Is This For Real?

[+reveritt]

Hey British cousins,

 

Is this for real?

[+*bingoboy*]

do you ever get the feeling you are being watched?

[+walkergeoff and wife]

This frightens me. A couple of years ago I got a letter from the authorities saying my car had been seen on the M11 at a particular time - its numberplate had been recognised, I was told, by an experimental system. Trouble was, they got it wrong. Through my local MP I got an apology, and, so he was told, the practice was stopped.

Looks like it hadn't!!!

 

The danger of this cannot be overstated. Imagine a crime, or hit and run, and the victim describes a car like yours - how would you prove that you had not been there?

 

Looks like another email to my MP is in order.

[NickPick]

I wonder why the camera sites need to be "monitored by global positioning satellites". Surely they'll be fixed cameras which they should know the locations of!

 

Next thing they'll announce is that if your car gets spotted on a second camera sooner than you should be able to get there without speeding, you'll get an automatic speeding fine!

 

The cynical side of me says "But it's a proposed government IT project - it'll never work properly, will cost 10 times more than expected and hopefully get shelved before it gets completed"

[+Moote]

I worked for a company that setup the Ring of Steel around London, they have been monitoring cars there for years. It's all British technology as are most high volume monitoring solutions. They can even monitor your face against a known criminals and it sets off an alarm when a suspect enters an area.

Edited December 22, 2005 by Moote

[+walkergeoff and wife]

Deleted on second thoughts!

Edited December 22, 2005 by walkergeoff

[+Alibags]

Hmm, scary.

 

The RAC traffic system works in a similar way. It uses a system of cameras to monitor individual car movements to see how fast they are going and thus to make judgements about congestion. The info is not stored long term and cannot be used for traffic prosecutions because the standard of calibartion, etc required for proof is too high for their systems. And besides it's not what they are there for. However, it goes to show that the technology is pretty much in place already.

[Nediam]

There are cameras which record all the cars that come into and out of a town or city. They are used to spot known criminals and Road Tax dodgers. - Good Idea!

 

There was also talk of abolishing the Road Tax system as it stands and fitting all cars with a GPS transponder thingy, which would enable all vehicle movements to be tracked, this would then enable "the powers that be" to send out a bill for how much road use you have had. - Very Bad Idea

[+HazelS]

The Independent is usually a good paper (as far as journalists go!) and I was surprised by this!

 

I wonder just how workable and accurate it will be - for all the reasons mentioned above.

 

[+Jonovich]

Add to this the proposed pay as you go car insurance scheme from Norwich Union that uses a GPSr to record movement of your vehicle for billing purposes and you definately are being tracked wherever you go! Scarey stuff and if you object you get the old statement that if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear!

 

You can also now see why they have cracked down on vehicle license plate suppliers!

 

Be afraid, be very afraid!

 

J

[+kewfriend]

INTERESTING and probably true.

 

Oddly enough I dont think it matters. I used to worry about the fact that this country seems to drift ever closer towards a police state on the lines of the old GDR. Now I view it as a government employment programme.

 

Actually I would love it if untaxed and uninsured cars were taken off the road and that camera technology aided that. But it wont. Those that dont tax or insure their car never re-identify themselves to the DVLA and of course the criminal fraternity either clones a plate or changes a couple of digits. So basically its a complete waste of time and money - but hey - it gives jobs to the unemployable.

 

Of course, our only examples of home grown Islamic bombers used public transport, so the argument that it all aids 'security' seems rather specious.

 

But it does allow some interesting ideas on logging TBs on the move ...

[+Kitty Hawk]

If you look at your tax disc, it now has a bar code.

 

'They' can read this (that speed gun he's holding may not be reading your speed) and instantly tell if you are taxed, MOT'd and insured.

 

I would say this is a good thing.

 

There is already (I think it's called) SPECs - which reads your numberplate in two places and determines your average speed between the two points.

 

This is something that I don't like, but then I could make sure I never speed.

[+Haggis Hunter]

Next thing they'll announce is that if your car gets spotted on a second camera sooner than you should be able to get there without speeding, you'll get an automatic speeding fine!

What do you mean next thing, they already do it, signs warn you that you are being recorded over a set area, and you may be fined if your speed is over the average for that distance.

 

None of this surprises me at all, they already have vehicle plate recognition & face feature recognition cameras. If it is all outside and not in my home then I'm not going to worry.

 

We as cachers already give information, if you have an accident in your car, and your GPS or your in car sat nav is on, the police can confiscate it if they believe the information will help in their investigation, such as the speed you were travelling at on impact. Your GPS will give them that info, hence why I have mine off as much as possible whilst in the car.

 

There is also nothing to say that your data from your GPS isn't being relayed back to the sattelites, a bit George Orwell I know, but he wasn't wrong was he?

[+Jonovich]

If you look at your tax disc, it now has a bar code.

 

'They' can read this (that speed gun he's holding may not be reading your speed) and instantly tell if you are taxed, MOT'd and insured.

Actually they can't read the barcode, certainly not when the vehicle is moving... They read your number plate - this is then cross referenced back to DVLA databases and the database indicates if tax/insurance is valid.

 

A colleague who is employed by the police explained that alot of the patrol cars now have an automatic camera system installed. It reads all number plates it can see and checks them for tax/insurace. If they are not covered it brings it to the attention of police car driver and also automatically issues a ticket so often the first you know about it is when you get a bill or summons drop through your letter box!

 

J

[+Kryten]

This proposal is based on an idea from Norwich Union who wanted to insure people based on the risk associated with their actual car usage. The idea was that people who drive in locations and at times of day that are more risky pay higher insurance. They abandoned it after an initial experiment because the vehicle tracking technology wasn't even close to being up to the job.

[+Moote]

Just remembered; the chaps who were arrested for the recent murder of the police woman in Bradford, were tracked out of the City and down the M1 to London

[+Mr'D]

Fake plates are the answer...

 

[+Simply Paul]

The 'average speed speeding' use for these cameras is being trailed with some similar ones in Scotland at the moment. I can see it going national in a couple of years, as 'traditional' speed cameras only deter speeding for those who know where they are, and only catch those who don't. The 'no road tax but a mileage charge' system makes some sense, but it'd be cheaper to just make a tax disc free (still need MOT & Insurance to get one though) and add more tax to petrol. I suspect the system will be used to 'try' to catch banned drivers (who can wear a balaclava - let the system prove the figure in the car is them then!) and other 'dodgy' folks (although who's dodgy and who's not might be up to the government of the day, and not the legal system) as well as the above. Another obvious use is for London style Congestion Charging in other towns and cities. Heaven knows, having paid for your car (and tax on it), road fund licence (the clue's in the name...it's a tax), insurance (and tax on it), petrol (mostly tax) and MOT, *clearly* you should be charged again to drive it on the roads you've already paid for 30 times over. Gurr.

 

SP (You see, it's not just the US government I think are as mad as a Bush)

[+sTeamTraen]

Once MPs work out that it will be used to track down Sir Norman Fry and his ilk, they might think twice... but I think the biggest problem, even if the system appears to basically "work", will be the amount of police time wasted chasing up false positives: a car which visits the same "terrorist" target twice in three days by coincidence having been sold, all the database updates not done because they've been farmed out to minimum-wage subcontractors, etc.

 

A colleague of mine worked for a cable TV company in the UK and told me the horror stories which ensued when the minimum wage slaves packed their jobs in, having spent their last afternoon changing large numbers of customer names from "Mr. Terry Smith" to "Mr. Cupid Stunt" (etc). The technocrats never think about this sort of thing. Nor have they ever read "RISKs Digest" - indispensable for anyone involved in IT or its procurement: see here.

[+Learned Gerbil]

Fake plates are the answer...

 

I was cleaning up the front garden the other day and found an unused (covering plastic still undisturbed and undrilled) set of plates dumped in the folliage. The more I read about all this the more tempting it is to use them!

 

As usual, the law abiding citizen who slips up for a moment will lose out, and the detirmined criminal will get by as usual. Anyone can copy you plates, put them on a car that looks the saame - and it is your problem proving you had not parked illegally and not speeded. Not so much big brother (1984 was about controlling you) and more about making money. I am not normally a "Government is out to get you" type of person but the present mania about cameras and ID cards is so misconcieved. Tecnology is never all of the solution as a good DNF proves.

[+Kitty Hawk]

A mate of mine in Southampton Police bought this web site to my attention - check it out - it's all to do with cloned number plates, some git had got mine !!!!

 

Thankfully due to the picture on the site I have been able to prove it wasn't me........

 

see for yourself.....

 

Username; suggy

Password; virginal

 

Police Camera Database

Edited December 22, 2005 by Kitty Hawk

[+choccymandm]

Anyone can copy you plates, put them on a car that looks the same - and it is your problem proving you had not parked illegally and not speeded.

... which is a huge reason if you every sell a vehicle with a picture ad or post a picture of your vehicle on the net make sure to block out the number plate. It's well known for unscrupulous buggers to trawl the web - Ebay, Autotrader etc looking for vehicles that match their own and copying the plates

 

And while we're on the subject of Big Brother ... ever heard of RF Barcoding?

 

Instead of the standard black line barcodes, your "barcode" is small passive RF transmitter activated by a reader as you leave the shop, the idea being that you do your shopping and as you walk out the shop you are charged for the goods you took without having to queue to pay.

To take it one step further, it would be possible to follow these tags where ever they went - providing you had the RF network so imagine the police being able to "follow" a shoplifter back home and be able to knab them with the stolen goods there and then!

Sound like sci-fi? ... a certain supermarket is testing these out in their depots to stop theft of high value items by members of staff!!

[nobby.nobbs]

This frightens me. A couple of years ago I got a letter from the authorities saying my car had been seen on the M11 at a particular time - its numberplate had been recognised, I was told, by an experimental system. Trouble was, they got it wrong. Through my local MP I got an apology, and, so he was told, the practice was stopped.

Looks like it hadn't!!!

 

The danger of this cannot be overstated. Imagine a crime, or hit and run, and the victim describes a car like yours - how would you prove that you had not been there?

 

Looks like another email to my MP is in order.

ok so i don't fully agree with this practise but you'd be able to prove you were somewhere else as the computer would record your car where it really was!!

 

if this is used properly to catch disqualified drivers, uninsured drivers, tax dodgers and general bad guys etc then i'm all for it. however the cynic in me says that the government will mainly use it to find a way to get more cash from us.

 

your average patrol car has sod all technology in it. your average police man would break it. it's amazing how bored you can get at 3am!

[+Jonovich]

Instead of the standard black line barcodes, your "barcode" is small passive RF transmitter activated by a reader as you leave the shop, the idea being that you do your shopping and as you walk out the shop you are charged for the goods you took without having to queue to pay.

To take it one step further, it would be possible to follow these tags where ever they went - providing you had the RF network so imagine the police being able to "follow" a shoplifter back home and be able to knab them with the stolen goods there and then!

Sound like sci-fi? ... a certain supermarket is testing these out in their depots to stop theft of high value items by members of staff!!   

One question: -

 

What colour is the sky on your planet?

 

J

[+walkergeoff and wife]

ok so i don't fully agree with this practise but you'd be able to prove you were somewhere else as the computer would record your car where it really was!!

 

Would it? That is the whole point! The computer got the location of my car wrong!

[+sTeamTraen]

Imagine a crime, or hit and run,  and the victim describes a car like yours - how would you prove that you had not been there?

This happened to a friend of mine many years ago. Someone had had their very expensive model railway stolen (!) and described "a green Avenger" (no number plate details) driving away.

 

The plods trawled the lists and came up with one green Avenger in the area (this was the mid-80s, most Avengers had fallen apart by then). They went round to my friend's place of work - he was in computers, so probably they thought that fitted with model railways or something - and took him in for a couple of uncomfortable hours of questioning. They didn't arrest him, but they made it clear that they would have done if he hadn't gone voluntarily. He'd been in the job about 6 weeks and it took a long time to clear up the rumours which went round.

 

As a result, probably the most law-abiding person (he's also quite religious) I know, has some quite "unorthodox" views about HM Constabulary!

 

PS: For a hit and run, I think it's less of a problem. The forensic people can find amazingly small bits of evidence if you did hit someone.

Edited December 23, 2005 by sTeamTraen

[+Happy Humphrey]

Going back to the original question: I wish this wasn't for real! Although it will doubtless have its uses, they will probably be balanced out by misuses and mistakes. But the main thing I object to is the invasion of privacy which goes beyond what is strictly necessary.

 

Why do Brits tolerate this sort of thing?

 

HH

[+Happy Humphrey]

sTeamTraen,

My brother had a remarkably similar experience. The plod never apologised, and remained convinced that he had some involvement in an armed robbery - even though he and his car were over 50 miles away at the time (and at work!). In this case, the crooks had obviously stolen a car similar to my brother's then taken his reg plate details to add a fake number plate to their getaway car.

 

HH

[+Moote]

... which is a huge reason if you every sell a vehicle with a picture ad or post a picture of your vehicle on the net make sure to block out the number plate. It's well known for unscrupulous buggers to trawl the web - Ebay, Autotrader etc looking for vehicles that match their own and copying the plates

Actually there is a more convenient source for criminals to get number plates, and it's not even online; on every Towns streets of our country there are cars parked up and most criminals just appear to trawl areas for details, that is one reason why there are identified hot spots for cloned car plates.

 

Milton

[+t.a.folk]

There was also talk of abolishing the Road Tax system as it stands and fitting all cars with a GPS transponder thingy, which would enable all vehicle movements to be tracked,

 

Would it work under trees ?

[markandlynn]

Instead of the standard black line barcodes, your "barcode" is small passive RF transmitter activated by a reader as you leave the shop, the idea being that you do your shopping and as you walk out the shop you are charged for the goods you took without having to queue to pay.

To take it one step further, it would be possible to follow these tags where ever they went - providing you had the RF network so imagine the police being able to "follow" a shoplifter back home and be able to knab them with the stolen goods there and then!

Sound like sci-fi? ... a certain supermarket is testing these out in their depots to stop theft of high value items by members of staff!!   

One question: -

 

What colour is the sky on your planet?

 

J

Blue im afraid

RFID

smiley added to show im saddened by this invasion of privacy

Edited December 23, 2005 by markandlynn

[+klaus23]

... which is a huge reason if you every sell a vehicle with a picture ad or post a picture of your vehicle on the net make sure to block out the number plate. It's well known for unscrupulous buggers to trawl the web - Ebay, Autotrader etc looking for vehicles that match their own and copying the plates

Actually there is a more convenient source for criminals to get number plates, and it's not even online; on every Towns streets of our country there are cars parked up and most criminals just appear to trawl areas for details, that is one reason why there are identified hot spots for cloned car plates.

 

Milton

... which is why blocking out a numberplate when advertising in Auto Trader would mean that you would have to take your numberplates off everytime you go shopping in Tesco's and leave your car outside - just for consistency, you see.

[+Jonovich]

I wasn't doubting that RFID tags exist and what they do... However using them in the manner of the posting is just ludicrous. They will not be trackable back out of the store as they are low power/passive devices with a range of between 1-20ft. Police won't therefore track shop lifters and they are not designed for automatic billing for folks that just walk out the shop with them. Thay were designed for stock tracking in the current supply/demand cut price society we are now in, especially for high value items that are often stolen and so usually bypass the normal checkout stock control systems.

 

Hence the sky is unlikely to be blue on planet "choccy"

 

J

Edited December 23, 2005 by dakar4x4

[+Teasel]

<removed>

Edited December 23, 2005 by Teasel

[+Teasel]

They will not be trackable back out of the store as they are low power/passive devices with a range of between 1-20ft. Police won't therefore track shop lifters

Yes they will because, while it's possible for the till to ask the chips to switch themselves off: i) supermarkets plan not to do this unless the customer specifically demands it and ii) it's a software switch so the chips can be asked to switch themselves back on anyway! The range you quote is correct. So, yes, the police will not be able to track you anywhere you go, but each time you go through a shop door, that will be registered, along with a list of anything you're carrying.

 

Personally, I'm less worried about a police state tham I am appalled about the "personal marketing" implications that are being considered. Eg the scanner in Debenhams sees that you've got a pack of Tesco baby wipes in your bag and automatically changes the advert on the nearby display panel to highlight a special offer in childrenswear.

 

and they are not designed for automatic billing for folks that just walk out the shop with them.

Oh yes they are! And the trial system that was demoed at last year's Waitrose AGM was pretty impressive. Tesco and Walmart have been setting RFID targets to their suppliers for years, but the high expense, coupled with fluctuating standards as manufacturers try to iron out performance problems (try scanning a chip through 2 feet of water!), has meant that rollout is running well behind schedule and it's only currently being implemented on big ticket items and in warehouses.

[barryhunter]

... They will not be trackable back out of the store as they are low power/passive devices with a range of between 1-20ft. Police won't therefore track shop lifters ....

 

whats to stop receivers being put in rows of bollards on the street? Coupled with other shops, they could track movements around a shop center for example. Taking it a step further it could be on bus doors, train stations. With enough receivers its all possible...

 

Even read somewhere someone had limited success with a scanner (I think the target application was customs control) to scan items in a car, probably with scanners mounted high up so scan though the windows.

 

I too am not too worried about the police use of this info, its what the corperations (and even private individuals) could make use of the info, such as the highly targeted advertising. Could also be used for market research around a store.

 

It's even feasable for theieves to have a portable scanner to spot people walking by with items worth stealing!

[+Jonovich]

but each time you go through a shop door, that will be registered, along with a list of anything you're carrying.

 

So how do they know who I am? They just have a list of RFID codes from any enabled and functioning RFID tags passing a RFID scanning point. Hence I can't see how any automatic billing could occur - who would they bill?

 

To get this onto a Geocaching sort of theme though, I wonder, RFID enabled TB's and scanning caches... would you? Could you?

 

J

Edited December 23, 2005 by dakar4x4

[barryhunter]

So how do they know who I am? They just have a list of RFID codes from any enabled and functioning RFID tags passing a RFID scanning point. Hence I can't see how any automatic billing could occur - who would they bill?

From a smart card or similar you are carrying. I'm assuming this would have to be a sign up service where you apply for the card. If you just walk out without such a 'personal' tag then you would be treated as a shop lifter and using the netword of receivers track you until they catch up with you

[+Jonovich]

From a smart card or similar you are carrying.

 

At what point did Smart cards start getting embedded RFID technology? Or are we back on that planet with Choccy?

 

J

[+choccymandm]

Hence the sky is unlikely to be blue on planet "choccy"

Dakar ... I wish I was making it up! regretably I'm not.

 

At present the majority of products sold have the standard barcodes - a 13 digit number, the EAN number, which is just the individually assigned number for that product. Supermarkets are now moving onto EAN128 - this means that your 13 digit number is now a code for a 128 digit number which can contain even more info about the product. Next step these 13 digit numbers become a code for a 128 digit number which is a code for an even bigger number!?! You then have the possibilty to include a unique serial number for each product - therefore you can track individual products.

 

The next step is RF chip and pin - not sure where the development has got to though - so now you don't need to go a checkout!

 

Tie these two in with the camera systems, which have already been installed in a certain supermarket to monitor customers at the checkout, and you have the system for automatic payment/prouct tracking.

 

I could go on but i) I'm beginning to bore myself ii) giving away to many company secrets! iii) can't be bothered! It is shocking and unbelievable what can be done to monitor what we do, what we buy and where we go. 10 years ago would you have believed it if I'd said they were installing traffic cameras across the country ... naaa I'd have been accused of being on another planet!

 

... and the sky was a beautiful deep red tonight ... an excellent sunset!!

[+Teasel]

From a smart card or similar you are carrying.

 

At what point did Smart cards start getting embedded RFID technology? Or are we back on that planet with Choccy?

At the point (in the future) when item-level RFID tagging is introduced! There's currently no point in embedding them in store cards; but they're certainly in the current testbed implementations. My guess is that the initial shop floor rollouts will require supermarket customers to physically insert a chip/pin style store card, and make them separate out awkward lines (wines from small producers who barely even know what a barcode is let alone a chip; loose veg; service counters etc). But once RFID penetration is 100%, checkout-free shops are a real possibility.

 

Yeah, sure, it's all blue skies stuff right now, but I've seen some impressive demos. All that's needed is for the chips to become cheaper and the scanners more accurate. Give it a decade or two and we'll all be living on planet Choccy!

 

To get this onto a Geocaching sort of theme though, I wonder, RFID enabled TB's and scanning caches... would you? Could you?

We don't carry barcode readers, so why would ordinary citizens want to carry RFID readers? What's the killer app? I doubt it'd be geocaching, but stick a RFID reader in a mobile phone and couple it with the ability to look up product information on anything you find in any shop and I think it could catch on...

[+Learned Gerbil]

One mustn't forget that all this technology depends on human intellegence - which is sorly lacking in the average retail store.

 

Only today I got over £20 knocked off a £60 bill at Tesco because I noticed that I had been over cherged for the most expensive item. Went to customer services and 20 seconds later "I took advantage of their "We overcharge - you get it free policy".

 

All they had done was forget to properly indicate prices on a display of houshold items.

[+Haggis Hunter]

Tie these two in with the camera systems, which have already been installed in a certain supermarket to monitor customers at the checkout, and you have the system for automatic payment/prouct tracking.

That certain supermarket is Tesco's. They have a camera system that knows exactly how many people are in the shop, which is actually fantastic for health and safety reasons, but at the moment it is used to assess how many checkout operators will be required in the next 15 to 30 minutes, it alerts the supervisors on how many tills need to be opened, or closed so that you never have any more than 1 or 2 people in front of you.

With the exception of Christmas, where all the tills are usually open, I have got to say I have never had any more than 1 or 2 people in front of me at Tesco's.

[nobby.nobbs]

like any technology it will have benefits for us and can be abused by others. the limit is going to be cost and how much they are willing to pay to gather this info. it'll need to be very accurate for them to dispose of all checkout people who they employ at cheap wages and don't suddenly stop working because they have a funny five mins!

 

people gettting arrested because a car was seen like theirs near a crime. ok not pleasant but to be fair how else do the police get the information? if there was only one of that type of car in the locality then isn't it fair to assume that he might have been the offender? not like he was keptin for a few days.

 

and as regards the hit and run scenario. the computer may have identified your car near the scene or as being the offending vehicle but it would also have recorded you somewhere else as well. hence an alibi and reasonable doubt. they'd also be able to follow where the offending car had gone to. then just go to that location and see what's there. hence the wider the camera network the quicker the bad guys get caught.

 

i'm assuming no one who's against these chips ever uses a loyalty card or store card? or the same credit card when they shop? as they already know your shopping habits if you do. what do i care if they want to offer me a discount on something they think i might want to buy. feel free.

[+Learned Gerbil]

Re - Tesco - I have noticed that our local supertore is bisier than ever these days, but there are never queues at the checkout - I can remember fights in the queues at Chritmas ten years ago. Now the carpark is full long before the queues form.

[+Haggis Hunter]

i'm assuming no one who's against these chips ever uses a loyalty card or store card? or the same credit card when they shop? as they already know your shopping habits if you do. what do i care if they want to offer me a discount on something they think i might want to buy. feel free.

A rather well off bloke was found guilty of theft after finding a rolex in a supermarket, Tesco's again I believe. He kept it and gave it to his wife, a couple of years later he took it to get the battery changed, the jeweller checked the serial number and it came up lost/stolen, the man got arrested for theft, but denied the allegation. They checked his loyalty card account, and it just so happened that he shopped in the exact same shop as the watch was reported lost in, on the exact same day 2 years before hand. The conviction was sealed on that evidence, and the fact he had the watch.

Edited December 24, 2005 by Haggis Hunter

[+Flyfishermanbob]

Hey British cousins,

 

Is this for real?

 

Well ,Reveritt , despite the thread hijack into Tescos' store cameras , I can assure you it is true..... as one who lives in the land of "The Yellow Vultures" ( averaging speed cameras),I can honestly say that the effect is remarkable ...both on the stretch from Kilmarnock to Ayr , and Ayr to Stranrar ..the speed of traffic is appreciably slower....... goodbye "Boy racers" and "I'm a Rep".....

 

Beats speed cameras by miles !.... If this is "Big Brother" then its all for the better

Edited December 24, 2005 by Flyfishermanbob

[nobby.nobbs]

A rather well off bloke was found guilty of theft after finding a rolex in a supermarket, Tesco's again I believe. He kept it and gave it to his wife, a couple of years later he took it to get the battery changed, the jeweller checked the serial number and it came up lost/stolen, the man got arrested for theft, but denied the allegation. They checked his loyalty card account, and it just so happened that he shopped in the exact same shop as the watch was reported lost in, on the exact same day 2 years before hand. The conviction was sealed on that evidence, and the fact he had the watch.

good, serves him right.

 

like i said can't see the downside for me. though i'm sure there is one