Waas 36?

January 25, 2006

I mispoke. The satellite I saw was south-southwest, not SSE. I would guess it's Galaxy 15; the link computes the azimuth from my location as 193 degrees, which is pretty close to what I observed.

3.8k · January 25, 2006

It's reporting that it's at -28877528.24, -30720388.32, -18214.80 (ECEF), which is 133.23W.

Time for Fizzy to update GeoCalc

5.3k · January 25, 2006

It's reporting that it's at -28877528.24, -30720388.32, -18214.80 (ECEF), which is 133.23W.

Time for Fizzy to update GeoCalc

I will, as soon as I figure out enough details. Looks like Galaxy 15 will be assigned Garmin 36; I wonder what PRN will be assigned to Anik F1R. Also, I wonder what the official designations for the satellites will be.

Ah, what the heck. I did it anyway. The two new satellites are in there now.

I wonder how far they are moving AOR-W?

Edited January 25, 2006 by fizzymagic

1.6k · January 25, 2006

Sorry, forgot to get back in here after I tested my Magellan Meridian Platinum in a nice open area last week. It would have had a great view of the new (PRN 36?) WAAS SV, but did not receive it at all. I'm in Southern California. It locked to the usual WAAS SV's (which Magellan shows by SV's, I think, not PRN's, so it get confusing). I got some screen shots of the Magellan, but don't have here (I'm at the office). Will post a couple, especially the "hidden screen" data, which shows all sort of neat stuff like AZ & EL to the SV's, SNR, etc. I "dumped" the alamnac (I think) by turning off WAAS, cycling power / lock, then reversing the process. After that, it took a good 20 minutes to get a WAAS lock again (most of lunch), then locked up on the same old WAAS birds.

Anyway - no problem AT THE MOMENT on Magellan Meridian. BUT - will it recognize the new SV's when it SHOULD, i.e. when it goes operational, and / or is providing a better full-up signal? Hmmm... We'll see!

Edited January 25, 2006 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

3.8k · January 25, 2006

Ah, what the heck. I did it anyway. The two new satellites are in there now.

Thanks

January 25, 2006

RE: the comment: "It would have had a great view of the new (PRN 36?) WAAS SV, but did not receive it at all."

Last week, according to a Garmin tech "the FAA changed the sequence of message that they are using on their test signals to include message MT0 which is the do not use message."

I asked Garmin because I noticed that 36 would blip and immediately disappear from my satellite page. If you weren't watching, you might conclude it never saw 36.

This only occurred for a few days. Perhaps what you experienced (or did not!) was not a fault of your unit.

Also, I have noticed that my other Garmin unit (Map76) does not even try to locate any WAAS bird other than 35 and 47. Seems they were programmed in the days when those were the only two.

3.8k · January 25, 2006

I'm getting corrections from 36 at N53.4°. Oddly nRoute will not allow me to "Enable WAAS" - imagine that has something to do with the "message MT0 which is the do not use message." that GeoBobC refers to. I also noticed last week that "36 would blip and immediately disappear from my satellite page."

Edited January 26, 2006 by PDOP's

1.7k · January 26, 2006

Today was the first time my 60c has got a WASS signal :mad:

So cool!

January 26, 2006

Ok, I had to go out and try it also.... Normally, I can get 35 and I get corrections and it will turn solid lock.... Tonight I got correction data quickly from 35 but no lock, then presto 36 shows up with a stronger signal. I can't tell which gives the corrections, but 35 never lock up solid like normal..... still good accuracy (6feet).... here is a pic...

:mad:

January 26, 2006

Ok, I had to go out and try it also.... Normally, I can get 35 and I get corrections and it will turn solid lock.... Tonight I got correction data quickly from 35 but no lock, then presto 36 shows up with a stronger signal. I can't tell which gives the corrections, but 35 never lock up solid like normal..... still good accuracy (6feet).... here is a pic...

I had a similar thing happen here in wisconsin today(on my legendC), but I first seen the wass 36 and was receiving corrections from that, then the normal 35 I get jumped on.... stranage though i couldn't get a solid lock on either of them.

when I got home and hooked my gps18 to my home pc and also could see 36 on that one, indoors i had 8ft accuracy.(infront of west facing window)

January 26, 2006

The Garmins I have will either search for one or two WAAS signals, depending on the number of non-WAAS signals in the almanac. If there are 10 or less non-WAAS signals, the last two will search for WAAS. If there are 11 or more, only one satellite channel will be allocated for WAAS. I've seen instances where the number of WAAS channels available will flip between one and two.

January 26, 2006

123(36) is now not transmitting anything. Or at least not enough to lock on to.

January 26, 2006

...
Looks like Galaxy 15 will be assigned Garmin 36; I wonder what PRN will be assigned to Anik F1R. Also, I wonder what the official designations for the satellites will be.

...

According to this, 123 (Garmin 36) and 125 (Garmin 38) are reserved for the testing period (at least) for either of the new ones. So it's possible we were seeing either one using 123 at one time or another.

It also seems to indicate they might in the end be 135 (48) for Galaxy 15 and 138 (51) for Anik F1R.

Edited January 26, 2006 by GPSlug

5.3k · January 27, 2006

It also seems to indicate they might in the end be 135 (48) for Galaxy 15 and 138 (51) for Anik F1R.

Thanks! At last some useful information! It certainly looks as if those will be the "official" PRN values for the satellites once they get up and running.

This explains why Garmin ID 36 has been showing up for both satellites.

It also looks like the official designations may be LM-RPS-1 and LM-RPS-2. From here, it seems that LM-RPS stands for Lockheed-Martin Regional Positioning System. I'll put those values into GeoCalc.

1.6k · January 27, 2006

Here's the Magellan Meridian "secret" WAAS screen. Lots of info. The upper block of data is pretty sel-explanatory. The lower block of data, I have a fair idea of what it is saying: the number of regular GPS SV's being corrected, more or less.

2.9k · January 27, 2006

I grabbed an image of my SporTrak Color, which was very hard to do, because the Digital Camera is crap, and I had to use camcorder.

Here is the picture of the secret WAAS screen of my SporTrak Color:

The picture shows the Bearing(AZ), and Elevation of the WAAS satellites.

-

Geoff

January 27, 2006

I was not seeing 36 on my Garmin 60c this morning. Any ideas? Was the number changed, or did FAA turn it off?

1.8k · January 27, 2006

Ok guys, I get to join in now from the northeast. I just received my new Garmin Map 60CX, and had my trusty 60C along as well this morning while surveying in upstate NY. At about 11am eastern I turned on both units, and what do I see but a new Garmin SV #33 instead of the normal #35 I always get a WAAS lock on. It was in the ESE and about 15° and had a strong bar, and gave me WAAS corrections of all my other SVs. I also saw this on my 60C at the same time.

I used Fizzy's GeoCalc to see which bird this was, but the closest I found was the EGNOS AOR-E that put it at azimuth 112.7°, elevation 14.32°. This does closely match what I saw indicated on my screen. I didn''t think Garmin picked up EGNOS birds?

Also, while I watched my screen, the Garmin #34, #36, #37, and #38 were indicated along the bottom but never showed bars. For #36, I saw the indicator at the bottom as well as at due North as you will see in the photo of my 60C at the same time I had lock on #33. Oh, and an hour later (noon eastern) all I could pick up was the Garmin #35 that I'm used to getting! Glad I had my camera to get proof or I wouldn't have believed all this myself. Looks like the space dudes are having some fun up there.

Any explanation for what I witnessed?

3.8k · January 27, 2006

Any explanation for what I witnessed?

It sounds like your GPSr was searching for additional WAAS satellites after it had a lock on 33 as described below.

.... Odd also that I received the following reply from a Garmin tech a month or so ago about the modified WAAS search sequence on a 60c (was changed in beta 4.02 and is also in beta 4.04):

Bob,

The only difference will be in the search order for WAAS. Satellites with known almanac will be searched for first. If they are not found on the first pass, then the other satellites will be tried in numerical order, but the satellites with known almanac will be interspersed every other attempt.

So a search order that used to be something like:

47,35,33,34,36,37,38,39,40,41,42,43,44,45,46,48,49,50,51,47,35,...

will now be:

47,35,33,47,34,35,36,47,37,35,38,47,39,35,40,47,41,35,42,47,43,...

(assuming both 47 and 35 are above the horizon for your location)

Edited January 27, 2006 by PDOP's

January 27, 2006

I saw 33 also this afternoon. Interesting, the 60c & 60cx show different "D" indications.

Edited January 27, 2006 by whitecrow

1.6k · January 27, 2006

Remember the "x" versions are smore sensitive with their SIF III chipsets, so they might be picking up the new WAAS birds that the "regular" C versions don't.

I agree. The spacey dudes are testing stuff. You will probably see that for months. The problem will be: is it "correct" data that is being used for corrections? It would be good to be able to tell GPSr's to ignore the ones that are not active yet, if you so chose.

When WAAS was brand new, and being tested (mid 2002?), I remember it was intermittent at times on my trusty old Etrex venture.

3.8k · January 28, 2006

I was not seeing 36 on my Garmin 60c this morning. Any ideas? Was the number changed, or did FAA turn it off?

36 is transmitting again. Did anyone else see 33?

January 28, 2006

I'm in MA and have only seen 35 as of yet...I'm still hoping my 60CSx will pick up 33.

January 28, 2006

Yup 36 is back online.... never saw 33....

2.4k · January 28, 2006

Yes, I'm seeing 36 again from the San Francisco Bay area. Has anyone had the signal bar go solid from that satellite indicating that it's sending valid ranging data in addition to the correction data? I've only recently gotten correction data but no ranging data yet.

It certainly is placed much better in the sky than either 35 or 47 and is putting out a good strong signal (my GPS V is reporting DGPS "accuracy" of 9' from inside my living room).

January 28, 2006

No solid bar on 36.... I used to get solid bars on 35 all the time until 36 showed up.... but I guess that is okay since the signal from 36 is stronger... <_<

Edited January 28, 2006 by hardwire

2.4k · January 28, 2006

I used to get solid bars on 35 all the time until 36 showed up.

That's just a coincidence. 35 is scheduled to have an orbit adjustment so they turned off ranging on it until that's completed and it has a stable ephemeris again.

3.8k · January 28, 2006

I used Fizzy's GeoCalc to see which bird this was, but the closest I found was the EGNOS AOR-E that put it at azimuth 112.7°, elevation 14.32°. This does closely match what I saw indicated on my screen. I didn''t think Garmin picked up EGNOS birds?

Any explanation for what I witnessed?

Just to clarify Garmin 33 is EGNOS - PRN 120 - Inmarsat 3F2 (AOR-E 15.5°W) As to why you you got a lock on it today GPSlug has an explanation here.

January 28, 2006

I used to get solid bars on 35 all the time until 36 showed up.

That's just a coincidence. 35 is scheduled to have an orbit adjustment so they turned off ranging on it until that's completed and it has a stable ephemeris again.

Well, that makes sense... I'm not familiar with this subject matter but I find it real interesting!

Thanks Peter!

5.7k · January 28, 2006

I'm not going out cache hunting until 35 gets adjusted, it just isn't worth the frustration. :cool: :drama: :lol: :lol:

2.4k · January 28, 2006

I'm not going out cache hunting until 35 gets adjusted, it just isn't worth the frustration.

It seems to be back to normal this morning.

3.8k · January 28, 2006

It looks like 36 is transmitting ranging signals today. I'm seeing a solid bar and "D" for it.

January 28, 2006

It looks like 36 is transmitting ranging signals today. I'm seeing a solid bar and "D" for it.

Can I ask a stupid question??

Whats the D stand for in the bars and yes I had 36 locked in most of the morning too.

1.8k · January 28, 2006

Whats the D stand for in the bars and yes I had 36 locked in most of the morning too.

"D" stands for Differential, indicating your position has been "differentially corrected" using the WAAS signal.

1.1k · January 28, 2006

In SW Colorado this am I'm getting a solid lock and FULL strength on 36. Had D's on every sat

12 ft accuracy in deep mountain valley area

76CS

Earlier I saw 33,34,35,47 at various times but lock only on 35 for a short.

1.8k · January 28, 2006

Got a solid lock on Garmin 33 (EGNOS AOR-E) again today in Albany, NY at about 3:15pm eastern.

5.7k · January 28, 2006

Looks as though it might be safe to go out again. Thanks very much!

January 28, 2006

Got a solid lock on Garmin 33 (EGNOS AOR-E) again today in Albany, NY at about 3:15pm eastern.

hmmm... I'm still on a mission to get 33. I'm not that far from Albany, only 2 hrs maybe I should drive out...

January 29, 2006

A perfect 10 - I've never seen this before. All 12 channels with a solid lock including (the new) WAAS 36 and 47. All with a D. 6 foot accuracy. Am I dreaming?

3.5k · January 29, 2006

Forgive me. I'm lagging behind and haven't read through all this, but is this what you are discussing? One WAAS sat moving and another in testing (i believe the operational date is in Oct 2006):

WAAS GEO (INMARSAT AOR-W) MOVING TO NEW LOCATION

February 2006 – On February 1st, one of the WAAS geostationary satellites (INMARSAT AOR-W) will begin moving west to a new location. This move, which will take approximately 60 days, is the first of several steps this year leading to a new configuration of WAAS GEO satellites.

For more information, please see links posted below.

Information for Pilots

Information for Non-Aviation Users

Second Satellite Carrying New WAAS Payload Launched

October 2005 - On Thursday, October 13th, a second geostationary satellite carrying a new WAAS payload was launched. This payload was launched from Kourou, French Guiana aboard the PanAmSat Galaxy 15 satellite. This satellite payload, in conjunction with the satellite payload launched in September, will provide enhanced WAAS service when incorporated into the operational WAAS in 2006. For more information, please click here.

3.5k · January 29, 2006

In fall 2006 the WAAS sats will be as such:

Garmin 47 178degrees E ( as is)

Garmin 35 142degrees W (west from where it is now. Extreme east coast will have no coverage till fall 2006)

Garmin ?36? 133 degrees W

3.8k · January 29, 2006

A link to information given by EraSeek

This page has been prepared to inform non-aviation users what they can expect as a result of the upcoming WAAS GEO satellite move

3.5k · January 29, 2006

Boy that's quite a move for 35, from 54 degrees west to 142 degrees west. We will have 3 WAAS sats here in Seattle. We are at about 122 degrees west.

5.3k · January 29, 2006

In fall 2006 the WAAS sats will be as such:
Garmin 47 178degrees E ( as is)

Garmin 35 142degrees W (west from where it is now. Extreme east coast will have no coverage till fall 2006)

Garmin ?36? 133 degrees W

Wow. AOR-W is moving a long ways! Northwest residents should get great coverage from it.

Your list (and your source) didn't include the ANIK satellite at W 107, which will cover the East Coast nicely and is supposed to be on-line this fall. I wonder why they left it out?

3.5k · January 29, 2006

This is given in the section for pilots:

"During the move, the AOR-W will continue to broadcast corrections and integrity information for GPS. The only change in the WAAS signal is that the ranging function of AOR-W will be turned off with no noticeable impact to users. "

What is a "Ranging function" ?

5.3k · January 29, 2006

This is given in the section for pilots:
"During the move, the AOR-W will continue to broadcast corrections and integrity information for GPS. The only change in the WAAS signal is that the ranging function of AOR-W will be turned off with no noticeable impact to users. "

What is a "Ranging function" ?

Normally, the WAAS satellites can be used just like regular GPS satellites for position determination in addition to sending the WAAS corrections. That capability is being turned off while the satellite is being moved.

3.5k · January 29, 2006

Thank you Fizzymagic. That's good to know.

Here's a bit about the other sat you mentioned. Sound like a comunication sat or something: http://www.telesat.ca/news/2001/01-02.htm

3.8k · January 29, 2006

Boy that's quite a move for 35, from 54 degrees west to 142 degrees west. We will have 3 WAAS sats here in Seattle. We are at about 122 degrees west.

Prior to February 2006

After March 2006

3.8k · January 29, 2006

Wow. AOR-W is moving a long ways! Northwest residents should get great coverage from it.

Fizzy can you give us a sample elevation at it's final location? (maybe a before and after at your location to illustrate the change)

January 30, 2006

It looks like WAAS will finally be usable in areas that is previously was not. I have a couple questions for the experts: (1) does receiving two WAAS signals improve accuracy over receiving only one? I think I was told that Garmin uses only one signal; (2) does WAAS really improve accuracy? - I've noticed with my 60c that the EPE does not change when receiving "D" corrections. In fact, I've seen EPE of 6 feet without WAAS. I know that EPE is computed and may not reflect reality.

Has anyone run tests with two identical units side-by-side, one with WAAS enabled, and one without? I think a test like that would be insightful. The track logs could be downloaded and compared to see the dispersion around a known location.

Waas 36?

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment