Geocoins May Come To An End

2k · December 8, 2005

Read the posts by Jeremy. Just want to give a heads up...I have coins in the works and I will not pay for tracking numbers and icons if they are going to be banned as a matter of fact I won't mint them at all. I wonder how much GC.com will lose in money? I just paid them over 2,000 for tracking on the KS.

Thread

December 8, 2005

I dont see them doing away with trackable coins he was PO because of virtuals

2k · December 8, 2005

It makes me want to reconsider allowing more geocoins on the site.

Really? He posted this ^----

9.8k · December 8, 2005

I know the one virtual TB I had was deactivated. If you try to log it, it doesn't let you. I got the impression from the thread that it was geared more towards TBs and not coins. Most of the coins are "grabbed" anyway or used as personal TBs that travel with their owners.

3.8k · December 8, 2005

Yeah, this sounds like a crackdown on the virtual TB logging is looming on the horizon. Coins got into this thread cuz of the virtual coin logging that's been happening.

I think he's right. If you didn't pick it up, don't log it.

A friend of mine up here wanted me to "loan" her some coin numbers just as the whole trackable coin mess was exploding. I think very highly of this nice lady, but declined to pony up. She had never even seen the coins in question, let alone held one.

24.7k · December 8, 2005

You are just going to have to wait and see what developed. Right now it looks like if it's a known virtual bug or coin, that number is going to get retired.

3.8k · December 8, 2005

You are just going to have to wait and see what developed. Right now it looks like if it's a known virtual bug or coin, that number is going to get retired.

That works

2k · December 8, 2005

I can imagine that the logging of coins at events etc, are causing some grief to the geocaching.com servers. However, at $1.50 per coin -- how many are regularily logged? 10%, 20%? The money is likely better than the pain on this one.

I don't know the geocaching.com infrastructure, but I would throw TB's and Geocoins into a separate Server (or cluster) and be done with it. This means the "caching" portion of the site (remember that?) would not be overly affected by all the TB logging.

For users, it makes no difference what Server they run queries and updates on -- as long as the data goes in and out properly.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Lemon Fresh Dog

2k · December 8, 2005

I can imagine that the logging of coins at events etc, are causing some grief to the geocaching.com servers. However, at $1.50 per coin -- how many are regularily logged? 10%, 20%? The money is likely better than the pain on this one.

I don't know the geocaching.com infrastructure, but I would throw TB's and Geocoins into a separate Server (or cluster) and be done with it. This means the "caching" portion of the site (remember that?) would not be overly affected by all the TB logging.

For users, it makes no difference what Server they run queries and updates on -- as long as the data goes in and out properly.

Please post this in the other thread, it needs to be there for them to see it. I completely agree.

December 8, 2005

Perhaps he's just blowing steam and will come back to look at it again later...

I certainly hope he doesn't do away with the trackable GC coin, it's be a shame. Why allow things to grow if you're just going to trim them back again...?

Chaz

1.2k · December 8, 2005

Read the posts by Jeremy. Just want to give a heads up...I have coins in the works and I will not pay for tracking numbers and icons if they are going to be banned as a matter of fact I won't mint them at all. I wonder how much GC.com will lose in money? I just paid them over 2,000 for tracking on the KS.

Thread

Kinda strange that NOW it's suddenly a problem for Jeremy. Now why's that?

24.7k · December 8, 2005

....
Kinda strange that NOW it's suddenly a problem for Jeremy. Now why's that?

In the post by Jeremy someone stole his wifts Travel Bug and replaced it with a Fake (aka virtual bug).

December 8, 2005

Kinda strange that NOW it's suddenly a problem for Jeremy. Now why's that?

To be fair, I can quote at least three other times Jeremy has come flat out against "virtual travel bugs" in just the last few weeks alone. This is just his way of posting that he's now even more against them, if that's possible. Some nitwit just gave a great example of one of the problems they can cause.

2.9k · December 8, 2005

The way i see it is they created the problem with giving uniques icons out for 1000 coins.

The icon hounds want every icon we even have iconsp to show all the icons.

If they left it at 5000 for a unique icon (jeeps are in 5000 lots) then the problem would reduce.

The new spotted log for TB's and coins should reduce these issues where one TB/Coin can generate logs to the cache owner for each lift and drop and for the coin owner thats got to be quite a load on the database.

1.8k · December 8, 2005

Uhhh...what's a virtual travel bug and for that matter what's a virtual coin how is that possible?

Actaully I don't have a problem with the Icon thing going away I only logged my first icon coin (German) and was not impressed.

I kind of liked just having the Moun10Bike icon! It would of kept things simple. The way I see the Icon status changed the whole spirit of the geocoin sig item ultra cool swag.

I wish it would go back to the way it use to be.

Pepper

Edited December 8, 2005 by Pepper

December 8, 2005

Uhhh...what's a virtual travel bug and for that matter what's a virtual coin how is that possible?

I'm confused here help.

Pepper

You simply give the number away and let the coin or TB travel virtually by passing the number around, ussually they travel via virtual caches, but since those are leaving soon, those virtual TBs will become a hassle, because if they end up in a normal cache you might be tempted to travel all the way to the cache just to find out that the TB never really was there.

The reason why they are closing down those virtual TB and coin pages if they are causing problems.

To find out more go the the TB search page and look into the advance search section then type virtual, that should give you a couple of hundres of virtual TBs

1.8k · December 8, 2005

Uhhh...what's a virtual travel bug and for that matter what's a virtual coin how is that possible?

I'm confused here help.

Pepper

You simply give the number away and let the coin or TB travel virtually by passing the number around, ussually they travel via virtual caches, but since those are leaving soon, those virtual TBs will become a hassle, because if they end up in a normal cache you might be tempted to travel all the way to the cache just to find out that the TB never really was there.

The reason why they are closing down those virtual TB and coin pages if they are causing problems.

To find out more go the the TB search page and look into the advance search section then type virtual, that should give you a couple of hundres of virtual TBs

Thanks for the explanation AV Dezign, but no thanks I'm not intrested.

December 8, 2005

It would be awful if a couple of bad apples ruin it for the rest of us. Coin collecting is now very popular. We're even looking into doing a coin early next year but if tracking numbers are not available I have to admit I'd probably lose all interest. I'd just stay with wooden nickels.

1.3k · December 8, 2005

I think one of Jeremy's biggest complaints is those out there who are logging virtual coins. IF you haven't physically seen, held, touched the coin, you should not log it. That's not the point. That would be like stealing a TB number that someone left inadvertantly visible in a picture and logging in/out.

I bought the Geocoins that I like and plan to share them at events or with my friends. I have no desire to put them in caches because they will wind up just like my TB's LOST!!!

So if we want to continue having Geocoins for tracking and trade, stop giving away your numbers to people who can't possibly have seen your coins. (IE dude in Germany logging a NC cacher's coin...)

That's my gripe. I like the coins and thoroughly enjoy everyones creativity! I'll shut up now!

1.5k · December 8, 2005

It would be awful if a couple of bad apples ruin it for the rest of us. Coin collecting is now very popular. We're even looking into doing a coin early next year but if tracking numbers are not available I have to admit I'd probably lose all interest. I'd just stay with wooden nickels.

I wouldn't rush to any conclusions because of that thread. If you have a coin in the works, finish it up. He did only say he was considering it.

Banning future coins because of virtual travel bug logging seems like an over reaction. Like company punishment.

1.2k · December 8, 2005

You are just going to have to wait and see what developed. Right now it looks like if it's a known virtual bug or coin, that number is going to get retired.

I don't log virtual bugs/coins anymore, but gosh golly gee, didn't those people pay the $5 or so dollars for the tag/coin? If Groundspeak deactivates a number they should give the owner of it a refund. Did they reemburse the money you payed, AtlantaGal?

Edited December 8, 2005 by Vargseld? ™

2k · December 8, 2005

I think one of Jeremy's biggest complaints is those out there who are logging virtual coins. IF you haven't physically seen, held, touched the coin, you should not log it. That's not the point. That would be like stealing a TB number that someone left inadvertantly visible in a picture and logging in/out.

I bought the Geocoins that I like and plan to share them at events or with my friends. I have no desire to put them in caches because they will wind up just like my TB's LOST!!!

So if we want to continue having Geocoins for tracking and trade, stop giving away your numbers to people who can't possibly have seen your coins. (IE dude in Germany logging a NC cacher's coin...)

That's my gripe. I like the coins and thoroughly enjoy everyones creativity! I'll shut up now!

In another thread he talked about stopping coins from being looged at events also (at least that's the way I took it), they would have to moved and put into a cache for the log to happen, and also they could not be logged into a cache more than once. I know I will not pay 10 bucks for a coin then put it in a cache for somebody to get the change to log it. It would get stolen before I could log it being in there.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Ladycacher & Boys

2.8k · December 8, 2005

In another thread he talked about stopping coins from being looged at events also (at least that's the way I took it), they would have to moved and put into a cache for the log to happen, and also they could not be logged into a cache more than once. I know I will not pay 10 bucks for a coin then put it in a cache for somebody to get the change to log it. It would get stolen before I could log it being in there.

He's coming up with a log entry for TBs that would require only 1 log for the event rather than a grabbed and a dropped log. This would make things easier for the events, and wouldn't add mileage to the TBs travels. Since there is likely to be a physical cache nearby, or associated with the event the TB will still get a chance to capture its mileage.

1k · December 8, 2005

what it is with all the coins getting stolen anyway?

Are the ones being taken well marked as a travelling coin?

Maybe it is a regional thing, I have helped several coins move and never once thought of keeping it.

My cache souvenir "box" is a folder of photos on my computer, I take a picture of the TBs and Coins that I pick up and move as a way to "keep" the item. So far, every TB and Coin that I've help move has been picked up and logged by another cacher, a couple even completed their goals.

I will also be sending out some of the coins I've purchased on missions, and placing some unactivated as FTF prizes.

-Mike

Not So Lost Puppies

December 8, 2005

He's coming up with a log entry for TBs that would require only 1 log for the event rather than a grabbed and a dropped log. This would make things easier for the events, and wouldn't add mileage to the TBs travels. Since there is likely to be a physical cache nearby, or associated with the event the TB will still get a chance to capture its mileage.

The best way that I've seen it done at events is the organizer asks everybody to just grab it (except the first cacher) from the previous cacher and not drop it back into the event. Then, after the dust settles, the person who actually has the TB/coin just grabs it from the last person. That way, there's only 1 log per cacher. It also prevents the TB/coin from being orphaned in the event.

2k · December 8, 2005

He's coming up with a log entry for TBs that would require only 1 log for the event rather than a grabbed and a dropped log. This would make things easier for the events, and wouldn't add mileage to the TBs travels. Since there is likely to be a physical cache nearby, or associated with the event the TB will still get a chance to capture its mileage.

The best way that I've seen it done at events is the organizer asks everybody to just grab it (except the first cacher) from the previous cacher and not drop it back into the event. Then, after the dust settles, the person who actually has the TB/coin just grabs it from the last person. That way, there's only 1 log per cacher. It also prevents the TB/coin from being orphaned in the event.

Yes, but he is going to stop that too.

You will have to put it in a cache for somebody else to find is what it comes down to. No more logging coins from events is what they are talking about doing. One guy even said he was tired of getting log emails!! THEN DON"T HAVE COINS!

2k · December 8, 2005

Sorry, but I think they just have to suck it up. After all, take a conservative estimate of 250,000 trackable coins. Then, assume that 70% are in collections, maybe logged once, maybe never. You are left with 75,000 coins being actively logged -- seen or unseen. Let's say, on average, these coins get logged once per month (sure, sure -- some will be logged 30X at an event, but many will be logged only once or twice a year -- and 70% is probably way too conservative on the number kept non-activated).

So you have:

250,000 X $1.50 = $375,000 revenue

75,000 X 12 = 900,000 database transactions

If you can't build a database to handle less than 1,000,000 transactions off of $375,000 revenue -- you need to check things out.

Heck, change the figures to 90% in collections, up the number of logs a coin sees -- it's still a pretty picture for Groundspeak.

That stated -- logging something you have never seen or touched is both wierd and sad. However, logging coins at events is, in my opinion, both fun and valid. In fact, I would think that selling tracking numbers that are never used (as is the case with many coins) is a great way to help pay for the regular database that manages the caches (heaven forbid we should have to pay for each find/placement). This is why I pay for a premium membership too -- databases cost money! However, the $30ish I pay for my Premium membership is far, far less than I have coughed-up for tracking numbers on coins (as both creator and consumer)

Edited December 8, 2005 by Lemon Fresh Dog

1k · December 8, 2005

Very well put Lemon Fresh Dog, trackable geocoins generate alot of revenue that really doesn't have any costs associated with it. yes databases cost money, but it doesn't not cost anywhere near as much as the $1.50 per coin for the processing and storage of the transaction.

I think your 90% is a much closer number. I'm sure they can run a report that would show how many of their tracking numbers have not been activated.

How many of you collectors out there activate your primary collection coins?

I can see where many would buy 3 of them... one to keep unactivated, one to activate for the icon or for grabs at events or travel logs, and the 3rd unactivated for trade.

If you trade for a coin and therefore only have one of them, do you activate it?

-Mike

Not So Lost Puppies

2.8k · December 8, 2005

If you trade for a coin and therefore only have one of them, do you activate it?

I have had some coins in my collection for quite awhile. I have activated them and haven't noticed any bad side effects such as tarnishing or scratching. So, I'll continue to activate them

1.1k · December 8, 2005

I have one of each icon activated in my collection. Plus I activate the ones i put i caches (obviously)

1.1k · December 8, 2005

darn double post

Edited December 8, 2005 by dhenninger

December 8, 2005

If Groundspeak deactivates a number they should give the owner of it a refund

I agree with that!!

December 8, 2005

I must be dense. There are some things I don't get:

- Why would you log a bug / coin that you have never seen or touched? Wouldn't that be like logging a cache that interested you but you couldn't get to or find. Like when I went to Mount Whitney last summer and turned back before the top. Means I did't get to the cache there and didn't log it.

- Why would I log a coin / travel bug that belonged to someone else and I didn't find it pick it up and move it on what ever it's journey is? I mean really, . . . someone shows me their coin collect, I see their coin's number, and log it. How lame is that?

-I log only travel bugs I move.

-I log only coins I hold in my hand and help with their journey. (which is why I have only one)

- I log only caches that I been to and found.

I thought that's the way everyone did it.

What am I missing here?

On the otherhand . . . . This is supposed to be fun. When I start sending coins in the wild I expect the worst. When the worst does happen . . . at least for awhile great.

There are good people and crummy people out there and that includes cacheers.

2k · December 8, 2005

I like logging coins I see at events. As long as I see them first hand. Many times their "journey" is to stay in the collection of the cacher that has collected them -- so I've helped them along by looking at them and that's that.

December 8, 2005

Sorry, but I think they just have to suck it up. After all, take a conservative estimate of 250,000 trackable coins. Then, assume that 70% are in collections, maybe logged once, maybe never. You are left with 75,000 coins being actively logged -- seen or unseen. Let's say, on average, these coins get logged once per month (sure, sure -- some will be logged 30X at an event, but many will be logged only once or twice a year -- and 70% is probably way too conservative on the number kept non-activated).

So you have:

250,000 X $1.50 = $375,000 revenue

75,000 X 12 = 900,000 database transactions

If you can't build a database to handle less than 1,000,000 transactions off of $375,000 revenue -- you need to check things out.

Heck, change the figures to 90% in collections, up the number of logs a coin sees -- it's still a pretty picture for Groundspeak.

That stated -- logging something you have never seen or touched is both wierd and sad. However, logging coins at events is, in my opinion, both fun and valid. In fact, I would think that selling tracking numbers that are never used (as is the case with many coins) is a great way to help pay for the regular database that manages the caches (heaven forbid we should have to pay for each find/placement). This is why I pay for a premium membership too -- databases cost money! However, the $30ish I pay for my Premium membership is far, far less than I have coughed-up for tracking numbers on coins (as both creator and consumer)

This should be posted undert the thread in the Geocaching Website section. I totally agree with this statement.

December 8, 2005

I kind of liked just having the Moun10Bike icon! It would of kept things simple. The way I see the Icon status changed the whole spirit of the geocoin sig item ultra cool swag.

I agree, although I suspect that we are in the minority, at least in the forums here. I'd like to see the Moun10Bike coin icon kept, then have the rest all rolled into the same generic coin icon that the USA geocoin uses and all tracked coins other than Moun10bike would be there.

Now, since they've been selling unique icons and such I don't think this is going to happen because of simple commerce... But perhaps if they moved the coin icons to their own stat page they wouldn't overwhelm the more meaningful stats.

As far as virtual TBs/coins, I don't log them and have never cared for the idea. I do however log TBs and coins that the owner wants logged but not actually moved because I think that you're complying with the wishes of the owner. People like to share coin numbers at events, or they have personal TBs they wear those events, or they carry a Moun10Bike coin for people to log... Again, the owners want people to log them(!) and not actually move them so I'm fine with those.

Examples include my Jeep, the WJTB our local group adopted and brings to all local events, LegGoes' OV1-C that he wears on his hat to events, and Agent 99, the caching cat.

2.2k · December 8, 2005

He's coming up with a log entry for TBs that would require only 1 log for the event rather than a grabbed and a dropped log. This would make things easier for the events, and wouldn't add mileage to the TBs travels. Since there is likely to be a physical cache nearby, or associated with the event the TB will still get a chance to capture its mileage.

The best way that I've seen it done at events is the organizer asks everybody to just grab it (except the first cacher) from the previous cacher and not drop it back into the event. Then, after the dust settles, the person who actually has the TB/coin just grabs it from the last person. That way, there's only 1 log per cacher. It also prevents the TB/coin from being orphaned in the event.

Yes, but he is going to stop that too.

You will have to put it in a cache for somebody else to find is what it comes down to. No more logging coins from events is what they are talking about doing. One guy even said he was tired of getting log emails!! THEN DON"T HAVE COINS!

I may have been the one that said something about being tired of the log emails. I know that does get old, but I will still share my coins.

However, some of the ideas that Jeremy has thrown around will be very good if implemented properly.

Say I go to an event with 20 coins. I may have 20-30 people take down all the tracking numbers. I ask them all to hold onto the coin until the next cacher grabs it, but that doesn't usually happen. So, over the course of the next week, I will get in the neighborhood of 400 email notifications at a minimum.

It's not that difficult to just delete them, but it is a lot of bandwidth used up.

One of the ideas I have seen tossed around is a "Spotted It" button. That will allow you to grab the icon for your profile, but not generate an email log, and will not actually move it to your inventory so you won't need to drop it anywhere.

To me, this sounds like a great idea. We can still share our coins with others, and yet not over tax the infrastructure.

December 8, 2005

One of the ideas I have seen tossed around is a "Spotted It" button. That will allow you to grab the icon for your profile, but not generate an email log, and will not actually move it to your inventory so you won't need to drop it anywhere.

To me, this sounds like a great idea. We can still share our coins with others, and yet not over tax the infrastructure.

I like that idea. Which probably means that it won't be implemented!

December 8, 2005

I like logging coins I see at events. As long as I see them first hand. Many times their "journey" is to stay in the collection of the cacher that has collected them -- so I've helped them along by looking at them and that's that.

Personally, I will only log a coin if I can touch it and don't really care about icons. There are plently of folks that I know that do collect icons and it does not bother me a bit. Live and let live...

The beauty of it is that you can play the game your way. It is not like we are in competition for a prize. Likewise you can manage your collection the way you want.

I keep getting email from some guy who is upset because I have the tracking number of one of my coins shown in a scan. Twice now he has grabbed it then sent me friendly "warning" about showing the number. Again, who cares? If someone wants to virtually log it into a cache in Singapore, there is always that "move to previous location" button. IMHO it is not as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be.

Besides I am collecting geocoins as signature items (or of personal interest), NOT travelbugs. What is the difference? To me, it is only $1.50. Nothing more.

Play the game your way. I am not in competition with anyone else out there (aside from getting in a purchase of an LE).

Groundspeak could stop selling tracking numbers today but it would definately NOT kill geocoins.

December 8, 2005

I had one of mine locked. It was a "Virtual Coin for Virtual Caches" that I loged into virtuals. It was origianlly a USA Geocoin that got stolen from the first cache it was droped in. Now Groundspeak as good as stole the number. No warning, no explanation. Nothing. I guess that's the kind of abritrary excercise of power one would expect from a monopoly.

1.5k · December 8, 2005

A lot of people spend a lot of their own time working on this site and geocaching, I don't think slamming them and the "monopoly" comments are necessary. It's their deal, we are merely players and nobody is being forced to play. Just like any company, it's not a democracy and we don't need to use their "services" if we don't want to. Let's just be happy for all that they do for us.

December 8, 2005

I kind of liked just having the Moun10Bike icon! It would of kept things simple. The way I see the Icon status changed the whole spirit of the geocoin sig item ultra cool swag.

I wish it would go back to the way it use to be.

Pepper

I completely agree Pepper. I haven't barely been on the natioanl threads lately, it's been tough to keep up with all the new coins being minted, and I think that's due in part to having new icon coins popping up left and right.

I used to think it'd be cool to get a complete set of icons, but the more coins that come out, the less my pocketbook will have in it to keep purchasing them. Still, that only gets me an icon on the items owned side, good luck finding a geocoin actually in a cache to get an icon on the found side (hence probably why trading numbers is popular).

I'll have to rethink my collecting habits after I get my personal coin minted and make trades for it.

December 8, 2005

I had one of mine locked. It was a "Virtual Coin for Virtual Caches" that I loged into virtuals. It was origianlly a USA Geocoin that got stolen from the first cache it was droped in. Now Groundspeak as good as stole the number. No warning, no explanation. Nothing. I guess that's the kind of abritrary excercise of power one would expect from a monopoly.

Can they legally do that? Obviously it is not worth the legal fees to find out. You bought the coin and the number. I do not recall any license agreement with travelbugs.

When you buy tracking numbers for coins I would imagine that there are some hoops that must be jumped through, but when we buy the coins there are no restrictions of use that I know of. Interesting.

December 8, 2005

... I get my personal coin minted and make trades for it.

I'll trade you my personal for your personal.

December 8, 2005

I didn't follow the whole discussion but I would like to say something about virtual logging of coins or TBs as well.

Some virtual TBs are just fun. As long as they are an exception I look at them as a funny variation of real TBs and that's it. But I wouldn't miss them if they shouldn't be allowed anymore.

With the virtual logging of coins it seems a bit different to me. Of course the virtual logging is for the icons. We live in Germany and the only coin beside a "normal" US geocoin that we found in a cache was a Canadian coin which wasn't trackable on gc.com, a German Geocoin and a moun10bike coin about two years ago. For that one we drove hundreds of miles and walked about 5 miles around a lake until we found it at 8 a.m. in a cache (got up at 4 to be sure nobody would be there before us). Great hunt. We took it to Berlin and released it in a very special and difficult cache that we created. But that was it. Never saw another rare geocoin again.

Then these beautiful coins with very attractive icons caught our attention. But none of them ever seemed to find its way into a German cache. We watched for a while and then we saw others logging virtually and we thought: ah well, if that's a common practice with very special coins we might do that as well. It will at least give us the beautiful icon if we have no chance to get hold of that coin. Then we also started to buy coins to let others log some of our coins in return. It was fun and we didn't think any further about this.

Meanwhile we've had an Ohio geocoin in our hands and took it to the next cache. And we enjoyed it much more than a virtual log. In fact we are starting to get fed up with virtual logs and sometimes we wish we wouldn't have started doing it. Then again - it's just a game and everyone should have fun. If people enjoy logging virtual coins, so what? We probably stop it now and just log coins that we've actually had in our hands. At least there are a lot of coins in Germany now. And if we can't find any in caches we'll have to find the owners... (just kidding)

And as some people might have noticed: yess, we've become addicts as well...

1.2k · December 8, 2005

I guess that's the kind of abritrary excercise of power one would expect from a monopoly.

Bravo. I thought I was the only one who felt that way.

December 8, 2005

It kinda sounds a lot like "I'm taking my toys and going home!"

Geocaching and how it evolves and what it means to the people who play the GAME (because after all that's all it is), should not be regulated. Would I log a coin virtually - I guess technically I have, but the one's I have, I know I am going to see the owner within a week or so.

Coins bring in far too much money for him to say no more coins. And, considering the whole Jeep thing, it would be hypocritical.

December 8, 2005

I have a solution to virtual logging just to get the icon in your profile. They could change the profile appearance to one that would show ALL the icons in EVERYONE'S profile, on both sides. But those that you never found/owned, would have a zero next to them.

December 8, 2005

I have a solution to virtual logging just to get the icon in your profile. They could change the profile appearance to one that would show ALL the icons in EVERYONE'S profile, on both sides. But those that you never found/owned, would have a zero next to them.

i would go for that.

2.1k · December 9, 2005

I don't want all of those icons...I want icons for caches, and coins, and TBs that I have actually found and touched...anything else is clutter.

jamie

Geocoins May Come To An End

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