Where Does It Stop?

[+5¢]

After some thinking on my own and some of the things I have read in the forums, I have gotten to this point. I think a lot of people are pushing the limits. Caches hidden as electrical outlets etc. are the things I am speaking of. I notice these edge pushing things are becoming a norm. I don't think they are proper. I feel approvers should ask the question when reviewing caches to have the owner explain the hide or provide a picture. Some hides push the limits by being a pine cone etc, and that is one thing. But as a whole, I am noticing (and hearing) of people putting things out that could be dangerous to cachers trying to find the hide.

 

I have found the fake electric box and don't think it is a good idea because when someone feels they have to open something electrical because it is the only place that makes sense for the cache to be, they are setting themself up for the biggest shock of their life. (no pun intended)

 

I think as more cachers push the limit, we have to curtail this enthuasiam somehow.

[+BlueDeuce]

I was under the impression that electrical box type caches were now outside guidlines.

[CoyoteRed]

I was under the impression that electrical box type caches were now outside guidlines.

Really? Are the present ones grandfathered or should I report at least one that I know of?

[+The Leprechauns]

As I stated in the now-closed thread about the WalMart cache, please point me to the specific passage in the Cache Listing Guidelines which prohibits a cache hidden in an electric box, on a transformer, etc. Again, as stated in the other thread, I am in favor of adding "utility equipment" to the list of off-limits locations. But I don't see it there right now.

[+The Leprechauns]

I feel approvers should ask the question when reviewing caches to have the owner explain the hide or provide a picture.

That is not how the process works right now. Noting all the forum threads about "why is it taking so long to list my cache" and "my reviewer is asking too many questions," what do you think the impact of your proposed procedure change would be on (1) flaming of reviewers via e-mail and in the forums, and (2) delays in the cache publication timeline?

 

You seem to be advocating that the burden for ensuring common sense cache placements and guideline compliance ought to be shifted even further to the volunteer cache reviewers, and away from the cache owners and the community. I am not sure that's a good idea.

[+BlueDeuce]

http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=112407

 

Electrical Equipment Caches, not allowed

IowaAdmin

Posted: Oct 27 2005, 06:48 PM

 

I recently turned down a new geocache listing because the cache was on or near electrical equipment. That owner then wrote to me to tell me about 4 other similar geocaches that were approved. So I looked at each listing and archived each of them. This policy is endorsed by Groundspeak and most approvers. It's unsafe to make a geocache look like part of electrical equipment, whether or not the nearby equipment is actually "live." It may encourage some geocachers -- including children -- to open "live" equipment. So even though you can buy these types of containers on eBay sites, please don't submit them for approval. They are simply not a good idea and may lead to tragic consequences in the future

[+The Leprechauns]

That is a local rule followed in Iowa. If IowaAdmin is able to enforce it, good for him. But it's not in the listing guidelines.

[+BlueDeuce]

Ok, it was just my impression.

[tonyaltn]

I did see one of these types of containers that look like an outside outlet and thought about how funny it would be to put one next to a tree in the middle of the woods, I didnt realize this included the "fake" stuff and thought it was just for real electrical boxes & such wich I thought made sense, but after reading the starting post I can understand how this could cause problems and become unsafe. Even though I love my idea for a funny "electrcal tree" , I agree that they shouldnt be allowed.

 

What about a phone? Could a tree in the woods have a telephone? Camo of course.

[+GeoCrickets]

However it does say "This policy is endorsed by Groundspeak and most approvers".

 

So I take it as a guide line..

[+Team Perks]

Every fake electrical box/outlet/whatever cache I've ever seen has been quite obvious that it was fake. I even hid one of those myself--again, in such a manner that there's no doubt it's the cache, and in a location where nobody would suspect the cacher of tampering with stuff. How is that a risk?

[+Pasha]

Coincidentally, I found one of these today. Extremely imaginative, a lot of work on the hider's part, but it was 5' from a no-fooling 100kW generator and junction box. If my kids were with me, there's no way I would've checked that innocuous looking outlet box. Took a lot of gumption for me to check it at all.

 

I can see the point of these being few and far between. The risk is, as stated before, if people get used to seeing these sorts of hides, they're going to be more likely to check electrical boxes and like objects while looking for other caches. Someone's eventually going to get zapped. I mean, think about it. How many possibly-deadly objects should we really be making into cache containers?

[+badlands]

Where do you draw the line? Do you stop putting micro's in the mouth's of plastic snakes because the plastic snakes will cause people to start picking up poisonous snakes?

 

I'm not advocating either position, just asking the question.

[+webscouter.]

After some thinking on my own and some of the things I have read in the forums, I have gotten to this point. I think a lot of people are pushing the limits. Caches hidden as electrical outlets etc. are the things I am speaking of. I notice these edge pushing things are becoming a norm. I don't think they are proper. I feel approvers should ask the question when reviewing caches to have the owner explain the hide or provide a picture. Some hides push the limits by being a pine cone etc, and that is one thing. But as a whole, I am noticing (and hearing) of people putting things out that could be dangerous to cachers trying to find the hide.

 

I have found the fake electric box and don't think it is a good idea because when someone feels they have to open something electrical because it is the only place that makes sense for the cache to be, they are setting themself up for the biggest shock of their life. (no pun intended)

 

I think as more cachers push the limit, we have to curtail this enthuasiam somehow.

The problem with requiring pictures is that they can be seen at http://www.geocaching.com/seek/gallery.aspx even if the cache isn't approved.

[+Team Perks]

The risk is, as stated before, if people get used to seeing these sorts of hides, they're going to be more likely to check electrical boxes and like objects while looking for other caches.  Someone's eventually going to get zapped.  I mean, think about it.  How many possibly-deadly objects should we really be making into cache containers?

By that logic, because I've hidden a cache that looks like an alligator, sooner or later people are going to start assuming that a REAL alligator might be a cache. Sure, it seems silly, but it's the same argument.

 

It's easy to say that "sooner or later somebody's gonna get zapped," but in reality, however, I have yet to see or hear of a single example where this has happened. And in more than 2700 finds, I can't recall a single cache hide where I felt endangered specifically by the method of concealment.

 

On the other hand, I can list dozens upon dozens of caches where the LOCATION of the cache has caused me enough concern that I quit searching (or didn't even start searching), regardless of what the cache might have looked like. As far as I'm concerned, that's really where the volunteer reviewers should continue to focus their efforts.

 

I would hope that the overwhelming majority of cachers are capable of using their own common sense and deciding when they don't feel comfortable searching for a particular type of hide. You can never account for the lowest common denominator; someone will invariably find a way to prove themselves dumber than you ever thought they could be. (As Einstein said, the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.)

 

(I wish the search function was working. The "fake electrical box" example was hashed over in the not-too-distant past.)

Edited January 2, 2006 by Team Perks

[+CamoCacher]

I did see one of these types of containers that look like an outside outlet and thought about how funny it would be to put one next to a tree in the middle of the woods, I didnt realize this included the "fake" stuff and thought it was just for real electrical boxes & such wich I thought made sense, but after reading the starting post I can understand how this could cause problems and become unsafe. Even though I love my idea for a funny "electrcal tree" , I agree that they shouldnt be allowed.

 

What about a phone? Could a tree in the woods have a telephone? Camo of course.

We have an electrical outlet up here in a tree, defiantly not dangerous but very creative and unique.

[+Pasha]

On the other hand, I can list dozens upon dozens of caches where the LOCATION of the cache has caused me enough concern that I quit searching (or didn't even start searching), regardless of what the cache might have looked like.  As far as I'm concerned, that's really where the volunteer reviewers should continue to focus their efforts.

I do agree that the location is the key in most cases. I also believe there's an element of danger here that can be alleviated very simply. I make no comment as to where to draw the line; this particular thing has a potential for harm.

 

Some of my favorite hides can fit in this category. I don't really even think they should be "banned." I just see a danger. I don't know how anyone can think that training people that they can find caches in electrical boxes, outlets, transformers, whatever, is a good thing. Cachers are a generally common-sensical bunch and I imagine that's why we've never heard of a specific problem. That's no guarantee.

[+sTeamTraen]

What Team Perks said, redoubled in spades.

 

I recently found a cache in an "outdoor light" fitting in a forest shelter. The light was screwed to the wall, but there was clearly no electricity going to it, /a/ because there was no tube to contain the wires and /b/ because the hut clearly had no source of electricity. To get to the cache (which was just a log), you had to be about 6ft tall, open the glass cover, unscrew the bulb, and then the log was rolled up inside the bulb where the filament would go. Totally safe (kids can change light bulbs - they do in my house, anyway), and the cache listing even had a little "don't try this at home" disclaimer.

 

A real electric company box will have tubes coming and going, a lock, a seal, and goodness knows what else. A fake one - provided that it's clear to the non-muggle what's going on - should not pose a problem. Of course, nobody should think of placing in a cache inside a real live box which happens to be unlocked - but if I found one of those, I'd call the electric company.

[+SparksWG3K]

A real electric company box will have tubes coming and going, a lock, a seal, and goodness knows what else. A fake one - provided that it's clear to the non-muggle what's going on - should not pose a problem. Of course, nobody should think of placing in a cache inside a real live box which happens to be unlocked - but if I found one of those, I'd call the electric company.

Yeah, there really isn't anyway that you can gain access to an electrical panel that is in the public domain without damaging a locking mechanism or turning the power off to the panel before the panel door can be opened.

 

The electrical panels that I've found didn't have any conduit running to it and was obviously not an in-service panel (after looking at it for a few minutes).

[+Cpt.Blackbeard]

 

What about a phone? Could a tree in the woods have a telephone? Camo of course.

Ahh, the fabled tree phone returns. When I was a young boy about thirty years ago my Dad used to coon hunt, and it was a standing joke in the family that if we ever needed to reach him we could call his tree phone.

Of course this was years before cell phones which made the thought of being able to call him in the woods even funnier.

[+Metaphor]

What about a phone? Could a tree in the woods have a telephone? Camo of course.

 

 

GCMAEB

[+The Leprechauns]

I've done the "fake phone in the woods" cache. I've done the "fake electric box in the woods" cache. They were FUN!

 

If there is to be a new guideline, it should not focus on the container, per se, but rather on the location where it's used. Middle of nowhere = OK. Right next to an active electric box = maybe not OK, depending on your opinion (as we're seeing, opinions vary).

[+Pasha]

I recently found a cache in an "outdoor light" fitting in a forest shelter.  The light was screwed to the wall, but there was clearly no electricity going to it, /a/ because there was no tube to contain the wires and /b/ because the hut clearly had no source of electricity.  To get to the cache (which was just a log), you had to be about 6ft tall, open the glass cover, unscrew the bulb, and then the log was rolled up inside the bulb where the filament would go.  Totally safe (kids can change light bulbs - they do in my house, anyway), and the cache listing even had a little "don't try this at home" disclaimer.

I guess my main point is that you and I know this; you and I can tell the different between a fake box containing a cache and a real box due to various clues - missing locks (though the one I found yesterday was locked - it opened another way), missing conduit (though the one I found yesterday had conduit coming up out of the ground), location where there's obviously no power. But Iwould wager that there are plenty of people who do not recognize these clues... How many kids, caching with parents or brothers or uncles, are going to realize that there's certain reasons why we feel safe checking boxes like this, and that in most cases the last they need to be doing is trying to open them?

 

Ah well. This is actually a pretty minor point in the grand scheme of things. I don't think we need a new guideline/rule/ban either. As stated, I just see a possible danger.

[+Zzyzx Road]

I suppose there is also the other point of view...if it IS in a muggle-y area, and it DOES look authentic, when the service personnel from the local companies come around and see another box, will they check it for some reason and report/remove/or otherwise "muggle" the cache?

[+sbell111]

... (I wish the search function was working. The "fake electrical box" example was hashed over in the not-too-distant past.)

link

[+Team GPSaxophone]

After some thinking on my own and some of the things I have read in the forums, I have gotten to this point. I think a lot of people are pushing the limits. Caches hidden as electrical outlets etc. are the things I am speaking of. I notice these edge pushing things are becoming a norm. I don't think they are proper. I feel approvers should ask the question when reviewing caches to have the owner explain the hide or provide a picture. Some hides push the limits by being a pine cone etc, and that is one thing. But as a whole, I am noticing (and hearing) of people putting things out that could be dangerous to cachers trying to find the hide.

 

I have found the fake electric box and don't think it is a good idea because when someone feels they have to open something electrical because it is the only place that makes sense for the cache to be, they are setting themself up for the biggest shock of their life. (no pun intended)

 

I think as more cachers push the limit, we have to curtail this enthuasiam somehow.

Electrical boxes are nothing new. I found one 3 years ago! It remains my favorite container 700 finds later.

[darwinmay]

I found a cache on the underside of an electrical box the other day. I was prepared to DNF it in case it was inside, but it happened to be on the inside of one of the legs.

[+ZingerHead]

/Zingerhead steps onto soapbox.....

 

I disagree with the "alligator" analogy - ANYBODY can take one look at an alligator and realize that it should not be messed with. Sharp teeth, looks strong, and it can obviously move. Electricity is invisible - you CANNOT tell, just by looking, whether something is live or not. And if it is live, you can be killed just as surely as if you went up to that alligator and stuck your arm in its mouth.

 

With so many other places to hide a geocache, what is the point of tempting fate by hiding them in electrical equipment.

 

And as far as electrical equipment with no conduit attached is concerned - what if the conduit is fed through the wall? It would terminate inside the equipment, and you would not see any external indication that the guts were live. YOU CANNOT SEE ELECTRICITY.

 

And don't think you have to come in direct contact with electricity to get zapped. Arc Flash is a very real hazard. The amount of energy available at an electrical outlet varies, but it's almost always enough to generate a very hot flash. If you are standing within a few inches of that flash, you will get burned. How burned depends on the available energy, but let's say its a pad mounted transformer - you would probably have most of the skin facing the fault burned clean off your body. And you would have never touched a live wire.

 

Just don't screw with it. You CAN'T tell, you DON'T know, and it CAN kill you.

 

I've witnessed short circuit testing of electrical equipment. Trust me, they conduct these tests behind bulletproof glass for a reason. Look at it this way - if you were standing in front of an electrical generator, would you shove your hand into that spinning mechanism? Of course not, because it would shred your arm. Well, guess what? That mechanical energy (that you can SEE by the way) is converted into electricity by the generator. So by sticking your hand into a live electrical circuit, you are essentially doing the same thing as sticking your hand into that generator.

 

Please, don't hide caches in electrical equipment. It's just a bad idea.

 

What an Arc Flash looks like.....

 

/steps off soapbox

Edited January 3, 2006 by ZingerHead

[+Team Perks]

I don't think anyone would argue that it should be OK to hide caches in electrical equipment. I'm pretty sure we can all agree it's a stupid idea to do that.

 

As I see it, though, caches hidden IN electrical equipment and caches hidden to RESEMBLE electrical equipment are two entirely separate beasts.

 

Caches that look like electrical equipment pose no direct risks. They aren't electrical, they can't arc, and you can't get shocked by touching them, licking them, peeing on them, or whatever.

 

As I stated above, the point when such a cache would become a risk depends entirely on WHERE the cache owner decides to put it. A cache hidden in or on REAL electrical equipment is a risk no matter what the cache looks like.

Edited January 3, 2006 by Team Perks

[+eigengott]

please point me to the specific passage in the Cache Listing Guidelines which prohibits a cache hidden in an electric box, on a transformer, etc.

Also, clearly label your physical containers on the outside with appropriate information to reduce the risk of your cache being perceived as a danger to those that are unaware of our sport.

[+Lil Devil]

I found two caches that were in the base of streetlight poles. Not in the skirt, but inside the pole itself. In one case the access panel was missing, in the other the access panel had only one of its two screws in place and you had to rotate it up and away. You then had to reach in among the live wires to grab a magnetic micro. I eyeballed them, walked away, and logged a SBA on both. Most of those streetlights run at 480 volts, which will easily kill if any of those wires are damaged. Sorry, but I'm not taking that kind of risk for a smiley

 

Edit to add the really disturbing part was in the log of a previous finder which said something along the lines of "my hand was too big so I had my 12 year old daughter grab the cache"

Edited January 3, 2006 by Lil Devil

[+Klemmer]

Maybe I'm missing something in this whole thread:

PRIVATE PROPERTY

Last I saw, if the cache was on private property, consent of the property owner is required. Right? As soon (or if) an Admin is advised of that, archive time, unless the cache placer has made it clear there is permission of the owner. An owner would (should) think very carefully about a fake electrical box......

 

That SHOULD disqualify the electrical boxes on the back of the Wallmart, etc.

 

Such caches on PUBLIC property are little stickier matter, and the thread contributors above have a pretty reasonable handle on that issue.

Edited January 3, 2006 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

[+dkwolf]

As I see it, though, caches hidden IN electrical equipment and caches hidden to RESEMBLE electrical equipment are two entirely separate beasts.

 

Caches that look like electrical equipment pose no direct risks.  They aren't electrical, they can't arc, and you can't get shocked by touching them, licking them, peeing on them, or whatever.

By this logic, a cache in a large ammo can and painted with the fallout symbol and the words "explosive" and "nuclear" should be okay, too. After all, they're not dangerous, they're just a cache. Same goes for electrical box caches. Either it looks real enough that it could pass for actual equipment, and thus creates the hazard of people trying to open ACTUAL LIVE electrical equipment to look for a cache, or it's obviously fake enough that anyone with any electrical/contracting background (there's more of us out there than you might think) would realize it's a fake and check it out...cache go bye-bye.

 

And the problem isn't necesarily (sp?) the caches that look like electrical equipment... Think about how times you, or someone looking for one of your caches, has been looking in completely the wrong spot. Not a big problem when you're 15 feet away from a micro in a city park, but when you're looking for an electrical box cache, that increases the odds of opening a real, LIVE box. BAD, BAD IDEA. I'm glad I live in Iowa, where these aren't allowed.

 

And consider this.... a muggle driving by sees a strange person with a small electronic device in their hand, maybe a backpack, maybe several people, tampering with what appears to be electrical service equipment and placing a small magnetic container inside, all while trying to act stealthy. Do you really want to add to the "explaining geocaching to the cops" thread?

Edited January 3, 2006 by dkwolf

[+sTeamTraen]

How many kids, caching with parents or brothers or uncles, are going to realize that there's certain reasons why we feel safe checking boxes like this, and that in most cases the last they need to be doing is trying to open them?

On that basis, one should not hide a cache of any sort within GPS error range of any real electrical equipment, as someone might decide to look inside the electrical equipment for the cache.

 

However, if the cache is in a fake electrical item, and presumably not advertised as such, then the likely consequences are:

/a/ "I think that's live - I won't touch it - DNF" (that's the owner's problem)

/b/ "That electrical item looks fake - I'll see if it's locked, and/or there's any wiring obviously running into it - if not, I'll open it carefully"

 

In other words, the fake electric box doesn't change the hazard situation at all. The only way it might, would be if a big percentage of caches were hidden this way. But if only 1 in 100 are, and the hider doesn't do something stupid like putting a fake box in the middle of 37 lives ones (aka "Russian Roulette"), then I don't think there's a problem with fake electrical items per se.

 

Consider this analogy:

- Cache is hidden in a piece of drain pipe (you probably don't know this from the listing)

- You see a piece of drain pipe near the coordinates

- It contains a snake and you get bitten

 

In this case, I don't think that the hider's choice of a piece of drain pipe for the cache is a problem (unless it was placed near dozens of other such pieces in an area where snakes are known to be common).

[+The Leprechauns]

I found two caches that were in the base of streetlight poles. Not in the skirt, but inside the pole itself. In one case the access panel was missing, in the other the access panel had only one of its two screws in place and you had to rotate it up and away. You then had to reach in among the live wires to grab a magnetic micro. I eyeballed them, walked away, and logged a SBA on both. Most of those streetlights run at 480 volts, which will easily kill if any of those wires are damaged. Sorry, but I'm not taking that kind of risk for a smiley

 

Edit to add the really disturbing part was in the log of a previous finder which said something along the lines of "my hand was too big so I had my 12 year old daughter grab the cache"

I have found one cache like that as well. It took us awhile, because I said to myself, "no, it can't be IN there." That is where my 11 year old daughter thought it was, and she was correct. I handled the eventual cache retrieval.

 

As a result of this thread, I am reconsidering my decision at the time not to log an SBA on this cache.

[+sTeamTraen]

By this logic, a cache in a large ammo can and painted with the fallout symbol and the words "explosive" and "nuclear" should be okay, too. After all, they're not dangerous, they're just a cache.

I don't think the logic is the same here. If you write "nuclear" on a container, it creates fear among muggles. If you put something that looks like a nice safe electrical distribution box, they will (we hope) ignore it.

[+briansnat]

I've found maybe 4 or 5 of the widely popular parking lot lamppost skirt hides. In each case there were exposed wires and connectors visible when I lifted the lamppost skirt. Though I was able to remove the cache in each case and I'm still around to write about it, it did cross my mind that someday someone is gonna get zapped.

 

I would support a change to the guidelines that would ban caches on live electrical equipment. Hey, it may have the added benefit of being the death knell of the Walmart lot micro.

[+Geo Froggy]

I think when people start to consider electrical outlet hides the norm you end up with problems such as this one.

Light pole

 

Jackie

[+huggy_d1]

I think when people start to consider electrical outlet hides the norm you end up with problems such as this one.

Light pole

 

Jackie

I think reading a cache page for 'fairly visible location' and disassembling a light pole despite the written word is pushing it over the top.

 

FYI, the cache was placed 20 feet up on the pole visible from 20 feet or more away. I know, I placed it there.

[+The Blind Acorn]

I think when people start to consider electrical outlet hides the norm you end up with problems such as this one.

Light pole

 

Jackie

You should post about something you actually found Froggy. It was not in the pole and infact nowhere near the opening. The cache was disabled because the destruction of property.

 

I guess from now on I'll just hide the caches out in the middle of an open field in plain view that way every is safe from their own stupidity.

 

Edited January 3, 2006 by The Blind Acorn

[+Geo Froggy]

I think when people start to consider electrical outlet hides the norm you end up with problems such as this one.

Light pole

 

Jackie

You should post about something you actually found Froggy. It was not in the pole and infact nowhere near the opening. The cache was disabled because the destruction of property.

 

I guess from now on I'll just hide the caches out in the middle of an open field in plain view that way every is safe from their own stupidity.

 

TBA, I’m so sorry if my post offended you. My point was that folks were taking things apart looking for hides when they shouldn’t. I was in no way criticizing your hide, in fact I really wanted to go back to look for it as it sounded neat. From the logs I figured it was up high, and I just stopped off to see what sort of special equipment would be needed for the next time I was in Roanoke, and saw the removed cover. I posted, on the cache page, about the cover being removed thinking that it would prevent people from looking for it there. Again, I’m sorry if you misunderstood, and that you archived it.

 

Jackie

[+Renegade Knight]

...I guess from now on I'll just hide the caches out in the middle of an open field in plain view that way every is safe from their own stupidity....

Allowing for the general stupidity of cache seekers is one of the issues of being a cache owner. It doesn't take more than one moron to ruin a cache, and anger a land manager.

 

Sorry to see your cache go like that. It happened to me as well on a cache and it was an eye opener.

[+Miragee]

...I guess from now on I'll just hide the caches out in the middle of an open field in plain view that way every is safe from their own stupidity....

Allowing for the general stupidity of cache seekers is one of the issues of being a cache owner. It doesn't take more than one moron to ruin a cache, and anger a land manager. . . .

Yup . . .

[+The Blind Acorn]

...I guess from now on I'll just hide the caches out in the middle of an open field in plain view that way every is safe from their own stupidity....

Allowing for the general stupidity of cache seekers is one of the issues of being a cache owner. It doesn't take more than one moron to ruin a cache, and anger a land manager.

 

Sorry to see your cache go like that. It happened to me as well on a cache and it was an eye opener.

I am very careful and diligent about where I place my caches. I take into account our local cachers (there are many) who cache with small children, I take into account whether I would want to look for something (in very public view) and if you look at my caches, you will notice that most by far have survived nicely. This was the first time I've had property damaged as a result of my cache, so I promptly archived it and removed it from the property.

 

Also if I feel like warnings are needed, I state them on the cache page (http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=0908cbc1-db2f-4e58-83ae-fd0b67f4b1c3)

Edited January 3, 2006 by The Blind Acorn

[tossedsalad]

I think the urge to "protect" cachers is somewhat over done and is resulting in very inconsistent judgements. One one hand I recently had a cache archived in part because of a fear that someone would be arrested for tampering with a "mailbox". On the other hand there are caches that are deliberately placed in dangerous locations just to up the difficulty.

 

Heck, there is a picture in one of the threads in this or the MDGPS forums of a cacher standing on a pair of street signs halfway up a light pole (still not high enough to reach the cache) here in Frederick. I have not seen one critical mention of this or similar caches which pose a REAL danger to cachers. But if you put a fake outlet box on a wooden post with no connecting conduit, that somehow encourages a cacher to stick a knife in an outlet.

 

How is that different from putting a cache in rocks where you can easily be reaching for a snake instead of a cache? That is a very real scenario and people get bitten by snakes while caching. So do we ban caches in the woods?

 

I don't buy into the idea that you "encourage" dangerous hunting behavior by the type of cache you put out. I have been stumped looking for caches before where the only logical hide was something that I did not think was safe or wise to search. What did I do? I walked away.

 

Don't try to make caching safe by banning caches that are not dangeous. Keep caching safe by advocating safe hunting!

[Keystone]

One one hand I recently had a cache archived in part because of a fear that someone would be arrested for tampering with a "mailbox". 

There's a law relevant to interference with postal service equipment.

 

But if you put a fake outlet box on a wooden post with no connecting conduit, that somehow encourages a cacher to stick a knife in an outlet. 

 

Most electrical utility equipment is privately owned, raising issues of permission as well as safety.

 

How is that different from putting a cache in rocks where you can easily be reaching for a snake instead of a cache?  That is a very real scenario and people get bitten by snakes while caching.  So do we ban caches in the woods? 

 

In some natural areas, yes. There is a state park near me which is the only place in the state where one can see the rare Missisaugua Rattlesnake (sp?). In the most sensitive part of its habitat, a wild prairie, only virtual clues can be found, leading to a cache in "normal" woodland terrain. But in general, there is not a law against sticking your hand into a rock crevice where a snake may be lurking.

[tossedsalad]

One one hand I recently had a cache archived in part because of a fear that someone would be arrested for tampering with a "mailbox". 

There's a law relevant to interference with postal service equipment.

 

I should have known that I couldn't mention a cache being archived without some sort of feedback from an approver. If you really want to discuss this, the law only applies to mailboxes that are "mailboxes", that is, they are used for delivery of mail. If the mailbox is used as a cache (it was locked to keep the mailman and other muggles out), it is very simply not a "mailbox" according to the USPS.

 

I don't want to argue this point, I am simply contrasting the fake mailbox to the danger of falling from the top of a light pole, which you removed from the quote. By removing the context, you are changing the topic of this thread.

 

But if you put a fake outlet box on a wooden post with no connecting conduit, that somehow encourages a cacher to stick a knife in an outlet. 

 

Most electrical utility equipment is privately owned, raising issues of permission as well as safety.

 

No one is talking about privately owned electrical utility equipment. We are talking about putting a fake electrical box on a post. Do we not allow caches hidden in fences? Please don't try to toss a red herring across the trail. The issue we are discussing is the potential danger to cachers when they are hunting the fake electrical box.

 

How is that different from putting a cache in rocks where you can easily be reaching for a snake instead of a cache?  That is a very real scenario and people get bitten by snakes while caching.  So do we ban caches in the woods? 

 

In some natural areas, yes. There is a state park near me which is the only place in the state where one can see the rare Missisaugua Rattlesnake (sp?). In the most sensitive part of its habitat, a wild prairie, only virtual clues can be found, leading to a cache in "normal" woodland terrain. But in general, there is not a law against sticking your hand into a rock crevice where a snake may be lurking.

 

Now you are so far off topic I have no idea what you are talking about. Did you read the rest of this thread? I am beginning to understand why it can be hard to get a cache approved at times. The line of thought in your post seems to center around the mailbox that I used as a point of comparison in my first paragraph. The rest of my post has nothing to do with laws or mailboxes. I am comparing the types of caches allowed and not allowed. They are very inconsistent when you consider the hazard that they present to a cacher.

 

Or do I not understand what you are saying about "there is not a law against sticking your hand into a rock crevice where a snake may be lurking"?

 

Let me make is simple.

 

ALLOWED

caches in rocks, hazard - being bitten by snakes in rocks

caches 20 feet above ground on public light poles, hazard - being arrested, falling, suspicion of planting a bomb near a train station

 

Proposed and/or actually NOT ALLOWED

caches in fake electrical boxes, hazard - cachers thinking this means all electrical boxes are caches

caches in fake mailboxes, hazard - uh, having to talk to the mailman to explain why this box is not being used for mail???

 

You tell me which are the real hazards and which are the imagined ones?

[bogleman]

To one of the OP's original questions. I am guilty of such a type of cache, which by the way is now closed. Many new folke want to get that hide out there and for some finding a good hiding spot/style of their own can be a challenge so lets just copy these and it's easy to grab a new electrical workbox of sometype and make it look like it should be there. Does not require much creativity but looks good when done. One thing that I try to do when listing a cache for review is to provide as much information as possible such as the type of container, how it is hidden, if I could find any safety concerns in the area of the cache hide and along the general route of travel and any known (to me) caches in the near area. I do this as a personal rule of my own. I want to make the review process as easy for them as possible - it shows that I have put some thought into my cache and taken the effort to think of others who venture after my cache. I try to keep my "note to reviewer" as formal as possible and always end with thank you for your time and consideration.

[+Pasha]

Proposed and/or actually NOT ALLOWED

caches in fake electrical boxes, hazard - cachers thinking this means all electrical boxes are caches

caches in fake mailboxes, hazard - uh, having to talk to the mailman to explain why this box is not being used for mail???

I think you're guilty here of the same thing that we all do at one time or another, which is to assume that everyone thinks the same way you do. Just because YOU aren't going to ever check a live electrical box for a cache based on your experience in finding caches in fake electrical boxes, doesn't mean that everyone else is as observant and experienced.

 

I know of at least two local caches hidden in fake mailboxes. I don't think anyone is quibbling with the letter of the law, but again, apparently not everyone thinks the way you do about this particular issue. My guess is that there was a simple disconnect between your description of the hide/container and the reviewer's understanding of it.

[+pwcorg]

After some thinking on my own and some of the things I have read in the forums, I have gotten to this point. I think a lot of people are pushing the limits. Caches hidden as electrical outlets etc. are the things I am speaking of. I notice these edge pushing things are becoming a norm. I don't think they are proper. I feel approvers should ask the question when reviewing caches to have the owner explain the hide or provide a picture. Some hides push the limits by being a pine cone etc, and that is one thing. But as a whole, I am noticing (and hearing) of people putting things out that could be dangerous to cachers trying to find the hide.

 

I have found the fake electric box and don't think it is a good idea because when someone feels they have to open something electrical because it is the only place that makes sense for the cache to be, they are setting themself up for the biggest shock of their life. (no pun intended)

 

I think as more cachers push the limit, we have to curtail this enthuasiam somehow.

Survival of the fittest in action. LOL Hopefully BEFORE they get a chance to reproduce.