Women Who Cache Alone

[silverwolfe]

The official 'gun experts' would have to give the statistics/technique advice on the 'bear' issue - perhaps in a seperate "self-defense" thread so other's could learn?

 

I'm not recommending shooting (bears, or others) - there are many considerations to it, and if you miss - dang, you've got an extremely strong, agile angry animal coming at you VERY quickly - same w/a 'whacko' human.

 

I was just referring to yes, guns & all forms of defense can be effective tools when needed and correctly used - right technique/time/place - depending on the individual's abilities and needs....

 

bear story is off-topic... a rogue bear, transplanted to our neighborhood, aggressive at humans.....

 

edited: my (holds water back) word was replaced w/odd word, replaced w/dang....

Edited December 8, 2005 by silverwolfe

[+CamoCacher]

PS:  I'm not opposed to guns for protection or family hunting.  One protected me from an aggressive bear quite nicely....

Can you share the details about this? I have had a debate about whether a handgun wouldprotect you from somehting like this. A friend has said "No way a little handgun is gonna stop a big aggressive bear! You're just gonna make it mad." My thinking is that even such a loud "unnatural" noise might startle the bear enough to reconsider an attack and he might just leave you alone. I also believe that if this is not true, and you need to shoot the bear, that a well-placed shot from a handgun would drop a bear. But I really have no idea if this is correct!

KamaRaga I think it would depend on the type of bear you encounter. A polar, brown, black or grizzly. Each has its own natural way. Browns and Polars are more likely to attack esp if you run. Of course if its a momma with cubs then bets are all off they will defend like you wouldn't believe.

 

Wild animals are another reason I prefer the dog. He's more likely to scare them off from even approaching, same for the 2 legged type.

[+jackratt]

I am a man but once my 14 year old daughter and I took a 4 mile hike to a cache at the top of a small mountain. Based on the lack of vehicles in the parking area I figured we were OK but when we got up there (and I was really struggling 'cause I'm out of shape) there were a couple of pretty inebriated guys who got there via an ATV. They were barbequeing, drinking and kept eyeing her; I was a nervous wreck. Turns out everything was fine and they turned out to be friendly but that was a long way from help if we needed it. Gave us something to talk about father-to-daughter and gave me a new perspective.

[+1stimestar]

It's just a delusion to think that a woman is going to be able to whip out a gun and defend herself.

Hahaha. Ok, I know that being in Alaska where it is legal (and often encouraged) to carry, even concealed without any permit is a bit different then the lower 48. Around here if you meet someone on the trail they more then likely have a shotgun slung over their shoulder, or in areas of high bear activity, actually in hand. I don't encorage ANYONE to just go out and buy a gun. You must learn how to use it and you must PRACTICE with it on a fairly regular basis in order to be comfortable, quick, and confidant with it. So there is no "whipping out" of gun, gun is already out and available. Same goes for bear spray. It's not kept in your back pack. It's kept in a holster on your belt, very quick to access it.

Edited December 9, 2005 by 1stimestar

[+1stimestar]

I am a man but once my 14 year old daughter and I took a 4 mile hike to a cache at the top of a small mountain. Based on the lack of vehicles in the parking area I figured we were OK but when we got up there (and I was really struggling 'cause I'm out of shape) there were a couple of pretty inebriated guys who got there via an ATV. They were barbequeing, drinking and kept eyeing her; I was a nervous wreck. Turns out everything was fine and they turned out to be friendly but that was a long way from help if we needed it. Gave us something to talk about father-to-daughter and gave me a new perspective.

That WOULD be scary. I'd feel much more comfortable having a gun in that situation then knowing karate. But that's just me.

[adampierson]

This is always a touchy subject. My advice is.

 

1) Try to avoid putting yourself in a bad situation. The best weapon you have is your brain. I know it sound like a cliche, but consider this. Everyone of us has wired in our brain the will to survive... it is a natural instinct. It is there, whether you want to admit it or not. Whether you believe God made it a part of you or it is some innate trait, it is there. However political correctness... fear of offending or hurting someone's feelings have conditioned us to ignore our instincts because we don't want to be "prejudiced". Consider the situation you're in... you're a female alone... in the outdoors. Would you rather be safe to return to your loved ones or worried about worried about being preceived as "prejudiced".

 

2) If you can't avoid a potential threat to you, then your next line of defence would be any number the items or techniques posted by others.

 

As far as women caching alone? It's up to you... but keep in mind, there is safety in numbers. There are no guarantees...

 

Take risks have fun, but like everything in life.. there is a cost.

[+Nerves]

Experience is a harsh teacher and we each develop our own set of rules accordingly.

[+reveritt]

It's just a delusion to think that a woman is going to be able to whip out a gun and defend herself.

Hahaha. Ok, I know that being in Alaska where it is legal (and often encouraged) to carry, even concealed without any permit is a bit different then the lower 48. Around here if you meet someone on the trail they more then likely have a shotgun slung over their shoulder, or in areas of high bear activity, actually in hand. I don't encorage ANYONE to just go out and buy a gun. You must learn how to use it and you must PRACTICE with it on a fairly regular basis in order to be comfortable, quick, and confidant with it. So there is no "whipping out" of gun, gun is already out and available. Same goes for bear spray. It's not kept in your back pack. It's kept in a holster on your belt, very quick to access it.

The quote in the post I am quoting appears to attribute a statement to me, but that is an editing error. I never said it--Nerves did.

[+golfdiva]

Two more of my cents worth!

 

Lock you car door when you leave it!

 

Pay attention to your "gut". I read a book written by an FBI criminal profiler and he said your gut feeling is real. Your subconscious picks up on things that you are not aware of (a different shadow, unusual movement, etc) and turns that into fear. You should not ignore it!

[+Geo Ho]

So, now I cache with my sweet Mopar . . .

"Sweet Mopar" ... aah, thats so cute. And all along I thought he smelled like motor oil and gun powder solvent.

He DOES!!! Rowr!

 

[+1stimestar]

It's just a delusion to think that a woman is going to be able to whip out a gun and defend herself.

Hahaha. Ok, I know that being in Alaska where it is legal (and often encouraged) to carry, even concealed without any permit is a bit different then the lower 48. Around here if you meet someone on the trail they more then likely have a shotgun slung over their shoulder, or in areas of high bear activity, actually in hand. I don't encorage ANYONE to just go out and buy a gun. You must learn how to use it and you must PRACTICE with it on a fairly regular basis in order to be comfortable, quick, and confidant with it. So there is no "whipping out" of gun, gun is already out and available. Same goes for bear spray. It's not kept in your back pack. It's kept in a holster on your belt, very quick to access it.

The quote in the post I am quoting appears to attribute a statement to me, but that is an editing error. I never said it--Nerves did.

Oops sorry Reveritt. I'll go fix it.

[Hugh Jazz]

And all along I thought he smelled like motor oil and gun powder solvent. 

He DOES!!! Rowr!

 

Oh please, someone post the "briansnat retching up a mouthful of squid" photo. I need something to rid my mind's eye of this whole Mopar / Oil / Solvent thread.

[+Team Red Oak]

For the most part I can't cache alone, not because I don't want to, I just can't. Occasionally I'll find a cache I can stop by on the way home from work and if I see it is in what seems to be a safe area I'll get out of my car and look. But normally I end up driving away. I envy all of you who can cache solo, when I was a kid I always went into the woods alone to hike and I loved the peace and quiet.

 

In 1985 I lived in Texas and I worked at a mall. The store I worked at was a larger retail store and stayed open until 10:00 during the holiday season. One night I had to close, I clocked out and I was right behind a group of co-workers but when I got to the parking lot they were all gone. The only thing I can think is that they had someone waiting to pick them up (they were older women).

 

So I found myself on the curb alone looking across the parking lot at my car parked near a light. I didn't see anyone else. I thought of turning back, but the door had already closed behind me and was locked so no one could enter from the outside and I didn't recall anyone else behind me so I took note of my surroundings. I saw Cheryl's car was still in the parking lot even though I knew she was already gone, then I saw her sitting in the passenger seat of a car parked right in front of my car but backed in. There was a small barrier with a tree between our cars but I could see the parking lights of the car she was in were on.

 

So I stepped off the curb and started to walk to my car. I don't know where the guy came from but he was soon behind me and I knew he was there before I saw or heard him. So I slowed down to let him pass me. He did pass me and I noticed there were other vehicles parked farther down the row so I turned towards my car and unlocked the door. Next thing I know I am being shoved into my car and I am being told to shut up and I won't get hurt (yeah right!).

 

He was trying to push me into the passenger seat, but the stick shift was against the small of by back. Somehow I had managed to turn and face him. I tried kicking him in the nutz but kept missing although I was kicking him. I was screaming and then my right hand came free enough to honk my horn which I did over and over. Finally the guy stopped and I jumped out of my car. I think he stopped because Cheryl and her boyfriend finally heard the horn and got out of the car. I was screaming and the guy ran to a light blue ford pick up truck. Cheryl ran to me and her boyfriend jumped back into his car and gave chase.

 

In the end the guy was never caught and the police said they would file this as a sexual assault even though nothing happened. As they said - what else would his intentions have been.

 

So had I been packing I would not have been able to reach it in the cramped space I was in. Possibly mace would have helped if I had been carrying it in my hand. Since this was before remote entry I probably would have stuck the mace in my coat pocket while I unlocked my car door. What helped me? Just plain fighting back.

 

To this day I sometimes have a terrible problem with people walking up behind me when I am alone. There doesn't seem to be any trigger to my behavior. One day I'll be fine walking somewhere alone and a week later I'll try to walk the same place and I'll be almost crippled with fear. The day after Thanksgiving I did manage to go into the woods alone to take coords for a spot we want to place a cache. But after a while I started getting spooked and it was all I could do not to run like heck outta there and back to my car.

 

Why do I bother telling this horrible story? Just to emphasize that no matter what you have with you, I think you're only going to get out of a situation with your wits and your ability to fight back. Being prepared is always a good idea carry anything that makes you feel safer. But there is no guarentee you'll be able to use your weapon of choice. Also my story shows the 'you're more likely to be attacked in mall parking lot theory'.

[Mach-1 & Redtail]

My decision to carry pepper spray was mostly to appease the men in my life. I took a training class at the local police department on how to properly use this tool. As with any personal defense tool, there are pros and cons and they should be researched thoroughly. I mostly envision having to use the spray on an aggressive dog. I am not comfortable carrying a gun and that is my personal decision. I also carry a machete, hatchet, chainsaw and various other equipment as part of my job. I'm sure I must look a little scary

 

I think the bigger concern for ANYONE caching alone should be personal first aid. Do you know what to do if you are injured and a mile from help? Do you carry things in your pack that could be improvised as first aid equipment? I always carry zip lock baggies and bandannas...sounds silly but they could save my life. I highly recommend taking a wilderness first aid course. I can splint my own leg or dress a sucking chest wound if I needed to!

 

If I can ever figure out how to do it, I'll post a pic of the tree that almost got me. And yes, it made a lot of noise as it fell.

[+MsChief Gps_y]

what an interesting thread and comments. I think the most important thing is to honour ( yes I'm Canadian) your gut feelings if they come up. Over and over this advice is stressed. If for any reason, at any level, you feel uneasy, leave immediately. Do not dismiss yourself as being silly or talk yourself out of your uneasy feelings....Leave.

But sometimes no matter how much preparation and awareness things happen.

I've had one scary experience caching. It was on a beautiful sunny afternoon in an urban park across from housing. One of a group of 5 twentyish males suddenly charged me and before I could do anything had me by the knees and up in the air swinging me around. Turns out they were drinking beer and feeling humourous... they thought I was "cute". (ha, shows how much they'd been drinking!). But it could have turned out differently. I took that as a reminder wake-up call and now always cache with a dog(s).

[+Arrow One]

I cache alone sometimes, and as a woman, I am always aware of my surroundings, and people around me. I trust my "gut" feelings, and I live by one motto.... "When in doubt, get the H*LL Out!"

[+The_Sentinel_]

Obviously phones do not deter creeps. You need something stronger. Dru was old enough to have legally carried a concealed handgun. Instead she carried a cellphone.

Not everyone feels the need or or even feels comfortable carrying a gun.

 

From the things you have said in this thread (and your avatar too!!) you seem to be quite the gun fanatic.

[+Geo Froggy]

I think it is amusing and also very sweet that many of the men on this site see woman as fragile, meek, creatures that need the protection of either a male companion or a gun.

 

I’ve been reading this forum for over a year and feel certain that the women who post to this site, and cache alone, are confident, self assured and alert without a meek bone in their bodies. I also suspect that any predator who mistakes one of us as easy prey will be in for a big surprise. I agree that this is probably not true of all women in general, as we know all too well the stories of women who go with killers and do what they are told in hostile situations, but I don’t think this is true of the women on this board.

 

I just received this in an email and thought it worth posting even though it is just general safety tips and does not relate to caching in the woods..

Refresh yourself of these things to do in an emergency situation...This is for you, and for you to share with your wife, your children, everyone you know.

 

1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do: The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it.

 

2. If a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM. Toss it away from you....chances are that he is more interested in your wallet and/or purse than you, and he will go for the wallet/purse. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!

 

3. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car, kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and start waving like crazy. The driver won't see you, but everybody else will. This has saved lives.

 

4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their checkbook, or making a list, etc. DON'T DO THIS!) The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put a gun to your head, and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.

 

a. If someone is in the car with a gun to your head DO NOT DRIVE OFF, repeat: DO NOT DRIVE OFF! Instead gun the engine and speed into anything, wrecking the car. Your Air Bag will save you. If the person is in the back seat they will get the worst of it. As soon as the car crashes bail out and run. It is better than having them find your body in a remote location.

 

5. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage:

A.) Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor, and in the back seat

B.) If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars.

C.) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out.

 

6. ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs. (Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot. This is especially true at NIGHT!)

 

7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; And even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN, Preferably ! in a zig -zag pattern!

 

8. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP. It may get you raped, or killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good-looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked "for help" into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim.

 

9. Another Safety Point: Someone just told me that her friend heard a crying baby on her porch , and she called the police because it was late and she thought it was weird. The police told her "Whatever you do, DO NOT open the door."

The lady then said that it sounded like the baby had crawled near a window, and she was worried that it would crawl to the street and get run over. The policeman said, "We already have a unit on the way, whatever you do, DO NOT open the door." He told her that they think a serial killer has a baby's cry recorded and uses it to coax women out of their homes thinking that someone dropped off a baby He said they have not verified it, but have had several calls by women saying that they hear baby's cries outside their doors when they're home alone at night.

[+Mopar]

I just received this in an email and thought it worth posting even though it is just general safety tips and does not relate to caching in the woods..

                                                                                                                      Refresh yourself of these  things to do in an emergency situation...This is for you,  and for you to share with your wife, your children, everyone you know.

 

1. Tip  from Tae Kwon Do: The elbow is the strongest point on  your body. If you are close enough to use it.                   

 

2.  If a  robber asks for your wallet and/or purse, DO NOT HAND IT  TO HIM. Toss it away from you....chances are that he is  more interested in your wallet and/or purse than you,  and he will go for the wallet/purse. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE  OTHER DIRECTION!

 

3. If you  are ever thrown into the trunk of a car, kick out the  back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and  start waving like crazy. The driver won't see you, but everybody else will. This has saved lives.

 

4. Women  have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping,  eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their checkbook, or making a list, etc. DON'T DO THIS!) The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect  opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put  a gun to your head, and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS  YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS AND  LEAVE.

 

a. If someone is in the car with a gun to your head DO NOT DRIVE OFF,  repeat: DO NOT DRIVE OFF! Instead gun the engine and  speed into anything, wrecking the car. Your Air Bag will  save you. If the person is in the back seat they will  get the worst of it. As soon as the car crashes bail out  and run. It is better than having them find your body in  a remote location.

 

5. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking  garage:

A.)  Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor, and in the back seat

B.) If  you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from  the passenger door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women  are attempting to get into their cars.

C.) Look at the car parked on  the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or  work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out.

 

6. ALWAYS take the elevator  instead of the stairs. (Stairwells are horrible places  to be alone and the perfect crime spot. This is especially true at NIGHT!)

 

7. If  the predator has a gun and you are not under his  control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a  running target) 4 in 100 times; And even then, it most  likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN, Preferably ! in a  zig -zag pattern!

 

8. As women, we are always  trying to be sympathetic: STOP. It may get you raped, or  killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a  good-looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a  cane, or a limp, and often asked "for help" into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted  his next victim.

                   

                     

9.  Another Safety Point: Someone just told me that her friend heard a crying baby on her porch , and she called the police because it was late and  she thought it was weird. The police told her "Whatever  you do, DO NOT open the door."

The lady then said that it sounded like the baby had crawled near a window, and she was worried that it would crawl to the  street and get run over. The policeman said, "We already have a unit on the way, whatever you do, DO NOT open the door." He told her that they think a serial  killer has a baby's cry recorded and uses it to coax women out of their homes thinking that someone dropped off a baby  He said they have not verified it, but have had several calls by women saying that they hear baby's  cries outside their doors when they're home alone at night.

I was trying to refrain from further posts in this thread, but I can't let this sort of mostly bad info go without comment. I'll leave my personal opinions totally out of this and just quote snopes.com:

Regarding the nine tips the e-mailed list has currently devolved to:

1. Tip from Tae Kwon Do: The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it, do!

This is poor advice in that it recommends a course of action far more likely to result in the victim's being physically harmed than do other potential counters such as running away and screaming for help. Engaging in hand-to-hand combat with an attacker should be an option of last resort unless you are very well trained in self-defense.

 

While the elbow is one of your body parts that can be used effectively in a fight, it is not the strongest — that honor goes to the humble knee.

2. If a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM. Toss it away from you....chances are that he is more interested in your wallet and/or purse than you, and he will go for the wallet/purse. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!

This ploy would likely work if the assailant's objective were robbery, but if he were intent upon kidnapping, rape, murder, or simple assault, throwing your handbag away would do nothing other than rid you of an item you could have used as a weapon.

3. If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car, kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and start waving like crazy. The driver won't see you, but everybody else will. This has saved lives.

The odds of being confined in the trunk of a car are slim to begin with, and they lessen when the extra requirement of the victim's being placed in there with hands and feet unbound is added. Very few vehicles have tail lights that are accessible from the trunk, so even if one's legs were free, there would be nothing to kick out to wave at others through.

 

A better plan would be to look for the glow-in-the-dark trunk release tab incorporated into some newer vehicles. Also, the back seats of many recent models fold down to accomodate the transport of larger items, so go deep into the trunk and push on the rear of the back seats to see if they open. If pushing fails, feel about on this area for knobs or levers that serve to latch the folding seat backs in place and work them.

4. Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their checkbook, or making a list, etc. DON'T DO THIS!) The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put a gun to your head, and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.

A good habit to get into is immediately locking your car's doors as soon as you are in your vehicle. Train yourself so that it becomes one smooth motion that you don't even have to think about — your rump's landing on the seat should trigger your hand to reach out and hit the lock button. The tips list's assessment of the behavior of women who have just entered their cars is unfortunately accurate: most women we've observed do indeed settle their purses on the passenger seats, sling briefcases, jackets, and packages into the back seat area, get out their car keys, rummage about in their handbags for various items (e.g., lipstick, cell phone, address book) which they might or might not use right then, put their keys in the ignition, fasten their seat belts and only then get around to locking their doors. During that interval they are indeed vulnerable to someone's getting into the car with them or pulling open the driver's side door.

 

Driving away immediately rather than taking a moment to make out this year's Christmas card list is advice worthy of following in any parking garage (because the structure prevents others not in your immediate area from seeing what might be happening at your car) and in any open air parking lot that is somewhat deserted rather than teeming with other folks coming and going.

a. If someone is in the car with a gun to your head DO NOT DRIVE OFF, repeat: DO NOT DRIVE OFF! Instead gun the engine and speed into anything, wrecking the car. Your Air Bag will save you. If the person is in the back seat they will get the worst of it. As soon as the car crashes bail out and run. It is better than having them find your body in a remote location.

If the assailant has gotten into the passenger seat, the passenger's side air bag (which is a standard feature in many newer model cars) will also protect him from the crash. Another plan would be to drive him to a police station rather than to where he orders you to go, reminding him that if he shoots you, the car will veer out of control and hit something, which will injure or kill him too.

5. A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage:

A.) Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor, and in the back seat.

Another good habit to adopt is taking a moment before going to your car to look about and see who else is around. Pause for a few seconds to judge your surroundings rather than unthinkingly heading for your vehicle with your eyes down and your mind occupied with other matters. Once your arrive at your vehicle, but before entering it, do give its back seat a quick glance to ensure no one is hiding there.

 

 

B.) I f you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most serial killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars.

Most serial killers do not grab women from parking lots and thrust them into vans; they hunt for potential victims according to their personal killing rituals, with each murderer following his own personal script. Some drive about looking for lone hitchhikers. Others seek out solitary travelers who have paused in their journeys to use the facilities at rest areas along the interstate highways. Others go after late night gas station and convenience store clerks who are working alone and unprotected. Yet others troll areas known to be frequented by streetwalkers, presenting themselves as customers interested in buying the prostitutes' services. Others break into houses they have minutes or hours earlier seen their desired victims enter. Some place ads in newspapers, luring their victims to them with promises of great bargains on desired items or offers of employment. Yet others frequent lonely spots that have personal meaning to them, preying upon whoever attempts to traverse these areas. Each serial killer has his own method of acquiring victims, and it is unique unto him.

C.) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out.

The proferred advice makes the assumption that every man sitting in a car parked next to yours is a would-be attacker. Rather than assume every fellow who finished shopping before his wife did is an abductor lying in wait and scurry back to the mall to get a guard or police officer to see you safely past this menace, continue toward your vehicle as you normally would, but stay alert to the perception of sudden movement from the direction of the suspect parked car or the sound of that car's door opening.

 

If while unlocking the driver's side door of your own car you hear behind your turned back the door open on the vehicle you're parked beside, kick backwards into that other door and scream, then launch yourself into your own car, lock its doors, and drive off. Almost certainly, rather than escaping an attacker who was making a grab for you, you will be giving some poor innocent fellow the shock of his life, but that will have to be the price he pays for opening his door when you were trying to get into yours, which is in itself a suspicious activity.

 

Yet the question is mostly academic because someone trolling for a victim is highly unlikely to be doing so via waiting patiently within his own vehicle for whoever was parked beside him to return. He could be left twiddling his thumbs for hours only to discover his intended target comes back accompanied by three friends she met up with inside. Even if the gal returns alone, there's no guarantee she won't do so during one of those moments when the lot is awash with other people getting in and out of their cars and thus at a time when no attacker would dare make a move for risk of being interfered with.

6. ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs. (Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot. This is especially true at NIGHT!)

Stairwells are far less trafficked than other public areas of buildings, which does make them more risky places to traverse. When taking the stairs alone, stay alert to the presence of others rather than allowing yourself to become lost in your thoughts and so losing focus on your surroundings. When at all uncertain about the behavior of someone else in the stairwell, exit onto the nearest floor. Never use a stairwell unaccompanied where the doors lock behind you, thereby preventing you from exiting anywhere other than the ground-floor egress.

 

Elevators also pose risk, but since they are better trafficked and more public, the possibility of being harmed while using one is much reduced. Even so, don't get into an elevator car unaccompanied if at all uncertain of the car's occupants — if something strikes you as not quite right, wait for the next car.

7. If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; And even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN, Preferably in a zig-zag pattern!

We don't know the origin of the "will only hit you 4 in 100 times" claim — it's not a statistic we're familiar with. Lack of familiarity aside, common sense would tell us to mistrust the statement that a gun-wielding bad guy hits what he's aiming at only once out of 25 times.

 

If you do choose to run in such situations, up your chances of getting away unharmed by first misdirecting your assailant before making your dash for safety. "Hey, what's that over there?!?!?" might buy you that extra split second that makes all the difference, as might throwing your purse or briefcase at the head of the guy holding the gun, because his instinctive response would be to duck or flinch. If you run, do indeed zig-zag because you will be harder for him to line up in his sights than if you race off in a straight trajectory.

8. As women, we are always trying to be sympathetic: STOP. It may get you raped, or killed. Ted Bundy, the serial killer, was a good-looking, well educated man, who ALWAYS played on the sympathies of unsuspecting women. He walked with a cane, or a limp, and often asked "for help" into his vehicle or with his vehicle, which is when he abducted his next victim.

While Ted Bundy did trick some of his victims into going with him by appearing injured and in need of assistance (e.g., arm in a sling and attempting to hoist a canoe onto the roof of his car), he picked up others while they were hitchhiking, and others he attacked in their homes while they were sleeping — there was no "ALWAYS" about his methodology. Bundy is regarded by those who study criminals as a highly unusual serial killer because he was intelligent, charming, had well-honed people skills, and varied his mode of securing victims. It is therefore a mistake to assess the threat posed by those who murder random victims for the thrill of it by using Ted Bundy as a yardstick.

 

However, it is not a mistake to keep in mind people aren't always what they appear to be and that someone who looks disabled or encumbered might well be entirely able-bodied. Stay alert when you are around strangers, always allowing for the possibility of being the target of deception rather than letting yourself be lulled into a false sense of security by the other party's apparent limitations.

9. Another Safety Point: Someone just told me that her friend heard a crying baby on her porch the night before last, and she called the police because it was late and she thought it was weird. The police told her "Whatever you do, DO NOT open the door."

A more lengthy debunking of the "crying baby" lure can be found on our page devoted to that hoax, but in a nutshell: no serial killer used that ruse, and the story about helpful policemen who instructed the woman who heard such cries to stay inside and not open her door is fiction. The "audio tape of a baby's cries used by a murderer to draw women from their homes" fabrication was born of the anxiety surrounding the hunt for the Baton Rouge serial killer in 2002. That case was profiled on America's Most Wanted in September 2002 and again in January 2003, but neither airing made any mention of the purported "crying baby" theory.

 

While we've hopefully assisted readers in making sense of which of the nine tips contain good advice that should be followed and which should be regarded as codswallop, our efforts to sort them out aside, we would still hate to see this list circulated any further because of the overall tenor of its recommendations, which is to make like Wonder Woman or Captain America when confronted by someone intent upon doing you harm. As stated earlier, engaging in hand-to-hand combat with an attacker should be an option of last resort unless you are very well trained in self-defense. Rather, here are two options that should be exercised first: If attacked or threatened, run, and if you can't run, scream. (Even if no one comes to your assistance, your attacker may very well turn tail and get out of there, figuring the noise you're making is attracting attention to him and that others will now remember his face.)

 

A far better counter is to avoid becoming the victim of random violent crime in the first place, which these next tips will help with:

 

Avoid potentially dangerous places. The more isolated and devoid of other people a location is, the more potentially dangerous it is. Hence, stairwells are more perilous than elevators, underground parking garages more risky a proposition than open air parking lots. As a general rule of thumb, anywhere other people aren't is a good place for you not to be either.

 

One mistake folks do make time and again is letting their sense of familiarity with a place lull them into a presumption of security. More simply, though you may know the parking lot at the local grocery store like the back of your hand and have never experienced any problems there, you should still regard it as a potentially dangerous location if your plan is to park there at midnight on a Sunday while you reprogram the buttons on your car's radio. A location that can be perfectly innocuous during the day when there are all sorts of other people around is not necessarily just as safe in the dead of night when the place is empty.

 

Stay aware of your surroundings. Get into the habit of noticing not only the details of your physical surroundings (such as where exits are located) but who else is there with you. Maintain focus on the here and now instead of letting it drift to where and what you will be doing ten minutes from now. If trying to do two things at once, strive to stay alert to what is going on around you. Rather than wander towards your car with your head down while you're yakking on your cell phone, take a break from the conversation to look about. The same goes for getting into an elevator — look at the other people in the car before getting in yourself.

 

Also, as stated in "Assaulted Tale" (our debunking of a widely-circulated list about what rapists supposedly look for), not only is it important to see trouble coming before it gets to you and avoid it, but an alert stance can help discourage a would-be attacker. Those looking to prey upon others — whether their aim is robbery, rape, or mayhem — generally choose as victims those who appear preoccupied or tentative in preference to those who exude a sense of purpose. Or, as I was told long ago, "Always look like you know exactly where you're going and move like you're expected to be there at exactly a certain time." Mooning about aimlessly can make you a statistic.

 

Do not get into vehicles with strangers or allow them into yours. A murderer is not going to approach you by saying, "Hi, I'm interested in killing you; please get into my car." Rather, it's going to be, "Please, miss — can you help me? My little boy has been in an accident and I have to get to the hospital but I can't find the place. No, don't give me directions because I'll just get turned around; come with me — I'll pay for a cab to get you back here afterwards." Or, "I'm the new minister in town. My car broke down a few miles back, so I walked here to call the tow truck. Can you give me a lift back to my car? My wife is there, and I don't like leaving her out there all alone for any longer than I have to, her being pregnant and all."

 

Also, be wary of helping strangers when you are unaccompanied. Don't help them load packages into vans or trot over to them like a good little Girl Scout when summoned to give directions by someone you don't know. Save your helpful impulses for when you have other people with you, but when on your own keep walking even as you call, "Nope, sorry, can't" back over your shoulder.

 

Do not let strangers into your home. If someone appears at your door saying his car quit running and he needs to call a tow truck, offer through the closed door to make the call for him. If he says his wife is ill and asks if he can have a glass of water for her, offer, once again through the closed door, to call 911 for him. If someone dressed in work clothes says he's been sent by the building superintendent, your home owners association, the electric company, the city, or anything else, leave him standing outside until you've called that entity and ascertained that it has sent that person and does indeed vouch for him.

 

The world is not awash with rapists, murderers, thieves, and kidnappers, but a bit of common sense routinely applied can help you avoid meeting up with any of the handful that are actually out there. Rather than fret about how to properly throw an elbow, or whether you should run from someone holding a gun on you, or how to crash a car into a barrier so as to incapacitate an attacker but leave yourself unharmed, learn these three tips by heart: Keep away from deserted places, stay alert to what is going on around you, and when something feels the slightest bit wrong, get out of there. While there's nothing of Lynda Carter or Steven Seagal in those three tips, they will serve to keep you out of a pine box far better than all the more flashy "saw it on the Lifetime Movie of the Week" moves put together.

Edited December 11, 2005 by Mopar

[Hugh Jazz]

Not everyone feels the need or or even feels comfortable carrying a gun.

 

From the things you have said in this thread (and your avatar too!!) you seem to be quite the gun fanatic.

Guns are simply one tool in your self-defense toolbox. Nothing more, nothing less. You choose what tool you're trained and comfortable with and you accept the consequences of that choice.

 

For instance, in carpentry, I'm not comfortable using a circular saw. I'll use other types of saws, but circular saws just give me the heeby-jeebies. This limits what types of wood cuts I can make. I'm OK with the consequences of that choice.

 

BTW, Why do you think that my avatar makes me seem to be quite the gun fanatic? That's a picture of Hugh Masekela, holding a musical instrument. It's not like it's an 'assault horn' or anything.

[+The_Sentinel_]

Gotcha.... sorry.. my mistake.

 

My first post was made at work on a huge monitor running at a stupidly-high resolution.

 

Your avatar was heaps smaller and looked like a Hulk Hogan sort of guy with an ammo-belt wrapped around him... not unlike Rambo!

Edited December 11, 2005 by The_Sentinel_

[+Pepper]

I have been caching almost 4 years now and 50% of the time I've cached alone or with my twins girls (almost 12 now). I have never felt threatened or unsafe and I have found myself out in the wilderness many times. My biggest worrie while out alone has been taking a fall and not being able to get out! So far that has not happen. Yes I have fallen many times, but lucky for me I've never been hurt bad enough to not make it back to my car (which I always mark). I am very aware of my surroundings at all times, but if i were to be in a bad or threating situation I have often thought I'd be in trouble for sure. Yet those thoughts have never stopped me. Seems crazy actually!

 

just my few cents worth

 

Pepper

[+Cass River Cachers]

A safety instructor taught our girl scouts that our car keys can also be a good and effective weapon when individual keys are placed place between our fingers. Thats the way I walk out to my car and sometimes in the woods.

Edited December 11, 2005 by team vassar

[+Moose Mob]

I'm going to attempt to bring this thread into a more specific scenario. It would seem that if it's too general, then the responses are too general also. Lessons in self preservation are good, but I believe the OP was wondering if other women cached alone. (In case anyone didn't see it, there were quite a few "yes" answers buried in there.

 

Here's the scenario.

The park: 35 acres, mostly wooded with large trees and shrubs. River runs along the far end. It does not have a bad reputation, but you seem to recall a mugging there one night about 6 months ago. The only wild animals know here are rabbit. Your map shows there are 6 caches along a 2 mile loop trail that goes down to the river from the parking lot.

 

There are 5-6 vehicles parked in the parking lot. One is a rusty & beat up camper, There is also a guy taking his doberman out of the car to take it for a walk. It's 1:00 on a gorgeous afternoon.

 

Would you go alone?

Edited December 11, 2005 by Moose Mob

[Hugh Jazz]

A safety instructor taught our girl scouts that our car keys can also be a good and effective weapon when individual keys are placed place between our fingers.

You know, your instructor was absolutely right.

 

 

A 230lb dude hopped up on meth or PCP is going to wet his pants and run when confronted by a 130lb woman with a couple of keys sticking out between her knuckles. You see it on the news all the time, bad guys are constantly being repelled by women holding keys.

 

I'll be selling my Glock back to the gun store this afternoon. Going to ACE Hardware to get a fresh set of keys made. The new keys have sharper edges on 'em you know, not as worn down.

[+Geo Froggy]

I would go. In a public park I would expect to see a number of parked cars, and they wouldn’t raise any alarm bells with me. If this park were in Illinois, I would be more concerned about stepping in a steel leg trap than seeing a bad guy.

 

Mopar, thanks for doing the homework on the safety tips. I think that your list makes sense, but I also think that the list I posted does as well. In the instant of confrontation I doubt I’ll remember what I am suppose to do, but with either list I will know that it is important to resist and not go willingly with anyone.

 

BTW, If someone demands my purse, the odds are that is what they are after and giving it up makes sense to me.

[magellan315]

A safety instructor taught our girl scouts that our car keys can also be a good and effective weapon when individual keys are placed place between our fingers.

You know, your instructor was absolutely right.

 

 

A 230lb dude hopped up on meth or PCP is going to wet his pants and run when confronted by a 130lb woman with a couple of keys sticking out between her knuckles. You see it on the news all the time, bad guys are constantly being repelled by women holding keys.

 

I'll be selling my Glock back to the gun store this afternoon. Going to ACE Hardware to get a fresh set of keys made. The new keys have sharper edges on 'em you know, not as worn down.

Teaching people that they can use common items as weapon is highly useful as you are more likely to have them on hand than something specifically designed for self defense. And since the class in question was for girl scouts, I don't think you can get a carry permit if you are under 18. So for them this class is very useful. I see just as many stories about people fighting off someone with keys in the news as I do somone fighting off a criminal with a gun. Why not give the gun thing a rest, we all know how you feel and I wish you stop putting down every option that does not involve a gun.

 

Your example this time is no different from your multiple choice example on page 2 of this thread. An extreme example that only allows for a very specific "correct" answer. This thread is about how safe women feel caching in the woods alone, so far most of the comments have been that people do feel safe alone in the woods.

Edited December 11, 2005 by magellan315

[Sadie]

<...>I'll be selling my Glock back to the gun store this afternoon.<...>

--- inappropriate comment deleted ---

hee hee hee

Edited December 11, 2005 by Sadie

[+Cass River Cachers]

I don't Think I am going to give my 14 year old daughter a girl scout a

 

glock to go shopping with but she knows how to use one.

 

The jist of the training was these are the simple things that we carry everyday.

 

They were taught by a state police safety instructor to use everything they had

 

(Keys, purse, stick, knees and elbows fingernails, teeth ect.) to get away even if

 

assailant has a gun to be just as nuts at the person trying to harm them. I am not

 

against guns I have several each with its own purpose. There is a police statistic

 

that a lot of gun owners are killed trying to defend their home or person with their

 

OWN firearm as I was taught during a ccw permit class. YES, I do cache by myself

 

and with my children and once in awhile with my husband. No, I don't carry

 

anything but my GPS and set of car keys and trade items. I leave my firearm at

 

home.

Edited December 11, 2005 by team vassar

[+xtinkshun]

I cache alone quite often and the only nervous time I've had was when I was on a road that led to a jail facility sorta out in the sticks and some dude came walking down the road out of nowhere (well, probably from the jail). He didn't bother me and I didn't have to hurt him.

 

I do pack .380 when I'm caching in the hills though. I've had two encounters with mountain lions while hiking over the years (pre-cachin' days) and as a result, not willing to expedite the process of becoming cougar chow anytime soon.

 

The nice thing about SoCal is that majority of the caches are in high muggle areas so you just sorta blend in with the rest of the population, anyway.

[LettyN]

First of all, I live in Ireland, so no firearms here.

<br>

I cache alone some of the time. I always bring my dog (who is probably too sweet to do anything, but it may deter people). I always tell someone where I'm going, and how late I'll be back. I bring a fully charged mobile phone. I make sure the fuel tank is full. I bring water and food. I bring warm clothes. I should be bringing a first aid kit, that was a good tip a while back. I don't go out in the mountains if the weather is in any way doubtful. I must say I worry far more about falling and injuring myself than about any stray rapists/muggers, as Ireland is a relatively safe country, and the odds of meeting such people are tiny. Statistically, you run more risk of being mugged in town, and stranger rape is very rare in any case. Which is not to say it doesn't exist, however, if I were to take that kind of risk into account, I couldn't go anywhere on my own!

So far, I've had no problems and a ball! I must say that I prefer walking with others, as I like the feedback you get about the things you see. Don't be afraid to venture out on your own, just take extremely good care in the hills and mountains. Irish mountain rescue has had to come out very often lately, often for single male walkers and climbers.

[+Geo Froggy]

LettyN, good post!

 

I agree that the best answer is that life is a risk. Everyday we make choices about the risks we are willing to take, from crossing a street, to getting in a car or airplane, or stepping in a bathtub. I don’t think anyone one on this list would give someone hard time if they were afraid to fly, so I don’t understand why anyone would give someone a hard time who considers caching alone an acceptable risk.

[IT3]

Of course I may be overly paranoid considering my once daily exposure to the dirty underbelly of society.... but ss a former Law Enforcement Official I can can attest that there are dangers, both real and percieved, everywhere .. I do not go caching without my S&W .40 semi-auto in my waistband, nor would I let my wife go alone without her .38 snub-nose revolver on her.

[Hugh Jazz]

Good luck to you all. I'm outta here.

Too many ladies with keys here, kinda makes me nervous... I'm going outside.

[+xtinkshun]

LettyN, good post!

 

I agree that the best answer is that life is a risk. Everyday we make choices about the risks we are willing to take, from crossing a street, to getting in a car or airplane, or stepping in a bathtub. I don’t think anyone one on this list would give someone hard time if they were afraid to fly, so I don’t understand why anyone would give someone a hard time who considers caching alone an acceptable risk.

Froggy...you're absolutely right.

 

Most importantly than anything, we all just need to know our limitations and not do anything extreme and especially when alone.

 

There's been a few caches I've done that seemed simple but found myself on my butt after slipping on loose rocks. Nothing happened but you just never know. There are a lot of caches that I wouldn't do on my own - just because of terrain, etc.

 

At times it pays - safety in numbers.

[+Mopar]

[There is a police statistic that a lot of gun owners are killed trying to defend their home or person with their

OWN firearm as I was taught during a ccw permit class.

That is another urban legend that just wont die (pardon the pun). If it really was taught in your CCW class I feel sorry for you.

 

The stats are out there, and can be twisted almost any way you want. Yes, it's true of all gun homicide victims, 80 percent are relatives or acquaintances of the killer. That's the fact, Jack. If you let that fact stand alone, it slants things one way. What if you include the study of the victims of near-fatal domestic shootings and stabbings, 78 percent of the victims had a history of hard-drug use, and 16 percent admitted using heroin the day of the incident? What if you mention that in Detroit, for example, 75 percent of wives who shot and killed their husbands were not prosecuted, because the wives were legally defending themselves or their children? Doesn't that change the meaning of the first stat? When a gun is fired (or brandished) for legal self-defense in a home, the criminal attacker is much more likely to be a relative or acquaintance committing aggravated assault, rather than a total stranger committing a burglary. The fact the crime is being committed by someone you know doesn't lessen the crime, or it's possible effects on you.

 

Listen, a firearm is just a tool. It happens to be the most effective tool there is in some examples. It may be useless in other situations. It may even make matters worse sometimes.

If you are not trained, and/or not comfortable with using ANY tool, don't use it. Don't use a circular saw if you don't know how. Don't drive a car if you haven't had training (ie;got your DL) or are scared of it. Don't go scuba diving without training. Almost anything in life can be dangerous without proper understanding. Most of us are exposed to those dangers from the day we are born, so we don't think of how dangerous a pool, a bathtub, a stove, or a wall outlet can be until we have a new child. Someone who doesn't yet know these things can kill them. Firearms are no different. Statistically, they are much safer then cars or swimming pools.

The main things are be aware of your surroundings, and understand how to properly use the tools you have. A few posts up, the keys in the hand thing was poo-pooed. Guess what? I do it every day. I'm 5'11" and 225lbs (or more). I have other means of protection available to me. Still, why not? I have to carry my keys from the car to the front door anyway, why not carry them in such a way as to increase the effectiveness of my hands if that is the proper or only tool I can use at the moment?

Self defense involves a lot more then fighting or shooting. This goes the same for a woman alone, a man alone, or any combination in a group.

The proper sequence of a self-defense situation is:

• If you cannot prevent trouble, avoid it.
  
• If you cannot avoid it, defuse it.
  
• If you cannot defuse it, escape.
  
• If you cannot escape, then you may have to fight your way out of the situation.
  

Pretty much all disciplines of self defense have adopted the Cooper Code of awareness. (Named after Col. Jeff Cooper, founder of GunSite)

Condition White: You are unaware of what's going on around you. Perhaps you're tired, or worried about work or school. Maybe your senses are impaired by alcohol or drugs. Either way, you are not ready--for anything.

 

Condition Yellow: You are alert but calm and relaxed, scanning your surroundings for threats. You know who's in front of you, to your sides, and behind you. You don't think anyone will attack, but you are mentally ready in case something happens.

 

Condition Orange: You sense that something is not right, and that you might be attacked. Perhaps there's a number of suspicious men standing around your car. Or in the classic Jeff Cooper example, a guy wearing a raincoat comes into your shop on a sweltering summer day. What's wrong with this picture?

In Orange, you are aware of the positions of all potentially hostile people around you, as well as any weapons they may be able to use--in their hands or within reach. You are developing a plan for dealing with the potential hostiles: "...first I take out the guy with the bat, then the big guy near the truck..." You have also identified multiple escape routes, depending on what response you will use. In addition to being mentally ready, you are physically ready as well.

 

Condition Red: The fight is on. Someone is assaulting you and you are reacting to the attack and defending yourself. You are taking immediate and decisive action to stop your opponent, flee, or get help.

 

Some teachers add a Condition Black. That's where you are so overwhelmed and/or under-trained by the situation at hand that you mentally break down or panic. Totally out of control.

 

Unfortunately, geocaching tends to encourage Condition White. We're staring at the arrow on the GPS, totally unaware of what's going on. Unprepared to react to a wild animal, another person, or an obstacle in our way. Come on, what geocacher HASN'T tripped over a log/root/rock on the trail while concentrating on the GPS? I admit it, I have. Condition white should be reserved for at home; with the doors locked, alarm system on, and the dog by your side.

Out in the real world, we need to maintain at least condition yellow at all times. Not just in the parking lot, or on the trail. How many car accidents do you hear someone say "I never even saw him!". They aren't lying. Condition white.

Stay aware. Stay safe. Get some training. If nothing else it's usually good exercise, and it may save your life.

[+reveritt]

... Yes, it's true of all gun homicide victims, 80 percent are relatives or acquaintances of the killer. That's the fact, Jack. If you let that fact stand alone, it slants things one way. What if you include the study of the victims of near-fatal domestic shootings and stabbings, 78 percent of the victims had a history of hard-drug use, and 16 percent admitted using heroin the day of the incident? What if you mention that in Detroit, for example, 75 percent of wives who shot and killed their husbands were not prosecuted, because the wives were legally defending themselves or their children? Doesn't that change the meaning of the first stat? When a gun is fired (or brandished) for legal self-defense in a home, the criminal attacker is much more likely to be a relative or acquaintance committing aggravated assault, rather than a total stranger committing a burglary. ...

That doesn't surprise me at all, and it strongly suggests that those of us who do not live in a family where drug abuse or domestic violence are issues are not likely to need firearms to protect ourselves.

 

Those of us who do live in such a family may need to think about self-defense, but getting out of the situation might be an even better idea.

[+Moose Mob]

It seems that too many folks are bent on keeping this a conversation about guns.

 

If the OP or anyone else feels this should be left open, please contact me.

 

Thanks

Edited December 12, 2005 by Moose Mob

[+Miragee]

I live in Metro Atlanta and I occasionally cache alone.  I prefer to go with someone, but sometimes, I do only have the option to cache alone.  I think that my father and husband have convinced me to be very paranoid to the point that if the cache is not in an open space, say it is in urban woods, I am less likely to search for it, or if I do choose to search for it, less likely to find it because I am nervous.

 

Comments?  Experiences?

I went for a three-mile hike today, by myself.

 

I guess I'm lucky to not have a "father and husband (who) have convinced me to be very paranoid." As long as there is a cache to find, I will go looking for it.

 

If I don't like the area I find myself in however, I might not look for the cache, or I might not look for very long. Sometimes I'm not sure why someone picked the location where they placed their cache . . .

 

Not every cache needs to be found . . . but most of them do.