Does Anyone Obey The Rules/law Anymore?

[+The Seegert Seekers]

We are fairly new to this sport and have come to the conclusion that many people don't obey geocaching or local laws or policies. We have been trying very hard to be the FTF only to be disappointed and find that someone went out at midnight and found it. In our area, city parks close at 10:00 PM. I think people should quit being so dadgum greedy and start obeying THE LAW!!

Edited November 25, 2005 by The Seegert Seekers

[+The Leprechauns]

I will note the park's closing hours on my cache page. If someone then sneaks in and logs a find and writes about night caching in their log, I'd delete the find. Haven't had to do that yet, but I have seen others who have done so.

[+Moose Mob]

It also depends on the area. I have night cached in a dusk to dawn park and had the police officer assist in the search.

[+CYBret]

There's a very old and historic cache on my watchlist. The park times are clearly posted on the cache page and yet it's very common to find logs where cachers are bragging about what time of night they snuck into the park to find the cache and what residential area they had to park in because the park was closed.

 

I wonder if they even stop to think that the park employees might read the logs for this cache?

 

I wonder if they'd be as eager to brag, "I'm the guy who got an A.P.E. cache archived!"

 

Bret

[+The Leprechauns]

Sure, I've had plenty of law enforcement encounters, nearly all of them at night. They were all pleasant and I have also had one experience where the officer helped us find the cache. The reason for that is because I was in the area legally. Even the one time I was inadvertently on private property, once we explained what we were doing, the officer escorted us around to a legal parking area for the public land we were trying to access.

[bogleman]

I don’t think anyone is deliberately trying to break the law, I think it is the over-zealousness to get the cache “AT ALL COST”. I am here - the cache is there and I will find it. I have spent many a fine twilight hours caching. Let me tell you one thing for sure is that many of these urban caches I venture after I could have been easily mistaken for a burglar. Was my intent to find the cache or was it to loiter & act like a burglar. That is a choice I made but I enjoy trying to find caches that are listed as 24-7, I'll go by at 0130 and see how many muggles are out then. I say if the cache does not have any time constraints listed then anytime is fair game, I will choose to hunt it or not when I get there depending on the location and surroundings. A DNF is a lot cheaper that a citation for loitering/prowling at nighttime. I work 2nd shift, many times after work I get the urge to grab a cache or two on the way home. I have broken the rules a couple of times by venturing into a local wood lot after hours but that was because of my own stupidity.

[+Criminal]

We are fairly new to this sport and have come to the conclusion that many people don't obey geocaching or local laws or policies. We have been trying very hard to be the FTF only to be disappointed and find that someone went out at midnight and found it. In our area, city parks close at 10:00 PM. I think people should quit being so dadgum greedy and start obeying THE LAW!!

Some people like the added adventure.

 

Some people want the extra challenge.

 

Some people hate to waste all that E&E training the government gave them.

 

I somehow don't see greed as part of the reason. Either way, whining about it isn't going to help. Not all caches are published at night. Why do you feel so strongly that you want/need/deserve to be FTF?

[+Mule Ears]

There's an element of trespassing and law-breaking to many, if not most urban and roadside caches. Do you think Walmart encourages people to tamper with its lampposts? Do you really belong in the breakdown lane when you stop to snag a guardrail micro? What about climbing underneath pedestrian bridges or on expressway sound-barrier walls--those are probably trespassing violations on somebody's books.

 

Those who violate hours-of-operation rules to snag park caches first are undertaking a risk to be FTF--a risk you consider unacceptable. Shrug.

[+cachew nut]

I will note the park's closing hours on my cache page.  If someone then sneaks in and logs a find and writes about night caching in their log, I'd delete the find.  Haven't had to do that yet, but I have seen others who have done so.

This coming from someone who climbs onto statues and goes geocaching in cemeteries after hours. How do you know that the person finding your cache at night doesn't have the authority to be there after hours, as in the case of a security guard or park employee? I wouldn't waste my time on your cache with rules like yours, or if I did, I would just leave the part about time out of my log, sort of like you did during your 24 hour marathon. Are you going to go back and delete your logs of night caches you found? How hypocritical.

Edited November 26, 2005 by cachew nut

[+The Leprechauns]

I will note the park's closing hours on my cache page.  If someone then sneaks in and logs a find and writes about night caching in their log, I'd delete the find.  Haven't had to do that yet, but I have seen others who have done so.

This coming from someone who climbs onto statues and goes geocaching in cemeteries after hours. How do you know that the person finding your cache at night doesn't have the authority to be there after hours, as in the case of a security guard or park employee? I wouldn't waste my time on your cache with rules like yours, or if I did, I would just leave the part about time out of my log, sort of like you did during your 24 hour marathon. Are you going to go back and delete your logs of night caches you found? How hypocritical.

I have never knowingly violated a law in order to find a geocache, but I can think of multiple times when I've turned back and skipped a cache after seeing a "Park closed" sign or "Cemetery Rules: no visitors after dusk" sign. I saw no such signs during the 24 hour marathon that you mention. That fun day of caching was coordinated by the most experienced geocachers in the area where I visited, and my guides didn't steer me wrong.

 

So, no inconsistency in my position, and yes, I'll be keeping the logs. But thanks for the gratuitous personal attack.

Edited November 26, 2005 by The Leprechauns

[H to the Bizzle!]

I'm guilty of breaking the law while caching. I once went into a gated pet cemetary at 2:00 a.m to get a FTF, and did.

[+webscouter.]

I'm not a lawyer so this is probably just crap.

 

I wonder if an argument couldn't be made that as a taxpayer you own a portion of any public park, city, state or national. As such it could hardly be considered tresspassing to be on your own property no matter what time it is.

[+Jamie Z]

Here's what I think is a good example.

 

Of course, I'm not local, so I don't know the area at all, but when I went to search for the cache, I came across a big "Road Closed" and "Area Closed to the Public" signs, likely due to the recent hurricanes. I even took a pic.

 

I turned back, but when I went to log my DNF I noticed that several other people had found the cache--some admitting they ignored the signs. The cache owner assured me that there were other ways to get to the cache beside the closed road. I can only take her word, but I still can't see how one would get to the cache without entering the ared which is closed to the public. Shrug.

 

Then I was accused of ruining other folks' fun.

 

Jamie

[+Alan2]

I'm not a lawyer so this is probably just crap.

 

I wonder if an argument couldn't be made that as a taxpayer you own a portion of any public park, city, state or national. As such it could hardly be considered tresspassing to be on your own property no matter what time it is.

You're right. It's just crap.

[+Criminal]

Funny, but when I see signage saying the road is closed, I always take that to mean the road is closed motor traffic.

 

I once saw an old woman berate her husband for walking past a DO NOT ENTER sign in a parking lot with one-way parking lanes.

 

Road Closed to me means I can still walk it.

[+Indotguy]

I am not a slave to convention by any means, but the argument that you own a part of your public park and have the right to enter any time you wish seems a little juvenile. I suppose we own part of the White House as well but I don't think it wise to climb the fence at midnight, sneak up the stairs and try to visit George W. The fact is that like it or not, disregarding posted rules at Parks, Cemeteries etc. to log caches is the very sort of thing that gives the sport a bad reputation. These are the very things that legislators in some states can and will use to either ban the sport or regulate it to death. Just my two cents worth...

[+webscouter.]

I was trying to be funny, guess I am just as bad as a comedian as I am a lawyer. Good thing I fix printers for a living.

[+Jamie Z]

Funny, but when I see signage saying the road is closed, I always take that to mean the road is closed motor traffic.

True or not, in the case of the above cache I linked, there is an additional sign which says "No Public Access Beyond This Point." To me that means foot traffic, too.

 

Jamie

[+TotemLake]

Indotguy Posted: Nov 26 2005, 03:28 PM 

 

Hoosier Cacher

 

Posts: 146

Joined: 22-March 04

 

 

I am not a slave to convention by any means, but the argument that you own a part of your public park and have the right to enter any time you wish seems a little juvenile. I suppose we own part of the White House as well but I don't think it wise to climb the fence at midnight, sneak up the stairs and try to visit George W. The fact is that like it or not, disregarding posted rules at Parks, Cemeteries etc. to log caches is the very sort of thing that gives the sport a bad reputation. These are the very things that legislators in some states can and will use to either ban the sport or regulate it to death. Just my two cents worth... 

 

--------------------

 

Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.

Mark Twain

 

Obvioiusly certain areas will have higher risks than others. The White House versus a local park... seems to be apples and oranges where the policy is to protect the people working and living in the White House versus discouraging teenagers from partying it up and trashing the park.

Edited November 26, 2005 by TotemLake

[+Team GPSaxophone]

Do I exceed the speed limit on the freeway? Does it matter if I'm on my way to a geocache or not? The fact that I'm a geocacher makes no difference whether or not I abide by the laws. In fact, I almost got a ticket this morning for driving too fast in a construction zone (even though it was 5:30 on a Saturday morning and the construction workers were all nestled snug in their beds). Of course, I was headed to work and not a geocache but that's beside the point.

Earlier this week I was headed to a cache and was hoping the park had a restroom. When I got there, the sign said park closed at dusk, but the restroom doors were wide open. I didn't turn around and drive a couple more miles to a gas station, and while I was there I figured I might as well look for the cache. Does that really hurt anyone? I would have violated the park's hours regardless of whether I was geocaching.

We see the same type of thread pop up around hunting season, stereotyping all hunters as beer drinking fools. Yes, some hunters are that way but why not say they are beer drinking fools that happened to be hunting? That's the same as saying some law-breaker just happened to be geocaching too. After all, geocachers are just hikers with a particular destination in mind, right?

Edited November 26, 2005 by Team GPSaxophone

[+radioscout]

Of cource I do, especially if I am hiding a cache.

 

If caches are hidden in forbidden areas, officials might complain about the caches and this might lead to new rules for hiding caches.

[+NomadVW]

I'd delete the find.

I'm confused. Your cache page says "hours are..." The log would say "I searched at xxxx."

 

I'm not understanding how the person didn't find the cache.

 

Oh well... all this log deletion talk on threads all over the place has prompted me to create a shared/public bookmark list of "Caches where finds were deleted."

 

Haven't had to add any yet, but I look forward to it.

 

VW

[+Yamahammer]

Sound Bites:

 

From Back to the Future: "Rules? Where we're going, we don't need ... rules."

 

From Blazing Saddles: "Rules? We don't need no steekin' RULES!!!"

 

I might have been speeding on the way to a cache. You wanna delete my log??? I didn't completely stop at the stop sign either. Gonna delete my log? I jay walked across the street to get here, gonna delete that log too? ... I don't think Homeland Security needs to be brought in cuz someone snuck into a park after hours nor do I think the rules need amending (PLEASE DON'T DO IT!!!). I think GC has enough to do without policing the local laws.

 

[+The Leprechauns]

I'd delete the find.

I'm confused. Your cache page says "hours are..." The log would say "I searched at xxxx."

 

I'm not understanding how the person didn't find the cache.

 

Oh well... all this log deletion talk on threads all over the place has prompted me to create a shared/public bookmark list of "Caches where finds were deleted."

 

Haven't had to add any yet, but I look forward to it.

 

VW

A geocacher hiking to my cache in a State Park after dark is not only violating the law, but also the caution on the website to obey all applicable laws, and also the rules applicable to my cache. Furthermore such a geocacher could jeopardize my permit for the cache being sought.

 

Think of "search only during hours when it is lawful to do so" in the same sense as cache pages that say "logs that are not written in poetry will be deleted." They're both logging requirements. Personally the first category is important to me, and I don't mess with the second.

 

In a recent post, I noted that a review of my caches showed nearly 1,500 "found it" logs. I have yet to delete a single find. That is because the vast majority of geocachers have enough common sense to obey all applicable laws.

 

So, sorry, but I haven't any entries for your bookmark list.

[+Alan2]

I was trying to be funny, guess I am just as bad as a comedian as I am a lawyer. Good thing I fix printers for a living.

I was trying to be funny too. Hope I didn't offend you.

[+Team Cotati]

There's an element of trespassing and law-breaking to many, if not most urban and roadside caches. Do you think Walmart encourages people to tamper with its lampposts? Do you really belong in the breakdown lane when you stop to snag a guardrail micro? What about climbing underneath pedestrian bridges or on expressway sound-barrier walls--those are probably trespassing violations on somebody's books.

 

Those who violate hours-of-operation rules to snag park caches first are undertaking a risk to be FTF--a risk you consider unacceptable. Shrug.

And yet each and every one of those were approved for listing.

[+Confucius' Cat]

There's an element of trespassing and law-breaking to many, if not most urban and roadside caches. Do you think Walmart encourages people to tamper with its lampposts? Do you really belong in the breakdown lane when you stop to snag a guardrail micro? What about climbing underneath pedestrian bridges or on expressway sound-barrier walls--those are probably trespassing violations on somebody's books.

 

Those who violate hours-of-operation rules to snag park caches first are undertaking a risk to be FTF--a risk you consider unacceptable. Shrug.

And yet each and every one of those were approved for listing.

Yep, and if we dont get our act together (collectively) there aint gonna be any geocaching for much longer.

 

I go on many nowadays that I abort because the area "just didn't feel right".

 

A cache is always a pleasant experience in a park on a trail when the park is open to the public, but those where you have to "nearly trespass" are no longer a joy to me.

 

The sad thing is that the parks are slowly but surely regulating or outlawing caches.

[+-Low-Bat-]

...The sad thing is that the parks are slowly but surely regulating or outlawing caches.

-How true this is...

It's a matter of time before everybody gets the boot in this sport.

What are the actual guidelines for placing (and allowing) caches in parks in the first place? It seems that in order to prevent "cache clashes" the geocaching guidelines need to be updated or clarified a little more.

Some people are under the misunderstanding that a "Park Closed" sign is just just for automobiles and not pedestrians. Does this mean that if a bank is "Closed" you can still go in if you don't have any money ? Count me in !

[+TeamGuisinger]

As far as trail closed around here, it seems to always be open to foot travel because you can walk wherever you want off trail. If it's public property on both sides of the gate, I can walk. Usually it's mountain bikers, and horse people that have to wait on trail repairs. Emergency closures however ie. flooding, disaster....Well, I guess that would require a field tested answer, which I cant provide.

[+Robespierre]

I suspect that the real issue is NOT that someone broke a local law, but that it cost YOU something. So, I just want to assure you that a few FTF's will not significantly alter your life....... it'll be OK. (I have a handfull, and you can't spend 'em. Oh, and I NEVER night cache.)

[+jon & miki]

...The sad thing is that the parks are slowly but surely regulating or outlawing caches.

-How true this is...

It's a matter of time before everybody gets the boot in this sport.

What are the actual guidelines for placing (and allowing) caches in parks in the first place? It seems that in order to prevent "cache clashes" the geocaching guidelines need to be updated or clarified a little more.

Some people are under the misunderstanding that a "Park Closed" sign is just just for automobiles and not pedestrians. Does this mean that if a bank is "Closed" you can still go in if you don't have any money ? Count me in !

Actually, if the land managers are brought into the process early, they often encourage geocaching as a way to increase public access and participation to their facilties (which will allow the sport to continue to grow).

 

The negative reactions are often a result of the cache owner having placed the cache without the land manager's permission and the land manager discovering it after the fact. Leaving the land managers out of the process (contrary to the existing guidelines) will (and has) created animosity and restricted the growth of the sport.

Edited November 28, 2005 by jon & miki

[+Googling Hrpty Hrrs]

I suspect that the real issue is NOT that someone broke a local law, but that it cost YOU something. So, I just want to assure you that a few FTF's will not significantly alter your life....... it'll be OK. (I have a handfull, and you can't spend 'em. Oh, and I NEVER night cache.)

 

I was thinking along these lines, too. I could have empathized better with the OP if it was simply, "we shouldn't break park guidelines while hunting caches." However, it comes off more like sour grapes about FTF rights.

 

The whole FTF race is bizarre to me. Takes no special skills to be FTF. Can't see why someone would break a law to be FTF, and don't understand angst about someone else beating another person to a FTF.

[ElmoClarity]

I noted that a review of my caches showed nearly 1,500 "found it" logs.  I have yet to delete a single find.    That is because the vast majority of geocachers have enough common sense to obey all applicable laws.

Or the common sense not to admit to violating the law.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

I noted that a review of my caches showed nearly 1,500 "found it" logs.  I have yet to delete a single find.    That is because the vast majority of geocachers have enough common sense to obey all applicable laws.

Or the common sense not to admit to violating the law.

Of course. In my example, if a cop had approached me and asked why I was in the park after hours the word "geocaching" would have never left my lips. I had stopped to use the restroom.

[+Criminal]

I noted that a review of my caches showed nearly 1,500 "found it" logs.  I have yet to delete a single find.    That is because the vast majority of geocachers have enough common sense to obey all applicable laws.

Or the common sense not to admit to violating the law.

Of course. In my example, if a cop had approached me and asked why I was in the park after hours the word "geocaching" would have never left my lips. I had stopped to use the restroom.

The best caught-in-the-park-after-hours excuse I’ve heard is “I lost my GPS this afternoon here in the park and just came back to find it” while showing your now found GPSr. Nobody would fault you for sliding around a park after hours if you had lost a piece of expensive electronic equipment there. Plus, if you had been watched for a while before they approached you, it certainly appeared that you were looking for something.

 

I certainly don’t condone the violating of park rules though.

[+Team GPSaxophone]

That would be a good explanation too, but in my particular case I was waiting around the playground (since the cache happened to be close to the playground) while the rest of my party was in the restroom. My point was that the cop wouldn't need to know that I'm a robot technician for a very large computer chip manufacturer, he only needs to know why I'm in the park after hours. Geocaching wouldn't be "necessary information" and would just make him more suspicious.

[+sept1c_tank]

I certainly don’t condone the violating of park rules though.

Right.

[+Miragee]

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but there was an "interesting" incident here last summer.

 

A Girl Scout troop placed a cache in a local neighborhood park that was closed after 8:00 p.m. Several cachers sought the cache after dark, which got the dog in a nearby yard barking.

 

The man who owned the dog found the cache and put dog poop in it.

 

The cache was archived.

 

The Girl Scouts didn't get to enjoy reading the online logs for their cache for months or years . . . as they could have if people had not violated the park hours . . . (and if the guy hadn't been such a jerk )

[+Ambrosia]

I find this interesting...we have several very extensive park systems in our area, and they have closing hours, but nobody goes by it. People use the parks for excersize at all hours.....I've never thought much about it.

[+VegasCacheHounds]

I will note the park's closing hours on my cache page.  If someone then sneaks in and logs a find and writes about night caching in their log, I'd delete the find.  Haven't had to do that yet, but I have seen others who have done so.

This coming from someone who climbs onto statues and goes geocaching in cemeteries after hours. How do you know that the person finding your cache at night doesn't have the authority to be there after hours, as in the case of a security guard or park employee? I wouldn't waste my time on your cache with rules like yours, or if I did, I would just leave the part about time out of my log, sort of like you did during your 24 hour marathon. Are you going to go back and delete your logs of night caches you found? How hypocritical.

I don't know about the specific areas in question, but in many areas, such as here in Texas, cemetaries don't have hours.

[hide & seekers]

I have night cached in a dusk to dawn park and had the police officer assist in the search.

night cached in a dusk to dawn park?? Well, daylight caching just wouldn't right!

[+The Seegert Seekers]

The opening post did sort of come off as sour grapes I'll admit - we put a lot of time and effort into doing our caches "in the spirit" of the thing. In this case it was clearly not legal for the persons to be there - but they did and it was very frustrating. The sport is indeed on a cusp with encampments of pros and cons on all sides. And many of the comments above are quite cavalier and often flippant with their "why not? its our butt on the line" attitudes. But in the end its not just your butt, but the enjoyment we all get from the sport thats on the line. Rules are rules and they are there to help us. The extra adrennaline can be gotten by choosing more difficult caches. We enjoy very much doing this sport and are concerned about the "at all costs" attitude. Where does it stop? We cache with our 9yr old and how do we explain, "well honey, some people dont get in trouble for breaking the rules...."? And to be honest we have no ill will to those that got the FTF - we've met and like them actually [] The FTF wasn't the problem it was the way it was done. Obviously our post opened the door for a number of comments from opinions on both sides of the geocoin - which is nice to see.

Edited November 30, 2005 by The Seegert Seekers

[+briansnat]

There's an element of trespassing and law-breaking to many, if not most urban and roadside caches. Do you think Walmart encourages people to tamper with its lampposts? Do you really belong in the breakdown lane when you stop to snag a guardrail micro? What about climbing underneath pedestrian bridges or on expressway sound-barrier walls--those are probably trespassing violations on somebody's books.

 

Those who violate hours-of-operation rules to snag park caches first are undertaking a risk to be FTF--a risk you consider unacceptable. Shrug.

And yet each and every one of those were approved for listing.

And why not? Are they illegal?

[+CamoCacher]

I used to work late long hours many times getting in before daylight and out after sunset, the only way to cache would have been weekends only or after dusk. I know I have looked for caches in closed areas before and posted about the hour I was out. I find there is an added challenge to the dark and/or rain.

[+flask]

crashco and i were once detained a little by an officer who was irate that we had not observed a PARK CLOSED AT DUSK sign.

 

well, no, officer. we didn't see it, now that you mention it. it's way over there away from the entrance. in the dark. it isn't even reflective. and yes, we see it now that you've shined your big honkin' light on it.

 

time of day? five in the afternoon.

 

i mean, really.

[+ParrotRobAndCeCe]

As to the OP's original question...

Unfortunately, no. It seems as if most people think that either the laws/rules don't apply to them or perhaps they are just suggestions. Think about it for a minute - how many times, every single day, do you see people doing things they are not supposed to do?

 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I've never sped down the road or maybe rolled through the occasional stop sign from time to time, but there are some things I wouldn't do, and most of them are common courtesy or common sense issues. Common courtesy seems to be lost these days - there's the guy that drives by himself in the HOV lane, the woman with 20 items in the express lane at the market. Are they hurting anyone? Probably not - but it's still rude, and last time I checked being polite and not wishing to offend people is normal for a civilized society.