Where Does It Stop?

January 4, 2006

I had posted about this topic many moons ago on a local forum. My post is as follows:

Safety.

There is precious little written about safety on GC.com... The

sport of geocaching is full of natural hazards... snakes, cliffs,

water hazards, etc. I'm concerned with a lack of attention to MAN-

MADE hazards that many geocaches bring cache-finders in proximity

to. I think we all agree that natural hazards are part of the

sport. Natural hazards are not the topic of my discussion here.

Let me qualify my statements by stating I am a trained engineer, and

routinely work with industrial electrical equipment, chemical

equipment, and other sources of power. I have had EXTENSIVE safety

training, and am familiar with OSHA and ASME safety guidelines, and

best-practices in industry. What follows is more than mere personal

opinion, and is the opinion of a qualified and trained professional.

My first example of an unsafe cache, is a cache in a storm drain.

These caches are a lot of fun, but are also a serious danger for

those who seek them. There are laws prohibiting entry into storm

drains by un-authorized/trained individuals, and a lack of a "No

Trespassing" sign, or gate does not imply consent to enter these

areas. There was a potentially lethal incident recently in Erie

where some cachers were washed out of a storm drain while seeking a

cache. A little more rain on that day could easily have killed them.

Other unsafe caches, are those either disguised as electrical

equipment, ON electrical equipment, or most importantly, promote

PROBING of electrical equipment. Electrical transformers, junction

boxes, electrical service boxes etc are generally hazardous areas.

Caches placed in close proximity to these areas promote the very

unsafe behavior of touching the equipment. Usually, caches in these

areas are themselves placed safely, but when that searching behavior

is brought elsewhere, it brings with it complacency towards very

real electrical hazards. There is an incorrect assumption that

poking, pulling, and prodding this equipment will not kill you.

I've seen other caches disguised as potential sources of power, that

by finding requires one to perform potentially unsafe acts, if that

cache were indeed what it was designed to look like. (For example,

opening a potentially pressurized gas line)

There are other caches hidden under access panels, covers and guards

that are designed to keep the public OUT of those areas.

So what do we do?

Edited January 4, 2006 by Ian5281

January 4, 2006

Proposed and/or actually NOT ALLOWED
caches in fake electrical boxes, hazard - cachers thinking this means all electrical boxes are caches

caches in fake mailboxes, hazard - uh, having to talk to the mailman to explain why this box is not being used for mail???

I think you're guilty here of the same thing that we all do at one time or another, which is to assume that everyone thinks the same way you do. Just because YOU aren't going to ever check a live electrical box for a cache based on your experience in finding caches in fake electrical boxes, doesn't mean that everyone else is as observant and experienced.

I know of at least two local caches hidden in fake mailboxes. I don't think anyone is quibbling with the letter of the law, but again, apparently not everyone thinks the way you do about this particular issue. My guess is that there was a simple disconnect between your description of the hide/container and the reviewer's understanding of it.

I didn't post my comment about the mailbox as a point of discussion, but there was no confusion about the nature of the container. I communicated in much more detail than I posted here and made it VERY clear that there was no way a reasonable person could assume that this was a mailbox under the regulations of the post office.

My point was as a contrast to the very real dangers of some of the caches that are approved with the approver *KNOWING* about the dangers. In the caches I mentioned the dangers were described at length in the cache description and more than one of these caches were discussed at length in a forum thread complete with pictures of cachers in dangerous (as in not well controlled) situations. I have no doubt that the reveiwer is involved in these forums and has seen the threads I am mentioning.

There are always dangers associated with any activity. Of course you don't want to promote activities that have a high level of risk if you can't handle the outcomes. But we are not talking about creating a dangerous situation, we are talking about people doing stupid things because they can't separate reality from make believe. Those people can create dangerous situations no matter how much you try to protect them. I prefer not to be protected along with them.

I just don't see how putting a cache in a fake electrical box is going to make anyone a *more* dangerous cacher. If they are going to stick a screwdriver in a real electrical box, they are already too dangerous to cache. Nothing I do will have any effect on them.

(Notice how I described what are essentially stupid people without using the word stupid!)... opps, I guess I just did. ;-)

January 4, 2006

I have found a few that were in light poles. I don't think that the ones in the false base (usually able to lift right up) of the light pole, but there are a couple that were up in the pole near wiring, or required the finder to take a tool to the light pole (public street lamp) to find the cache. I think that these types of caches should be archived, both for the safety issues it presents, and the image it puts forth of geocachers.

Consider the plethora of sprinkler head caches. How many people have found a few of these, enough that they wind up tugging on perfectly good sprinkler heads to test them. I found one of these in an environment where it was clearly out of place. That was great! Transfer the analogy to light pole/electrical box caches. Maybe the great and creative cache was well planned, and totally safe, but then impressionable cachers are ore likely to proceed to the next pole and probe areas they shouldn't. Nevermind the image of someone taking tools to public light poles in this post 911 world.

If these types of caches are against guidelines, do we report them to contact@geocaching.com? I have tried to address lawbreaking caches with the cache placers in the past with negligable results.

January 4, 2006

Ian5281,

I hear what you are saying. But GC.com has no direct rule about such dangers. It is only covered under the general rule about sensible caches. This leaves it totally open to interpretation by the reviewer. The result is that some caches that are designed to be as dangerous as possible are approved by reviewers while the very hazardous "mailbox" cache is not allowed by others. Actually thinking back, these caches may both have been approved by the same reviewer, but I'm not certain of that.

So you tell me, what *do* we do about it??? I don't plan to do anything about it except to rethink my efforts in placing caches. I have to spend a lot of effort to plan a cache that is not just another tupperware container in the woods (although it is rather fun to hunt them with billion dollar military satellites) and I don't appreciate having them archived or rejected after I do all the work. At this point the guidelines and their interpretations seem to be all over the map depending on the reviewer and the phase of the moon. How can you plan a good cache in this environment with a reasonable expectation of having it approved and not later archived?

January 4, 2006

I have found a few that were in light poles. I don't think that the ones in the false base (usually able to lift right up) of the light pole, but there are a couple that were up in the pole near wiring, or required the finder to take a tool to the light pole (public street lamp) to find the cache. I think that these types of caches should be archived, both for the safety issues it presents, and the image it puts forth of geocachers.

Consider the plethora of sprinkler head caches. How many people have found a few of these, enough that they wind up tugging on perfectly good sprinkler heads to test them. I found one of these in an environment where it was clearly out of place. That was great! Transfer the analogy to light pole/electrical box caches. Maybe the great and creative cache was well planned, and totally safe, but then impressionable cachers are ore likely to proceed to the next pole and probe areas they shouldn't. Nevermind the image of someone taking tools to public light poles in this post 911 world.

If these types of caches are against guidelines, do we report them to contact@geocaching.com? I have tried to address lawbreaking caches with the cache placers in the past with negligable results.

One other comment about this thread and I will retire for the evening. You mention contacting the cache placers. Many caches are for premium members only. If a cache is inappropriate for what ever reason, you can't contact the owner of one of these because you can't find out who they are. Likewise if you are a non-cacher and want to discuss a cache that may be a problem for you, the premium member only caches are a barrier to even getting information about these caches.

So how do you check into a potentially dangerous cache when it is for premium members only?

January 4, 2006

How is it that you're unable to find out who owns subscriber-only caches?

I don't agree that a cache that requires climbing a cliff or hanging over a bridge is of the same order of concern. Climbing a cliff is obviously dangerous. Touching a fake electrical box is of course not dangerous; the danger is more insidious in the way it changes seeking methodologies and tendencies. If hiders utilizing these methods were to increase difficulty ratings across the board to indicate that danger, that would at least be an improvement.

I don't agree that concerns about reviewer inconsistency are valid to this discussion, either; that's just obfuscating the issue, which is the danger or lack therof of this type of hide.

Anyway. I do agree that this thread has run its course. All the best to all concerned.

January 4, 2006

I have found a few that were in light poles. I don't think that the ones in the false base (usually able to lift right up) of the light pole, but there are a couple that were up in the pole near wiring, or required the finder to take a tool to the light pole (public street lamp) to find the cache. I think that these types of caches should be archived, both for the safety issues it presents, and the image it puts forth of geocachers.

Consider the plethora of sprinkler head caches. How many people have found a few of these, enough that they wind up tugging on perfectly good sprinkler heads to test them. I found one of these in an environment where it was clearly out of place. That was great! Transfer the analogy to light pole/electrical box caches. Maybe the great and creative cache was well planned, and totally safe, but then impressionable cachers are ore likely to proceed to the next pole and probe areas they shouldn't. Nevermind the image of someone taking tools to public light poles in this post 911 world.

If these types of caches are against guidelines, do we report them to contact@geocaching.com? I have tried to address lawbreaking caches with the cache placers in the past with negligable results.

Again, hopefully they will do it before they have a chance to reproduce and further pollute the gene pool. If we try to hard to protect people from their own stupidity there will be no end to the restrictions and controls placed on the game. There seems to be a tendancy to blame the rules or the environment for a stupid act instead of the individual. I personally don't think we need to foster poeples inability to take responsibility for their actions. They do just fine on their own.

January 4, 2006

How is it that you're unable to find out who owns subscriber-only caches?

This is all I get when I try to pull up one of these caches.

" An Error Has Occured

Sorry, the owner of this listing has made it viewable to subscribers only. Visit the premium member page to find out how to upgrade your account to a premium member."

If I were concerned about a cache either because I thought it was a poor cache or because I was a property owner who felt it was affecting my property, how would I find out about it?

I don't agree that concerns about reviewer inconsistency are valid to this discussion, either; that's just obfuscating the issue, which is the danger or lack therof of this type of hide.

I believe that was part of the issue. Some of these electical caches are approved and some are not showing that the cache placement rules are very subjective and provide a framework where a very wide variation in standards are enforced. This only makes the problem worse. You never know if a given type of cache hide is allowed or not and there is no guidance on how to use this sort of hide safely.

I have found caches in an outdoor electrical outlet box. I suspected the box, I lifted the cover and could clearly see the cache was there. I believe I have found two of these. No danger at any time regardless of whether this was a real electrical outlet or not. But if a hide is done near live wires or if a fake outlet must be disassembled with a screwdriver, then this type of hide is inherently dangerous in the way you describe. The difference is uneven application of the cache placement rules that may allow this sort of cache.

I don't agree that allowing caches disguised as electrical devices are inherently dangerous. It just does not follow that such a cache would make a cacher explore electrical devices in dangerous ways any more than putting caches in rocks makes a cacher explore rocks in dangerous ways. Caching safely is up to the cacher, not the cache.

January 4, 2006

there seems to be a problem here if i placed an elec. box in the woods ( and i would not) as per the rules of hiding a cache it would be clearly marked as a geocache,or hidden on opposite side of tree from trail and painted BRIGHT RED i am talking about the small outlet boxes we all have in our homes. If you think like einstein try to think like you are NOT him ( im no einstein i havent gotten my first approved yet:( hahaha on me )

Edited January 4, 2006 by Lowsky

January 4, 2006

After some thinking on my own and some of the things I have read in the forums, I have gotten to this point. I think a lot of people are pushing the limits. Caches hidden as electrical outlets etc. are the things I am speaking of. I notice these edge pushing things are becoming a norm. I don't think they are proper. I feel approvers should ask the question when reviewing caches to have the owner explain the hide or provide a picture. Some hides push the limits by being a pine cone etc, and that is one thing. But as a whole, I am noticing (and hearing) of people putting things out that could be dangerous to cachers trying to find the hide.

I have found the fake electric box and don't think it is a good idea because when someone feels they have to open something electrical because it is the only place that makes sense for the cache to be, they are setting themself up for the biggest shock of their life. (no pun intended)

I think as more cachers push the limit, we have to curtail this enthuasiam somehow.

You asked for opinions so here is what your post sounds like to me:

Dear Geocaching Community,

<...personal attack deleted>

You know what, why don't you work to get geocaches banned on top of hills in case of lightning storms or tornadoes.?

Edited January 4, 2006 by Quiggle

January 4, 2006

After some thinking on my own and some of the things I have read in the forums, I have gotten to this point. I think a lot of people are pushing the limits. Caches hidden as electrical outlets etc. are the things I am speaking of. I notice these edge pushing things are becoming a norm. I don't think they are proper. I feel approvers should ask the question when reviewing caches to have the owner explain the hide or provide a picture. Some hides push the limits by being a pine cone etc, and that is one thing. But as a whole, I am noticing (and hearing) of people putting things out that could be dangerous to cachers trying to find the hide.

I have found the fake electric box and don't think it is a good idea because when someone feels they have to open something electrical because it is the only place that makes sense for the cache to be, they are setting themself up for the biggest shock of their life. (no pun intended)

I think as more cachers push the limit, we have to curtail this enthuasiam somehow.

You asked for opinions so here is what your post sounds like to me:

Dear Geocaching Community,

<...personal attack deleted...>

You know what, why don't you work to get geocaches banned on top of hills in case of lightning storms or tornadoes.?

LOL

Edited January 4, 2006 by Quiggle

January 4, 2006

I just wanted to make some general comments here, in the spirit of this thread. I may seem to range a bit off topic, but bear with me, because it's relevant.

Many of the world's largest societies (most notably, but not exclusively, the US) have become very much a risk-averse culture. Not that many years ago, it was generally understood that life *is* risk. And worthwhile gain rarely comes easily or without risk.

Nowadays, our society has gotten to the point where people are pointing out anything and everything that could possibly cause harm, and demanding regulation and legislation to curtail actions which *might* conceivably lead to harm. People have begun to take common-sense type caution and bring it to a point where it has become stifling.

Many of the greatest achievements in history were accomplished only at high risk. Combating a corrupt government, taking a stand against slavery, experimenting with nuclear physics, attempting space travel - the list goes on and on.

What would have happened if society was there pushing everyone back in their seats because - <gasp!> someone could get hurt! Please.

Regulation is in place making it illegal to use cellphones while driving. Why? Because if someone isn't paying enough attention, they might get into an accident. Do I think it's a serious problem if people aren't paying attention while driving? Hells yes! Do I think it should be *regulated*? Hells no! Going by that reasoning, CHILDREN should be banned from automobiles. Certainly they can cause an order of magnitude more distraction than any cell phone conversation. Also, we should ban makeup, car stereos.... hell, why stop there? Let's make it illegal to have passengers! After all, it's been discovered that it's not *holding* the cell phone that's the problem, it's being distracted by conversation. So, let's make it illegal for anyone to be in a moving vehicle other than the driver!

New Jersey also makes it illegal for drivers to pump their own gas because someone, somewhere, *might* be too stupid to do it right, and cause an accident. Let's ignore the fact that someone that stupid, who is allowed behind the wheel of two tons of metal is already causing risk.

And don't forget the realm of cold medicines. Pseudoephidrine Hydrochloride (the active ingredient in many cold medicines, such as DayQuil, Sudafed, etc...) is now listed as a controlled substance by the FDA. That's why so many companies changed formulations to a different - and *less effective* drug. But it wasn't because it was found to be unsafe. It was because it *could* be used as a chemical precursor to make metamphetamines. So now, society is restricted from a better medicine, because of what *some* people *might* do. Of course, while we're at it, let's not forget that many illicit chemicals require water - so therefore, water should be made illegal too.

As I said earlier, risk is a part of life. And most things that are worthwhile are attainable only with a certain amount of risk. After all, how satisfied would you be if caches were ONLY allowed with a Terrain Rating of 1?

You can't regulate and make illegal everything that *might* cause an issue somewhere - you would end up making the entire universe illegal!

Now, some of you are saying that certain methods of hiding should be explicitly forbidden by the rules of this site, because someone *might* do something stupid. I'm sorry, but I disagree. If someone *might* do something stupid, than that someone should smarten up - otherwise they will learn their lesson the hard way, or society will be protected from them by natural selection. It may sound harsh, but that's what got the human species far enough for you to exist. And that's what got you far enough in life, that you're still alive to read this post. Anyone familiar with The Darwin Awards knows exactly what I mean.

And if you're talking about kids - then that responsibility falls to the parent. You don't teach a five year old that fire is dangerous by making sure he never even sees fire until he's eighteen. They will learn and be kept safe either because their parents spanked them when they tried to play with it (whereby, they learned indirectly to equate fire with pain, until they're older and can genuinely understand), or because they got themselves burned. Hiding them from reality serves no useful purpose. You cannot shield them from reality forever, and you are only keeping them from learning lessons that can be learned no other way.

For less critical lessons, it's up to the parents to teach their children. For example, I am completely against all the products to control, lock down, and limit what channels a TV can be turned to, or what web sites a computer is physically able to reach. Teach the child what is acceptable and allowable! Don't treat them like prison inmates!

Am I saying that it should be perfectly acceptable for caches to be placed in dangerous environments? No. (Although one could argue that hiking outdoors is intrinsically risky, and you better know what you're doing before you start navigating slick boulders) I'm not even saying that caches should *never* be put into dangerous environments. But if they are, the danger should be self-evident, thereby giving people the choice.

What I am saying is that a perfectly safe cache should not be prejudiced against because of what someone *might* do. And while I believe that it is everybody's right to comment on any given cache's appropriateness - I am strongly against *regulations* or laws curtailing caches for the reason of protecting people who choose not to exercise any intelligence and/or common sense.

January 4, 2006

Based on what I've seen people do to a pile of rocks in the woods, I shudder to think what they would do to an electrical box or anything located in an urban setting for that matter. You cannot regulate or legislate common sense, but you can at least try to minimize the damage caused the lack thereof.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Zoptrop

3.9k · January 4, 2006

I've found maybe 4 or 5 of the widely popular parking lot lamppost skirt hides. In each case there were exposed wires and connectors visible when I lifted the lamppost skirt. Though I was able to remove the cache in each case and I'm still around to write about it, it did cross my mind that someday someone is gonna get zapped.

I would support a change to the guidelines that would ban caches on live electrical equipment. Hey, it may have the added benefit of being the death knell of the Walmart lot micro.

Brian has raised an entirely real issue. The frist three lamppost micros which Sue and I found were placed in skirts of lampposts where wires and wire nut junctions (wire nuts joining two or more wires) were also located in the same space, and just inches from the cache container. Being an ex-electrical engineer, I too started to wonder if and when someone would end up touching the wrong thing, particularly if the insulation on a piece of wire were scraped or cut.

3.9k · January 4, 2006

The disclaimer is clear that danger and hazards are the responsibility of the cacher. Other than that, if the local codes allow exposed wires, your community should change them. If the wires under the lamp post skirt are exposed by poor installation practices, report it to to the city/property owner. These are hazards ti the community in general, not just cachers.

Also, if we say no electrical boxes, then would we also consider fake sewer pipes, and even sprinkler heads.

2.2k · January 4, 2006

From the Forum Guidelines:

Some things to keep in mind when posting:

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

Foul Language and obscene images will not be tolerated. This site is family friendly, and all posts and posters must respect the integrity of the site.

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

Let's keep it from being personal. "If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated."

Thank you.

Edited January 4, 2006 by Quiggle

January 4, 2006

I don't think that absolute prohibition is necessary. Some people use common sense and others don't, doh! That is one reason for online logs, people can log their opinion of the cache. If they feel strongly enough they can post a CNA log or if they lack testicular fortitude they can contact an approver privately about their concerns. Why prohibit the potential for creativity when it can be done safely?

For example, I have a cache that is a real electrical box that I purchased and gutted. I installed it with conduit leading into the ground to make it look real, and added stickers warning of high voltage and authorized personnel only - a previous cache was stollen, this one has not been :rolleyes: The cache is locked with a combination lock, which can only be opened by a series of questions that can be answered from objects in the park. The cache is attached to a brick wall in a park, and has permission from the park maintenance manager.

There are already means for bad caches to be archived, let's allow the good ones to live.

January 4, 2006

I don't think that absolute prohibition is necessary. Some people use common sense and others don't, doh! That is one reason for online logs, people can log their opinion of the cache. If they feel strongly enough they can post a CNA log or if they lack testicular fortitude they can contact an approver privately about their concerns. Why prohibit the potential for creativity when it can be done safely?

For example, I have a cache that is a real electrical box that I purchased and gutted. I installed it with conduit leading into the ground to make it look real, and added stickers warning of high voltage and authorized personnel only - a previous cache was stollen, this one has not been The cache is locked with a combination lock, which can only be opened by a series of questions that can be answered from objects in the park. The cache is attached to a brick wall in a park, and has permission from the park maintenance manager.

There are already means for bad caches to be archived, let's allow the good ones to live.

I agree 100%

It all boils down to common sence. If you don't feel like a cache is safe, post an SBA, bring it up to the reviewers, talk to the owner, etc.

On the flip side of that, if you're going to place a cache like that, make it obvious to a cacher, either through a note on the cache page, or the Geocaching logo on the box or such.

To those that are worried that their kids might learn from these caches that electrical boxes are toys, I say this: Take responsability for your kids. Teach them that electrical boxes aren't safe to open, and be the one responsable for showing a good example. In otherwords, don't hunt this style cache with the kids.

9.1k · January 4, 2006

I don't think that absolute prohibition is necessary.

I agree. The cache you described sounds fun, placed with permission in a park and everything. Good job -- I'd enjoy finding it! I've found quite a few fake {fill in the blank} caches like yours that were amusing, obvious and entertaining, from birdhouses to telephones.

The guideline I'd be in favor of is one which restricts placing a cache right on or near active utility equipment, like a transformer, substation fence, etc. It is based on the location and the circumstances, not the container in and of itself.

January 4, 2006

I noticed this mentioned up in the thread but my reason for not liking caches near / imitating electrical items is because of the determination some cachers have but they rarely admit to. How many times have you pulled up to an area that was once beautifully landscaped only to find mulch pushed aside, rocks moved, land scaping timebers awry, and limbs broken? All because a cache was in the vicinity. I've seen it numerous times. I don't agree with it but such caches exist. Relating this to the topic of electrical outlet caches, how far will a cacher go if they think a cache is an electrical box? Hopefully no one will be injured or worse while messing around a live outlet.

22k · January 4, 2006

Nowadays, our society has gotten to the point where people are pointing out anything and everything that could possibly cause harm, and demanding regulation and legislation to curtail actions which *might* conceivably lead to harm.

I believe most legislation is based on situations where people did get injured or killed. Attempting to prevent situations where more people could be effected, not simply coming up with 'maybies' to pass new law. (How long does it take to get a stop sign or stop light where one is needed? Seems like quite a while in my book)

Outlawing caches on hilltops is simply taking the argument to the extreme to try to make the normal issues seem just as silly.

It my opinion that if caches can be made to look like electrical boxes then people will look inside them to see if it is the cache. Doesn't mean those cachers are stupid, boxes are just acceptable places to look. Except in Iowa.

As said before, glad I live in Iowa.

9.1k · January 4, 2006

On the flip side of that, if you're going to place a cache like that, make it obvious to a cacher, either through a note on the cache page, or the Geocaching logo on the box or such.

I don't think people will want to do this, either because the surprise is given away on the cache page, or because the geo-logo or other visual clue at the cache site would make the find an overly obvious difficulty 1. And in the example of the cache my daughter hunted with me that was hidden inside a lamp post access panel next to wires, the cache was so tiny that there were no clues to say "yes, it's in here, you are supposed to be poking around in here."

To those that are worried that their kids might learn from these caches that electrical boxes are toys, I say this: Take responsability for your kids. Teach them that electrical boxes aren't safe to open, and be the one responsable for showing a good example. In otherwords, don't hunt this style cache with the kids.

Sometimes easier said than done, again because of people not doing what you've recommended above. Much of the time you have no idea exactly what you'll be encountering at the cache site, given the propensity to give minimal cache descriptions ("Nice fun hide at the mall. No hints"). When my daughter and I pull up in the parking lot, we don't know it will be a fake electric box next to two real ones. At that point you've driven three miles, missed a turn, goofed up your autorouting, waited through an incredibly long red light, and dodged mall security. It is hard to walk away sometimes. But more and more often, that is just what we do. Our "didn't bother looking" ratio was 50% on our last trip. And that's sad, IMHO. It makes it harder to get my daughter motivated to go out caching.

January 5, 2006

For example, I have a cache that is a real electrical box that I purchased and gutted. I installed it with conduit leading into the ground to make it look real, and added stickers warning of high voltage and authorized personnel only - a previous cache was stollen, this one has not been The cache is locked with a combination lock, which can only be opened by a series of questions that can be answered from objects in the park. The cache is attached to a brick wall in a park, and has permission from the park maintenance manager.

There are already means for bad caches to be archived, let's allow the good ones to live.

Sorry AB4N, but this style of hide is completely inapporpriate. People will find it, and then LATER be opening a live electircal junction box...

I can't believe this subject is even open for debate, as its a gross violation of best practices in industry, and an obvious safety issue. To quote my previous post:

"Let me qualify my statements by stating I am a trained engineer, and

routinely work with industrial electrical equipment, chemical

equipment, and other sources of power. I have had EXTENSIVE safety

training, and am familiar with OSHA and ASME safety guidelines, and

best-practices in industry. What follows is more than mere personal

opinion, and is the opinion of a qualified and trained professional."

"Other unsafe caches, are those either disguised as electrical

equipment, ON electrical equipment, or most importantly, promote

PROBING of electrical equipment. Electrical transformers, junction

boxes, electrical service boxes etc are generally hazardous areas.

Caches placed in close proximity to these areas promote the very

unsafe behavior of touching the equipment. Usually, caches in these

areas are themselves placed safely, but when that searching behavior

is brought elsewhere, it brings with it complacency towards very

real electrical hazards. There is an incorrect assumption that

poking, pulling, and prodding this equipment will not kill you."

I fully support Lep's position of

"The guideline I'd be in favor of is one which restricts placing a cache right on or near active utility equipment, like a transformer, substation fence, etc. It is based on the location and the circumstances, not the container in and of itself. "

GC.com should at least have a policy where blatently unsafe caches could be reported and archived.

January 5, 2006

I believe most legislation is based on situations where people did get injured or killed. Attempting to prevent situations where more people could be effected, not simply coming up with 'maybies' to pass new law. (How long does it take to get a stop sign or stop light where one is needed? Seems like quite a while in my book)

The problem is that there are *always* people who don't exercise intelligence and common-sense.

In 2004, in Singapore, a 39 year old guy discovered that his motorbike's fuel tank was leaking. He removed it from the bike, brought it to his 6th floor apartment, where he drained the gasoline into a bucket, and proceded to light a propane torch so he could solder the leak.

Unfortunately, some of the gasoline had spilled onto his hand, and that caught fire. He tried to extinguish the fire by plunging his hand into his toilet, but in the process, managed to ignite the fumes coming from the bucket full of gasoline. This engulfed the toilet in a ball of fire, and caused the *first* explosion.

Then, some of the burning gasoline spilled down a floor drain, into the sewer system, where it mixed with sewer gas and set off a huge underground explosion, which blew one manhole cover to pieces, and caused two others to pop open.

Now, would you outlaw soldering torches? Or motorbikes?

Then, in the same year, in Romania, we have a man whose wife bought him a condom that was too large. He had a brilliant idea, which was to superglue the condom to his member. Needless to say, he ended up going to a clinic when he couldn't get it off later that evening. He told a nurse, apparently, that he thought the condom could be used several times, and glued it on so that it could be re-used later.

So, how do you feel about having condoms or glue outlawed, because someone *did* manage to come to harm?

You see my point. Even sticking with things that *did* cause a problem is not a solution. Somewhere, you will find someone stupid enough to cause an issue with just about anything. You'll still end up making the entire universe illegal. It's no way to deal with the issue.

People have to learn to take care of themselves, rather than have the world regulated into a police state, making sure they can't get any boo boos.

20.7k · January 5, 2006

For example, I have a cache that is a real electrical box that I purchased and gutted. I installed it with conduit leading into the ground to make it look real, and added stickers warning of high voltage and authorized personnel only - a previous cache was stollen, this one has not been The cache is locked with a combination lock, which can only be opened by a series of questions that can be answered from objects in the park. The cache is attached to a brick wall in a park, and has permission from the park maintenance manager.

There are already means for bad caches to be archived, let's allow the good ones to live.

Sorry AB4N, but this style of hide is completely inapporpriate. People will find it, and then LATER be opening a live electircal junction box...

I don't buy that argument. If people find a cache in a tree, will they climb all trees looking for caches?

AB4N's cache is fine. I particularly like that they will need to know the combination to open it. As you know, most electrical boxes are either locked or require the power to be shut off before they are opened. Either way, safety is built into them.

The bottom line is if you think a cache is unsafe, do not log it.

January 5, 2006

...sigh...

There are two kinds of people in the world: those who THINK there are two kinds of people in the world, and those who don't.

If someone gets electrocuted because he/she is seeking a cache that looks like an electrical box and is located near a REAL electrical box - then the person who placed that cache is going to get sued. Big time. Probably successfully. Disclaimer or no disclaimer.

If you wish to take that risk by placing such caches, do so. It's only YOUR sum total of assets.

If you wish to poke your fingers into live (or not) things that look like electrical boxes, please advise your next of kin that they should not sue anyone and everyone remotely responsible.

I guess that's two kinds of people.

...sigh...

Edited January 5, 2006 by RockyRaab

January 5, 2006

[The bottom line is if you think a cache is unsafe, do not log it.

Huh? Your bottom line is messed up.

I'm for darn sure going to log something if I think that a cache is dangerous! What kind of a citizen would I be if I just walked away and did nothing?

2.7k · January 5, 2006

I recently found a cache in an "outdoor light" fitting in a forest shelter. The light was screwed to the wall, but there was clearly no electricity going to it, /a/ because there was no tube to contain the wires and /b/ because the hut clearly had no source of electricity. To get to the cache (which was just a log), you had to be about 6ft tall, open the glass cover, unscrew the bulb, and then the log was rolled up inside the bulb where the filament would go. Totally safe (kids can change light bulbs - they do in my house, anyway), and the cache listing even had a little "don't try this at home" disclaimer.

I guess my main point is that you and I know this; you and I can tell the different between a fake box containing a cache and a real box due to various clues - missing locks (though the one I found yesterday was locked - it opened another way), missing conduit (though the one I found yesterday had conduit coming up out of the ground), location where there's obviously no power. But Iwould wager that there are plenty of people who do not recognize these clues... How many kids, caching with parents or brothers or uncles, are going to realize that there's certain reasons why we feel safe checking boxes like this, and that in most cases the last they need to be doing is trying to open them?

Ah well. This is actually a pretty minor point in the grand scheme of things. I don't think we need a new guideline/rule/ban either. As stated, I just see a possible danger.

Electrician for 8 years. Electronics for lifetime.

One of the most common parts of the "art" of elictricians is hiding the wires and conduits. How many of us cacn see the wires going into our light switch boxes at home?

Oftentimes boxes are fed from behind and oftentimes service runs underground.

Best course of action for electrical box disguised caches, unless clearly marked as geocache (perhaps with symbol or obvious "circuit number") is to log a DNF and go home (alive).

I would say post an SBA, but only if you actually confirm the box IS the cache and it is not clear that it is not a live box.

January 5, 2006

Wow this is a good debate. Quiggle, thanks for keeping it clean.

Some of these examples like the condom and the superglue thing just don't work for me. There is no reason to outlaw condoms, and there is no reason to outlaw superglue. Maybe a good idea would be to outlaw supergluing a condom to (well you know).

I don't see the reason there is an outcry of don't take away my electrical cache hiding options. I also didn't call for a ban on anything, I just thought some of things should be looked at a little more closely. To quote myself from the OP "I think as more cachers push the limit, we have to curtail this enthuasiam somehow."

I think anything can be done properly. But I also think that the longer I have been caching the more I notice a "how can I make something harder to find or more real looking attitude." This alone is not a bad thing, but when mixing this ideology with electricity or any other really things that could get another cacher in serious trouble, I think the line is crossed.

Edited to add the quotes in the last paragraph since it was hard to read.

Edited January 5, 2006 by 5¢

January 5, 2006

Ignoring concerns about people getting hurt going into electrical equipment, as mentioned in a previous post the hider archived the cache because of concerns of seekers destroying property. In the cache, I linked to, the cover plate was removed and not replaced. I don’t know what rain would do in an electrical box, but it doesn’t sound like something I would want to find out by having to pay to have shorted out wires and circuits repaired.

Jackie

Edited January 5, 2006 by Geo Froggy

2.7k · January 5, 2006

i agree with the OP and have posted in other threads the same concern.

I believe this MUST go beyond electrical boxes though.

All cache placements should be closely scrutinized for their potential impact from seekers, bothe those who exercise good judgement adn those who might not.

Unfortunately, there is no practical way for this to be done except by the cache hiders themselves. And it is a very difficult consideration, especially when you try to think like "the lowest common denominator".

There are a lot of "creative" caches out there and I have a few cool ideas of my own (that are probably not new) for caches that would be 5 star. Many of these are not going to be found unless the seeker is willing to remove bolts and such. This kind of thing should clearly be out of bounds, but in the face of a very difficult micro hide, the possibilities come to mind. Only you, the seeker, decide when to quit.

We need to judge each hide on its own merits and instruct seekers to obey common sense limits on their searches. New guidelines banning yet another class of caches is both impractical and counter-productive to the sport.

If anyone Finds a cache that is in a potentially dangerous location or is not likely to be found without unacceptable behaviours, he/she should post find and SBA.

We must police our own or we will lose our sport.

January 5, 2006

The OP has a very valid point, but it's a subtle one.

I have an electrical outlet hide. In a very busy (and nice) public plaza, it's an outdoor outlet cover (not the outlet itself) held to a metal surface with rare earth magnets. The cover is a little spring-loaded door that lifts up, and if you lift it up you'll see the geocaching log. Not a danger, nor should it incite others to behave dangerously. If you open such a little cover and see an electric outlet, you should assume it's an electric outlet and look elsewhere.

Hiding the log *behind* an electric outlet or *in* a transformer box is just plain stupid. If I were caching and I ran across a cache hidden IN electrical equipment, or AS electrical equipment such that the equipment had to be DISASSEMBLED in order to retrieve the log, it would get an SBA from me (and other locals) right away. It probably wouldn't last the first wave of FTF maniacs. The most experienced cachers around here (norcal) serve as a sort of informal "second review board". They know the reviewers and if there are issues with a new cache they get dealt with pronto.

If that's not how it works in your area, then you have a problem with your local community. I've seen new geocachers pop up, hide something stupid, get smacked down by their more experienced peers and depart the sport, flaming the local reviewer on their way out. They are not missed. We want to search for quality hides, not stupid ones. I recommend you cultivate your local reviewers and ensure the same for yourselves.

Simply put, a geocache should be both responsibly hidden and reasonably findable.

And also, I'm not much of a fan of transformer hides. Even though they're usually harmless keyholders under a lip, they're not very scenic or interesting. What posseses people?

2.7k · January 5, 2006

<snip> What posseses people?

Numb3rs

January 5, 2006

If someone gets electrocuted because he/she is seeking a cache that looks like an electrical box and is located near a REAL electrical box - then the person who placed that cache is going to get sued. Big time. Probably successfully. Disclaimer or no disclaimer.

If you wish to take that risk by placing such caches, do so. It's only YOUR sum total of assets.

I would actually add what I feel to be the most practical argument against these sorts of hides. The fact that it would likely not just be the hider, but also Groundspeak, named on the resulting, almost guaranteed win of a lawsuit. Remember, McDonald's paid $40,000,000 for the revelation that coffee is hot...

Rich;)

January 5, 2006

Some of these examples like the condom and the superglue thing just don't work for me. There is no reason to outlaw condoms, and there is no reason to outlaw superglue. Maybe a good idea would be to outlaw supergluing a condom to (well you know).

Your side of the analogy wasn't about actually hiding a cache in a dangerous spot. It was about a "what if" when the cachers are elsewhere.

This side of the analogy says that it isn't about actually gluing a condom on, it's saying that there's an inherent problem with either condoms or glue (or perhaps just both being sold in the same store) because someone *might* do something stupid with them.

If they do, they'll suffer the consequences. But it is not necessary, nor is it right to limit everyone else with regulations designed to only protect people without a whit of common sense.

I think anything can be done properly. But I also think that the longer I have been caching the more I notice a "how can I make something harder to find or more real looking attitude." This alone is not a bad thing, but when mixing this ideology with electricity or any other really things that could get another cacher in serious trouble, I think the line is crossed.

That's just it. Nobody is arguing that it's not a great idea to mix caches with electricity. What people are arguing is the idea that a PERFECTLY SAFE cache should not be created because there are *some* people who don't have enough sense to be smart when they are *somewhere else*.

10.1k · January 5, 2006

One of the greatest laughs that I've had was while hiking the Appalachian Trail, near High Point, New Jersey. There was a dead tree near the trail, with an electrical outlet box in it. No one could ever mistake it for a real electricl outlet. (Okay, I should never assume.) Nearest actual source of electricity, probably an quarter of a mile. I think it was a hoot! And, I'm contemplating placing one in the middle of the woods somewhere. The Least Common Denominator Theory is rather frightening. Society is not here to protect everyone from every possible source of danger. Maybe I'll have to change my electrical outlet cache concept to a hinged faucet on a dead tree? Something equally as outrageous, but not possibly thought of as dangerous? A sad commentary on modern society.

I've seen some badly conceived caches in my day. That includes one placed on an electric transmission station. I'll ignore the one placed on the abandoned trestle over the river. It's rated 5*, and anyone seeing the trestle should undersatnd the dangers involved. (I'm obviously assuming too much.)

Then again, I went searching for a cache near a strip mall. The obvious hiding place was the guard rail. (For us, the GPS read halfway between the guard rail and the building.) The cache was definitely not in the guard rail. So, we searched further afield. The fire hydrant. The electrical box at the rear of the building. (There was a strange action figure perched upon that!) The little plastic box set into the wall. I was sure that that's where the cache was located! The joke was on me! The cache was not placed until two days after it was approved. It was in the guard rail, after all! Well, it was there two days later...

January 5, 2006

I would actually add what I feel to be the most practical argument against these sorts of hides. The fact that it would likely not just be the hider, but also Groundspeak, named on the resulting, almost guaranteed win of a lawsuit. Remember, McDonald's paid $40,000,000 for the revelation that coffee is hot...

Rich;)

If you wanted to keep people from doing things that *might* get someone sued, no one would ever get out of bed. Ever. And even then, someone would try suing Sleepy's for selling such comfortable beds that lead to bed sores.

p.s. As a side note, the McDonald's lawsuit you're referring to was actually a lot more substantial than that. That "sued because their coffee is hot" line is just the oversimplified hype that ended up being circulated by everyone.

22k · January 5, 2006

Now, would you outlaw soldering torches? Or motorbikes?

Once again, exetreme cases of somebody being an idiot does not make opening live electrical boxes okay.

January 5, 2006

Nevermind

Edited January 5, 2006 by 5¢

January 5, 2006

I don’t understand why people are being called stupid for thinking a cache is in an electrical box. Hiders are hiding caches in boxes made to look just like live electrical boxes, and if the cacher has been on this forum or found an electrical box cache then I expect that is where he will look if the coords take him close to it. I really don’t think most people would have ever thought to look in such places if it weren’t for the descriptions of this type of hide on this board, I don’t see where stupidity comes into it.

Jackie

January 5, 2006

Once again, exetreme cases of somebody being an idiot does not make opening live electrical boxes okay.

As I said before:

----------------------------

Nobody is arguing that it's not a great idea to mix caches with electricity. What people are arguing is the idea that a PERFECTLY SAFE cache should not be created because there are *some* people who don't have enough sense to be smart when they are *somewhere else*.

----------------------------

January 5, 2006

People can't be protected from their own stupidity. If there is a fake electrical installation with no conduit running to it from any possible source, then it might be the cache. I'm not talking about stuff mounted on walls --- I'm talking about ones that are mounted on 1/4" thick I-beams, on trees, or in other locations where there absolutely couldn't be any hidden conduit. If there's 'conduit' running to it, it's locked, and the cache description included a puzzle or whatever for the combination and the combination works, it might be the cache. That's just commong sense. Those types of hides really aren't that dangerous.

On the other hand, I've seen caches hidden very close to bare conductors (including in light poles). I don't know if the conductors are live or not. Common sense would tell you not to get near and, vice versa, not to hide anything near. Some finders might assume that since the hider placed the cache there, it must be dead. This seems a reasonable assumption. But I wouldn't assume it and wouldn't get near until I got out my tic tracer. But is that common sense or specialized experience?

22k · January 5, 2006

Once again, exetreme cases of somebody being an idiot does not make opening live electrical boxes okay.

As I said before:

----------------------------

Nobody is arguing that it's not a great idea to mix caches with electricity. What people are arguing is the idea that a PERFECTLY SAFE cache should not be created because there are *some* people who don't have enough sense to be smart when they are *somewhere else*.

----------------------------

But we are not talking about perfectly safe caches, we are talking about open something thinking it could be the cache, but it's not.

and no I don't think a proximity rule is the answer. (for one it wouldn't work well enough)

no electrical caches, no opening electrical boxes. That's my vote. I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with me.

Edited January 5, 2006 by BlueDeuce

January 5, 2006

Can someone tell me what the draw is to hiding the fake electric box? It is nothing new. If it is not hidden next to live electrical equipment, then it sticks out like a soar thumb and is a 1 star difficulty. So what is the draw? Why are people here defending this cache style so protective of this hiding style if it is an easy find and has no originality?

I keep hearing that you cannot protect stupid people, but that does not address the issue that you are telling people it is ok to open electric boxes because you think you have the knowledge to know it is not real.

22k · January 5, 2006

Edit everything out except

that does not address the issue that you are telling people it is ok to open electric boxes because you think you have the knowledge to know it is not real.

otherwise they'll go off on a tangent about hiding style[

Edited January 5, 2006 by BlueDeuce

1.3k · January 5, 2006

I have found (1) electrical box cache to date. It was attached with magnets to a light pole. It was covered with a blank plate and the log book was inside.You access it from the open back side when you remove it from the pole. A light tug was all it took to remove this cache from the light pole. If it hadn't come free (because it was real) I certainly wouldn't have attempted to unscrew the cover and poke around inside of it in the hope that it may have been the cache.

As others have said, you can't legislate common sense.

Off topic, I have an idea about making a cache out of an old hornets nest, but I can't place it until I find an active nest to place it near... :rolleyes:

Edit:Addedspacesbetweenafewwords.

Edited January 5, 2006 by Trinity's Crew

January 5, 2006

The risk is, as stated before, if people get used to seeing these sorts of hides, they're going to be more likely to check electrical boxes and like objects while looking for other caches. Someone's eventually going to get zapped. I mean, think about it. How many possibly-deadly objects should we really be making into cache containers?

By that logic, because I've hidden a cache that looks like an alligator, sooner or later people are going to start assuming that a REAL alligator might be a cache. Sure, it seems silly, but it's the same argument.

Nonsens. The electrical box cache IS an electrical box (at least the one I've found is), so it kinda looks EXACTLY like an electrical box, just isn't live. I'm willing to bet your alligator cache isn't hidden inside of a real (but not active) alligator, is it?

22k · January 5, 2006

I have an idea about making a cache out of an old hornets nest,

Well, I wouldn't be able to even search the area for a cache like that. As soon as I saw it I'd be gone! I don't stick around to see if they are live or not.

I don't play with electricity or hornets. But that's just me.

Okay done.

Edit: missing negative.

Edited January 5, 2006 by BlueDeuce

January 5, 2006

After some thinking on my own and some of the things I have read in the forums, I have gotten to this point. I think a lot of people are pushing the limits. Caches hidden as electrical outlets etc. are the things I am speaking of. I notice these edge pushing things are becoming a norm. I don't think they are proper. I feel approvers should ask the question when reviewing caches to have the owner explain the hide or provide a picture. Some hides push the limits by being a pine cone etc, and that is one thing. But as a whole, I am noticing (and hearing) of people putting things out that could be dangerous to cachers trying to find the hide.

I have found the fake electric box and don't think it is a good idea because when someone feels they have to open something electrical because it is the only place that makes sense for the cache to be, they are setting themself up for the biggest shock of their life. (no pun intended)

I think as more cachers push the limit, we have to curtail this enthuasiam somehow.

I wont do it.................................. :rolleyes:

January 5, 2006

After some thinking on my own and some of the things I have read in the forums, I have gotten to this point. I think a lot of people are pushing the limits. Caches hidden as electrical outlets etc. are the things I am speaking of. I notice these edge pushing things are becoming a norm. I don't think they are proper. I feel approvers should ask the question when reviewing caches to have the owner explain the hide or provide a picture. Some hides push the limits by being a pine cone etc, and that is one thing. But as a whole, I am noticing (and hearing) of people putting things out that could be dangerous to cachers trying to find the hide.

I have found the fake electric box and don't think it is a good idea because when someone feels they have to open something electrical because it is the only place that makes sense for the cache to be, they are setting themself up for the biggest shock of their life. (no pun intended)

I think as more cachers push the limit, we have to curtail this enthuasiam somehow.

Oh yeah I will :rolleyes:

This whole post is worth about 5 cents.

Where Does It Stop?

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