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New Rules


tozainamboku

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As you can see, we "Puritans" never allow our womenfolk to cache alone, we provide protection for the entire caching party by bearing rifles and other scary firearms, and we make Granny lag behind and hunt for the cache in the poison ivy, as our young skins are often too sensitive to the devil's oils, while we scout on ahead for the next cache.  And we never post a smiley twice, because this would require the internet, and it just didn't exist in its present form during the 1600's.

 

-Hugh "Puritannical" Jazz

ROTFLMAOWMPASTC!!!!

 

:wacko::(:)

 

Thanks, Hugh. I was feeling somewhat down and I needed a good belly laugh today!

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Thanks for all of your responses. I was happy to see most of you "got" it. Here's a little clarification of what I was trying to do.

 

First of all, I probably shouldn't have titled this "New Rules, to help avoid angst". I'm not really proposing new rules but rather just describing what I think are the current de facto rules. The point of geocaching is to have fun. The idea is that you get the coordinates where a cache is hidden, you go there, and you find the cache. (Notice I don't even require that you use the GPS). There is no requirement to log anything (physical or online) or to trade, in order to have fun; although, these activities are part of the fun for many. I spent a good deal of my original post on rules for posting online logs. The points I was trying to make are: there is no requirement to log anything, there is no "rule" preventing you from logging multiple finds, and the cache owner can delete your online log, if he deems it illegitimate.

 

I was prompted to start this thread because I saw in another thread where a newbie was criticized when she posted that she didn't always log a DNF. I doubt there is much consensus on requiring cachers to log all of their DNFs, yet someone in that thread said something to cause her to think she was breaking the rules. The reference to avoiding angst was a wild hope that if people stopped making up their own rules we could avoid criticizing people and stop calling them cheaters - whether they be a newbie or a high numbers cacher who posted some extra smilies as a way to make light of an unpleasant experience at a cache.

 

I'm sorry if the reference to "purists" offended anyone. My original draft said "anal-rententives" but I figured that might violate the forum guidelines. I thought "purists" would be a pretty neutral term. I put in the "purist" opinion because, even though I think it's an unnecessary extra rule, I sort of agree that this is a good guideline for a newbie who is asking about logging something they are not sure about. I will continue to argue in these forums against the belief that you can compare two cachers by comparing their find counts.

 

I will leave this topic unlocked for another 24 hours or so, for anyone who wants to comment. Don't hold it in, if you know what I mean :blink:

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I have no angst. :blink:

I replied because your post was propagating a fundamental misunderstanding that affects many cachers, even very experienced ones. You have to get several rude emails from geocachers who think travel bugs are trade items before you understand why I am angst free on that particular subject.

There is no disagreement that I can see.

I have no disagreement with agreeing that your summary of the current de facto rules was well done and very tricky :blink:

Are you being serious now ? :blink:

And I have no angst.

 

Caches and the travel bugs belong to the people who place them.

That is the rule.

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Ya know, I don't think we even have to sign a log book. I have always felt that if someone wants to "fib" about finding a cache they are only hurting themselves.

 

I miss virtual caches and am highly upset one of my caches (Neahkahnie Mountain) was archved since folks are still visiting it and loving it as a virtual until I can find a safer spot to hide the cache.

 

This used to be a rather simple straightforward sport. I see it getting more rule bound and complicated and less fun for that very reason.

 

Keep the old rules. New is not always improved. (Remember "New" Coke?!)

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My rules:

 

#1: If you find a cache sign the logbook (and log it online if you'd like).

#2: Play nice.

#3: Be honest and fair.

#4: Have fun.

Reading through the forums it seems like the hardest rule for some is rule #4 :blink:

"Failure is a hard pill to swallow until you realize the only failure you can really have in this sport is the failure to enjoy yourself."

TotemLake 4/26/04

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Caches and the travel bugs belong to the people who place them.

That is the rule.

I have to disagree with this. Placing a cache gives the placer certain responsibilities but no real privilege of ownership. The placer (or adopter) of a cache is called the owner only as a matter of convenience. The owner has the responsibility to maintain the cache. This maintenance includes ensuring the quality of online logs. It also includes disabling the cache if it is unavailable and either archiving it or putting it up for adoption when they no longer want the responsiblities. Travel bug owners have similar responsibilities for their travel bugs.

 

There is no way for a bug owner to enforce that a person who takes the travel moves it according to its goal. There is no way for a cache owner to force people to trade fairly. The cache owner can't force the finder to replace the cache exactly as hidden. The cache owner has no rights if the property owner or land manager removes his cache. He has no rights if the bomb squad blows up his cache. (But he may be held responsible and ordered to pay the cost for removing or blowing up the cache).

 

With regard to your orginal post on whether travel bugs are trade items - I understand the sentiment in the travel bug community to treat travel bug differently, but I don't really care what the travel bug owners/experts think - again I'm stating what I think the de facto situation is. If a geocacher doesn't take a travel bug because they didn't have anything to trade for it there's not much a travel bug owner can do beyond posting that a trade is not required on the travel bug page and expressing their opinions in the forums. Similarly, if a cache owner wants to have a travel bug hotel and require that you leave a travel bug in order to take one, there's not much the bug owner can do except to appeal to the cache to the change the rule. And if a cacher wanted to take bug without leaving one he could probably do that by waiting a few days after logging the find before grabing the bug or just take the bug without logging out of the cache. Still I would be willing to change my rule for travel bugs:

 

4. Hitchikers/Travel Bugs - Some items in the cache may be hitchikers or travel bug. These items want to be taken from cache to cache often with some goal such as visting another city or country. Hitchikers/travel bugs are not treated like ordinary trade item. Travel bug owners want to see their bugs move and to allow this to happen, most cache owners don't care if you take a travel bug with out leaving something or leave a travel bug without taking something. Some cache owners - particularly of some, but not all, travel bug hotels - require a trade for travel bugs; but the travel bug "purists" frown on this and refer to these travel bug hotels as travel bug prisons. If you take a hitchiker/travel bug you should try to move it according to its goal. If the travel bug has an official geocaching.com tracking number you should go to the travel bug page on geocaching.com to log that you took the bug from the cache (you will need the tracking number). When you leave the bug in another cache you should remember to drop it there when you log the cache online. Other hitchikers and travel bugs may have there own tracking website.

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... I will continue to argue in these forums against the belief that you can compare two cachers by comparing their find counts....

There's NO comparison. :)

 

There. :) I did it. I logged my opinion in the forums... :lol: now hurry and lock it! :lol:

Well, I can compare ventura_kids and EMC of Northridge, CA because I've cached with both of them and I know they always follow the rules. B)

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Caches and the travel bugs belong to the people who place them.

That is the rule.

I have to disagree with this. Placing a cache gives the placer certain responsibilities but no real privilege of ownership. The placer (or adopter) of a cache is called the owner only as a matter of convenience. The owner has the responsibility to maintain the cache. This maintenance includes ensuring the quality of online logs. It also includes disabling the cache if it is unavailable and either archiving it or putting it up for adoption when they no longer want the responsiblities. Travel bug owners have similar responsibilities for their travel bugs.

 

There is no way for a bug owner to enforce that a person who takes the travel moves it according to its goal. There is no way for a cache owner to force people to trade fairly. The cache owner can't force the finder to replace the cache exactly as hidden. The cache owner has no rights if the property owner or land manager removes his cache. He has no rights if the bomb squad blows up his cache. (But he may be held responsible and ordered to pay the cost for removing or blowing up the cache).

 

With regard to your orginal post on whether travel bugs are trade items - I understand the sentiment in the travel bug community to treat travel bug differently, but I don't really care what the travel bug owners/experts think - again I'm stating what I think the de facto situation is. If a geocacher doesn't take a travel bug because they didn't have anything to trade for it there's not much a travel bug owner can do beyond posting that a trade is not required on the travel bug page and expressing their opinions in the forums. Similarly, if a cache owner wants to have a travel bug hotel and require that you leave a travel bug in order to take one, there's not much the bug owner can do except to appeal to the cache to the change the rule. And if a cacher wanted to take bug without leaving one he could probably do that by waiting a few days after logging the find before grabing the bug or just take the bug without logging out of the cache. Still I would be willing to change my rule for travel bugs:

 

4. Hitchikers/Travel Bugs - Some items in the cache may be hitchikers or travel bug. These items want to be taken from cache to cache often with some goal such as visting another city or country. Hitchikers/travel bugs are not treated like ordinary trade item. Travel bug owners want to see their bugs move and to allow this to happen, most cache owners don't care if you take a travel bug with out leaving something or leave a travel bug without taking something. Some cache owners - particularly of some, but not all, travel bug hotels - require a trade for travel bugs; but the travel bug "purists" frown on this and refer to these travel bug hotels as travel bug prisons. If you take a hitchiker/travel bug you should try to move it according to its goal. If the travel bug has an official geocaching.com tracking number you should go to the travel bug page on geocaching.com to log that you took the bug from the cache (you will need the tracking number). When you leave the bug in another cache you should remember to drop it there when you log the cache online. Other hitchikers and travel bugs may have there own tracking website.

As far as Groundspeak is concerned, the cache container is owned by the person who placed it. They are responsible for it and the online logs.

 

The rest of this is pretty much on track. I may have missed something in all those words.

Edited by Moose Mob
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I understand the sentiment in the travel bug community to treat travel bug differently

 

I am not sure you do when you refer to it as sentiment. :unsure:

 

Any representation that is not a fact propagates the misinformation and increases the chance that others will share this fundamental misunderstanding.

 

It is my Travel Bug, I paid for it, I own it. No amount of trade goods makes my travel bug yours. It is not a trade item, it is mine, this is not sentiment, it is fact.

 

Caches and Travel Bugs are the property of the people who own them. This is not a sentiment nor does someone need to be an expert to see this simple fact. Travel Bugs are mishandled because many cachers, even very experienced ones, tend to propagate the fundamental misunderstanding that Travel Bugs are trade items, they are not.

Caches placed where there are restrictions on TB movement or TB trading conditions are placed by players who suffer from a "fundamental misunderstanding" of the "general parameters of the game", you do not have to be any type of purist to see this, it should be evident to everyone.

 

When you purchase a Travel Bug it is yours, it does not belong to anyone else, it is not a Trade Item.

 

If cache placers suffer from fundamental misunderstandings then other cachers will suffer also, it cannot be ignored, it is not possible to enjoy geocaching if rude emails are received from cachers who share the "fundamental misunderstanding" that Travel Bugs are trade items.

 

Your defacto summarization was propagating misinformation to every new cacher who happened to wander in and read it, they think there is some disagreement about Travel Bugs being trade items and there isn't, just misunderstanding and misinformation.

Edited by wavector
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I thought this would be rules about avoiding angst in the forum! In which case there's only one:

 

1. Don't visit the forum.

 

Easy peasy!

 

I've already broken my one rule.

I'm not Batman.

 

.........

...................knowschad....

Oh my word.

I just noticed this thread was from two-thousand-freaking-five! :blink::laughing:

 

Wow.

Thank you for providing today's I-don't-believe-it moment.

 

4830785782_608idont_608x376_answer_2_xlarge.png

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These are good rules but I object to the use of the term "purist." The correct term is "Puritans."

 

Thank you.

 

 

Aha! So!!!!!! It was YOUR fault. We still live with that today, even though you've been away for 9 years. Thanks for nothing, you puritan! :laughing:

 

Yes, but closer examination shows that Hugh Jazz (get it?) was a sock puppet account. No finds and two hides, one being an event. The real person behind the term Puritan may or may not still be around. But I'll tell you what, before just now, if you would have told me anyone other than sbell111 or Toz invented it, I would have told you that you were crazy. :unsure:

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I thought this would be rules about avoiding angst in the forum! In which case there's only one:

 

1. Don't visit the forum.

 

Easy peasy!

 

I've already broken my one rule.

I'm not Batman.

 

.........

...................knowschad....

Oh my word.

I just noticed this thread was from two-thousand-freaking-five! :blink::laughing:

 

Wow.

Thank you for providing today's I-don't-believe-it moment.

 

4830785782_608idont_608x376_answer_2_xlarge.png

 

:laughing:

 

I started reading it, and thought to myself...hmmm...this thread looks familiar. And then I looked at some of the accounts posting and it dawned on me to check the dates. Yeah. :rolleyes:

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New Rules:

No one can place a cache with .1 miles from any road

If the cache is smaller than a shoe box take home with you!

Anyone caught trading down loses their GPS or Cell phone!

All caches require at 15 minutes of effort to find!

If it Leaks destory the cache!

All caches must be able to survive a bear attack!

Anyone unable to refit the top correctly is out of the game!

All Caches Pages must state a Valid reason for the location!

Only 15% of the cache can be visible after covered.

Bushwacking is required for all caches -at least .1 miles.

Noone is allowed to holler "I found it"

All trade items have to be agreed upon by 10 other cachers!

And blaw Blaw Blaw!

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All caches must be able to survive a bear attack!
Okay, clearly bear canisters can be used.

 

But what about smaller containers that a bear can swallow? If they protect their contents while passing through the bear's digestive tract, then does that count as "surviving a bear attack"?

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All caches must be able to survive a bear attack!
Okay, clearly bear canisters can be used.

 

But what about smaller containers that a bear can swallow? If they protect their contents while passing through the bear's digestive tract, then does that count as "surviving a bear attack"?

 

Unless the bear swallowed the container just before going into hibernation that would be a moving cache and would not be allowed. An exception might be granted, however, if the bear was in the UK.

 

 

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Only 15% of the cache can be visible after covered.

I was going to say that should read "at least 15%", but then there'd be an issue with caches left out in the open. Then I thought maybe it should be "at most 15%", but then there'd be the issue that it's too hidden, and caches should be findable by everyone and without unintentionally damaging property or digging holes.

 

Nope, 15% is perfect. And to avoid vague linelessness and slippery slope arguments - not 16%, not 14% - 15% exactly.

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Only 15% of the cache can be visible after covered.

I was going to say that should read "at least 15%", but then there'd be an issue with caches left out in the open. Then I thought maybe it should be "at most 15%", but then there'd be the issue that it's too hidden, and caches should be findable by everyone and without unintentionally damaging property or digging holes.

 

Nope, 15% is perfect. And to avoid vague linelessness and slippery slope arguments - not 16%, not 14% - 15% exactly.

Except if its a nano cache because then there isn't enough cache to have 15%.

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All caches must be able to survive a bear attack!
Okay, clearly bear canisters can be used.

 

But what about smaller containers that a bear can swallow? If they protect their contents while passing through the bear's digestive tract, then does that count as "surviving a bear attack"?

Unless the bear swallowed the container just before going into hibernation that would be a moving cache and would not be allowed. An exception might be granted, however, if the bear was in the UK.
Huh... If a cache has to survive a bear attack while complying with the geocache permanence guideline, then even bear canisters are out. I have it on good authority that actual bear canisters tend to travel while surviving actual bear attacks.

 

But they might work for grandfathered traveling caches, as long as we can train bears to post the new coordinates after they've moved the traveling cache.

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