Jump to content

Attention Wal-mart Cachers


4leafclover
Followers 3

Recommended Posts

hey guys...just a reminder..this isn't about railroad caches...

Thank you. It's also not about placing caches on transformers, which has also been discussed.

 

But it IS about caches in potentially hazardous or inappropriate places, and it's all related. That's why it's called a "discussion".

It's also about permission. Who would know more about potential hazards than the person responsible for the area where the cache is to be placed?

Link to comment

I've been to a several caches I thought were borderline to the guidelines, or that I just thought were in a location where you would be too suspicious to search, was to dangeros to search, or just plain in a place where permission wasn't asked. The reason I don't cause a fuss and scream SBA!!, it's MY opinion, and a hundred other cachers might think it's fine.

 

You have to look for a clear violation of guidelines before criticizing someones cache, and unless you asked the owner before looking, you never know if permission was asked or not.

Link to comment

Just a reminder to stay on-topic. The discussion is about Wal-mart and other similar parking lot caches, permission, and the like, not railroads or other similar off-limits hides. If you want to talk about those, feel free to start another topic. Since there are may be Wal-mart/parking lot caches hidden on or near transformers, they are fair game in this thread.

 

Thank you.

 

:ph34r:

Link to comment
Approvers need to ask questions about exactly where the cache sits.  If near a railroad track is not allowed, neither are gas lines, electrical connections or other inherently dangerous locations.

Please point me to the section of the listing guidelines where "gas lines, electrical connections or other inherently dangerous locations" are listed as prohibited places for a cache. Because then we would know whether hiders and reviewers were doing a good job of following that guideline.

 

If there is no such section, then the reviewers would get flamed if they dared to impose their own "rule" to deny a fine electrical transformer cache. :ph34r:

 

(BTW, I agree with you, and would support the addition of "utility equipment" to the list of off-limits locations.)

Well isn't there a rule about getting permission from the owner when a cache is placed on private property?

I see nothing in the cache description which could possibly lead a reviewer to conclude that permission was not obtained. By checking the acknowledgment boxes, the hider tells the listing service that they've read and understood the listing guidelines.

Link to comment
Just a reminder to stay on-topic.  The discussion is about Wal-mart and other similar parking lot caches, permission, and the like, not railroads or other similar off-limits hides.  If you want to talk about those, feel free to start another topic.  Since there are may be Wal-mart/parking lot caches hidden on or near transformers, they are fair game in this thread.

 

Thank you.

 

:ph34r:

Oh for the love of god. There also are/MAY BE Wal*Mart parking lot caches within 150 feet of a railroad track. Does that make it OK to discuss in here?

 

There also MAY BE Wal*Mart parking lot caches that are in film canisters and some in Altoids cans. Does that mean this is an appropriate place to discuss container types?

 

Moderating a forum is one thing, but this is taking it to the extreme.

 

I'll go lurk in my PM box now and wait for my warning. :(

Edited by ParrotRob
Link to comment
But it IS about caches in potentially hazardous or inappropriate places, and it's all related.  That's why it's called a "discussion".

And I agree with that estimation and it gives me heart to dip my newbie toe in here and try again. This is the comment I made a little while ago, that I feel got lost in the intensity of things:

I saw your post and forced myself not to type 'pssst... its in the lamppost'.

 

Besides, the cache was not hidden in a dangerous location. That has been made clear. It was in a spot that this particular walmart security person did not feel was appropriate. Therefore, it was archived. That's the whole story. Its not a blanket rule about parking lt caches, walmart caches, private property, dangerous locations, The Walt Disney Company, ABC, or railroads.

Edited by sbell111
Link to comment
First of all, let's assume that this person really is a walmart employee...

 

Since the security now knows where the cache is, it is no longer a security concern. If they see people hunting a cache, they will know exactly what they are doing there.

"Didn't you see someone tampering with the gas lines?"

"Yeah, but I thought he was a geocacher."

 

"Didn't you see that thief hanging around the back of the store?"

"Yeah, but I thought he was a geocacher."

Link to comment
Moderating a forum is one thing, but this is taking it to the extreme.

The point was this topic is about Wal-mart and similar hides as well as permission for those hides, not a discussion of potentially hazardous areas like railroad tracks (it has already been established this was not the case in this instance). If you have a topic that pertains to those kind of hides, start a new one. If you have any questions, send me a PM.

 

Thank you to the rest of you who are attempting to keep this thread on-topic.

Link to comment
I saw your post and forced myself not to type 'pssst... its in the lamppost'.

Heh. There actually was a lamppost in the general vicinity, and that was my first thought, but there was no "skirt," no gaps anywhere, and one oval access panel that was bolted on rather tightly and I expect no one would expect a seeker to use tools on such a thing--methinks that really would be over the line. Plus the co-ords were against it, and indicated the rock pond. I still harbor feelings that it's maybe not kosher to be rearranging the parking lot's landscaping?

 

That's the main gist of my even thinking to post about it here, wondering whether that's just newby jitters or was I feeling valid concern? If this sort of thing is really common, than it seems I fretted about nothing and I should have just blithely started digging right there in broad daylight and crowds bedamned. I just don't know, else I'd not be feeling the need to ask around.

Link to comment

Lemon Fresh Dog's simple cache placement plan:

 

1) IF the cache is placed on private property GET PERMISSION IN WRITING

2) INCLUDE a copy of the written permission IN THE CACHE

3) NOTE on the cache page that you have permission

 

This way, if someone finds the cache and is stopped by Security -- you can show them the e-mail, letter, whatever and say "Joe Smith, store manager said it was okay"

 

If you don't find the cache, you can direct them to the website (maybe even inside their office as they interigate you) and note that permission was granted - contact the placer (me) or even take them to find the cache and show them the confirmation.

 

Micros are a bit of an exception -- you may not have the ability to place the slip inside. However, I still note it on the page.

Link to comment
If you ... wanna show your displeasure, don't buy from them. Don't shop there.

Very good advice!

 

I'm kind of leery of these "parking lot" caches, especially since I tried (and failed) to locate one yesterday. From what I could tell, the actual find was going to entail digging under rocks used to fill an "island" among several others dotted around the parking lot of a very busy shopping complex. I felt very exposed and "funny" about being there, especially moving someone else's rocks while a literally non-stop progression of cars went by just a few yards away. I moved only a few rocks and then gave it up as just too weird and uncomfortable-feeling.

 

What do other people feel about these kinds of caches? Not for the newbie until one grows a thicker skin about the whole thing?

One of those just popped up in our costco. Fortunately, ours was one that you could just step back and see if you thought about it hard enough, so I wasn't uncomfortable. It was a fun cache. :ph34r:

Link to comment
My attitude (recently developed), when the coords put me in a place where I feel I really shouldn't be, is to abort the search and post a note (or SBA if really serious) on the cache page. If the cache really IS hidden in the electrical box, I figure it is one that I don't NEED to find.

Exactly.

Link to comment
the "dangerous, don't play here" issue is only a small part of the urban cahing pitfalls that we can get into with caches like this one. It is a concern of mine that we are encouraging seekers to fool with things that should not be fooled with at all because of our newer, more creative, cache containers.

 

This cache could very well have been a fake bolt apparently holding the gas meter in place (or whatever structure is in the area that might be less obviously dangerous- like your typical picnic shelter fer-instance).

 

The only way to make certain a bolt is not the cache is to REMOVE it. The hider could have left the bolt deliberately loose so it would come off easily and obviously reveal the cache, but the last finder might have had strong fingers. Therefore a seeker might justify using a wrench. How far can we go?

 

Even with permission, there can come a point, especially on a 4 or 5 star cache, where unintended trouble can come from over-zealous hiding AND seeking.

 

Bottom line is, with urban caching especially, we must be VERY careful both in hiding and seeking. And despite our best efforts, sometimes we are gonna go awry.

After finding a couple of these sorts of hides, it's making me realize that we're creating monsters. I've molested sprinklers and electrical boxes (and finding later that the cache wasn't there) enough times to know that this is very dangerous and can lead to unintentional vandalism.

Link to comment
First of all, let's assume that this person really is a walmart employee...

 

Since the security now knows where the cache is, it is no longer a security concern.  If they see people hunting a cache, they will know exactly what they are doing there.

We just got stopped by a policeman the other day in a costco parking lot (a different cache then I mentioned in an earlier post-this one was a regular size) while caching.

 

We said that we were geocaching, he said that he knew about it, and he asked to see what sort of goodies we had found.

 

Last night, a new cache in a local alley was being searched for by a family. Someone called the cops on them. They explained what they were doing, the cops went away and left them to it.

 

Knowledge should be enough to deter would be security risks. But each area of the country is different, and it helps to know how the people in your area might react to a hide, and act accordingly as a cache hider.

Edited by Ambrosia
Link to comment
Lemon Fresh Dog's simple cache placement plan:

 

1) IF the cache is placed on private property GET PERMISSION IN WRITING

2) INCLUDE a copy of the written permission IN THE CACHE

3) NOTE on the cache page that you have permission

 

This way, if someone finds the cache and is stopped by Security -- you can show them the e-mail, letter, whatever and say "Joe Smith, store manager said it was okay"

 

If you don't find the cache, you can direct them to the website (maybe even inside their office as they interigate you) and note that permission was granted - contact the placer (me) or even take them to find the cache and show them the confirmation.

 

Micros are a bit of an exception -- you may not have the ability to place the slip inside. However, I still note it on the page.

And just to be sure, it may not be a bad idea to have the permission slip notarized and copies sent to the local Bomb Squad and Department of Homeland Security.

Link to comment
I hear that they may ban caching in South Carolina. :ph34r:

Please from now on do not make any post pertaining to this topic unless you know everything behind it. Geocaching is not going to be offically banned in the state.

 

I hate to be so mean and rude about this, but misguided information is just not needed right now.

 

If you wish to better informed about this situation, feel free to email me and I will provide you with the correct information.

 

Misguided information only causes rants and raves about stuff that is not true, so back to the topic at hand....which I have no clue what it is now since this thread has gone so far left and right I am not sure where we are.

Link to comment
As I recall, it was because railroads got pissed and people got arrested.

 

Fair 'nuff. Especially if that's applied consistently to other places where folks run afoul of the law.

 

The only way this can be applied "consistently" is if TPTB are notified on an individual basis.

 

Now, maybe I'm the only newbie with these kinds of feelings who's reading this thread and going, "Uh, oh, I was RIGHT!" but given the numbers of new people signed up since Xmas, I doubt it.  So, given there's a seeming font of collective wisdom gathering here to chew on this incident, could some of you wise heads steer things towards what should be going in with these kinds of caches, both in their very existance and in how seekers should approach them?  For example, how can the context of "stealth" even exist in close proximity to thousands of shoppers, unless one visits in the dead of night?

 

The stealth issue is a totally separate topic. There are many ways to go. Each cacher has his/her own style of concealing what they are really doing. Why don'tt you open that in a new topic if you're interested... it has been discussed many times, but I understand the search function is malfunctioning presently.

Link to comment
And this cache got past an approver?

 

And seemed to be placed without permission...interesting. Sounds like the beginings of the end of this hobby. If too many people are as irresponsible as this, we will not be allowed to place caches anywhere.

Re-read the original cache description, without the benefit of any of the logs. Click on the maps. Search for nearby caches. Like, everything that a volunteer cache reviewer does. Then tell us which guidelines are violated.

Link to comment

I know a manager at a local Walmart so I asked thier thoughts on this, from what I understand is that if there are any caches on Walmart property the person who placed it there did not have permission to place it on the property because it would not be allowed so therfore he / she would be trespassing.

In this case...say the store manager gave permission (and it would HAVE to be the store manager...and highly unlikely), if security says it cant be there then they can make you remove it.

 

Since I have never hid my own cache Im not 100% sure how this works, but if a cache is placed on private property shouldnt the permission of the landowner be verified before the cache is approved? False statements of approval could lead to a cachers arrest or even worse getting shot at by the land owner...even if the land owner is just shooting warning shots in the air its an experience I wouldnt like to have. :D

And in my opinion I think this would be a very fast way to give geocachers a bad name.

Edited by tonyaltn
Link to comment

Volunteer cache reviewers assume that the cache owner has followed all of the guidelines, including permission, unless there is something on the cache page which would suggest otherwise. If you had to prove everything to hide a cache, publication would take weeks rather than hours or days.

 

So when would permission be questioned? If there was a reason on the cache page to do so. For example, "don't worry about the 'POSTED' signs -- this is a cool area and everyone goes there." Or, the cache is hidden in a State Park that has a permit policy, and there's no mention of the permit.

 

I don't think Wal-Mart has a permit policy... yet. :D

Link to comment
I know a manager at a local Walmart so I asked thier thoughts on this, from what I understand is that if there are any caches on Walmart property the person who placed it there did not have permission to place it on the property because it would not be allowed so therfore he / she would be trespassing.

In this case...say the store manager gave permission (and it would HAVE to be the store manager...and highly unlikely), if security says it cant be there then they can make you remove it.

 

Since I have never hid my own cache Im not 100% sure how this works, but if a cache is placed on private property shouldnt the permission of the landowner be verified before the cache is approved? False statements of approval could lead to a cachers arrest or even worse getting shot at by the land owner...even if the land owner is just shooting warning shots in the air its an experience I would like to have. :D

And in my opinion I think this would be a very fast way to give geocachers a bad name.

No, the guidelines say that the cache hider is responsible for obtaining any needed permission. Checking that you have read and understood the guidelines is your acknowldegement that you have obtained permission (if needed).

Link to comment
Since I have never hid my own cache I'm not 100% sure how this works, but if a cache is placed on private property shouldnt the permission of the landowner be verified before the cache is approved?

When a cache is submitted for listing the cache hider has to check a box that states that he read the guidelines for placing a cache.

One of the guidelines is that adequate permission has been received.

The cache reviewers (who are volunteers and doing this on their own time) have to take the person at their word that this guideline was followed. It is, for all practical purposes, impossible for the cache reviewers to verify that the hider has received permission. I'm sure someone can provide exact numbers, but I would guess that thousands of caches are submitted each week.

The cache reviewers have to depend on the honesty of the cache hider, or wait until a problem develops with a particular cache and then react.

 

 

I got to learn to type faster.

Edited by RichardMoore
Link to comment

Let me ask you an question. Was is here a big problem?

Here in Germany some Caches on Private proberty got send from the proberty owner to the police. And the proberty owner tried to press charges against the cache owner. But in all cases i heard there was no chance for this.

 

So you only got was an little email from Walmart and you had to close this cache.

 

No Problems with the police or other goverment people.

 

It's all something about getting permission or not.

Next time the owner knows where he has to ask first.

 

And you never should place an cache near an high voltage area. Or near an goverment off limit area.

 

And yes when i will place my first cache i will make sure to have every permission i need. Because i don't want that my 5 Star Cache gets picked up by the low entforcement.

Link to comment
Volunteer cache reviewers assume that the cache owner has followed all of the guidelines, including permission, unless there is something on the cache page which would suggest otherwise. If you had to prove everything to hide a cache, publication would take weeks rather than hours or days.

 

That does make sense...it just sounded like a good idea when I typed it :D .

I havnt had this problem yet and was just thinking about what would worry me about private property cache searches. I suppose once I get a couple under my belt I will realize there isnt so much to worry about. (newbie concerns I guess)

Link to comment
So, they won't allow geocaching, but they'll allow people to stick flyers on your windshield, collect donations, etc????

Yes, they will allow people to stick flyers on your windshield and they will allow people to set up tables and beg you to death for donations for their good cause. Yes, they allow the boy scouts and girls scouts to sell their wares at their times of the year. The secret? Permission. My old Sunday School teacher is a Wal*Mart store manager. When I complain to him about getting the flyers on my car, he stated that they had gotten permission from him and his corporate office to do so. Wal*Mart will allow just about any activity as long as you seek their permission. I have seen gospel concerts held in their parking lots along with rummage sales to help the local homeless shelter. The whole secret is getting permission - that and not hiding the stupid thing in front of a security camera in an employee only section.

 

Baptist Deacon

Deacon, that was extremely well put! I could not agree more! And, to compound troubles, the hider apparently placed the cache in an employee-only area, under security cameras. Reminds me of a REALLY BAD recent local cache placement which Sue and I stumbled upon the other day; that one is now archived.

Link to comment
So, they won't allow geocaching, but they'll allow people to stick flyers on your windshield, collect donations, etc????

Yes, they will allow people to stick flyers on your windshield and they will allow people to set up tables and beg you to death for donations for their good cause.

While I do not have any lawbooks to support my supposition, it would seem to me that placing flyers on a windshield is a violation of several laws. It is a trespass upon my personal property. It violates littering laws. And, it is a motor vehicle violation: obstructing the driver's view.

But that is not the question at hand. I see the security cameras in the parking lot of (large chain store). I choose not to shop at that store. It is violating my personal right to privacy. I do not shop at any store that stops me on the way out, from the cash register to ask for my sales receipt. My one and only purchase at (large chain store), a person at the exit asked if I had a receipt. I replied that I did. As I passed her, she asked again. I replied, again, that I did. As I exited she asked 'May I see it?' I did not reply, and returned to my car. Yes, I know. "It keeps the prices down." Thanks, but I'll buy from stores that are nicer.

Does this mean that I should archive my cache in their parking lot? :D

Link to comment
So, they won't allow geocaching, but they'll allow people to stick flyers on your windshield, collect donations, etc????

Yes, they will allow people to stick flyers on your windshield and they will allow people to set up tables and beg you to death for donations for their good cause.

While I do not have any lawbooks to support my supposition, it would seem to me that placing flyers on a windshield is a violation of several laws. It is a trespass upon my personal property. It violates littering laws. And, it is a motor vehicle violation: obstructing the driver's view.

But that is not the question at hand. I see the security cameras in the parking lot of (large chain store). I choose not to shop at that store. It is violating my personal right to privacy. I do not shop at any store that stops me on the way out, from the cash register to ask for my sales receipt. My one and only purchase at (large chain store), a person at the exit asked if I had a receipt. I replied that I did. As I passed her, she asked again. I replied, again, that I did. As I exited she asked 'May I see it?' I did not reply, and returned to my car. Yes, I know. "It keeps the prices down." Thanks, but I'll buy from stores that are nicer.

Does this mean that I should archive my cache in their parking lot? :D

If you didn't get permission to place the cache, then yes, you should archive it.

 

TheFreshwaterAnglers

Link to comment

Sounds to me like Wal-Mart doesn't want us there. And ya know what? That's just fine with me! Wal-Mart stores are not a good thing anyway. No sir, they are like a huge vaccum just sucking away. Wanna know what it is they are sucking, well I'm gonna tell ya!!!!! THE MONEY RIGHT OUT OF YOUR COMMUNITY!!!!! Because of them many ma and pa stores are gone! Once they have pushed out all the competitors than they up their prices while claiming to be rolling back prices!!!

Boycot them all!!!!! And for pete's sakes don't let them into your town. Fight against it by attending the public hearings.

Link to comment
Sounds to me like Wal-Mart doesn't want us there. And ya know what? That's just fine with me! Wal-Mart stores are not a good thing anyway. No sir, they are like a huge vaccum just sucking away. Wanna know what it is they are sucking, well I'm gonna tell ya!!!!! THE MONEY RIGHT OUT OF YOUR COMMUNITY!!!!! Because of them many ma and pa stores are gone! Once they have pushed out all the competitors than they up their prices while claiming to be rolling back prices!!!

Boycot them all!!!!! And for pete's sakes don't let them into your town. Fight against it by attending the public hearings.

:D:D:D:D

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Followers 3
×
×
  • Create New...