Where Does It Stop?

22k · January 5, 2006

Oh yeah I will

This whole post is worth about 5 cents.

Is that your 2 cents? :yikes:

January 5, 2006

If the wires under the lamp post skirt are exposed by poor installation practices, report it to to the city/property owner. .

Oh yeah, there's a good idea.

You: "Mr. Walmart manager, did you know that underneath the skirt of lamppole 4C there's a bunch of exposed wires?"

Mr. Walmart Manager: "And you know this... how?"

9.4k · January 5, 2006

I'm going to hide a cache in a hollowed out peanut shell. I sure hope no cachers have a peanut allergy :rolleyes:

January 5, 2006

For example, I have a cache that is a real electrical box that I purchased and gutted. I installed it with conduit leading into the ground to make it look real, and added stickers warning of high voltage and authorized personnel only - a previous cache was stollen, this one has not been The cache is locked with a combination lock, which can only be opened by a series of questions that can be answered from objects in the park. The cache is attached to a brick wall in a park, and has permission from the park maintenance manager.

There are already means for bad caches to be archived, let's allow the good ones to live.

Sorry AB4N, but this style of hide is completely inapporpriate. People will find it, and then LATER be opening a live electircal junction box...

I can't believe this subject is even open for debate, as its a gross violation of best practices in industry, and an obvious safety issue.

Forget it, Ian. The thrill of the hide and the hunt trump common sense and safety, you should know that by now.

January 5, 2006

After sifting through the various safety concerns raised in this thread -- and calculating all conceivable liablity issues that may arise -- I believe that gc.com should immediately ban all caches that might be placed in mosquito- or tick-prone areas. After all, malaria and Lyme Disease have killed untold millions of people over the years. Why risk it?

:yikes: :rolleyes:

Edited January 5, 2006 by Chance Encounter

January 5, 2006

Remember, McDonald's paid $40,000,000 for the revelation that coffee is hot...

Actually. McDonald's paid less than a million after the case went through the appeals process. See this article or simply google McDonald's Coffee.

January 5, 2006

On the other hand, I've seen caches hidden very close to bare conductors (including in light poles). I don't know if the conductors are live or not. Common sense would tell you not to get near and, vice versa, not to hide anything near. Some finders might assume that since the hider placed the cache there, it must be dead. This seems a reasonable assumption. But I wouldn't assume it and wouldn't get near until I got out my tic tracer. But is that common sense or specialized experience?

It's common sense that if electrical equipment *might* be live, you don't even attempt it *unless* you have the specialized knowledge to tell if it's safe.

January 5, 2006

But we are not talking about perfectly safe caches, we are talking about open something thinking it could be the cache, but it's not.

A good part of the argument in this thread has been about whether or not perfectly safe caches should be created, if it *might* cause *some* people to do stupid things at another time and another place.

It was primarily that argument that I was initially addressing.

January 5, 2006

Can someone tell me what the draw is to hiding the fake electric box? It is nothing new. If it is not hidden next to live electrical equipment, then it sticks out like a soar thumb and is a 1 star difficulty. So what is the draw? Why are people here defending this cache style so protective of this hiding style if it is an easy find and has no originality?

You're forgetting a few things here:

1. It doesn't have to stick out like a sore thumb in order to be obviously fake when carefully, but *safely* examined.

2. Some people like easy caches.

3. Originality often is a highly subjective concept. How many things that you, personally, have seen, have you considered to be original because you've never seen anything like it before? And out of those, how many of them do you *really* think are genuinely original? In other words, no one - at any time in history, in any place, has *ever* done it before? If you, personally, have seen an electrical box cache taped to a tree, than the next one isn't original. But to anyone who has NOT come across anything like that before, than it *is* original - to them. And there's nothing wrong with that. This is not a closed sport - there are always new people coming in, and there are always new experiences for people who have been doing it for awhile. *That's* the draw.

I keep hearing that you cannot protect stupid people, but that does not address the issue that you are telling people it is ok to open electric boxes because you think you have the knowledge to know it is not real.

Nope. As I said before, it's common sense not to do anything dangerous with electrical boxes that *might* be live, UNLESS you have the knowledge to determine whether it's safe to do so.

For example...

1. If we're talking about nothing more than standard outlet-type boxes, than there's nothing wrong with getting close to only LOOK.

2. If you can see that the box is attached to the surface with magnets and/or double-stick foam, and that - via the gap caused by said magnets or double-stick foam - that there's *nothing* connecting the box conduit-wise to *any* surface.

3. It's a pretty safe bet that the box is a fake.

On the other hand...

1. If the box is permanently mounted (i.e. bolted in place)...

2. And if you can clearly see conduit running from the box, OR if the box is flush mounted to *any* surface, keeping you from getting a clear look at any side of the box...

3. And if it's not mounted to something obviously unsuitable - i.e. a 2x4 strapped onto a tree stump in the middle of a forest...

4. Then you should leave it alone unless you have the skills and equipment to determine whether it's live or not.

January 5, 2006

Forget it, Ian. The thrill of the hide and the hunt trump common sense and safety, you should know that by now.

Here's a seemingly radical thought that you may have not considered: Safety shouldn't *always* come first.

What would the greatest achievements in our history be like if people only did what was safe?

What would our level of science and technology be if people only had done what was safe? Remember, even with modern day precautions and OSHA, you still have space shuttles exploding. Space exploration is always inherently risky (i.e. not safe). Undersea exploration is inherently risky.

And on a less grand scale, if you simply wish to talk about recreation and personal living...

Mountain climbing is inherently risky.

SCUBA diving is inherently risky.

Boxing is inherently risky.

Football is inherently risky.

NASCAR is inherently risky.

Hiking *can* be inherently risky, which means that Geocaching can be inherently risky as well. After all, if you're going for a Terrain of 3-5, and you don't have the skills, experience, or physical ability, you're putting yourself in a potentially unsafe position. Heck, even with all of that, some 5.0's I've seen are still potentially unsafe. Oh, and even with a Terrain of 1.0, you can still come across poisonous plants, spiders, snakes, etc...

But let's not forget - have you looked at accident statistics? Every time you cross the street, you're taking a risk and putting yourself in a potentially unsafe position. Does that mean that you should never leave your house?

So, what kind of life would you have, if safety truly came before *anything* else?

January 5, 2006

This discussion doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, and there has been no response from TPTB. The suggestion that you could SBA a cache that seems obviously dangerous is probably the best resolution. What do you do when the cache in question was placed by the local reviewer, or their friends? Best bet is to probably ignore it, and hope that it doesn't train n00bs to unscrew electrical covers on public lightposts, or to explore the bases of lightposts by feeling only.

I think that 'fake' electrical boxes, or caches attached to real ones aren't the problem. Usually, that is obvious enough without putting a finder in danger. Caches that are in live electrical equipment are dangerous, and it is our responsibility to address those seperately. A general, specific guideline would be nice, but it would always be up to the placer and the finder to observe common sense safety practices. Just like bridges, train tracks, cliffs, and unpredictable microclimates. Overregulation tends to quell creativity. I would suspect that any obviously dangerous caches should be reported to contact@geocaching.com, and let them take responsibility for caches listed on their site.

I fully support caches placed on tops of mountains. Caches superglued into condoms or inside motorcycle gas tanks don't really interest me. :laughing:

22k · January 5, 2006

(Now where did I leave that dead horse picture)

edit: can't spell

Edited January 5, 2006 by BlueDeuce

January 5, 2006

There was a post not to long ago, but long enough I can’t find, where people posted pics of tricky caches. It was this post that opened my eyes up big time. I, living in the country, typically find containers in woods not urban hides.

So when I travel I tend to be in more urban areas for my searches. Having looked at these photos there gave me an ideas where to look in urban areas. One of the caches I found was only because of seeing the pics of what others did. So I searched for a place to get inside the light post. Now if it were not for reading and seeing what other geocachers were hiding their items I would have NEVER touched that light post. When I could not find the caches by regular means I thought that this could be one of those caches hidden in the light post. Sure enough it was.

I know yall been beating what is real and not real electrical outlet, box, item ect… But I think your missing the basic principle.

I found one in a lamp post next time I can’t find one in an area where do I start looking at? The equipment around the area, that’s where.

The photos I saw of some of the fake equipment were made pretty darn well using actual electrical boxes and conduit. Just because something is mounted to a wall and has no conduit showing does not mean that it is not hardwired in the wall.

Electrical outlet in the middle of the woods. Yes it is cute idea and I would probably think it was funny if I came across one. But I even have to remind myself of people like my father who buried a cable from his house to a pine tree far from his house so he could have electrical power out there when doing work. Granted this is his private property and no one would be caching there but it does make me think.

Hiding a cache on the outside of such items is one thing, given the area itself is safe, but to have people actually open, dismantle, or unscrew anything electrical or machine oriented is bad news.

I don’t also want to hear how electrical boxes have locks and taper seal tags on them. In my youthful days when board I took up removing the tamper seals that they would put on outside of the electrical boxes. (yea I know but that’s what I did at times as a kid) My point here is what’s to say some kid out there doing the same just like I did.

John Doe and family goes looking for cache in a park can’t find it so he starts looking at a bath house (restroom – what you like to call it) notices on the side of the wall an odd junction box that partially open (due to kids) and John Doe kid does what kids do at time and stick his hands in before looking.

Granted none of this has happened but why start teaching people to look in places that should be off limits. Taking the stance of if you can’t tell if it live don’t touch does not work. You put the cache there and the cacher wants to find it.

January 5, 2006

Forget it, Ian. The thrill of the hide and the hunt trump common sense and safety, you should know that by now.

Here's a seemingly radical thought that you may have not considered: Safety shouldn't *always* come first.

What would the greatest achievements in our history be like if people only did what was safe?

What would our level of science and technology be if people only had done what was safe? Remember, even with modern day precautions and OSHA, you still have space shuttles exploding. Space exploration is always inherently risky (i.e. not safe). Undersea exploration is inherently risky.

And on a less grand scale, if you simply wish to talk about recreation and personal living...

Mountain climbing is inherently risky.

SCUBA diving is inherently risky.

Boxing is inherently risky.

Football is inherently risky.

NASCAR is inherently risky.

Hiking *can* be inherently risky, which means that Geocaching can be inherently risky as well. After all, if you're going for a Terrain of 3-5, and you don't have the skills, experience, or physical ability, you're putting yourself in a potentially unsafe position. Heck, even with all of that, some 5.0's I've seen are still potentially unsafe. Oh, and even with a Terrain of 1.0, you can still come across poisonous plants, spiders, snakes, etc...

But let's not forget - have you looked at accident statistics? Every time you cross the street, you're taking a risk and putting yourself in a potentially unsafe position. Does that mean that you should never leave your house?

So, what kind of life would you have, if safety truly came before *anything* else?

We are not trying to build and invent new things here, just trying to enjoy a recreational past time.

And safety is a concern for

Mountain climbing

SCUBA diving

Boxing

Football

NASCAR

When is the last time a football player had to find his helmet in an electrical box? When is the last time a scuba diver had to open a light post underwater to get to an emergency breathing apparatus? When was the last time a boxed had to search in a transformer for his gloves? When was the last time a NASCAR driver had to do a race with the electrical wires all over the floor of his car?

Yes they all have risk but not those that are preventable. Accidents happen in life so using walking across a street is pointless. If you want to go that far then being conceived is a risk when you account for genetic defects, chemical imbalances or your new parents to be life style. This is not about typical risk this is about people making caches that can make people comfortable with these types of caches and then one person makes a dreadful mistake.

3.9k · January 5, 2006

I would not expect TPTB at Geocaching.com to make a rule against electrical boxes. At least not for safety reasons. That's a ommunity issue. It is also unsafe to put a cache on a cliffside, in a cactus, under a clump of Poison Ivy, or down a trail where bears have been know to pass through. Now if there is a law against it, then that is a different story.

18.9k · January 5, 2006

I have found 6 or 7 of these and all were pretty obvious as to shich was the "fake" box. (obvious to me anyway).

The one I went looking for that wasn't obvious - I just skipped it. Didn't want to endanger myself.

I think these kind of caches can be done safely - mark the box with a mini sticker from the Geocaching.com store or simply write the GCxxxx code on it. Or some other kind of code. Nobody should be expected to open things up while exploring for the cache. Should not open anything until you know for sure. And never place a cache near exposed wiring!

January 5, 2006

Electrical outlet in the middle of the woods. Yes it is cute idea and I would probably think it was funny if I came across one.

If you try to place an outlet in the woods in Maryland, you have better not try tp stick it in the ground. I have been warned about that. I was told my mailbox was not a good idea along a road, but I could put it in the woods. But I was specifically told not to dig a hole for it as that was against the rules. So if you want to put your outlet on the end of a conduit, you will have to just lay it on the ground.

I have no idea what goes through the minds of reviewers.

January 5, 2006

Electrical outlet in the middle of the woods. Yes it is cute idea and I would probably think it was funny if I came across one.

If you try to place an outlet in the woods in Maryland, you have better not try tp stick it in the ground. I have been warned about that. I was told my mailbox was not a good idea along a road, but I could put it in the woods. But I was specifically told not to dig a hole for it as that was against the rules. So if you want to put your outlet on the end of a conduit, you will have to just lay it on the ground.

I have no idea what goes through the minds of reviewers.

Man looking at the monkey then reading your post made me laugh.

Next time command the ground to insert the post itself.

:laughing: :unsure:

January 5, 2006

I would not expect TPTB at Geocaching.com to make a rule against electrical boxes. At least not for safety reasons. That's a ommunity issue. It is also unsafe to put a cache on a cliffside, in a cactus, under a clump of Poison Ivy, or down a trail where bears have been know to pass through. Now if there is a law against it, then that is a different story.

It is also unsafe to put a cache on a cliffside -- That’s what the difficulty rating is for.

cactus, under a clump of Poison Ivy, or down a trail where bears have been know to pass through -- These are normal hazards of geocaching and of general hiking - A football player running into another is part of the sport.

There is a rating for terrain not a rating for possible contact with electrical or mechanical items.

Edited January 5, 2006 by pcfrog

January 5, 2006

On the flip side of that, if you're going to place a cache like that, make it obvious to a cacher, either through a note on the cache page, or the Geocaching logo on the box or such.

I don't think people will want to do this, either because the surprise is given away on the cache page, or because the geo-logo or other visual clue at the cache site would make the find an overly obvious difficulty 1. And in the example of the cache my daughter hunted with me that was hidden inside a lamp post access panel next to wires, the cache was so tiny that there were no clues to say "yes, it's in here, you are supposed to be poking around in here.".

That brings up a different debate: Are we hiding caches from muggles, or from other cachers? I used to think that the whole idea was to hide something that would be invisible from the general public, but that a cacher could find easily. In the case of caches that are fake electrical boxes, I think that they work great for hiding from the general public, but need something to tell a cacher that it is the cache.

To those that are worried that their kids might learn from these caches that electrical boxes are toys, I say this: Take responsability for your kids. Teach them that electrical boxes aren't safe to open, and be the one responsable for showing a good example. In otherwords, don't hunt this style cache with the kids.

Sometimes easier said than done, again because of people not doing what you've recommended above. Much of the time you have no idea exactly what you'll be encountering at the cache site, given the propensity to give minimal cache descriptions ("Nice fun hide at the mall. No hints"). When my daughter and I pull up in the parking lot, we don't know it will be a fake electric box next to two real ones. At that point you've driven three miles, missed a turn, goofed up your autorouting, waited through an incredibly long red light, and dodged mall security. It is hard to walk away sometimes. But more and more often, that is just what we do. Our "didn't bother looking" ratio was 50% on our last trip. And that's sad, IMHO. It makes it harder to get my daughter motivated to go out caching.

I understand that you don't always know that the cache will be a fake electrical box, but my point is that if you are concerned about the Little Lep learning the wrong thing, don't open the box when you are there at the cache site. Point out to her that you don't think that it is a good idea. Or, explain the difference quite well, then open the box, but tell her that she should never open such a box without supervision.

Thats my whole point, take responsabilty for teaching the right things (not that I think you don't, I'm saying this to the world)

Edited January 5, 2006 by VegasCacheHounds

3.9k · January 5, 2006

I would not expect TPTB at Geocaching.com to make a rule against electrical boxes. At least not for safety reasons. That's a ommunity issue. It is also unsafe to put a cache on a cliffside, in a cactus, under a clump of Poison Ivy, or down a trail where bears have been know to pass through. Now if there is a law against it, then that is a different story.

It is also unsafe to put a cache on a cliffside -- That’s what the difficulty rating is for.

cactus, under a clump of Poison Ivy, or down a trail where bears have been know to pass through -- These are normal hazards of geocaching and of general hiking - A football player running into another is part of the sport.

That's my point. I do not expect TPTB to change anything, or they will have to change all things related to safety.

You should know whats safe for you. You should know what's not safe for you. It doesn't seem right to expect Geocaching.com to make rules for you to protect yourself. If you don't feel comfortable about a particular hide, then don't seek it. If you feel it is unsafe, talk to the owner and/or your local caching organization.

3.5k · January 5, 2006

I have no idea what goes through the minds of reviewers.

I do, it's called the guidelines.

This thread seems to be more about safety in cache placement than about reviewers. Let's try to keep it on topic.

Bret

Edited January 5, 2006 by CYBret

January 5, 2006

I think that we need to take another look at one of the other aspects of Geocaching in light of the revelation that a fake electrical box cache will lead to cachers opening real ones: The ammo can.

All these caches hidden in ammo cans is just teaching cachers to blindly open ammo cans, regardless of where it is, and sticking their hands inside. Heck, that ammo box may still contain ammo! :laughing:

In fact, this has come up before: LINK

Where does it stop indeed.....if we ban all cache containers that may lead to some dumba** injuring themself, then we'll eventually have nothing to hunt for.

January 5, 2006

Umm, okay.

Censorship is fun!

My opinion in this matter is that the OP is worried too much about something he knows too little about.

Is that an opinion I am allowed to have?

My opinion is backed by my experience doing electical work and strengthened by my dislike for rules and restrictions being placed on me for no good reason. I don't see much of a difference between the OP and those campaining to have geocaches banned in South Carolina cemetaries.

It is also my opinion that the moderator who deleted my post chose to do so in a way that was intentionally defamatory to myself by choosing to label my post as a personal attack when "content deleted" or something similar would have been sufficient.

What I wrote was my interpretation of the OP's message. It was "when I read your post, this is what I hear in my mind". I would welcome such a naked view of anyone else's interpretation of my own words.

January 5, 2006

Everyone paints their ammo cans, and normally has Geocache written on it. I think if you wrote Geocaching on the electrical outlet hides, then most of us in this thread, who opposes them would, would not be objecting as strongly.

Jackie

January 5, 2006

That's my point. I do not expect TPTB to change anything, or they will have to change all things related to safety.

You should know whats safe for you. You should know what's not safe for you. It doesn't seem right to expect Geocaching.com to make rules for you to protect yourself. If you don't feel comfortable about a particular hide, then don't seek it. If you feel it is unsafe, talk to the owner and/or your local caching organization.

I personally don't care if it’s a rule or not. It just should be something that should be steered clear of.

you don't feel comfortable about a particular hide, then don't seek it.

This would be great but there is no symbol for electrical component hidden. As mentioned above you only know most time that you’re looking for cache and if the owner is nice they give you a size. If they really nice they tell you what type of container to look for.

I don’t live in a city to be able to only drive 3-10 miles to a cache and say oh well. Most my caches are in the 30+ mile drives.

1 tank gas - $30

Out longer that expected need more food - $10+

So after spending $40+ dollars an hour or several getting to a cache I don’t want to get to a cache and go oh geez this might be one of those. This is just me. I logged my DNFs and that’s what happens.

However, when you get those few cachers that lack common sense they will go to all ends to find that cache since they have so much invested.

We heard about how some cachers will tear a place apart looking for a cache. BLAH BLAH BLAH ok I will stop rambling

I think point been made and I think you see the point. I see yours and agree with your view to a point as well. My concern is when I see these is not entirely for me but those few idiots, or very unfortunate people that will go opening and taking things apart because they want to find that cache.

VegasCacheHounds

That brings up a different debate: Are we hiding caches from muggles, or from other cachers? I used to think that the whole idea was to hide something that would be invisible from the general public, but that a cacher could find easily. In the case of caches that are fake electrical boxes, I think that they work great for hiding from the general public, but need something to tell a cacher that it is the cache.

Great if only you could guarantee that all these are marked visibly (once one is looking at front of item) with GC.com symbol.

I don’t think that will happen because I seen to many caches that don’t even have a cache label on them to help identify them upfront to public safety officials.

January 5, 2006

For example, I have a cache that is a real electrical box that I purchased and gutted. I installed it with conduit leading into the ground to make it look real, and added stickers warning of high voltage and authorized personnel only - a previous cache was stollen, this one has not been The cache is locked with a combination lock, which can only be opened by a series of questions that can be answered from objects in the park. The cache is attached to a brick wall in a park, and has permission from the park maintenance manager.

Ok, so today I go out and find this one.

Tomorrow, I find one of the light pole caches.

Saturday, I am searching for another one of your caches behind a building and having a hard time finding it. I notice an electrical box on the back of the building. It has conduit running to it, and "Warning- high voltage" and "unauthorized personell" stickers.

This is 2 days after finding a cache in a similar box from the same hider.

Would that make me "stupid" for opening the box?

Or would it be that my past expirience has shown me that this hider likes to do these hides, and it is likely that he did it again?

Maybe he didn't feel like putting the lock on this one? Maybe a previous hider forgot to put the lock back on? Maybe it isn't the cache and I just cant find the real cache.

Point is, I don't know. What I do know is that this hider, at least, does use electrical boxes for at least some of his caches and that there is an electrical box that looks "real" at the coordinates of another one of his caches.

I think a lot of people- not just the "stupid" ones- would check it out.

January 5, 2006

Everyone paints their ammo cans, and normally has Geocache written on it. I think if you wrote Geocaching on the electrical outlet hides, then most of us in this thread, who opposes them would, would not be objecting as strongly.

Jackie

As I said most I seen are not and still have the ammo markings clearly on it.

3.9k · January 5, 2006

Everyone paints their ammo cans, and normally has Geocache written on it. I think if you wrote Geocaching on the electrical outlet hides, then most of us in this thread, who opposes them would, would not be objecting as strongly.

Jackie

I wonder how well this rule would go over..

"All caches must be clearly marked with the word 'geocache' or the geocaching logo clearly visible for anybody walking by".

/moderator mode on:

lets keep this conversation about electrical boxes and safety, not about moderation (or overmoderation). That can be discussed in it's own thread, OK?

/moderator mode off

January 5, 2006

I have no idea what goes through the minds of reviewers.

I do, it's called the guidelines.

This thread seems to be more about safety in cache placement than about reviewers. Let's try to keep it on topic.

Bret

This is a quote from the guidelines. Thanks CY for directing us there. :laughing:

Also, clearly label your physical containers on the outside with appropriate information to reduce the risk of your cache being perceived as a danger to those that are unaware of our sport.

Jackie

January 5, 2006

For example, I have a cache that is a real electrical box that I purchased and gutted. I installed it with conduit leading into the ground to make it look real, and added stickers warning of high voltage and authorized personnel only - a previous cache was stollen, this one has not been The cache is locked with a combination lock, which can only be opened by a series of questions that can be answered from objects in the park. The cache is attached to a brick wall in a park, and has permission from the park maintenance manager.

Ok, so today I go out and find this one.

Tomorrow, I find one of the light pole caches.

Saturday, I am searching for another one of your caches behind a building and having a hard time finding it. I notice an electrical box on the back of the building. It has conduit running to it, and "Warning- high voltage" and "unauthorized personell" stickers.

This is 2 days after finding a cache in a similar box from the same hider.

Would that make me "stupid" for opening the box?

Or would it be that my past expirience has shown me that this hider likes to do these hides, and it is likely that he did it again?

Maybe he didn't feel like putting the lock on this one? Maybe a previous hider forgot to put the lock back on? Maybe it isn't the cache and I just cant find the real cache.

Point is, I don't know. What I do know is that this hider, at least, does use electrical boxes for at least some of his caches and that there is an electrical box that looks "real" at the coordinates of another one of his caches.

I think a lot of people- not just the "stupid" ones- would check it out.

DITO

3.2k · January 5, 2006

Some will make these hides and others won't. I don't think either camp will convince the other. Personally, I will never make this type of hide unless it is in some really obvious place such as an unconnected outlet box on the side of a tree in the woods or some other such silly thing.

3.9k · January 5, 2006

Very valid, chances of finding a consensus are slim.

Next topic - sprinklers. If a cacher finds one, they will be taking apart others thinking they are there. (the cache was actualy in one of the pine cones). Although not a safety issue, it is an issue of property damage to public parks. (pretend nobody had to dig a hole to place the other one)

Edit: Not really next topic, only sowing examples of the topic header "Where does it stop?"

Edited January 5, 2006 by Moose Mob

January 5, 2006

This is 2 days after finding a cache in a similar box from the same hider.

Would that make me "stupid" for opening the box?

No, you wouldn't be stupid for opening the box.

But if you opened the box and saw nothing but wires inside and still thought it was a geocache, well then you are stupid.*

By the way, despite all the warnings we recieved as a child and what we see on tv, electricity isn't all that dangerous. Opening up an electical box that is live is not inherently dangerous unless you go probing around in there. Even if you do go probing around in the box, the wire would have to have severe damage to the insulator to get a shock from it. Either that or you grabbed an exposed lug. Even if you do grab something that is energized, you would need to also be touching some other ground or neutral wire or grounded metal part. The actual ground (like dirt) doesn't count. Even if you do get a shock you aren't going to die from grabbing the wrong wires, or even get hurt! You will feel it, and probably reflexivly jerk your hand away, but you want be injured in any way. That requires thousands of volts.**

* the poster asked the question of what would make them stupid. I have replied in a purely hypothetical spirit. The word "you" is meant to represent a hypothetical person. In no way should this post be construed as a personal attack on anyone. docapi is obviously an intelligent individual who is seeking opinions for the purpose of intellectual discussion and I have respect for him/her.

** I have done a lot of electrical work and have recieved many shocks as a result from voltage sources as high as 220V. Basically, it tingles, hard. I have been known to test circuits by touching the wires intentionally. Say what you will, ohm's law is on my side.

Edited January 5, 2006 by BigWhiteTruck

11.3k · January 5, 2006

(Now where did I leave that dead horse picture)

Here it is . . . :blink:

January 5, 2006

I would actually add what I feel to be the most practical argument against these sorts of hides. The fact that it would likely not just be the hider, but also Groundspeak, named on the resulting, almost guaranteed win of a lawsuit. Remember, McDonald's paid $40,000,000 for the revelation that coffee is hot...

Rich;)

If you wanted to keep people from doing things that *might* get someone sued, no one would ever get out of bed. Ever. And even then, someone would try suing Sleepy's for selling such comfortable beds that lead to bed sores.

p.s. As a side note, the McDonald's lawsuit you're referring to was actually a lot more substantial than that. That "sued because their coffee is hot" line is just the oversimplified hype that ended up being circulated by everyone.

right. on appeal, the reward was $480,000 (McFacts about the McDonald's case).

here's what i do:

-place caches that are reasonable, though admittedly i don't have any of those fun, creative urban hides.

-seek caches that are reasonable. if i am begin seeking a cache and it seems unsafe for whatever reason, i'll stop the search and either log a DNF or a note. if i came across one that seemed downright dangerous, i'd post a SBA.

everything else... well, i guess i'm at as much risk for a lawsuit as i am every time i get into my car.

tossedsalad, the reason you can't find any info on a members only cache is because you have to be a premium member... you aren't given info on the cache because it's not available for you to search as a non-premium member.

January 5, 2006

Even if you do get a shock you aren't going to die from grabbing the wrong wires, or even get hurt! You will feel it, and probably reflexivly jerk your hand away, but you want be injured in any way. That requires thousands of volts.**

** I have done a lot of electrical work and have recieved many shocks as a result from voltage sources as high as 220V. Basically, it tingles, hard.

You may have done a lot of electrical work - but that seemingly does not imply any actual knowledge of electricity. It's not the voltage that kills you - it's the amperage. You can be killed by as low as a few tens of volts if the conditions are right, equally you can survive thousands of volts if the conditions are right. I personally have seen a guys heart stopped by 24 volts. (Much depends on the path the voltage take through your body.)

I have been known to test circuits by touching the wires intentionally.

There's a word for that - but the moderators rate it's usage that as a personal attack.

January 5, 2006

Electrical Safety

Check it out - For example, 1/10 of an ampere (amp) of electricity going through the body for just 2 seconds is enough to cause death.

Like someone said lots of work but little understanding.

January 5, 2006

You may have done a lot of electrical work - but that seemingly does not imply any actual knowledge of electricity. It's not the voltage that kills you - it's the amperage.

People who use the "it's not voltage, it's amperage" line generally don't understand electricity either. If you did, you would know that amperage (or current if you want to sound like you know what you are talking about) is a slave to voltage and resistance. The high resistance of you body necessitates a very large voltage to deliver a lethal current. Look up ohm's law.

January 5, 2006

Electrical Safety

Check it out - For example, 1/10 of an ampere (amp) of electricity going through the body for just 2 seconds is enough to cause death.

Like someone said lots of work but little understanding.

A 1500mAh (pretty standard) AA battery can provide that much current for 15 hours.

That's 27,000 electrocuted people.

WATCH OUT!

22k · January 5, 2006

January 5, 2006

Electrical Safety

Check it out - For example, 1/10 of an ampere (amp) of electricity going through the body for just 2 seconds is enough to cause death.

Like someone said lots of work but little understanding.

A 1500mAh (pretty standard) AA battery can provide that much current for 15 hours.

That's 27,000 electrocuted people.

WATCH OUT!

Hummm

There is a diferance between getting mAh shock and a mA shock in one or two seconds.

Also I guess those people who died in the past in homes and bussiness did not know what you knew and if they did they would still be alive.

Edited January 5, 2006 by pcfrog

January 5, 2006

Think I do the same

3.9k · January 5, 2006

This thread needs to get back on track.

1.3k · January 5, 2006

I don't think it has to stop. In fact, if TPTB attempt to limit imaginative (legal) hides in the name of "safety" or "for our own good" I'm sure many people will be ticked off and you'll see a few threads in here titled "Where Does it Stop?" :blink:

Edit: Added (legal).

Edited again to make it funnier. (I hope)

Edited January 5, 2006 by Trinity's Crew

1.3k · January 5, 2006

Oh, and I guess I can place my "hornets nest" cache now. I was looking for an "active nest" to place it near and I think I found it in this thread. :blink:

January 5, 2006

There is a diferance between getting mAh shock and a mA shock in one or two seconds.

You don't even know what mAh means, how can you say something like that?

sticklers:

this thread IS on topic. we are discussing the dangers that electricity poses to geocachers

January 5, 2006

You may have done a lot of electrical work - but that seemingly does not imply any actual knowledge of electricity. It's not the voltage that kills you - it's the amperage.

People who use the "it's not voltage, it's amperage" line generally don't understand electricity either.

Right. People like the professionals who right safety manuals for the Navy. People like the certified Master Electrician I go camping with now and again... Folks who don't understand electricity.

If you did, you would know that amperage (or current if you want to sound like you know what you are talking about) is a slave to voltage and resistance. The high resistance of you body necessitates a very large voltage to deliver a lethal current. Look up ohm's law.

Your bodies resistance is not always high. If your skin is even slightly moister than normal, for example, your bodies total resistance drops (dramatically). A break in your skin also can lower your resistance. (It's the skin that largely determines your total resistance.) It's also the total resistance of the entire circuit, of which your body is only a small part, that determings the amperage you experience.

The bald fact is this: Regardless of your claims, people die from voltages of much less than 'thousands of volts'. Unless of course you don't believe the Center for Disease Control. This chart (from this report) shows the number of work related deaths from 1980-1992 by voltages of less than 'thousands of volts'. (And that's just work related deaths - more die in household incidents.)

January 5, 2006

What I wrote was my interpretation of the OP's message. It was "when I read your post, this is what I hear in my mind". I would welcome such a naked view of anyone else's interpretation of my own words.

I found it quite degrading and childish. :blink:

January 5, 2006

I'm still amazed that people are defending the practice of hiding caches on/near/diguised as electrical equipment. Its very clear that selfish motivations for numbers are winning out over common sense for some folks.

Here is my advice for GC.com: As an engineer with an actual university degree, a technical degree, more than 5 years of experience, countless hours of safety training, and whose JOB IT IS TO ADVISE COMPANIES REGARDING SAFETY ISSUES...Add a line to your cache placement guidelines prohibiting caches on, near, or made to resemble utility equipment, or sources of power.

That advice is free. Normally I charge for it.

Where Does It Stop?

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