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Nevada Geocoin Update :(


ou8alizzard

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Well folks, it seems we have run into a bit of a snag. It seems that PayPal

has invoked a policy concerning the geocoin preorders. Although there is a

clause in their terms of use that would have allowed this, the folks at

PayPal have delayed and postponed the process to make it impossible to make

this work.

 

We will be asking PayPal to refund all monies and will pursue a different

approach to get these coins manufactured and delivered.

 

Our apologies for the inconveniences this may have caused.

this is a copy of the email paypal sent us

 

We're sorry, but your account access limitation cannot be lifted at this

time. We need more information about your account before we can restore

full access to your account. Please complete the steps below so that we may

review your account further:

 

You may not use PayPal to sell "pre-sale" items. Pre-sale items are items

advertised for sale before the seller has control or possession of the

items. These generally consist of items that are sold prior to the item's

availability to the general public, or that are sold by the seller with the

intention of using the payment to go out and purchase the item being sold.

 

PayPal does permit pre-sales on a limited basis, as long as the seller

guarantees and reasonably expects that the item will be shipped within 20

days from the date of purchase, and that he clearly informs the buyer that

the item is a pre-sale item.

 

Because you have not or will not ship the item within the 20 day timeframe,

you must agree to refund your buyers. PayPal will waive all PayPal fees

involved with this transaction.

 

If you are faxing information, you must use the cover page provided by

PayPal. The cover page contains information specific to you and using it

ensures that your documents are routed and handled in a timely manner. To

print the cover page, log into your account and click on the fax documents

link on the "Limited Account Access Details" page.

 

Sincerely,

Steven

PayPal Account Review Department

 

we are working with some folks to do our pre orders for us and will post a link as soon as we have it set up again we are sorry for any inconveniences this may have caused.

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PayPal does permit pre-sales on a limited basis, as long as the seller

guarantees and reasonably expects that the item will be shipped within 20

days from the date of purchase, and that he clearly informs the buyer that

the item is a pre-sale item.

 

So IT IS ok according to this paragraph.

 

I think something else may have happened because according to this it is ok. I did not have a problem with paypal and plan on using them ALOT in January for some coins I am having made.

 

Do not jump the gun here.

Edited by Ladycacher & Boys
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I think the problem is deeper. Somebody complained, it is a new account, etc. I have had my paypal account for years and years. I have also pre-sold 3 different coins without a problem.

yes from what i was was told you are lucky all it will take is for them to find out you are doing presales and using the money to have the coins made and they will throw a fit..

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PayPal does permit pre-sales on a limited basis, as long as the seller

guarantees and reasonably expects that the item will be shipped within 20

days from the date of purchase, and that he clearly informs the buyer that

the item is a pre-sale item.

 

So IT IS ok according to this paragraph.

 

I think something else may have happened because according to this it is ok. I did not have a problem with paypal and plan on using them ALOT in January for some coins I am having made.

 

Do not jump the gun here.

please see above post

 

Although there is a

clause in their terms of use that would have allowed this, the folks at

PayPal have delayed and postponed the process to make it impossible to make

this work.

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We had some of the same problem with paypal with the girl scout cookies, our family lives all over the place and my daughter called them and sold the cookies.

We had them paypal the $$$ to us, it is just easier. It was during the pre-sales of cookies and paypal shut us down, hard and fast. Even though I told them this was family and a few friends and they knew the cookies were pre-sales. No Luck. So I just "resold" the cookies when they came in and had them paypal for them. Oh well, lesson learned.

I never have found out how they knew what we were doing.....

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For some coins from prepayment to delivery is taking 2 months. That is almost 3 times what paypal says should be allowed. One coin I pre-paid for several weeks ago still has not gone to the minters:( I've ordered coins from the cachingplace thinking coins should be in stock(It is a store) and still waited 6 weeks +. Now I am paying in advance for shops to mint their coins??

I have to admit I am getting a little discouraged about all the pre-payments. If you told me the coin was already at the minters and scheduled to arrive within 2 weeks then that might be another story.

But if this has happened to one group/person it will happen again and noone is paying any interest on these funds.

what to do what to do????

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That's specifically why I would pay for everything up front myself, and then take payment afterwards. There is nothing wrong with doing a pre-order thread so that you can get an accurate minting count, but I don't think you should start taking in money until the coin has been fully paid for, the dies manufatured and an estimated ship date has been given. Just my opinion for good business practice. Even then, you could have problems. Best to just wait until you have the coins in hand before you start taking payment.

 

--Marky

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I tend to agree with that Marky. If you can't afford to make a coin, then make a wooden nickel or something else. I know the coins have become an addiction and have recently been an easy way to make quite abit of money and have some free coins for yourself.

 

Maybe it will slow down the coin craze a little bit.

 

I will be funding our coin myself if we make it. (very likely it will be made soon)

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Here's the otherthing about the paypal pre-sale policy:

 

'Sellers wishing to take advantage of PayPal's Seller Protection Policy must send within 7 days of the sale as well as comply with the other terms of that Policy.'

 

In other words, even if you take payment up to 20 days before shipping, if you dont ship within 7 days you will not be covered if someone denies the transaction and wants a refund.

 

Tigger

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Paypal is just conforming to an existing eBay policy that was put into effect several years ago. There is a limit to tha amount of time between the expected shipping of the product and how far in advance go can pre-sell the item on eBay.

 

eBay initiated this policy years ago in response to specific problem that were occuring at the time. I know, because I pre-ordered a product on ebay from a vendor, they pre-paid a distributor, a then 3 months later the distributor's allocation was cut... the money was gone, as was the product.. so I was out $900. Many people lost considerably more.

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They're trying to keep fraud down. In a world where people don't know each other, what happens is that some people set up as sellers of mechandise without actually having any inventory. They'll advertise, say, a TV and then when it sells, they collect the money and then rush out to actually purchase it and then ship it. There are lots of ways that sort of thing can go wrong and the people who do it are generally a problem for paypal (and ebay), compared to "in stock" sellers.

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I wonder how much different this is compared to buying a ticket for a sporting event that is held in March, like the NCAA final four.

The only difference is that you receive the ticket right away, but for the coins you have to wait even 2 months.

I guess we could sell tickets for the coins, then when we receive the paypal payment, reply with a "ticket", with coin to be delivered in the future.

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I wonder how much different this is compared to buying a ticket for a sporting event that is held in March, like the NCAA final four.

The only difference is that you receive the ticket right away, but for the coins you have to wait even 2 months.

I guess we could sell tickets for the coins, then when we receive the paypal payment, reply with a "ticket", with coin to be delivered in the future.

I don't think that would work. I guess the best bet would be not to mention the words "presale" or "preorder" anywhere, so that Paypal thinks the payments are for coins already minted. But then somebody can always complain to Paypal that he paid for something and still didn't get it. And that's probably what happned in this case.

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I wonder how much different this is compared to buying a ticket for a sporting event that is held in March, like the NCAA final four.

The only difference is that you receive the ticket right away, but for the coins you have to wait even 2 months.

I guess we could sell tickets for the coins, then when we receive the paypal payment, reply with a "ticket", with coin to be delivered in the future.

I don't think that would work. I guess the best bet would be not to mention the words "presale" or "preorder" anywhere, so that Paypal thinks the payments are for coins already minted. But then somebody can always complain to Paypal that he paid for something and still didn't get it. And that's probably what happned in this case.

I would be very careful with Paypal. I opened my account back in 2000. When they starting paying interest, cant remember if it was 2000 or 2001, I moved a few hundred dollars over.

 

After about two weeks, needed to pay rent, etc, I tried to move the money back. Paypal told me it was fraud and they were going to keep my money! Aggh. Even after many calls and emails, they wouldnt budge. I called the FTC and complained to them. Finally, got all my money back.

 

Yes, I still use them. This is something I didn’t even know about and glad someone brought it up.

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I'm not taking sides. Also I am very thankful of ou8alizzard for the great job he did placing the activated Delaware geocoin into a cache in Nevada. Nothing negative is even implied toward him.

 

But look at the facts. I checked my spread sheet of coins I ordered that had the order date. Some of the delivery dates I didnt write down so maybe some are off by a week. Total time from paying to coin in hand

 

Iowa 2 weeks

NC, UK, GOWT, Ga 5 weeks

Delaware 6 weeks

Wisc 7 weeks

Holiday coin, Maine 8 weeks

NY 12 weeks

Alabama 12 weeks and counting

 

For the Delaware coin orders were only taken after we had GC.com bless the design and tracking numbers paid for and were ready to have the coin made. I thing most coin producers did the same. Say 5-7 weeks is the norm. Both NY and Alabama ran into problems so they may not be typical.

 

I ordered the Nevada coin 11/8 and dont remember the details, but seem to recall that the coin would not be ready for 3 months (my memory--could be wrong) which seemed like a long time. Didnt stop me from ordering it though.

 

Lets get out all the facts before we rag on Paypal. Maybe they thought they were protecting the buyers.

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So, about the Nevada coins.... If we have already paid, will we be first on the list when the coin is eventually ready? I still want the coin, and it seems like a fair expectation...

 

Chrisgun

Yea, what he said.

 

Do you have a list of those that already ordered? I will send money some other way if I need to. I just want the coins.

 

How does PayPal give back the money?

 

Enjoy

Edited by rojeel
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I too would prefer to have the coins that I ordered on behalf of the UKCC in fact with our growing membership would probably order more and send you another form of payment. Too bad that you cannot do what connecticut did and a group of you pay to get them made and sell after they have been shipped to you or have arrived. I hope you are able to resolve this problem as having been through Nevada a couple of times (before caching) I really would like to have had your coin.

 

Lynn

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So, about the Nevada coins.... If we have already paid, will we be first on the list when the coin is eventually ready? I still want the coin, and it seems like a fair expectation...

 

Chrisgun

Yea, what he said.

 

Do you have a list of those that already ordered? I will send money some other way if I need to. I just want the coins.

 

How does PayPal give back the money?

 

Enjoy

as a credit to the buyers paypal account, the buyer can use the funds elsewhere on paypal transactions or send it back to a credit card or bank account as a credit.

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So, about the Nevada coins.... If we have already paid, will we be first on the list when the coin is eventually ready? I still want the coin, and it seems like a fair expectation...

 

Chrisgun

I too wonder this.

 

Do you have a list of those that pre-paid and will you send us an email so that we can pay you in a different manner so that we can still get the coins we ordered?

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For those who say if you don't have the many to pay for the coin up front. I didn't have over 6,000 to pay for the Kansas coins! Certain companys make you pay before they will produce the coin, and with that being said alot of people don't have 5-10,000 in their bank account. I would not want to use my own money anyway to buy a bunch of coins then something happen and I am stuck with them and my money gone because the fad is over of whatever.

 

Out of all the coins that have been sold this is one case. Will more happen? Maybe...but I still plan on doing pre-orders through them until they say something and not freak out and go into a panic about not using them.

 

I know one of the coin companys is talking about setting up pre-payment on their website where you pay with credit card and skip paypal all togather. I think that would be best. To bad paypal is having a hard time dealing with this because they stand to lose alot of money.

 

How does paypal know these are pre-sales anyway? Somebody telling? ;)

 

I will make my orders as "Coins in Hand, but will ship 1 month from now". :D

Edited by Ladycacher & Boys
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I would not want to use my own money anyway to buy a bunch of coins then something happen and I am stuck with them and my money gone because the fad is over of whatever.

Then you probably shouldn't take the production and sale of the coin on yourself. It's just a normal business risk you're either willing to take or not.

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I would not want to use my own money anyway to buy a bunch of coins then something happen and I am stuck with them and my money gone because the fad is over of whatever. 

Then you probably shouldn't take the production and sale of the coin on yourself. It's just a normal business risk you're either willing to take or not.

Really? So how will coins get made them if "people like me" don't do it?

 

Let's take a poll shall we. Who had to pre-order and what coin was it? And lets include all the personal coins as-well since I know most would not be made if I and others did not pre-pay.

 

Kansas - Pre-order by a person, one person (not group or business)

Ladycacher (paid for myself but now am selling)

Boys of Ladycacher

 

Coins I know of......

 

New mexico

Columbia

Oklahoma

 

 

Let me ask you this since you judge me.

Should the rules change where the coins must be paid for by the creator/maker and in hand BEFORE you sell them to collectors? Seems to me if we did that, there would not be much to collect would there?

Edited by Ladycacher & Boys
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Sorry ladycacher but prior to late September/early October this was the case. You either had the coins in hand to sell or trade or you didn't. Since early October I have pre-paid for 60 coins. Prior to that I bought what was available. Trading was minimal since I did not have my own personal coin and most of those who do have their own personal coins paid for them out of their own pocket. If a state club wants to put out a state coin or a group wants to put out a commemorative coin for an event they put the moneyu up front and make it then sell it.

The pre-order was a good idea to give people an idea of how many to get minted, that there was a market for but pre-order pre-pay has gotten out of hand.

 

My opinion and I am sticking to it!

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Oh, hell, just sell a coupon redeemable for a free geocoin or a discount of up to 100.00 on a single geocoin.  Then use the money you make from selling the cupons to buy the coin.  The cupon itself will be worded to where that’s what you are buying and nothing more.  Then we do business as usual.

Interesting concept, RK. That just might work.

 

Alternatively, a coin producer could pull the money from a personal bank account or draw a margin loan on a brokerage account to pay the coin mint up front as required. Then 0.5-1.0%/month between mint payment and coin receipt could be added to the cost of the coin to make up for the interest lost/margin loan expense. Once the coins are received, the final price could be set. If it takes 8-12 weeks to get a coin (this is on the long side), the average cost of a $7 coin would go up only about 7 to 21 cents and the cachers who front the money are kept financially whole.

 

The $16,000 2005 Alaska geocoin project was financed through both prepays and personal payments. I prepaid the mint when placing the order and then took prepays via PayPal, so I was partially out of pocket for just a few weeks at a time. I know some groups/individuals are taking preorder funds before the coins are actually ordered, so this adds to the length of time before payment and receipt of a coin.

 

I do empathize with the people who don't have the financial resources to finance a coin project out of pocket. I hope the geocaching community will be able to work out something which works for everybody. In my opinion, the most valuable resource is a person who has the motivation to establish a design, work with the mint, and package up and mail hundreds or thousands of coins.

Edited by Ladybug Kids
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Oh, hell, just sell a coupon redeemable for a free geocoin or a discount of up to 100.00 on a single geocoin. Then use the money you make from selling the cupons to buy the coin. The cupon itself will be worded to where that’s what you are buying and nothing more. Then we do business as usual.

This is the right idea. There are so many ways to skin this cat.

 

I suspect that PayPal is only going to care if there is a problem. I was getting a little nervous about my Maine's (They showed up a couple of days ago.), but really to the point of doing anything about it.

 

My coin maker (Quality Lapel Pins) turns the coins in 3 weeks, (even over Thanksgiving). I have my envelopes ready to go, so that in a day or two I can mail all the coins.

 

From the first receipt of money until the coins are shipped no more than 4 weeks.

 

The other thing that can really help is to provide updated information on the coin status. E-Mail or on a web site. Takes only a little more time and is only fair when you are dealing with someone elses money.

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Just sell a coin "BOND". ;)

 

Don't cream me if I'm wrong, because my real knowledge of Wall Street is about equal to my knowledge of Ancient Civilizations of the Zimbooboo Tribe of South America!

 

But isn't that how a lot of businesses raise capital to finance a new venture or expansion of an existing company! :D

 

I see it like playing the market(if I did), your paying money to purchase something with expectations to see a return.

In this instance, I'd place my $$$ on a prepaid GeoCoin anyday! :D

 

D-man :P

Edited by gridlox
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Good grief it hasn't even been that long though. We are still forever waiting on the Alabama coins to come. I could see complaining about that one.

Complain to paypal? Getting complains about things they have limited effect over is exactly why they have this no pre-sale, 20 days and ship policy. ;)

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I would not want to use my own money anyway to buy a bunch of coins then something happen and I am stuck with them and my money gone because the fad is over of whatever. 

Then you probably shouldn't take the production and sale of the coin on yourself. It's just a normal business risk you're either willing to take or not.

Really? So how will coins get made them if "people like me" don't do it?

 

Let's take a poll shall we. Who had to pre-order and what coin was it? And lets include all the personal coins as-well since I know most would not be made if I and others did not pre-pay.

I think it might be helpful to take a somewhat related poll.

If you knew for certain a groups coin would not sell out its Maybe one or two thousand coins in 'pre-sale' so you would be able to buy them directly, would you wait untill they were actually in hand? Yes you would wait or No you would prepay anyway.

 

I think a number of people buy in the pre-sale because there is in effect no sale(-sale?). The coins are spoken for in what? 1-2 week, sometimes less. Waiting means they either don't get the coin, have to hunt their down a dozen traders to find what they want, or pay like 3x what it orginally cost on ebay.

 

Let me ask you this since you judge me. 

Should the rules change where the coins must be paid for by the creator/maker and in hand BEFORE you sell them to collectors?  Seems to me if we did that, there would not be much to collect would there?

I try not to judge you. You geocache, your one of my favorite people ;)

I've never made a coin, and really I don't know that I want to with the $$$ required, and the 400 people all bugging you to know when they'll get their dadgum coins, but im getting off track. Coins are a 'community' thing, If noone spearheads a coin it won't happen. And if the people buying the coin think they're being abused threw excessive wait times for something they've already paid for, maybe they'll stop buying coins or change how/when/where they buy them. And that would be bad too, because it would cause that fad crash you're concerned about.

 

I was think about how some (of the few) coins I've bought were done. It seems to me that the UK and EU coins took names and quanties in advance to gauge the run, but didn't actually request payment till much closer to the production? and shipping. Of course this definently has people that end up not paying requested, but their always seems to be backup/reserve lists. I wonder if doing it that way would be close enough not to violate paypals limit? Especially if its not glaringly obvious that they're making fees off something that isn't quite real yet, since that seems to bother them quite a bit. Or maybe we could all just switch to another way of transfering money and stop using paypal?? :D

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