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fireman121

Wild Question For Mngca

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This sounds like a real wild question, has any body ever the thought of splitting up the MnGCA in to smaller groups, when I was going through some of the forums on the GC forums I notice that some states have done that, due to the size of the area they covered and other reasons.

 

Can the current MnGCA serve all the members in the entire state effectively, are all the members needs the same. The needs and views of the cachers in Hibbing and Luverne Minnesota can be totally different then the ones in the Twin Cites area.

 

I also know there are members who think that MnGCA should head in one direction, and there are other members who think that it should head a 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Some members are willing to let there point be known, while others sit back and grumble underneath there breath.

 

I know this tread is opening up a hornets nest, its just some thing to think about.

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Maybe it would be best to word the original post this way:

 

Hey, there's a discussion in the MnGCA forums about splitting MnGCA up to more effectively cover the state. You can find it here.

 

And there's another one here.

 

There are already two threads on this topic going on the MnGCA boards, having a third one going here is just going to make things more disjointed.

 

Bret

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No reason why a state can't have several geocaching organizations... Is there?

Makes sense to me ... it works in Ohio just fine.

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SixDoTteam as a good point, why cant we discuess this here, it is part of the midwest, or at least the last time I checked it was, or did I down load the wrong datum point? :laughing:

Edited by fireman121

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I'm not saying you can't discuss it here. Discuss away...

 

I DID say that it was probably BEST discussed in the MnGCA forums, where most of the people that are interested in MN geocaching are present. Granted there are folks that don't read the MnGCA forum, but so far the only responses I've seen here are from out of state cachers.

 

If you end up with a conversation going in two or three places then it will be that much harder to get everyone on the same page. My suggestion was simply to try and get everyone on the same page from the beginning. I believe the moderator also made such a suggestion - having the conversation in two or three different places makes things more disjointed.

 

But again, if you want to discuss it here then have at it... I'm not saying you can't have it here, just trying to point out that it has already been started in two other threads somewhere else.

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I know this tread is opening up a hornets nest, its just some thing to think about.

You've definitely come to the right place. We've got plenty of sharp sticks to poke it with... :laughing:

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I don't see this as being just out about MnGCA. The topic could come up in any of the other 49 states. While local specifics probably should be confined to state organizations, a general discussion would be helpful.

 

1. What experiences have other multi-org states had?

2. How does the state respond to multiple contacts promoting geocaching?

3. Are the differences geographical, political, or something else?

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2. How does the state respond to multiple contacts promoting geocaching?

I would think the groups would get together to present a united front...

Are the differences geographical, political, or something else?

 

All of the above, plus more.

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2. How does the state respond to multiple contacts promoting geocaching?

I would think the groups would get together to present a united front...

But can you count on that?

Just like "No reason why a state can't have several geocaching organizations... Is there? ", there's no reason why various have to work together. Or for that matter why cachers there have to be involved with the group(s) or follow any sort of 'policy' the org may have... Its all voluntary.

Not that mutliple groups is bad, but I guess for me the question is would this increase overall involvement and foster better communication? or just break the area into despotic fiefs and confuse and scatter relations?

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2. How does the state respond to multiple contacts promoting geocaching?

I would think the groups would get together to present a united front...

But can you count on that?

Just like "No reason why a state can't have several geocaching organizations... Is there? ", there's no reason why various have to work together. Or for that matter why cachers there have to be involved with the group(s) or follow any sort of 'policy' the org may have... Its all voluntary.

Not that mutliple groups is bad, but I guess for me the question is would this increase overall involvement and foster better communication? or just break the area into despotic fiefs and confuse and scatter relations?

Great balls of Fire! Despotic Fiefdoms--what an awesome concept!

 

:):)

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or just break the area into despotic fiefs and confuse and scatter relations?

 

Good grief people! No one's calling turf or 'hoods here ...I'm sure we can work together like the normal humans do. We're Geocachers! Give us some credit!

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I agree EB. Arguing about geocaching doesn't make a whole of since, but I gots to represent my hood... Maybe these folks could meet on a trail somewhere and settle there differences like geoMEN. We could post coords and call it an event, it would be great.

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Look around at what other groups have done. A statewide organization with local chapters (I think Wisconsin does that) may work in this instance. I think this is the best model for a statewide group. The local chapters deal with things in their area and you still only have one group to deal with larger issues.

 

If you truly cannot work within the current organizations framework there is nothing stopping you from starting up another group. Keep in mind that if it is a directly competing group you may end up causing more problems than anything. If it is issues with the current group, why not work from within it to change things?

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If the discussion is about the MnGCA proper, then I have to agree the discussion should be held on the MnGCA forum. It's up to the members of the MnGCA to discuss if they want chapters or not. As it currently stands there are only about 150 member in the MnGCA and over 4400 active cachers in the state. We don't state that we represent all of the cachers in the state. However we are the only organized and registered geocaching organization in the state.

 

We have not nor ever tried to represent ourselves any differently.

 

Now if the discussion is should there be other organizations in the state. Great. Let them organize and do their own thing. We maybe even able to help them out organization to organization.

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2. How does the state respond to multiple contacts promoting geocaching?

I would think the groups would get together to present a united front...

If you cannot unify as one state organization, how can you present a unified front to state? By definition you are not getting along anyway or splinter groups would not be forming. If you want to present a united front, you should be a united group.

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If you cannot unify as one state organization, how can you present a unified front to state?

 

Many states have different geocaching groups, not just different chapters. Ironic that none of these states are having the difficulties that Minnesota is having. They are allowed to cache in state parks AND they get along just fine. It's obvious to me that maybe Minnesota should try something different. Just to remind everybody, the beautiful thing about democracy is that if you don't like the leadership, and can't change it, you can always start your own brand. :wacko:

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If you cannot unify as one state organization, how can you present a unified front to state?

 

Many states have different geocaching groups, not just different chapters. Ironic that none of these states are having the difficulties that Minnesota is having. They are allowed to cache in state parks AND they get along just fine.

According to this post the ban on caches in Minnesota state parks started somewhere around July, 2002. According to this post on the MnGCA's website, the group started around December, 2002. I'm not sure where the irony is.

 

I thought this was a cool statement on the MnGCA page I referenced in the paragraph above:

In addition to the parks listed on the guidelines page, the discussions with the Minnesota State Parks have begun to help as well. We expect a new policy to go into effect sometime in 2004 which will allow limited geocaching in MN State Parks. This really shows the difference our group has made; in one year the park system has nearly done an about-face, from an outright ban to beginning the process of drafting a new policy. The wheels of progress turn slowly, but thanks to members of this group they do turn!

 

From the recent news about talks it does appear the wheels are turning....a bit slower than predicted two years ago, but still turning. :wacko:

 

Bret

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Settle down, fella. The irony is that according to the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (copyright 2005) geocaching is not allowed. Since you just told me that the MN organization has been around since 2002...what have they been doing? Maybe I'm wrong...has it been changed since this website was updated? Maybe nothing they can do can change the DNR's mind..who knows. All I'm saying is that people do actually have a right to start a different organization for ANY reason. I really don't see what the big deal is. Just start a different org. Start with Minn, then TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!

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Settle down, fella. The irony is that according to the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (copyright 2005) geocaching is not allowed. Since you just told me that the MN organization has been around since 2002...what have they been doing? Maybe I'm wrong...has it been changed since this website was updated? Maybe nothing they can do can change the DNR's mind..who knows. All I'm saying is that people do actually have a right to start a different organization for ANY reason. I really don't see what the big deal is. Just start a different org. Start with Minn, then TAKE OVER THE WORLD!!!!

Heeeyyy, this fella's always settled down! :wacko:

 

I can't speak for what MnGCA has been doing, maybe some of the other members can. One thing they seem to have been busy doing, though, is working with the parks to present a solid "face" for geocachers in the state. They seem to have been well received and talks are now starting with the DNR about changing their policy.

 

The time frame doesn't surprise me. I've had a little experience in working with the time tables of government agencies myself. As you probably know, "Bureaucracy is the epoxy that greases the wheels of progress." :(

 

Seriously though, if this is about the DNR talks, splintering at this point is not going to make things better. Mtn-man's right, they need to present a unified front to the state.

 

But is that what the original poster meant by, "Can the current MnGCA serve all the members in the entire state effectively, are all the members needs the same."? I can't speak for that either, I'm not sure any of us can.

 

Bret

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I see your point about the splintering, but let me play devil's advocate just for poops and giggles.

 

What if its better that there is more than one organization in the state?

 

Maybe it would sound better if they were to say:

"we met with several geocaching organizations", instead of "we met with a geocaching organization". Hmmmm.

 

Maybe the govies would say to themselves:

"Hey, these things are sprouting up all over the place, maybe we're alienating a large section of minnesotas park users by not offering their hobby at our sites, thats our job isn't it? To let the people enjoy the land?"

 

Maybe it's like disc golf... people thought it was ridiculous until they realized how many people were actually doing it (which I do believe is less people than geocache, different point) then park and rec dept's starting catering to those individuals. We should show them that there is more of us than they think, more than one organizations worth. Just something to ponder. Like I said...we could TAKE OVER THE WORLD! (in deep, out of this world, echoing voice)

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The funny thing to me about this whole thread is that there is little or no interest in it by people from Minnesota. This thread has been kept alive by outsiders with no stake in the matter.

 

Yes, there has been some recent drama in Minnesota with a small handful of folks disagreeing with the MNGCA board's direction. They went off and started theie own forum. They may or may not be planning on forming their own association. If they do, that's their right. I may be wrong, but I don't think the OP's post had anything to do with that issue. I think he was just curious if anyone had considered having more than one association in the state based on geographical boundaries. It is obvious to me that no one in Minnesota, with the possible exception of the afore mentioned handful, feels the need for more than one association, evidenced by the fact that there are no Minnesotans here, or in the thread on the MNGCA forum referred to by Pearhead, arguing that case.

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Part of what I find funny is that the original post was discussing whether the MnGCA should look at regional groups or chapters. I don't do see anywhere in the post where their was an intent by the poster to suggest that the MnGCA break up into seperate organization. Yet that is exactly what this thread digressed to.

 

I stated it before but it is worth repeating. The MnGCA has never said it represents all geocachers in Minnesota. We the MnGCA do currently represent our membership. We have never tried to stop another organization from forming, rf for that matter tried to break up another existing organization.

 

In reference to the DNR policy. The original policy of the DNR for State Parks was 'No Geocaching". They were contacted a couple of years ago and they stated that they were working on an updated policy that they expected to be released in 2004. I was not released until August 2005. It took them nearly two years to produce a published policy. During the two year period we maintained a low key contact with the DNR and waited as they continued to tell us that they were working on the policy.

 

However, as you read it you will see that it only alloed for virtual caches and with the changes at GC.com the policy has already become outdated and unusable from a GC.com perspective. However, there are other caching sites out there that still allow virtuals and this policy would still apply to those gaming websites.

 

If you read paragraph 1.3 Participant Input it allows for the organization to make contact again with the DNR in order to discuss geocaching needs and update them on the GC.com poliicies on geocaching.

 

DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCE
DIVISION OF PARKS AND RECREATION
August 1, 2005


Subject: Minnesota State Park Earth-caching and Virtual-caching Guidelines

Policy Number: 32

Effective Date: September 1, 2005

Key Words: Cache, Geocaching, Earthcaching, GPS, Global Positioning, Stash Hunt, Virtual-caching, letterboxing.

____________________________________________________________________________________

1.0 INTRODUCTIONS & BACKGROUND

1.1 Purpose
To provide a framework for the management of geocaching (earth or virtual only) in Minnesota State Parks, so it is done in a manner that provides for the safety of all users, minimizes conflicts with other users and ensures the protection of the natural and cultural resources. These guidelines are intended to acknowledge the use of certain areas within the state park system as permissible for geocaching so that the park's natural and cultural resources are not being irrevocably altered, and to establish a permitting system for their use.

1.2 Policy Statement
Section 86A.05 subd. 2c of Minnesota Statutes states that outdoor recreation activities, which will not cause material disturbance to the natural features of the park or introduce undue artificiality into the natural scene may be permitted. The geocaching policy for Minnesota State Parks is based on the understanding that, 1) Geocachers have expressed an interest in pursuing this activity in state parks, 2) Certain types of geocaching fit within the statutory framework and rules of recreational activities that may be permitted, and 3) Minnesota State Parks, will be required to develop guidelines to manage this activity and its impact on park resources and other park users.

1.3 Participant Input
Minnesota State Parks will periodically seek input from interested individuals on geocaching issues, in order to identify needs of geocachers and stay current on changes in this recreational activity.

1.4 Information and Education
Park management will work with the geocaching community to develop information and education materials, which foster an environmentally friendly geocaching ethic for MN State Parks. Information kiosks or bulletin boards may be used to provide a communication link between geocachers and park management. All materials to be posted in a state park or state recreation area must be approved by park management.


1.5 Definitions
Cache
Traditional cache: A waterproof container with a logbook. The containers vary from plastic see-through types to camouflage painted surplus military ammunition cans. Rules prevent these from being placed in lands administered by the Division of Parks & Recreation.
Virtual cache: A GPS coordinate that refers to a location, such as a scenic overlook, historic site, geologic feature, etc. No logbook or container with items is used.
Earth cache: An Earthcache is a virtual cache which people can visit to learn about a unique geoscience feature or aspect of our Earth. Earthcaches include a set of educational notes and the details about where to find the location (latitude and longitude). The educational notes and features of all earthcaches are reviewed by the Geological Society of America for accuracy before being posted on the internet.

Geocaching
Geocaching is a recreational activity involving the use of GPS (Global Positioning System) to locate “caches” whether virtual (a scenic overlook) or real (a container including a logbook.). Participants use information and location coordinates they look up on the Internet (www.geocaching.com) to find the caches.

Virtual Caching Permit
A document that when completed by an individual geocacher and approved by a state park manager allows the advertisement of a virtual cache at a specific location in a state park.

GPS
The Global Positioning System is a worldwide radio-navigation system formed from a constellation of 24 satellites and their ground stations. GPS uses these "man-made stars" as reference points to calculate positions accurate to a matter of meters.

Letterboxing
Letterboxing is an activity similar to geocaching. Waterproof containers are hidden at interesting spots and clues are written to help people find them. The clues may or may not include compass directions or GPS coordinates. When box is discovered, the person uses their personal rubber stamp to mark the enclosed logbook to document that they found it.

Minnesota State Parks, MN State Parks
A division of the MN Department of Natural Resources. Lands managed by MN State Parks that are covered under this policy include: State Parks, State Recreation Areas, and State Waysides. In this document, the word Park or Parks will be used to identify these lands.

Organizational Virtual Caching Permit
A permit for organizations or institutions, designed for a short-term sponsored event or an event held for educational purposes.

Park Management
(1) MN State Parks central office and regional administrative staff. (2) Central office, regional, and area resource management staff. (3) Individual park managers and assistant managers.
2.0 GEOCACHING GUIDELINES

2.1 Virtual Caches Only Allowed in MN State Parks
a. Only virtual caches, and types of virtual caches, like earthcaches, are allowed on lands administered by MN State Parks.
b. Any form of traditional cache or letterbox is prohibited under State Park Rules (6100.1650). Any traditional cache or letterbox that is found in a state park will be removed and the owner may be subject to citation and fine.

2.2 Individual Permits for Virtual Caching
a. A person must first obtain approval and a permit for a virtual cache site on State Park lands from the park manager before the site can be advertised or posted on the web.
b. Contact information for individual parks can be found at: http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/state_parks/index.html or by calling (651) 296-6157 (Metro area) or (888) MINN-DNR (elsewhere).
c. Applications for virtual caching permits are available during regular business hours at a park office (or through the mail by writing the park office).
d. After review and approval, permits will be available for pick-up at the park office or sent to the applicant via U.S. Mail. Permits are valid only for the park where issued.
e. Individual virtual caching permits are valid for one year and expire one year from the date of issue.
f. Virtual caching permits may be denied or may contain restrictions to avoid environmental damage, overuse, pre-emption of virtual caching areas, or displacement of other park users.
g. No fee is charged for individual geocaching permits, however, all other regular state park fees, like vehicle permits, camping fees, etc remain in place.

2.3 Organizational Permits for Virtual Caching
a. Organizational virtual cache permits are for institutions or organizations. Entities such as schools, universities, businesses, etc that would like to sponsor events or provide instruction for geocachers in MN State Parks must first obtain an organizational virtual caching permit.
b. Organizational virtual cache permits are issued for a specific date or series of dates, and shall specify the location(s).
c. Organizational permits may be denied or may contain restrictions or limitations to avoid environmental damage, overuse, or displacement of other park users.
d. These permits may be allowed in addition to a park’s three-cache limit.
e. Organizational virtual caching permittees are required to furnish a certificate of insurance valid for the effective dates of the permit, listing the State of Minnesota as a named insured. The amount of coverage shall be at least as much as the state's limits of liability under the Minnesota tort claims act, Minn. Stat. ' 3.736. As of January 2000, these limits are $300,000 per individual and $1,000,000 per incident.

Warning and liability disclaimer. Virtual caching is a recreational activity with many participants of different physical abilities. The State of Minnesota does not rate virtual caching locations to determine their safety.

2.4 Virtual Cache Locations
a. Approval of virtual cache sites will be based on visitor safety, resource protection, educational opportunities, compatibility with other uses, aesthetics, access, and other management goals.
b. Virtual caches are not allowed in Scientific and Natural Areas, areas identified as restricted, picnic areas, play areas, golf courses, beaches, or campgrounds.
c. No more than three virtual caches will be present in a park at a given time, and no one individual may have more than one virtual cache at a particular park.
d. MN State Parks reserves the right to make a virtual cache unavailable if it is determined that overuse is a problem, a safety issue develops, or other circumstances arise which are deemed inconsistent with the mission and statutes of the MN State Park System. If such a situation arises, park staff will make every effort to coordinate these actions with the person responsible for the site.
e. Individual virtual caching permits are valid for one year and expire one year from the date of issue.
f. Access to caches will be subject to MN State Park Rules and Statutes including hours of operation, designated trail uses, maintenance standards and natural resources management activities.
g. Virtual caches will generally be located within 40 feet of designated trails, or other areas which can be accessed safely by visitors and without material harm to the natural or cultural resources of the park.
2.5 Termination Clause
If the conditions of the virtual caching permit are not met, the state may make the webpage for the virtual cache unavailable without prior notice.

3.0 POLICY CHANGES & APPLICABLE LAWS & STATUTES

3.1 Policy Changes
A review of this policy will be conducted approximately one year after enactment. A group comprised of park management, resource specialists, members of the geocaching communityand other interested individuals will conduct the review. Policy revisions will be incorporated into a draft proposal and made accessible to interested individuals for comment prior to final implementation. Subsequent reviews will occur as needed.

Comments on the policy may be submitted in writing to:

Department of Natural Resources
Minnesota State Parks
Operations Manager
500 Lafayette Rd
St Paul, MN 55155-4039

Alterations in policy, park closures to virtual caching, park specific virtual caching issues will be posted at the DNR website, www.dnr.state.mn.us and available by request from the Department of Natural Resources, Division of Parks and Recreation.

3.2 Applicable Laws, Statutes, and Rules

6100.0525 PENALTY.
A person who violates any of parts 6100.0100 to 6100.2400 is guilty of a misdemeanor and subject to immediate removal from the state park or forest lands and to other appropriate legal action, including revocation of any permits issued.

6100.0500 DEFINITIONS. Special event.
"Special event" means an event held in a state park or on forest lands that is not normally allowed, that causes significant environmental effects, or that is likely to attract large numbers of people that could disrupt normal use of the state park or forest lands. Special events include, but are not limited to, motorcycle, snowmobile, and sports car rallies, races, or enduros; orienteering trials; group campouts that do not occur at designated group camps; dog sled races; dog trials; and commercial uses.

6100.0650 RESTRICTED AREAS.
It is unlawful to enter by any means a restricted area that has been posted to prohibit entrance. It is unlawful for a person to use a state park or forestlands facility that requires a special use permit or a fee, without first obtaining a permit or paying the fee.

6100.0900 ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION.
Subpart 1. Generally. Unless otherwise provided by law, no person in a state park or forest recreation area shall disturb, destroy, injure, damage, deface, molest, or remove any state property, including, but not limited to, wildflowers or vegetation of any kind dead or alive, ruins, wild animals, geological formations, historical or archaeological artifacts or sites, historic structures, signs, or facilities, except edible fruit, mushrooms, legally taken wild animals, and vegetation unavoidably damaged or destroyed by the ordinary recreational uses of these areas as specifically permitted by parts to. Collections for scientific and educational purposes may be made only with the written permission of the commissioner. It is unlawful to damage vegetation or damage and deface rock formations with rock-climbing equipment.

6100.1650 STORAGE AND ABANDONMENT OF PERSONAL PROPERTY.

Subpart 1. Obstruction of passage. No person shall leave standing, whether attended or unattended, a motor vehicle, trailer, boat, fish house, or other equipment or personal property so as to block, obstruct, or limit the use of a road, trail, waterway, water access, parking area, or winter sport facility.

3.2 Applicable Laws, Statutes, and Rules (continued)

Subp. 2. Abandonment. No vehicle, trailer, boat, fish house, or other equipment or personal property may be stored or abandoned in a state park or on forest lands. In state parks, overnight parking and storage of equipment is permitted only in connection with the use of campsites or fish houses, except by prior approval of the park manager. The temporary storage of personal property by a person who remains in the immediate vicinity is permitted. In state forest campgrounds and forest day use areas, overnight parking is permitted in designated parking areas.

Subp. 3. Disposal. A vehicle, trailer, boat, or other equipment or personal property left for a period longer than 14 days, except fish houses located on the ice surface of a body of water, shall be deemed abandoned and shall be transferred to the custody of the commissioner of administration for disposal in accordance with state law.

(signed copy on file with Operations Coordinator)
___________________________
Courtland Nelson - Director
Division of Parks and Recreation

August 8, 2005
___________________________
Date

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This thread has been kept alive by outsiders with no stake in the matter.

 

Maybe because we like to discuss geocaching issues. Maybe because we saw the thread and were interested in it. Maybe because we wanted to. Maybe thats all the reason we need to post, not because we have permission from you OR have a stake in the matter.

 

Wild Question For Mngca

 

Unless I have mistaken the meaning for Mngca and it really means something like minks now governing california, then I would suppose this DOES have to do with Minnesota. And just for the record, how do you know I'm not planning on moving to Minnesota? Then, I would have a stake in it. Hmmmm... :)

Edited by Miss Eagerbeaver

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We really feel the pain of the Taxpayers of MinneSODA who have to fund the salaries of the drones that waste their time authoring the drivel that passes for policy that was quoted above. Some government workers don't live in the real world... They ought to be in jail for wasting the taxpayers money in such non productive ways--It's nothing short of larceny! It's child's play....

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"c. No more than three virtual caches will be present in a park at a given time, and no one individual may have more than one virtual cache at a particular park.

d. MN State Parks reserves the right to make a virtual cache unavailable if it is determined that overuse is a problem, a safety issue develops, or other circumstances arise which are deemed inconsistent with the mission and statutes of the MN State Park System. If such a situation arises, park staff will make every effort to coordinate these actions with the person responsible for the site."

 

This nonsense goes on for paragraph after paragraph. One would think these monkeys don't know what a virtual cache is by reading their regulation. But they do! They even define it! ***What a hoot! ****Does anybody in their right mind take these idiots seriously? This is pathetic!!! No, on second thought, it's not. What it is, is, SCARY. :rolleyes:

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DNR Mission Statement: Our mission is to work with citizens to conserve and manage the state's natural resources, to provide OUTDOOR RECREATION OPPORTUNITIES, and to provide for commercial uses of natural resources in a way that creates a sustainable quality of life.

 

I found this on the MDNR website...

:D

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DNR Mission Statement: Our mission is to work with citizens to conserve and manage the state's natural resources, to provide OUTDOOR RECREATION OPPORTUNITIES, and to provide for commercial uses of natural resources in a way that creates a sustainable quality of life.

 

I found this on the MDNR website...

;)

Yea we get it, they can't read their own website...

To me that just seems all the more reason why they need a dedicated organized stable group of local cachers to work with them. Hopefully to produce a more coherent applicable policy.

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