Extreme Geocaching

[Dr_newtron]

I just started geocaching a couple of weeks ago and I am really enjoying it. I have found 10 caches and am interested in hiding some of my own. I would really like to hide caches in extreme locations such as on the side of a cliff, where rope work skills might be needed to get to the cache. Would this be OK as long as I give proper warning and describe the dangers? If so, are there a significant number of extreme geocachers out there who will put the effort in finding these type of caches, or will my caches not attract anybody?

[+wandererrob]

sounds like a 5/5 cache to me

 

While the location and such are probably ok with proper permissions and all that stuff, I'm not sure how many people will visit it, though I'm sure there are some that will. There are certainly people who will take on and even enjoy the challenge, but I wouldn't expect a high find count on it.

 

As for hiding in general, just a piece of advice... spend a bit more time in the sport before hiding your own. It'll give you some good insights into what works/doesn't work, ideas, etc.

 

Overall though, I'd say go for it.

[+Miragee]

As long as it is rated correctly, as a '5' if special equipment or skills is required, that would be great.

 

Some people live for those types of caches . . .

[dawginit81]

i also have an idea for an extreme cache. the only thing u need not to be affriad off is hieghts to get to this one. I searched the guidelines for placing a cache and i couldnt find anythign that said i couldnt place a cache that was on the dangerous side. I will however post warnings when i list the cache of the danger.

[+G-Squad]

You may want to consider something else before setting it out. With that level of difficulty and required expertise, will local cachers hunt for it? If not, visits to the cache may be few and far between. If that's alright with you, by all means go for it!

[+briansnat]

This really isn't a "getting started" issue, so I'm moving it to the appropriate forum.

[+Criminal]

There was a time when a new cache, regardless of the terrain or difficulty, would be hunted by anyone who was physically capable. Now, even though they will insist it’s not about the numbers, many cachers will not put much time or effort into any single cache. You will not get many visitors unless it’s possible to bag 10 others along the way.

 

That said, hide it. The logs and pictures you will get from a tough cache are far better than the ‘TNLN’ logs from postage-stamp-park micros.

[+sept1c_tank]

...are there a significant number of extreme geocachers out there who will put the effort in finding these type of caches, or will my caches not attract anybody?

There are some who may be attracted.

[+Team Flashncache]

From the GeoCaching Disclaimer - Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache. That takes you off the hook.

 

If you hide it, there are those who will seek it. (Probably more than you think!)

 

Just be sure you mention any and all special equipment needed to safely seek out the cache. Climbing gear, harness, pitons, spotter, hot-air ballon, submarine... and make sure it's spelled out clearly on your submission!

 

Best of luck to ya!

[+maritimedriver]

I always thought extreme geocaching was when you were caught out in the woods after dark without a flashlight, or when hunting for a cache under time constrants (such as lunch breaks or when runnings errands for your wife). Seriously, as long as you know what to bring in advance, extreme terrain caching is great. I would just hate to drive for an hour or two and realize I had to go back home to get equipment.

Edited November 9, 2005 by maritimedriver

[+StarBrand]

sounds like a 5/5 cache to me

Or Just a 1/5 - put in plain site on a ledge 40 foot up and 40 foot down..........heck paint it orange and include a solar powered neon sign. Still going to need special skills to get there. (beyond the majority of cachers) but does sound like fun!

[Dr_newtron]

Thank for all your encouragement. This should be fun!!

[+CharlieP]

From the GeoCaching Disclaimer - Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache. That takes you off the hook.

I think there is some question about whether the disclaimer applies to cache hiders/owners. The wording is this:

 

"In no way shall Groundspeak Inc. nor any agent, officer, employee or volunteer administrator of Groundspeak Inc., be liable for any direct, indirect, punitive, or consequential damages arising out of, or in any way connected with the use of this website or use of the information contained within. Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache."

 

It does not specifically include cache owners in the list of those not liable. If I hid a cache which presented unusual conditions or hazards, I would not only list those conditions, but include my own disclaimer in the cache posting. If I were a wealthy person, I would not post such a cache ... period.

 

FWIW,

CharlieP

(not a lawyer)

[Tahosa and Sons]

Extreme is a misnomer much like the 5 stars for Terrain.

 

What is extreme to some might just be a daily event for others. 5 stars on Terrain that includes a jeep ride but a short stroll off the running boards for about 50 ft. is not all that difficult terrain wise.

 

One needs to understand what does Difficutly mean, generally its the brain work involved to locate the box. Demonic Clues, Diabolic Hide and componets of that nature. Terrain is a level from 1 a walk in the park to at least 5.0 Extremely Strenous Terrain (lots of hills, swamps, woods, etc.).

 

I usually don't worry about the liability issue if they want to go look for it then as far as I care that is their business. I won't loose a nights sleep if you are lost in the back country or freeze to death while looking for a cache. But I will go to your Funeral out of respect if you don't make it.

[+BalkanSabranje]

If you want to see some nice examples, have a look at the following two bookmark listings:

 

Vie ferrate / Eisenwege by Gert

 

Alpine Tours by BalkanSabranje

 

Have fun,

BalkanSabranje

 

Edit: pics

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2005 by BalkanSabranje

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

From the GeoCaching Disclaimer - Cache seekers assume all risks involved in seeking a cache. That takes you off the hook.

 

If you hide it, there are those who will seek it. (Probably more than you think!)

 

Just be sure you mention any and all special equipment needed to safely seek out the cache. Climbing gear, harness, pitons, spotter, hot-air ballon, submarine... and make sure it's spelled out clearly on your submission!

 

Best of luck to ya!

I much agree with the statements above. We have placed a number of extreme caches, all falling into our Psycho Urban Cache series and in our Psycho Backcountry cache series, and each listing page clearly states the Terrain rating (4.5 or higher) as well as any special gear (i.e., climbing gear, spelunking gear, protective Tyvek bunny suit, self-contained breathing apparatus [sCBA], etc.) Our experience, especially for our extreme caches on the well-populated east coast, is that if you place a good extreme cache -- with a cache listing page which assigns an appropriate Terrain rating and gives adequate warnings of dangers and gear needed -- people will come from far and wide to seek it. Sometimes teams of eight or more cachers will show up to tackle them. And, as others have said before, the log entries are a joy to behold -- they are often long and tell the whole tale of the aches and pains of getting the cache, and we also often receive phone calls from cachers who have just completed one or more of our Psycho caches, to thank us personally for the experience, and to ask when we will be placing some more caches in the series! Such experiences are very heartwarming!

 

However, my experience with extreme caches placed in highly inaccessible settings in far more rural and less-populated areas (i.e., the Jackson WY area) is that it is true that the cache may sit there for a while before it is found, and for several reasons:

• the far lower population density (compared to east coast or the cities of the west coast)
  extreme caches in such areas may often be accessible for only 5 months of the year, due to snow and ice accumulations which block trail access (and extreme temperatures)
  

We have two very extreme caches (in our Psycho Backcountry cache series) in the Jackson WY area which I placed (along with my friend Greta, who is a backcountry guide in that area and part-time geocacher) in mid-September of this year, and neither has yet been found.

[+nfa]

Anyone who believes that the gc.com disclaimer provides comprehensive legal protection to either gc.com or hiders of caches should talk with a lawyer about the historical level of protection offered by "hold harmless" agreements/disclaimers in legal dealings...

 

I trust in the fact that most geocachers are good people, that reading the description of my tougher caches will scare off those prone to injury or lawsuit, that the anonymity gained by my geocaching handle will protect my true identity, and that nobody will ever find the bodies of those who die attempting my more difficult caches...making culpability hard to prove.

Edited November 10, 2005 by NFA

[OGBO]

If you hang the cache on a cliff, especially like the ones pictured in the reply from BalkanSabranje, you need to add one more item besides the GC "5/5". Namely, you need to post the climbing difficulty. The YDS rating is most appropriate for rock in North America, but the local country convention is the one to use. Ice climbs use a "WI" system, and mixed rock/ice an "M" system. Alaska mountains get an Alaska grade that reflects weather conditions. Denali by the "trade route" (West Butt) is Alaska 2 (I lost so many brain cells after spending a few weeks at 17,000 that I forget. Maybe it was a 3, but my successful attempt was pretty much a "walk in the park").

 

If your cache is 5.13d, you aren't going to get many visitors, but you might get a fair number at 5.8 or lower. On the other hand, a couple things to consider -

 

1. most climbers are into clean climbing. So anything that is left behind is likely to get removed, if it is on an established (or new) route. All the rock in BalkanSabranje's post would fall into that category. If the route is something no one would do for any reason other than getting to the cache, well, it might have a longer life. You definitely have to make sure you abide by the local climbing ethic.

 

2. The GC format gives only the lat/lon. You would have to give the 3D (altitude included) waypoint info. See, your 2D fix might put you at the base of the Nose route on El Cap, but is it 5 feet up, 1000 ft up, or 2000 ft up (or right at the top of the climb). I am, of course, neglecting the fact that El Cap is in a National Park and you couldn't put a physical cache there.

 

3. For most climbs of significance, you will have a serious "canyon" problem, and on a route with overhangs (like the big roof on the Nose), you also have a serious "canopy" problem.

 

4. You need to decide if this is a "climb only" or if rappelling down from above is legitimate. Remember that rap-bolting is still controversial in some areas as a means of setting up routes (hey, I'm a trad climber and know that sport climbing is neither )

 

There are plenty of long approach caches, some of which do involve technical climbing (some rock, some alpine, some glacier, don't know of any pure ice caches though). Some of them require a fair amount of skill and experience (and are not in the psycho category).

 

I would think that putting the standard climbing disclaimer and making a bold note that technical climbing is involved would suffice. The standard climbing disclaimer includes words like "climbing is a dangerous sport. The dangers include severe injury and death. Do not undertake unless you have had professional training and lots of experience. YOU COULD DIE and it is your own responsibility and your own risk." Maybe add "the person placing this cache, the owner of the cache, and all other persons recommend that you do NOT attempt to find this cache."

 

Then again, that has yet to stop the lawsuits against climbing equipment manufacturers.

[Dinoprophet]

One needs to understand what does Difficutly mean, generally its the brain work involved to locate the box.  Demonic Clues, Diabolic Hide and componets of that nature.  Terrain is a level from 1 a walk in the park to at least 5.0 Extremely Strenous Terrain (lots of hills, swamps, woods, etc.).

Right. I think of it this way: Difficulty is how hard it is to locate the cache, e.g. a puzzle to obtain the coordinates, or very good camouflage. Terrain is how hard it is to physically reach the cache.

 

The point is, the side of a cliff doesn't necessarly make it a 5 for difficulty, though it most likely makes it a 5 for terrain.

Edited November 11, 2005 by Dinoprophet

[Verga]

I am a newbie myself, but was wondering about this type of thing since I heard about Geo caching from a friend of mine.

Near my house is a creek that has several good sized islands in it. One of which is about 20 yards by about 45-50 yards. access would pretty much be by boat or raft of some kind unless you are willing to swim for it.

 

Any thoughts on placing a cache there?

 

Verga

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I am a newbie myself, but was wondering about this type of thing since I heard about Geo caching from a friend of mine.

Near my house is a creek that has several good sized islands in it. One of which is about 20 yards by about 45-50 yards. access would pretty much be by boat or raft of some kind unless you are willing to swim for it.

 

Any thoughts on placing a cache there?

 

Verga

There are many island caches, and they are much fun. I swam a cold river to reach one which we found on an island in a river about two months ago -- it was great fun! (I did not have to swim back, because some caching friends eventually came along in a boat an hour lager, seeking the same cache, and one kindly gave me a lift back to shore after the long search had ended!) So, go for it! Be sure to use a waterproof container which is anchored securely in case of high water, and be sure to assign the cache a Terrain rating of 5! Have fun!

[+KKTH3]

However, my experience with extreme caches placed in highly inaccessible settings in far more rural and less-populated areas (i.e., the Jackson WY area) is that it is true that the cache may sit there for a while before it is found, and for several reasons:

• the far lower population density (compared to east coast or the cities of the west coast)
  extreme caches in such areas may often be accessible for only 5 months of the year, due to snow and ice accumulations which block trail access (and extreme temperatures)
  

We have two very extreme caches (in our Psycho Backcountry cache series) in the Jackson WY area which I placed (along with my friend Greta, who is a backcountry guide in that area and part-time geocacher) in mid-September of this year, and neither has yet been found.

I can relate to this. Since These two are in my neck of the woods I have a strong desire to get the FTF on them - but it isn't gonna happen for at least 6 months- more likely 8 or 9.

 

The other catch is that I'll need a partner to go after the extreme ones since my family that I do most of my caching with is bound to the 2 star and under terrain caches for physical reasons.

 

And if you plan to put a back country cache even closer to my local (Casper,WY) I'll be happy to help out with it as much as I can.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

However, my experience with extreme caches placed in highly inaccessible settings in far more rural and less-populated areas (i.e., the Jackson WY area) is that it is true that the cache may sit there for a while before it is found, and for several reasons:

• the far lower population density (compared to east coast or the cities of the west coast)
  extreme caches in such areas may often be accessible for only 5 months of the year, due to snow and ice accumulations which block trail access (and extreme temperatures)
   
   
  

We have two very extreme caches (in our Psycho Backcountry cache series) in the Jackson WY area which I placed (along with my friend Greta, who is a backcountry guide in that area and part-time geocacher) in mid-September of this year, and neither has yet been found.

I can relate to this. Since These two are in my neck of the woods I have a strong desire to get the FTF on them - but it isn't gonna happen for at least 6 months- more likely 8 or 9...

 

...And if you plan to put a back country cache even closer to my local (Casper,WY) I'll be happy to help out with it as much as I can.

Thanks for this interesting note. A group of three cachers (I believe they are from the Idaho Falls area) did grab FTF on Psycho Backcountry Cache #3 - Bitch Creek Crossing (GCQNN5) this past weekend, but the cache at Wind Cave in South Darby Canyon (GCQNT7) remains still unfound. And, if I may add, much as you have noted, it is highly unlikely that it will be found until June or July of 2006, given the quantities of snow and ice which block the trails during the long, long, long winter! In fact, my friends who live in the area tell me that the park service road -- which leads to the trailhead parking lot -- which winds its way into Targhee National Forest from the Idaho side of Darby Canyon, is often closed for about 6 months of the year due to the same extreme factors.

 

Thanks much for your offer to possibly co-place an extreme cache up around the Casper area. Much appreciated, and I may well take you up on that next year! My friend Greta, who helped me place these two extreme caches, and who is a backcountry guide in the Jackson area, has a good friend who lives in Casper, and we have contemplated a road trip to visit her the next time I am out there, which will likely be July or August of 2006. I am sure that if we make the trip to Casper, Greta and I would have much fun placing an extreme cache around there with you. The biggest part, for both of us, is picking a really unique site, which is interesting as well as extreme. The way we picked the fantastic cache site at Wind Cave in South Darby Canyon is that we have gone up there in the past; Greta first took me up there in 1998 on a horsepacking trip. (For our recent trip where we placed the cache, we hiked in on foot, rather than horseback.)

Edited November 15, 2005 by Vinny & Sue Team

[Verga]

Okay along the same topic of my original question.

The geo trophy wife and myself were talking this weekend about a series of caches around the theme of needing a particular piece of equipment (ie boat for the first one).

Some of the ideas we have are:

1) Mirror: the coordinates for the second stage would be written out in word form rather then numerical and printed in reverse.

2) Rope: the first stage would be taped to a branch to be pulled down and read for the next location

3) Magnet: use a magnet to unlock a box with coordinates to the second stage.

 

There would be about 10 in the series all together.

 

The one I have concerns about would be using a bible.

The clues to the next stages would be found in the verse itself or in the Chapter and verse numbers.

 

Would this offend anyone?

[+Criminal]

Would this offend anyone?

Anything will offend someone. Do it.

[+sTeamTraen]

The one I have concerns about would be using a bible.

The clues to the next stages would be found in the verse itself or in the Chapter and verse numbers.

 

If the puzzles will be online, just make sure it's a widely available version (on Project Gutenberg, for example, so heathens who don't own a bible, or at least that version, can find it), and specify which version you're using.

 

Also, don't forget that people have mobile phones, either with WAP access to Google, or to "phone a friend". So many tough-seeming puzzles can be steamrollered through. It's a shame to spend hours working out something fiendish only to have people get their s/o at home to look it up.

 

If you mean to leave the bible (or other equipment) on the trail, be aware of what happens over time to more or less anything: it wears out, gets soggy, etc. It will be up to you to replace it. Do you want to return to that 5/5 rock overhang for the third time to replace a missing clue, when no people have found your cache ?

 

My best advice is: cool your enthusiasm for a bit. Place some easier caches and keep your powder dry (literally, perhaps!) for the big one. If you've placed a few good caches in stunning locations, people will go for the harder ones. If not, you might be drumming your fingers for a long time.

Edited November 21, 2005 by sTeamTraen