via PM or private e-mail. Any FIND claims where claimant did not sign log and did not provide the circled number will be invalidated.

 

This cache requires a "codeword" in order to log it, and thus is in violation of the rules, and should not have been approved. The "climbing a pole" and "calling a cop" things are red herrings.

I believe the guideline is "codeword only".

A container with just an object or codeword for verification, and no logbook, generally, does not qualify as a traditional cache.

This one has a log.

It also appears that there is no legal problem actually SEEKING the cache, the area isn't off limits or anything, and there are legal ways to RETRIEVE the cache.

If you wanna archive it on the grounds that the placement on the pole itself is illegal, that may or may not be (seems even the local police are not sure), but if you are going to archive it on those grounds, there are another 10,000 lightpole and guardrail caches that need to be archived and removed as well. Placing a micro at the base would be just as illegal as 20ft up.

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

The time to report it to GC.com is BEFORE YOU REPORT IT TO THE COPS.

 

I believe she just answered your WHEN question very clearly.

 

Look this cache may be bad, just like you say. It may need to be archived. If you have issues with a cache, e-mail the owner. If that doesn't work, log a SBA, complete with the reasons.

 

This particular owner has had an issue with one of your caches. They also were concerned about the legality of the cache placement. On the page they state:

 

We have written to the cache owner outlining the extant problems in greater detail, and suggesting changes to the cache listing page or to the cache placement.

 

The WHEN in this situation was AFTER they had given you the opportunity to review the cache and possibly alter the hide, or otherwise correct the situation. This is the right way to handle a problem cache. Do unto others...

 

Last note about involving the police: If you had just said, "Look at this cache. Should I log a SBA?" I doubt you would have seen so many responses. A lot of people would have said, "Yep, that might be a bad one." But when you mention shooting e-mails to local authorities, and not allowing the cache owner to possibly correct a problem first, it comes off looking pretty underhanded, and perhaps a bit...

 

retaliatory?