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Traps, Trappers And Trapping

Confucius' Cat

By Confucius' Cat
in General geocaching topics

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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
Posted

An incident occurred yesterday that has prompted me to write to the caching community.

 

Within 5 feet of a cache I stepped on a leg-hold trap. It was in a place where I very shortly would have put my HAND. Thankfully, I was not hurt.

 

This trap was in a city park 5 feet from THIS Cache: Cache.

 

I would not expect to find such a thing there, even though it was in an area that, while not "posted" or "off limits", was not in a frequented location. It was on a "game trail" approximately 20 feet off the road.

 

I noted the find on the cache page and placed a pix of the trap as i left it, in its original location with my log.

 

The trapper has contacted me and is accusing me (falsely) of stealing his trap. He has registered as a geocacher and states in his log that he took the cache and he will file charges if his trap is not returned by Monday.

 

He has asked me to contact the geocaching community to see if someone has his trap and if they would kindly return it.

 

I am making this post at his request and to alert the caching community thet:

 

1. Trapping is legal (at least in Indiana) EVEN in CITY PARKS according to state law.

2. Interfering with a trapper's traps is illegal, even if it appears they are negligently or illegally placed.

3. Traps can be set ANYWHERE, so WATCH WHERE YOU PUT YOUR HANDS!

 

GDAE,

Dave

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magellan315

magellan315

Posted
Posted

Below is his log, unless he has real proof that you stole his trap, he's bluffing. I'm sure the traps cost money and he is pissed he's had them stolen. You have two choices sit back and see what happens or beat him to the punch. Contact the local conservation officer, tell him what you were doing, how much danger you thought you were in from a leg grab trap, and find out if trapping is allowed in an active city park. I'd also ask the owner to archive the cache and find another location.

 

I found this while checking my traps , had no clue it was there , I was searching for my missing FOOT HOLD TRAP , that was legelly placed on property not belonging to the golf course with permission . This trap was placed in a effort to control animals damaging the property ....

I have the box and it will be returned when my trap is returned in working order ( no Damage ) ...I also have permission to trap the golf course for coon and skunk that are damaging the greens and cart sheds ... this is also the second trap I have had stolen from the area, trapping with permission is not illegel . However taking those traps is, so I'll be contacting the Local Conservation Officer and reporting the THEFT if the trap is not returned by Monday morning....

 

I will be returning the box on 11-27-05 .... I have the information I needed from it to prosecute the theft of the trap and IDNR has been informed .... I also left a flier of my own .... I wish all outdoorsmen/women could see the enjoyment of each others sport and respect that ... this looks like a fun and educational thing to do and may try it myself some day ....

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Renegade Knight

+Renegade Knight

Posted
Posted (edited)

So, the guy steals a cache out of retribution for his missing trap.

 

Heck, I'd encourage the cache owner to report his cache stolen and then point the police the right direction.

 

He's 100% in the wrong on taking that cache.

 

Read his post. He's just as annoyed as we get when someone steals a cache. I can't hold being annoyed against him. Just his actions.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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New England n00b

+New England n00b

Posted
Posted (edited)
2. Interfering with a trapper's traps is illegal, even if it appears they are negligently or illegally placed.

By the way I though this statement is an oxymoron. Interefering with a trap is illegal, even if its illegally placed. Huh?

I think you missed a word. Unless you are a game warden/forestry official, or the landowner, you have no authority to act as one.

Edited by New England n00b
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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
  • Author
Posted
That's really strange, I can't picture that happening around here. You're more in danger of getting shot for not wearing your blaze orange.

 

But I'll watch a bit more carefully when in game lands...

The POINT is it is NOT a "game land". I have always been mindful of these things in "game lands" but it was totally unexpected in a city park.

 

Guess I'll be wearing my orange in the parks too.

 

Actually, I did wear orange in a state park once and had the cache in my hand not 20 feet from the trail, stood stock-still as several people went by and they didn't see me :P

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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Looks like I might get to go caching with him and introduce him to the sport :P

Go easy on him!

What happened? I'm assuming he has calmed down a little.

we are corresponding by email.

He said he might even place a cache of his own soon (without traps)

 

I think it is calming down, but I still have no idea who took his trap.

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El Diablo

+El Diablo

Posted
Posted
And just think how lucky you were there wasn't a jacknife in the cache.

Even worse would be the poor animal with their leg crushed in the trap laying there all night in pain and terror waiting on someone to come by and whack them in the head to put them out of their misery.

 

El Diablo

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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
  • Author
Posted

Yep.

I WRONGLY assumed the trap was illegal. But STILL that does not give ANYONE the right to steal another's property.

 

I did not reset the trap because I don't know how and I thought it was in a dangerous place. I would NOT have tripped it had I not stepped on it. I would have simply let it be and notified the cache owner and DNR, as I did.

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Renegade Knight

+Renegade Knight

Posted
Posted

I emailed the guy. He's level headed and has already been in contact with the cache owner. He will be returning the cache.

 

CCD should take the guy caching.

 

When I lived in Fairbanks I knew several people who ran trap lines. It was just another occupation there. Given the roots in the USA on trapping it would not suprise me that there are a lot of laws that protect it.

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New England n00b

+New England n00b

Posted
Posted
Even though the traps were legally set wouldn't the trapper be responsible if a person were injured by them? It seems to me that one wouldn't have a reasonable expectation to walk in to a leg hold trap at a public park.

AN appropriately motivated lawyer can make spilling coffee into your lap a cause for celebration.

 

Dave - i was not implying that you did anything wrong, just to be clear. Just commenting some of the others thoughts.

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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
  • Author
Posted
Even though the traps were legally set wouldn't the trapper be responsible if a person were injured by them? It seems to me that one wouldn't have a reasonable expectation to walk in to a leg hold trap at a public park.

AN appropriately motivated lawyer can make spilling coffee into your lap a cause for celebration.

 

Dave - i was not implying that you did anything wrong, just to be clear. Just commenting some of the others thoughts.

I know.

I was saying "dittos" to the no vigilante thing.

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El Diablo

+El Diablo

Posted
Posted
Yep.

I WRONGLY assumed the trap was illegal. But STILL that does not give ANYONE the right to steal another's property.

 

Dave, this isn't directed towards you.

 

Placing leg catching traps is cruel. To keep it on topic...placing them near a cache is dangerous. Why anyone would place a trap in a pubic park is beyond me.

 

El Diablo

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Mopar

+Mopar

Posted
Posted (edited)
2. Interfering with a trapper's traps is illegal, even if it appears they are negligently or illegally placed.

By the way I though this statement is an oxymoron. Interefering with a trap is illegal, even if its illegally placed. Huh?

I suspect that statement is correct.

I know in many/most states, it is illegal to harass or interfere with a hunter, period. Even if you know the person is hunting illegally, you would still be breaking the law yourself if you attempt to interfere. If you think the hunter or trapper is doing something illegal, report it to the proper authorities and leave it to them.

Edited by Mopar
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Ladybug Kids

+Ladybug Kids

Posted
Posted

I don't know about other states, but up here in Alaska, traplines must be signed at all possible access points. If signed and marked properly, the presence of a trap shouldn't have been a surprise.

 

We have people trapping inside the city limits here right next to popular mushing and skiing trails (the rules say the trap must be forty feet off the trail), so we have to be extra careful to keep our canine friends (and young kids) properly restrained during fur season. The Alaska Trappers Association will speak to groups about how to recognize traps and snares and how to release pets and people who get caught.

 

It's not our choice of winter activity, but we've learned how to coexist with it out of necessity because it's going to be around a long time into the future.

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Confucius' Cat

+Confucius' Cat

Posted
  • Author
Posted
I don't know about other states, but up here in Alaska, traplines must be signed at all possible access points. If signed and marked properly, the presence of a trap shouldn't have been a surprise.

I brought this subject up to the gentleman. It seems logical to me, even the army puts up signs around mine-fields and i figured the skunks and coons can't read.

 

Apparently it is not a law here, nor do you even need to put your contact information on traps.

 

The gentleman came back that putting up signs would subject the traps to interference by those that have a vendetta against trapping. It is kinda like putting up a sign at a cache site that says "cache here \/ ".

 

I realize there are probably a lot more trappers and a lot less protestors in Alaska, but does this cause a problem up there?

 

I still think it is a good idea for the humans to be notified where traps are to minimize the danger.

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Ladybug Kids

+Ladybug Kids

Posted
Posted
Apparently it is not a law here, nor do you even need to put your contact information on traps.

 

<snip>

 

I realize there are probably a lot more trappers and a lot less protestors in Alaska, but does this cause a problem up there?

I forgot to mention that contact information is also required on the trapline posting and on the trap (usually a metal tag).

 

Posting traplines up here (Alaska) doesn't seem to create the problem of drawing anti-trapping people to pull traps. With all the open public land far away from populated areas (which is why I don't understand why anyone tries to trap in the very popular Creamers Migratory Bird Refuge on th northern edge of town), the average person (or cacher for that matter) will never come across a working trapline. My friends and I spend a lot of time in the back country with our dogs skiing, skijoring, and mushing and we REALLY appreciate a well-signed trap line because that has lets us know we need to keep our dogs on a line while in the area.

 

You are probably correct about the ratio of trappers to protesters being different up here, but I think the bigger reasons more traps aren't pulled is because of the very public legal prosecution of trap pullers which occurs seemingly once or twice a year and because of the remoteness of most traps.

 

MOST trappers up here are also very responsible about their activity because they realize it won't take too many trapped or snared family pets (or people, like happened to you) to swing public opinion against them. The Alaska State Trappers Association is very proactive about self- and public education to keep their activity out of the negative spotlight.

 

The Alaska State Trapping Regulations are also very clear about avoiding "high recreational use areas. Avoid situations where you might catch a domestic dog or cat, such as near homes or trails frequently used by hikers, skijorers, dog mushers, or other people."

 

Why do I know so much about this??? A couple of friends of mine have had very bad experiences with their dogs and traps/snares and I looked into the standards (legal and other) trappers are held to up here. Conflicts are kept to a minimum if the trappers adhere to their code of ethics and state law and pet owners adhere to leash laws.

 

IMHO, it would seem that a live trap would be more appropriate for a public park since the trapper appears to have been enlisted for "pest" control for a nearby golf course, but I am not at all familiar with Indiana trapping law.

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dingermcduff

+dingermcduff

Posted
Posted

When I was younger I helped my dad run a trapline, so I'm pretty familiar with the laws. Not that it would be any less distasteful to you El Diablo, but ALL of my sets were kill sets; in other words anything we trapped was dispatched in a matter of seconds. In fact, unlike most trappers, I never even carried a pistol because I knew I wouldn't find any live animals. I have since sold my traps because I lost interest in running a trapline.

 

Sounds like this guy is trapping nuisance animals that someone would pay to dispatch whether he did it or not.

 

While most trappers you meet are regular guys, there is definitely a few true backwoods boys out there, the kind of guys that get a skunk in the trap AND EAT IT! And those varment-eaters ALWAYS carry a gun. That's motivation enough for me to not want to get caught messing with a trap. I occasionally find traps up here in Minnesota, and I'm always on the lookout when I'm tromping through the woods during the season.

 

One unfortunate potential issue with trappers and cachers might be if a cacher brings a dog with. Dogs have a tendency to find traps.

 

If you regularly take a dog into an area that might have traps, you might want to consider printing the document at this link: http://gundogdoc.com/library/trap_release.pdf and carrying it in your caching pack. It is actually pretty easy to look at a trap and figure out where you need to apply pressure to open it. As it shows (somewhat poorly), most people need a heavy string or rope to open their first conibear trap. If you're a bigger guy, you might be able to open one with your hands.

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Geo Froggy

+Geo Froggy

Posted
Posted

These horribly cruel traps need to be outlawed everywhere. Animals have chewed their feet off trying to get out of them and you would be amazed how many federally protected raptors have been caught in them, not to mention domestic pets. Thank God they are illegal in my state, but even so, as a wildlife rehabber, I received untold numbers of mangled hawks that had to be put down because their foot had been destroyed (raptors can’t live with only one working foot). If this trap was in a park, what is to prevent a child or an adult from getting caught in it? Even if it is legal it was irresponsible for anyone to put it there, and I think a complaint to town law enforcement officials would be in order.

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Mystery Ink

+Mystery Ink

Posted
Posted (edited)
These horribly cruel traps need to be outlawed everywhere.  Animals have chewed their feet off trying to get out of them and you would be amazed how many federally protected raptors have been caught in them, not to mention domestic pets.  Thank God they are illegal in my state, but even so, as a wildlife rehabber, I received untold numbers of mangled hawks that had to be put down because their foot had been destroyed (raptors can’t live with only one working foot).  If this trap was in a park, what is to prevent a child or an adult from getting caught in it?  Even if it is legal it was irresponsible for anyone to put it there, and I think a complaint to town law enforcement officials would be in order.

This Picture was taken from someone's yard caught in someone's electric fence.

Question is would you want something like this in your yard with kids?

Traps are not always a bad thing to have. :D

 

ShowLetter2.jpg

 

ShowLetter3.jpg

Edited by Mystery Ink
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Indotguy

+Indotguy

Posted
Posted (edited)

Hunters, trappers and fishermen purchase licenses which contribute to the coffers of government agencies i.e., the Department of Natural Resources. They also have powerful lobbies who make sure they have a voice in influencing legislation and rules related to their sport. In our society money talks and the sport of Geocaching has no voice. Were we required to purchase a Geocaching tag for $10 a year to legally particapate in the sport I'm reasonably sure we would be allowed to hide caches almost anywhere.

Please do not misunderstand. I am NOT suggesting Geocachers be required to purchase a license. These are simply the facts as I see them.

Edited by Indotguy
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reveritt

+reveritt

Posted
Posted
Yep.

I WRONGLY assumed the trap was illegal.  But STILL that does not give ANYONE the right to steal another's property.

 

Dave, this isn't directed towards you.

 

Placing leg catching traps is cruel. To keep it on topic...placing them near a cache is dangerous. Why anyone would place a trap in a pubic park is beyond me.

 

El Diablo

In fairnness to the trapper, I'm sure he did not realize that humans would be endangered by his traps. His trap should be returned to him--rectally.

 

Leg-hold traps are an abomination. There are better ways to deal with varmints.

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ATMouse

ATMouse

Posted
Posted (edited)

The NYS Fire Academy used to be in Montour Falls, a lovely town with waterfalls in every niche and cranny. After classes, I would make the rounds and check out the falls and the park areas. One park, the Queen Catherine park, had nice hiking trails in it and I was enjoying the area when I came upon a grey squirrel in a leg trap.

 

I still have no idea if it was legal to set the trap there or not. I stepped over to the squirrel, who turned his head from me ("Okay, go ahead with what you're going to do..") and released him. Probably illegal for me, huh? Oh well...it's never kept me awake at night.

 

This was a perfect area for a cache to be in.

 

Just checked - there IS a cache in that area.

Edited by ATMouse
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sept1c_tank

+sept1c_tank

Posted
Posted

It appears to me that the cache is not in the park; according to Mapquest it is approximately 100 feet out of the city park. I briefly scanned the Indiana code on trapping and could not find anything indicating that trapping is legal in city parks. When trapping is legal in city parks, it’s time to start trapping the legislators.

 

If the trap was only 20 feet from a road, that sounds like poor judgment, too. Again, something stinks in Indiana (but we all knew that anyway). There are laws governing hunting near public right-of-ways, including rivers; simply, you cannot shoot across a river.

 

And there are plenty of laws about camping near a trail or waterway. Why would anyone, legislators or trappers, believe that a trap 20 feet from a road (and very close to a park) would be safe or desirable?

 

Something is wrong with this picture, and I don’t think it is ChurchCampDave or the geocaching community. I won’t say what I would have done, had I nearly been trapped, but I will say I would have been real pissed if this same situation happened to me. Twenty feet from a road is not a game area, I don’t care who you are. If the golf course wanted to get rid of varmints, they should have called Bill Murray.

 

BTW, CCD, I’m not sure the orange vest would help much in this scenario, other than to make it easier for someone to discover your body after you chewed your leg off and bled to death. :D:D

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Kit Fox

+Kit Fox

Posted
Posted (edited)

Great, a thread about dangers faced by cachers (leghold traps) has turned into a soapbox for 4 Anti hunter/trappers. :D

 

I don't know about other cachers, but when I go hiking, I always look before I step. It does help that I live in the desert, inhabited by 4 different types of Rattlesnakes, scorpions, and prickly cacti.

 

Ignorance is just another varmint needing to be killed.

Edited by Kit Fox
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Geo Froggy

+Geo Froggy

Posted
Posted (edited)

Kit Fox wrote:

 

"Ignorance is just another varmint needing to be killed. "

 

I totally agree with this statement. I am in the process of contacting the golf course suggesting that the animals are doing them a favor by getting rid of the grubs, and additionally that the traps need to be placed on the golf course, if that is the way they want to deal with their problem, as they will be able to inform the membership to watch out for them.

 

http://www.wildaboutgardening.org/en/gab/s...ife/problem.htm

"Raccoons and skunks will dig for grubs — they make for a delicious meal. They can hear them crunching on the roots of grass. While raccoons and skunks can often make a mess of your lawn in their search for grubs, it is the grubs that are doing the real damage. The solution lies in controlling your grub problem. A pesticide-free solution is the use of nematodes. For information on nematodes and their application, 1. see the question, “How do I deal with grubs?” (link to the appropriate question)"

 

Geocachers are worried about putting pocket knives and such in a cache, but it seems some cachers think it is okay to have to watch for leg traps when caching with their families on public property. :D

Edited by Geo Froggy
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reveritt

+reveritt

Posted
Posted
...

I don't know about other cachers, but when I go hiking, I always look before I step. ...

I think most of us look before we step--and think before we post.

 

I have no objection based on any supposed danger to me posed by leg-hold traps--or by hunters. I know how other people use the woods, and I take appropriate precautions.

 

I object to leg-hold traps on priciple--wherever and whenever they are used. They are barbaric and unnecessary. If I were to find one on public land, I believe I would probably destroy it.

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Mopar

+Mopar

Posted
Posted (edited)
I object to leg-hold traps on priciple--wherever and whenever they are used.  They are barbaric and unnecessary.  If I were to find one on public land, I believe I would probably destroy it.

There are plenty of people out there to object to leaving tupperware containers of junk in the woods; on principle. Does that make it right for them to destroy them?

 

There are plenty of geocachers that object to microcaches on principle. OK to destroy those?

 

There are people that object to the principle of any for of hunting. Is it ok for them to murder the hunters?

 

If you object to someone else doing a legal activity, breaking the law is not the right way to change things.

Edited by Mopar
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BadAndy

+BadAndy

Posted
Posted

The trap should not have been stolen, and it's wrong to assume that anyone connected with the cache, caching, trapping or animal rights had anything to do with it's theft. For all any of us know, the trap was simply muggled (it happens in public places yanno).

 

The trapper appears to be within his legal rights in setting his trap, and although he did remove the cache, he prompty returned it.

 

This forum is not the appropriate place to debate traps, animal rights, gun control or abortion. There are forums setup specifically to do that. Please utilize them. I'd be happy to debate someone on trapping over at the ALF forums. Look me up sometime, I go by Cheeseburger_in_Paradise.

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AuntieWeasel

+AuntieWeasel

Posted
Posted
If you object to someone else doing a legal activity, breaking the law is not the right way to change things.

It's not the right way to change the law, but it may be the only way to fix a specific situation you find at your feet. The law is like a menu: the deeds are listed down the left and the costs are listed down the right. Sometimes the deed is worth the cost to me.

 

To you, too. Unless you want to tell me that for twenty years you never drove over 55 miles an hour.

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BigWhiteTruck

+BigWhiteTruck

Posted
Posted
Hunters, trappers and fishermen purchase licenses which contribute to the coffers of government agencies the Department of Natural Resources. They also have powerful lobbies who make sure they have a voice in influencing legislation and rules related to their sport. In our society money talks . . .

Hunters and Fisherman are the original and largest group of environmental conservationists in the USA. Since 1937, we have donated over $8 billion through federal excise taxes on everything from bullets to fishhooks. Taxes which were set up and supported by hunters and anglers. Learn about the Pittman-Robertson Wildlife Restoration Program and the Dingell-Johnson Sportfish Restoration Program. You might want to thank a hunter next time you are enjoying the outdoors instead of going inside and bad-mouthing them on the computer.

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