Available In Winter

1k · January 2, 2006

I set the "available in winter" attribute on my latest cache hide. The first person to hunt the cache was unable to find it with a light snow cover. The 2" of snow undoubtedly helped to camouflage the hide, but certainly did nnot make the find impossible.

The cacher contacted me for a nudge, which I gladly supplied. He indicated that because I had set this attribute on the cache, he spent a lot of time looking for above-ground hiding places. That may well be why he missed it.

Perhaps I should not have said that the cache is "available in winter". To me, this attribute means that you can get to the hiding place, not that the hiding place will not be obscured by snow. I find nothing in the FAQ to clarify.

What is you opinion? Is there an accepted definition for this attribute?

January 2, 2006

Since it's opinions you're seeking, I would say you are right and the finder in question was not. Available doesn't mean visible.

4.5k · January 2, 2006

Available mean to me to be able to find without the need for a snowblower. You can "get" to any cache but the problem is the snow cover makes it near impossible to reach by hand wihtout removing most of the snow around.

Or it's in such an obvious area (maybe given by the hint) that you can get to it by removing only the snow covering it up. For example, I hid a cache under a small tree, the only one in the area. The hint stated that. So even if there was a lot of snow, you could find it with minimal looking. I made a note on teh cache page that it was available in the snow if you use the hint.

January 2, 2006

We have never cached in the snow so here's our opinion for what its worth. We think that the available in winter attribute means that it is no problem getting to the cache with snow on the ground. Meaning that the road or trail is passable without special equipment or it won't take a half day to dig out the cache. Hope it snows here soon so we can test this out .

January 2, 2006

Interesting question. What it says, "available in winter," seems kind of, well, dumb to me. Unless the cache is way up in the mountains and is not accessible by normal means. This doesn't apply to the vast majority of caches. So then the next logical interpretation would be "winter friendly." But this interpretation invites confusion, as we have seen.

So what I do is bypass the whole "available in winter" attribute choice and say in the description if it is designed to be somewhat easily found even after a heavy snow, which a couple of mine are.

That just clears things up, doesn't it? I can see where a person would think either way.

Melrose

1.6k · January 2, 2006

One of my first cache attemps was in the mountains above my home.

The snow by my house had been melted for several days. Me being the genius that I am, didn't realize snow doesn't melt in the mountains quite as easily.

A foot and a half of snow can make a cache very hard, especialyl for a newbie.

I vote to remove the Available in Winter attribute. It's ambiguous, and can be easily replaced by a note on the cache page "This cache may become slightly more difficult with any accumulation of snow, but it is still accessible."

January 2, 2006

In my opinion, available in winter means that you shouldn't expect the cache to be more difficult to find because of snow.

That said, most CACHE AREAS should be available during the winter with the help of snowshoes, skis, etc. So, although you can get to the cache location, the snow still can make it more difficult or impossible to find the cache itself.

When I see available in winter, I don't assume the trail is snow-free, just the cache.

38.2k · January 2, 2006

I think the attribute should indicate that the cache is easily findable despite snow. Most caches are "available" in the winter, so an icon to indicate that would be pointless.

I'd only use the attribute if my cache is in a tree, cave or other sheltered spot where its easily findable no matter how much snow is there.

January 2, 2006

Being it is winter here and most of our finds have been done with snow on the ground we have found most of our local hiders use this to mean that the find is accessabble even after a heavier snow, genrally they are up higher or the hiding spot will stick out even with snow.

January 2, 2006

Being it is winter here and most of our finds have been done with snow on the ground we have found most of our local hiders use this to mean that the find is accessabble even after a heavier snow, genrally they are up higher or the hiding spot will stick out even with snow.

That's what I take it to mean too.

1k · January 2, 2006

Well, there seems to be some ambiguity--with perhaps a majority favoring the "not obscured by snow" interpretation. I think the best course is to remove the attribute from the cache in question, and add a sentence to the cache description.

Thanks for your input.

January 2, 2006

In my opinion the attribute indicates the cache is as findable with snow as it is without snow. Most caches are "available" in the winter so an icon to indicate that to me would be pointless. I only use the attribute if my cache is in a tree or other spot where its findable no matter how much snow is there.

9.4k · January 2, 2006

I don't think the attribute has anything to do with the terrain change due to snow. Even in Colorado you can "get to" most caches year-round. The problem would be digging a cache out of the snow, whether it's 2 inches or 10 feet, how are you going to know where to dig? Since one of the guidelines is no buried caches , "If a shovel, trowel or other “pointy” object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate." then "available in winter" should mean that you won't have to dig to find it. After all, that's one reason why buried caches aren't allowed in the first place - the needle-in-a-haystack type hunts that would discourage too many cachers.

2.3k · January 2, 2006

This does not seem to be a problem in Florida. All of our caches are available in winter!

In fact they are all mostly snow-mobile accesable too if that is your desired mode of transport. :lol:

5.7k · January 2, 2006

I set the "available in winter" attribute on my latest cache hide. The first person to hunt the cache was unable to find it with a light snow cover. The 2" of snow undoubtedly helped to camouflage the hide, but certainly did nnot make the find impossible.

The cacher contacted me for a nudge, which I gladly supplied. He indicated that because I had set this attribute on the cache, he spent a lot of time looking for above-ground hiding places. That may well be why he missed it.

Perhaps I should not have said that the cache is "available in winter". To me, this attribute means that you can get to the hiding place, not that the hiding place will not be obscured by snow. I find nothing in the FAQ to clarify.

What is you opinion? Is there an accepted definition for this attribute?

"Impossible", interesting choice of word. Is there a single cache that is "Impossible" to find? What would be the purpose in that?

1k · January 2, 2006

I don't think the attribute has anything to do with the terrain change due to snow. Even in Colorado you can "get to" most caches year-round. The problem would be digging a cache out of the snow, whether it's 2 inches or 10 feet, how are you going to know where to dig? Since one of the guidelines is no buried caches , "If a shovel, trowel or other “pointy” object is used to dig, whether in order to hide or to find the cache, then it is not appropriate." then "available in winter" should mean that you won't have to dig to find it. After all, that's one reason why buried caches aren't allowed in the first place - the needle-in-a-haystack type hunts that would discourage too many cachers.

If the no-buried-caches guideline applied to snow, then the vast majority of caches in my part of the country (and many other areas, I'm sure) would rate a "not available in winter" attribute. Here in New England, we are used to digging in snow to find geocaches.

What I assumed the "available in winter" attribute to mean is that the cache is hidden in a location that is not closed off in winter, as many wilderness areas, state forests, beaches, and state parks are (regardless of snow). If I was naming an attribute intended to indicate that the cache might be covered in snow, I would definitely mention snow in the name of the attribute. Yeah, I know--the icon is a snowflake, but I still think the atribute is ambiguously named, and I think some of the responses to this thread bear that out. Personally, I don't intend to use it in the future unless both potential meanings are satisfied.

4.5k · January 2, 2006

This does not seem to be a problem in Florida. All of our caches are available in winter!

In fact they are all mostly snow-mobile accesable too if that is your desired mode of transport.

Wise-a**

3.9k · January 2, 2006

I have been avoiding using this icon for exactly the reasons mentioned. I have a couple of caches which would be hard to get to with snow on the ground but would be easy to find, and several which are easy to get to but you wouldn't want to hunt for under even 2 inches of snow.

Of course, the icon is tri-state. Perhaps the presence of the icon should mean "nothing about the final drive or the cache location will be made any harder by a foot of snow, although you if you can't get out of your front door, don't blame me". The "negative icon" means "if it's snowing, forget it", and the absence means "take your chances" :lol:

January 3, 2006

I too think the attribute "available in Winter" is confusing. If it is an issue with the cache being obscured by snow shouldn't we then have an attribute "available in Fall" to account for the cache being hidden by leaves?

I fully expect to do a little poking around and prodding to find every cache I look for and never have the anticipation it is going to be right out in the open.

If it is an access problem as far as being able to get to the cache by normal means that can be addressed in the cache description the same as an unimproved road would be during heavy rain.

Perhaps the original creator of this attribute needs to comment to clarify just what they intended.

38.2k · January 3, 2006

too think the attribute "available in Winter" is confusing. If it is an issue with the cache being obscured by snow shouldn't we then have an attribute "available in Fall" to account for the cache being hidden by leaves?

2 feet of snow on the ground presents considerably more of a challenge than leaves. I don't think I've ever seen anybody post to these forums asking if people still hunt caches in the fall, or asking for advice about cache hunting in the fall.

What I assumed the "available in winter" attribute to mean is that the cache is hidden in a location that is not closed off in winter, as many wilderness areas, state forests, beaches, and state parks are (regardless of snow).

Because most caches can be reached in the snow, I assumed the icon meant that the cache is findable in the snow once you get there. There are some areas that are closed off to vehicles in the winter, but I've never seen one that was closed off to foot travel (I'm not saying there aren't any). If there was an area that is totally off limits in the winter I'd probably use the negative version ("not available in winter) icon, but other than that I would only use the positive ("available in Winter") version for a cache that are easily findable in the snow, without taking into account the journey there.

Edited January 3, 2006 by briansnat

2.2k · January 3, 2006

having cached in snow that was up to my tush before, "available in winter" usually means that the cache is at least 2 to 3 feet off the ground. at least that's what it means in northern michigan.

January 3, 2006

I also take the snow-flake icon to mean it can be found when snow has occured .... so it is accessable without the use of a snow shovel. <_< ImpalaBob

1.4k · January 3, 2006

My opinion...

Available in winter means, you can try and find it. It may be buried in snow, but you can physically get to ground zero.

Many parks and places are closed during the winter months for a variety of reasons. Some of those reasons have to do with snowfall....some don't.

Here in Idaho, there are a number of caches placed in Lava Tubes (caves), and since bats hibernate in them, they are closed during the winter months. This has nothing to do with snowfall.

Many access roads are also closed during winter, keeping you from getting to ground zero.

Some caches are underwater and may have a layer of ice above them, making them unavailable (except for the very skilled and trained diver).

Most of the virtuals at Yellowstone park are unavailable during winter due to the park being closed.

Just because a cache may be under 3 feet of snow, doesn't make it unavailable...it just makes it harder to find.

January 3, 2006

I have a new cache, Moose and Squirrel, GCRT97, which is driving people crazy. One of the masters (husband and wife team) finally sent me a note asking for clarification. This couple have some devlish hides, so I am happy that I have temporarily stumped them. But I never thought it would be ubfoumd after 48 hours. It satarted as a 2,5 diff, then I raised it to 3.5 and now it sits at 4.

In his email he says:

The snow friendly icon is a little more vague in meaning. It usually

means to me that it is not directly on the ground or is in a location

that is not likely to get substantial snow cover.

I was surprised to see this topic already being discussed.

I'm going to remove the attribute and add a sentence like what has been said above.

11.3k · January 3, 2006

After reading this discussion, I'm wondering if the icon should instead be "Not Available in Winter."

That would be very clear.

Here in the San Diego area, the "Available in Winter" icon could be used on all the local caches.

38.2k · January 3, 2006

After reading this discussion, I'm wondering if the icon should instead be "Not Available in Winter."

That would be very clear.

Here in the San Diego area, the "Available in Winter" icon could be used on all the local caches.

That is a choice.

January 3, 2006

I put 'available in winter' on The Scottish Cache because I placed it using snowshoes and chose a hiding spot that could be readily searched despite the amount of snow in the area. I intended it to be a year-round challenge, one for the local folks who prefer backcountry caches.

Sadly, a couple of the ones who went for it early on don't seem to have thought through their approach and ran into trouble. And others appear to have missed the part about it being accessible year-round, making their searches harder than they needed to be. But I'm still hoping that someone will find it under conditions similar to those I experienced when I hid the container.

January 3, 2006

"Impossible", interesting choice of word. Is there a single cache that is "Impossible" to find?

Oh, yeah, there are such things in winter. Last winter, for example, we went hunting a cache and found what we thought was the spot. Unfortunately, there was about 3" of ice cover in the trees where the cache was. We went back a few weeks later in early spring and found the cache. It was right at that spot we had looked and still encased in about 1/2" of ice and still very hard to get out. Yep, it was impossible a few weeks earlier.

Winter available, to me anyway, means that it is not impossible like above, but still not guaranteed that the 1ft to 2ft over night falls of snow in snowsqualls we get here won't make it extremely difficult to near impossible to find. Winter friendly would mean elevated or protected so that heavy snowfalls don't affect the ability to find it.

JDandDD

January 6, 2006

Which of the following combination applies in your mind when you see the snow attribute:

A. The area is open during times of snow

B. Finding the cache container should not be significantly more difficult with snow

C. Getting to the cache area should require no special tools (i.e. snow shoes, ice axe, shovel, jeep)

D. Getting to the cache is not significantly more hazardous.

E. Cache is elevated off the ground.

F. Cache is in a location where snowfall should not significantly cove it (i.e.on the ground under a rock ledge or off the ground).

G. It may be buried in snow, but you can physically get to ground zero.

H. Other

In the past I've leaned towards B in our cache listings. MS

38.2k · January 6, 2006

Which of the following combination applies in your mind when you see the snow attribute:

A. The area is open during times of snow

B. Finding the cache container should not be significantly more difficult with snow

C. Getting to the cache area should require no special tools (i.e. snow shoes, ice axe, shovel, jeep)

D. Getting to the cache is not significantly more hazardous.

E. Cache is elevated off the ground.

F. Cache is in a location where snowfall should not significantly cove it (i.e.on the ground under a rock ledge or off the ground).

G. It may be buried in snow, but you can physically get to ground zero.

H. Other

In the past I've leaned towards B in our cache listings. MS

Which of the following combination applies in your mind when you see the snow attribute:

A. The area is open during times of snow Yes

B. Finding the cache container should not be significantly more difficult with snow Yes

C. Getting to the cache area should require no special tools (i.e. snow shoes, ice axe, shovel, jeep) No

D. Getting to the cache is not significantly more hazardous. No

E. Cache is elevated off the ground. Maybe

F. Cache is in a location where snowfall should not significantly cove it (i.e.on the ground under a rock ledge or off the ground). Maybe

G. It may be buried in snow, but you can physically get to ground zero. No

January 9, 2006

In the past I've leaned towards B in our cache listings.

So do I.

I have some caches, which can covered by ice and snow in winter and they have icon "not available in winter", and that don't mean that you can't find it. You can try if you want, but you know what it can be. <_<

"Available in winter" means to me (and in my caches) that you can find the cachebox as easy with or without the snow (snow or ice doesn't cover the cachebox).

And I think most of caches in Finland use that meanings.

Edited January 9, 2006 by Maxxy

January 9, 2006

to me avalible in winter means that you put the cach somewhere that is seosonal meaning it closes in the winter. like i just hide my first cach up at my cabin and i put it as avalible in winter even though my cach cant be seen to clearly and sometimes need tire chains on all 4 wheels and 4 wheel drive. :huh:

20.7k · January 9, 2006

I think it means that the cache would not be burried under the snow. If one is not allowed to access the location during the winter, the cache should be disabled until such time as location is opened back up to visitors.

Available In Winter

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