Need Some Help

[+Harry Dolphin]

Posted on the Benchmark contest, but no opinions were forthcoming.

We went searching for KV5335 and KV5336. KV3556 is a daybeacon, KV5335 is a navigation light. Both were first obverved in 1930 by CGS, and found in 1984 by NGS.

They are identical, though the decriptions are very different. The description for KV5335 seems appropriate. I cannot make heads nor tails out of the description for KV5336. If both were found in 1984 by NGS, the only solutiuon that I can come up with is that both are more recent than that?

Opinions, please.

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

KV5335 "THE STATION IS THE LIGHT APEX"

 

KV5336 "THE STATION IS THE CENTER OF THE TARGET"

 

One is the light at the top of the structure and the other is a black round object on the top of the structure.

 

surmounting = on top of, in this case.

 

John

[mapjunkie]

Okay, I may be completely wrong here, but the descrip for KV5335 says "THE OUTER END OF THE W BREAKWATER" and the descrip for KV5336 says "THE OUTER END OF THE E BREAKWATER" - one is west and one is east. Both Google Earth and USAPhotomaps appear to show structures on both sides of the entrance to Cheesequake Cr. - USAPhotomaps pic is a bit more obvious. The descriptions of the light and iron target are so different that they surely (HAH!) are different physical objects.

 

I suppose that's enough long-distance speculation - do you think this is likely?

 

-Matt

[Bill93]

If the description doesn't fit, then it probably isn't the same object being described. Do either of them look 75 years old? I'm not familiar with coastal markers to be able to judge that.

 

These have ADJUSTED horizontal coordinates, so they are very precisely located. You can compare their distance apart by coordinates versus a map. Can you get closer at low tide on a nice day?

[holograph]

Here's one of NJ's high resolution orthophotos from 2002. I accurately marked the adjusted coordinates of each station (accurate to within 1 foot).

 

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

My limited experienc with navigation aids used as benchmarks is that the coast guard changes them much more frequently than the NGS.

 

Check the 2005 Lights list from the Coast Guard: 2005 Lights List. It gives a description of a few words (eg "skeleton tower") plus a rough location. Plus it will tell you if it's a light or a day beacon (no light - for use in the daytime).

 

My guess from the description is that there are (were) two things at two different locations. Holograph's picture is very convincing. There was a breakwater with a navigation aid on the other side of that inlet.

 

I also agree that 75 years is a long time for anything to last in sea water. The 1985 recoveries may have been in error - the original stations may have been long gone by then. You can't tell if they just went down and checked them visually, of if they made accurate readings and actually triangulated them. Who knows, even the NGS can make mistakes. You can also check if the 2005 lights list has the same aide(s) listed as the 1985 lights list referred to in that recovery.

[+Harry Dolphin]

After consulting the Coast Guard 2005 Light Lists, I find the following information:

Cheesequake Creek

36415 - LIGHT 1 40 27 55 N 74 15 23 W Fl G 4s 26 4 SG on skeleton tower.

36420 - LIGHT 2 40 27 56 N 74 15 26 W Fl R 4s 28 5 TR on skeleton tower. Higher intensity beam toward Red Bank Reach.

There are two breakwaters, one on either side of Cheesequake Creek. The lights in question are at the ends of the breakwaters. The coordinates seem to agree with the posted benchmarks. The east breakwater seems, frequently, to be impassable. I love Google Earth for viewing such objects!

I am not sure what 'SG' and 'TR' mean.

The 1985 recovery for KV5335 refers to 'PUBLISHED IN COAST GUARD LIGHT LIST AS LIGHT NO. 1716.' The Coast Guard 2005 Light Lists refers to it as '36415 -Light 1'.

KV5336 is a 'daybeacon', which as Papa-Bear-NYC informs me, means 'day beacon (no light - for use in the daytime).' 36420 - Light 2 is a TR on skeleton tower. Higher intensity beam toward Red Bank Reach. That does not sound like a 'daybeacon'.

Oh, well. It would seem that KV5335 and KV5336 have been replaced since 1985. Unfortunately, I am unable to locate any earlier Coast Guard Light Lists than 2005.

[+Klemmer]

Dredging up (pun intended) my memory of a USCG boating course TBM & I took about 10 years go, and as many years of Pacific Ocean boating & sailing:

TR = Triangle Red

SG = Square Green

 

Both shape and color are significant to safe navigation. Triangles always red, Squares always green. Color meaning same as for channel bouys.

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

The simple rule for the color of navigation aides is

 

"Red - Right - Return"

 

This means the red beacon/light/buoy etc is on your right as you return to port. Looking at Holographs picture it would mean KV5335 is the red one.

 

The other thing about the lights list and the numbering of beacons/buoys etc. is that they will frequently change the numbering of the aide but not physically change the item. For example the lights on the East River must have been renumbered at some point in the last 20 years. The NGS has things like "Mill Rock Southerly Light 18" whereas now it's light #14 (I'm not sure those are the actual numbers but you get the idea). I'm quite sure that the structure is the same as in 1985. The renumbering may simply mean a bouy has been added or removed downstream on the river.

 

So the fact that the number on the 1985 lights list differs from the number on the 2005 list, does not imply that the physical item has been replaced. However if the NGS datasheet specifies that the item was first documented in the 1930s, then it's highly likely that the item has been replaced.

 

Incidently, it was sometime around 1985 when they replaced the old "Beacons" which were described as having tank houses (for oil? Kerosene?) with "Lights" which are electric. In the case of the East River, the NGS put in new stations, but left the old ones in there as well. These old ones are clearly destroyed in the sense as an intersection station, as well as physically removed.

 

The other thing is that these things (probably) have next to no utility to the surveying community, but it's fun for us, don't you think!