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How Good Is The "s"


dhbaird

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Just how good are the compass and altimeter features that Garmin includes on the "S" models?

 

I know that the S stands for "compass, altimeter, glide ratio and vertical speed to destination calculators" but I really want to know if they add much more functionalisty than the units without them.

 

Do they maintain calibration?

Do they lose position and have to be reset during a hike or trip?

If you do a reset, what does that do to the data you might have collected so far on a trek?

 

David

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Well, let's put it this way...I carry a Garmin Foretrex 101. Just about as simple as you can get. I carry an eight dollar Silva compass with me always, and I challenge anyone with an "S" model to do anything I can't do while navigating. If you have the extra money to spend on the "cool" factor. then go for it. You won't be sorry. But, again, you wouldn't be able to do anything I couldn't do.

 

Oh and yes...The altimeter needs frequent calibration to be accurate, and the compass needs to be calibrated when you change batteries.

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I have a Garmin "S" and I will address some of Alphawolf's comments.

 

I challenge anyone with an "S" model to do anything I can't do while navigating.

 

OK. while navigating Do you mean you are navigating with the aid of a Map, or with the GPS Go To Point function? I don't use maps. But when I am "navigating" with Go To Point my compass is in direct communication with the GPS (your Silva is not). So even with spotty reception under heavy tree cover I can ask the compass to point me to the Cache. For this reason alone I think the Compass was worth the money.

 

Oh and yes...The altimeter needs frequent calibration to be accurate

 

Well the altimeter is NOT exactly a precision instrument. You will probably be disappointed by it. BUT, that statement isn't exactly true either. You do have the option to use GPS elevation to automatically calibrate the altimeter. And in that mode, to get even reasonably stable elevation data you have to be patient. So it's not a precision instrument, and it's slow. But it can be easy to use without any calibration input on your part. NOTE: Yes, it can be Manually calibrated which would be most useful for Fixed Elevation applications like Base Camps or on the Water.

 

So now you've heard why I like the "S" I own and use. And you've heard from someone who has never used one, but has decided it offers no tangible benefit. Believe who you want.

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Just how good are the compass and altimeter features that Garmin includes on the "S" models?

 

I know that the S stands for "compass, altimeter, glide ratio and vertical speed to destination calculators" but I really want to know if they add much more functionalisty than the units without them.

 

Do they maintain calibration?

Do they lose position and have to be reset during a hike or trip?

If you do a reset, what does that do to the data you might have collected so far on a trek?

 

David

While I think the altimiter is more "show" than function, I wouldn't want to be without the compass. I always use "trackup" when navigating. If you stop walking for just a moment, the next few trackpoints will invariably turn your GPS map so that it is no longer 'Track up". When I want to orient myself to the landscape or to a paper topo map, I turn the compass on, get a bearing, and touch the rocker button to "lock" the map view in the current orientation. Now the GPS map is oriented to the way your facing, and it's easy to use in conjunction with a topo map. You could also put the map flat on the ground and do the above to align your paper map with your gps map. As nice as the the 60cs "map view" is, it doesn't quite compare to viewing a 1:24K topo map in getting an overview of the surrounding terrain.

 

Considering the weight of a topo map and hand compass, I don't know why anyone wouldn't carry them as a back-up. Having said that, I find the operation much more simple to use the GPS for compass readings.

 

It takes about 30 sec to calibrate the compass and recalibration has no effect on already stored track/distance info.

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And you've heard from someone who has never used one, but has decided it offers no tangible benefit.

 

Quite a jump there! I never said I have never used one. I have sold GPS receivers now, for nearly 7 years. I teach GPS navigation clinics on an ongoing basis. I have owned more GPS receivers in the last 7 years than I can remember, and have taken home and used and taught private lessons with them all.

 

I reiterate...I use a Foretrx 101 for any off road navigation for any reason. I could take any receiver I wanted to out of the case (We have over 25 models to choose from) at any time, take it home and have it for the weekend. But I don't.

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While I think the altimiter is more "show" than function...

The altimeter is a very functional instrument. It is there to provide elevation data when you can't get a good lock on the sats, and knowledge of your altitude is critical. That scenario can play out frequently when mountain climbing (think search and rescue).

 

I personally don't care for it - constantly calibrating it seems like more trouble than it's worth to me, and it's just something more to break. When I wanna go, I don't wanna have to mess around with calibrating the thing - I just wanna turn it on and go!

 

When you're on a plane, the altimeter will give the altitude based on cabin pressure. So when you're really at 41,000 feet, the altimeter will give you a fake reading of about 5,000 feet.

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While I think the altimiter is more "show" than function...

The altimeter is a very functional instrument. It is there to provide elevation data when you can't get a good lock on the sats, and knowledge of your altitude is critical. That scenario can play out frequently when mountain climbing (think search and rescue).

Well that is what I thought, and maybe I don't have a representative unit, but consider the following.

 

You can only calibrate it accurately at a "known" elevation, or a known pressure. For average useage your pretty much limited to a known elevation.

 

You say it comes in handy when you "don't" have good satellite lock, but the autocal feature relies on the GPS computed altitude to "correct" or autocalibrate the nuit. Bad sat geometry or bad reception gives you a faulty calibration. I find using a topo map and contour lines are much more accurate than the altimiter....I rarely get agreement between a topo map and the altimeter....in an area I frequently travel, the altimiter is typically 40 ft off on a 160ft elevation. While the readings start out fairly accurate, in autocal mode it doesn't take long to have a drift to inaccuracy. I'm not expecting perfect accuracy for the altimiter to be useful, but being off 25% seems a lot. Granted these are not "high" elevations and perhaps the resolution of the pressure sensor has greater sensitivity at higher altitudes.

 

I'd be curious to hear what you are typically experiencing as a differential between actual and displayed altitude. When your sat geometry is not the best, do you experience greater errors.

 

In the absence of topo derived elevation data, it's certainly better than nothing, but then too I would be more likely to transfer my position to the paper topo map I carry and trust that inference.

 

Could also be I have an atypical unit, with most other people experiencing better accuracy than I am. (the unit is a 60 CS)

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For 99.9% of users I have talked to, the altimeter is just something "cool" to mess around with. I mean come on...Your altitude is what it is at any given moment. Are you going to climb a tree or dig a hole just to make it say something different on the screen?

 

You can get into all sorts of hypothetical situations where someone can use an altimeter (assuming you have very recently calabrated the danged thing), but in reality, they serve very few people any real function.

 

If I have an "S" model in my hand, the altimeter page never even gets looked at, let alone messing with calibrating it.

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I use the electronic compass on mine all the time. The units without an electronic compass will only give you a real compass reading if you are moving over a certain speed. I know one person who bought a model with an electronic compass specifically because if he were to break a leg or sprain an ankle while in the woods he could use the compass even if he was reduced to crawling but he wouldn't be able to crawl fast enough to make the non-electronic compass work. Of course a regular compass would work but he doesn't have one and has never learned orienteering.

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The units without an electronic compass will only give you a real compass reading if you are moving over a certain speed.

 

Hmmm....If my Foretrex is reading in "degrees" instead of "cardinal letters" for my bearing , and my gps is set to magnetic north instead of true north, then all I have to do is shoot a bearing with my $8.00 Silva compass a follow it. Even if I am sitting still.

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The units without an electronic compass will only give you a real compass reading if you are moving over a certain speed.

 

Wait a minute...I see what you are saying. You were comparing units with and without the compass, not comparing units with compass to a user with a seperate GPS and compass .

 

You are right, if your unit doesn't have the compass, and your not moving fast, and you don't know what the directions are, you're screwed for a while. (eventually, even at crawling speed, your GPS will figure out your track direction.)

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The units without an electronic compass will only give you a real compass reading if you are moving over a certain speed.

 

Hmmm....If my Foretrex is reading in "degrees" instead of "cardinal letters" for my bearing , and my gps is set to magnetic north instead of true north, then all I have to do is shoot a bearing with my $8.00 Silva compass a follow it. Even if I am sitting still.

Well I don't think so....If you are walking and get a reading, say 90 Degrees, and then you stop moving, and the reading stays the same, yes you are correct. With my GPS compass off, the the screen will rotate trying to maintain track up orientation....obviously since the compass is turned off, the units attempt to reorientate the page track up is based on new GPS readings which are indicating a "different" bearing direction than before I stopped. I believe this is caused by the basic accuracy of the unit, as while you are standing still it is laying new "points" within its accuracy circle which could be infront of, behind, or to the left or right of your current position. I think for any gps you really have to be moving for a GPS derived direction indicaton to be accurate. And that's not really such a big deal...just look at the bearing before you stop, stay facing the same direction and use your Silva.

 

If used with a map, you could use your method with either true or magnetic, the latter requiring a declination for your area depending on the map.

 

I frequently lay my gps on top of my topo paper map and the only way to orientate them in the same direction without the page "turning" is to use the compass to settle the movement and hit the rocker key to lock it in place.

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I have used the Altimeter in my Map76S much more than the Electronic Compass, that I don't really need. The GPS has worked really well when out on the lake several times. The Only problem is that there is no way to FIX the elevation in the GPS when on the lake, no matter what the settings are.

 

Ive also done alot of hiking in the hills with this GPS, and the altimeter has given me very good tracklogs with an interesting elevation profile.

 

The GPS that had the best electronic compass, was not a Garmin, but the Meridian Platinum I had, It was cool, but not really needed.

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Well I don't think so....

 

When I am "bushwacking" that is, traveling cross country, off trail, I use my GPS and compass to navigate. I have my map with me of course, but it is only to "check" my progress. I never leave my GPS turned on, so as to save battery life. A usual scenario would be as follows (In fact this is the very way I use my GPS 98% of the time):

I have previously entered a waypoint and I am now moving towards that waypoint. It might be my camp or my truck or whatever. I turn on my GPS, wait until I have satellite lock up and do a "GOTO" for the waypoint. On my compass page (Of course it isn't really a "compass"), I don't even pay attention to the bearing arrow or the heading directions around it. I simply look at the distance and bearing windows. I am always standing still when I do this. I'm not moving at all. Now, say it says my truck is 6.2 miles at bearing 270(mag.) , I simply turn my GPS back off to save batteries and put it away. I then pull out my compass, sight a bearing of 270 and walk towards the most distant thing I can see along that bearing line. I will occasionally redo this drill on my way to my truck, especially if I have had to detour around an obstacle, checking distance, bearing and re-shooting with my compass. It works perfectly standing still, and I haven't missed (AKA: gottten lost) yet!

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Well I don't think so....

 

When I am "bushwacking" that is, traveling cross country, off trail, I use my GPS and compass to navigate. I have my map with me of course, but it is only to "check" my progress. I never leave my GPS turned on, so as to save battery life. A usual scenario would be as follows (In fact this is the very way I use my GPS 98% of the time):

I have previously entered a waypoint and I am now moving towards that waypoint. It might be my camp or my truck or whatever. I turn on my GPS, wait until I have satellite lock up and do a "GOTO" for the waypoint. On my compass page (Of course it isn't really a "compass"), I don't even pay attention to the bearing arrow or the heading directions around it. I simply look at the distance and bearing windows. I am always standing still when I do this. I'm not moving at all. Now, say it says my truck is 6.2 miles at bearing 270(mag.) , I simply turn my GPS back off to save batteries and put it away. I then pull out my compass, sight a bearing of 270 and walk towards the most distant thing I can see along that bearing line. I will occasionally redo this drill on my way to my truck, especially if I have had to detour around an obstacle, checking distance, bearing and re-shooting with my compass. It works perfectly standing still, and I haven't missed (AKA: gottten lost) yet!

Sure that will work....once you have established a waypoint you can certainly get a bearing to it. If you haven't established a waypoint and or change your destination or route, well i guess thats a different matter. I always have been curious....how well does the Fortrex keep lock under heavy tree cover...is it intermittent if you leave the unit always on.

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You know, I really don't know much about its ability to maintain a lock under cover. That's because, like I said, I never leave it on. I have never once had a problem trying to get it to lock up whenever I do turn it on though.

 

As for changing my waypoints or destinations enroute, that is where my map and a grid card come into play. I actually have done this many, many times. I simply pull coordinates off of my map with my grid card and plug the numbers in to create the new waypoin(s). Total time, start to finish for plotting and entering a new waypoint from a map is about 3 minues.

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:rolleyes: Alphawolf, I find it remarkable that you continue to talk on this subject when according to your profile you have never found even 1 geocache! Selling items and putting on clinics about them is not the same as using them in the field under actual geocaching conditions ie: finding 20-30 caches in a 20-30 mile radius in one day. I don't which to flame you though I may already have and if so I apologize.
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:rolleyes: Alphawolf, I find it remarkable that you continue to talk on this subject when according to your profile you have never found even 1 geocache! Selling items and putting on clinics about them is not the same as using them in the field under actual geocaching conditions ie: finding 20-30 caches in a 20-30 mile radius in one day. I don't which to flame you though I may already have and if so I apologize.

All you retired spies are alike....looking deeply into someones background before making a comment.....what happened to the archeological side of your bio...I'm sure theres a much "nicer" person lurking there. :P

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Hey Mr.Bond:

 

Just because my "profile' doesn't state something, it doesn't tell you anything about me now, does it?

 

While you are out chasing geocaches in a "20-30 mile radius", I'm 35 miles (off trail) into the Yellowstone backcountry looking for (and finding) geothermal spots that far fewer people have been to than the summit of Mt. Everest!

 

The "geocaches" I have to find with my GPS are sometimes the only drinkable water within 5 miles, or maybe the only legal place to camp within 12 miles. If I "miss" and don't find the spring, it's a bit more serious than not finding an ammo can hidden in the brush.

 

Oh yes...And I do an occasional geocahe with some kids around the neighborhood once in a while too when I'm bored, I just let the kids log the find!

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Here is a picture I found of me doing just what we've been talking about...I am plotting a waypoint from my map into my GPS. This is about 18 miles east of Canyon Village in Yellowstone Park on my way to a place called Fairyland Basin. This is typical tree cover there, and I had no problems with satellite reception on the 101.

 

Navigating.jpg

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i have never owned a gps with a electronic compass. when i bought my legend C i really considered the vistaC. but i am really glad i stuck with the legend because the battery life(according to garmin) is 20hrs for the vista C and 36hrs for the legendC.

i will sometimes check the degrees(bearing) on my compass page and compare with a actual compass. the electronic compass you pay for only is an advantage while not moving..... guess i want to get where im going so this isnt an issue.

 

the differance in price for the better unit(vista C) was $40. no big deal but when it comes to battery life, ill stick with the non electronic compass model.

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i have never owned a gps with a electronic compass. when i bought my legend C i really considered the vistaC. but i am really glad i stuck with the legend because the battery life(according to garmin) is 20hrs for the vista C and 36hrs for the legendC.

i will sometimes check the degrees(bearing) on my compass page and compare with a actual compass. the electronic compass you pay for only is an advantage while not moving..... guess i want to get where im going so this isnt an issue.

 

the differance in price for the better unit(vista C) was $40. no big deal but when it comes to battery life, ill stick with the non electronic compass model.

I guess that is part of my question... Are the "S" functions worth sacrificing 10 hours of battery life?

 

David

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I guess that is part of my question... Are the "S" functions worth sacrificing 10 hours of battery life?

The pressure sensor consumes very little power and the magnetic compass can be turned off when not needed so you don't have to sacrifice any significant amount of battery life. Using NiMH cells the battery life is only of concern to me on exceptionally long outings. On those I'd keep compass use to a minimum. But on most trips where the batteries will be more than adequate anyway it can be nice to have the extra compass feature available.

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Well, keep in mind, you can turn off the electronic compass if you aren't usung it. There is basically and "on-off" option for it.

Keeping it off when not using it will make your batteries last much longer.

thats a good point, another thing to consider is everytime you change the batterys you have to calibrate the compass. heres a question for anyone with a electronic compass model.... do you need to calibrate the compass when you change batterys even if you have it turned off? could this be done just as easily once you need the compass feature(in the woods)?

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:rolleyes: Alphawolf, I find it remarkable that you continue to talk on this subject when according to your profile you have never found even 1 geocache! Selling items and putting on clinics about them is not the same as using them in the field under actual geocaching conditions ie: finding 20-30 caches in a 20-30 mile radius in one day. I don't which to flame you though I may already have and if so I apologize.

When using a GPSr to navigate to a waypoint, it makes no difference whether it's a geocache, campsite, car or whatever, it's still a set of co-ords and the method is the same. Navagation is still the name of the game - and finding your camp on a glacier in whiteout is a heck of a lot more important than a box of trinkets no matter where it's located.

 

I had and used a GPSr before geocaching existed - and before the electronic compasses - and the method Alphawolf mentioned works whether moving or sitting still. It make no difference if the direction ring is updated, the numerical readout of bearing (to the target) is the same - no matter which way you are facing. I can stop, spin in place and the readout still says the target is 147 degrees from me. Just remember, if you lose sat's you bearing (numeric or compass or little pointy arrow) is gone! I've found a number caches when I've lost signal by pulling out the compass and dialing in the bearing I had (it helps to see that the signals are on the way out and note what the bearing is).

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... do you need to calibrate the compass when you change batterys even if you have it turned off? could this be done just as easily once you need the compass feature(in the woods)?

No need to have it calibrated if you're not using it - just remember that you need to do it when you do want to use it sometime later.

 

Also if you're using rechargeable batteries you shouldn't need to recalibrate each time if you always put back the same cells in the same position. The point of recalibrating is to let the unit compensate in case the batteries are magnetized.

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:rolleyes: Well, I don't want to get into a p****ng contest here, and if you were to go back and read my forum posts you would learn that I am a big advocate of carrying and using a baseplate compass when out geocaching. I have also been using a gpsr since I bought my garmin 12xl in 1998.

 

The point I was trying to make about the 60cs, is that when you are racing to grab multiple caches in one day, it is very nice to have an upscale model that lests you download 1000 waypoints from GSAK and also tells you where the next closest cache is in a heartbeat. On the other hand, if your taking your time hiking in the woods and going to only 1 or 2 main objectives, I'm sure the fortrex 101 and compass combo will do you just fine. I just thought the OP might want to know what works better in the real world of geocaching.

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i have never owned a gps with a electronic compass.  when i bought my legend C i really considered the vistaC. but i am really glad i stuck with the legend because the battery life(according to garmin) is 20hrs for the vista C and 36hrs for the legendC.

i will sometimes check the degrees(bearing) on my compass page and compare with a actual compass. the electronic compass you pay for only is an advantage while not moving..... guess i want to get where im going so this isnt an issue.

 

the differance in price for the better unit(vista C) was $40. no big deal but when it comes to battery life, ill stick with the non electronic compass model.

I guess that is part of my question... Are the "S" functions worth sacrificing 10 hours of battery life?

 

David

Yesterday, this string was 3 deep. Today, what ... 30? I think you guys are basically missing the point. Although, you're getting there, slowly. Comparing the devices with and without the electronic compass and altimeter.

 

Since the compass has a setting for on/off based on your speed (to save batteries when the compass really isn't needed) you fall into the trap of how well the units work while standing still OR crawling. The idea isn't "How fast do I need to go to get this working?" Its "At what speed do I really not need the electronic compass?" If you are traveling by car or truck, 10 mph is a good guess. If you are hiking in the backcountry or Yellowstone, as shown above, its a mute point ... turn your GPS and use your compass. Since 99.9% (or more) of the geocachers probably aren't looking for an illegal geocache in Yellowstone, there is a bigger picture here. When spending $400, is it worth $40 to have additional functionality? While you are (finally) considering battery life, realize that the bigger unit has settings to help you with battery life. To really save batteries, have your unit hooked to your USB port (Legend C and Vista C) as well as utilizing the cigar lighter adapter for your vehicle. GPSmap 60CS owners need to know that their units do not get power from those connections, but need a different cord. With these in use, your only battery drain comes during the actual use of the GPS itself, i.e., while caching. Can anyone say "rechargeable batteries?"

 

Here is my suggestion: Buy both GPS units and a boatload of batteries and see which one you use the most.

 

You can't afford both? Can you afford a boatload of batteries? Can you afford the cables?

 

No? Buy the cheaper unit and spend the $40 on the in-car adapter.

Yes? Buy the more expensive unit and get all the goodies.

Yes, but don't see the point? Get you a $95 GPS and book a flight to Jackson Hole.

 

LifeOnEdge

Garmin eTrex Vista C

Garmin GPSmap 60CS

Garmin iQue 3600

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The compass is good when looking for a cache. Let the GPS unit lay still near the point. Go looking without it, but return now and then and see where it points to. This can't be done without the magnetic compass, since the bearing will be meaningless.

 

Want to figure out where a certain distant object is? Make a waypoint where you are, use Sight-N-Go to get a bearing to the object. Put a waypoint at the end of the bearing line. Move, make a new waypoint where you are and make a new Sight-N-Go. Now connect these waypoints within a route, and the intersection will give you the position you are looking for.

This can't be done without the magnetic compass.

 

Want to see your total climb, of the elevation profile of your progress?

This can't be done without the pressure sensor, since there's no software to support that functionality if you don't have such a sensor.

 

Worried about battery lifetime? Well, don't use the magnetic compass in these instances, then. You have the option to choose.

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The compass is good when looking for a cache. Let the GPS unit lay still near the point. Go looking without it, but return now and then and see where it points to. This can't be done without the magnetic compass, since the bearing will be meaningless.

Why would the bearing be meaningless? I generally have the map page oriented 'north up' so when approaching a destination I know which way is north relative to my surroundings. Glancing at the bearing (either numeric or compass point) and distance fields then tells me where the GPS thinks the cache is located - completely equivalent to the information you get from the arrow and distance fields in a unit with a mag. compass. Just requires the additional awareness of the direction of north (of course if I'm ever not sure of that I just take out my mechanical compass and refresh my memory).

 

Want to figure out where a certain distant object is? Make a waypoint where you are, use Sight-N-Go to get a bearing to the object. Put a waypoint at the end of the bearing line. Move, make a new waypoint where you are and make a new Sight-N-Go. Now connect these waypoints within a route, and the intersection will give you the position you are looking for.

This can't be done without the magnetic compass.

 

Yes, you need a mag. compass to do this accurately, but it doesn't have to be internal to the GPS. Just take a sight on the distant object with your hand compass and project a waypoint some distance past it on your GPS using the bearing from your compass sight. Then do the same from another location; connect the waypoints in a route as you stated; and locate the object at the crossing point. It's a little more work, but not much.

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My take on apersson850's post is that those things can't be done without a compass, therefore those are reasons to buy a unit with internal compass. I don't think he meant you couldn't do them with a handheld compass, because obviously we have been doing them for a long time.

It really just comes down to one simple little thing...

 

Does someone want to spend the xtra $$ on the "S" models to have an "all-in-one" unit.

 

For geocaching where getting lost isn't ever a factor, then you really don't need a separate compass to accomplish your task safely, so get the internal and have a blast with it.

 

For any situations where getting lost could be a possibility, then not having an actual, real, magnetic compass and map with you is just plain foolish. Therefore, why pay the extra money and give up the battery life for a unit with an internal compass, when you already have one in your pocket anyway?

 

The altimeter? Sorry...I have never been able to justify that one in my world for anything at all. My GPS and map tells me everything I need to know about my altitude. But, if you're getting the internal compass, then the altimeter just comes along with it anyway.

 

For my uses, and admitting that I am a "weight weenie" because of backpacking reasons, I am not giving up the battery life, carrying the X-tra weight, or paying the x-tra money for a unit that does nothing at all to help my off road navigation abilities.

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For geocaching where getting lost isn't ever a factor, then you really don't need a separate compass to accomplish your task safely, so get the internal and have a blast with it.

 

For any situations where getting lost could be a possibility, then not having an actual, real, magnetic compass and map with you is just plain foolish. Therefore, why pay the extra money and give up the battery life for a unit with an internal compass, when you already have one in your pocket anyway?

 

The altimeter?  Sorry...I have never been able to justify that one in my world for anything at all.  My GPS and map tells me everything I need to know about my altitude.  But, if you're getting the internal compass, then the altimeter just comes along with it anyway.

 

For my uses, and admitting that I am a "weight weenie" because of backpacking reasons, I am not giving up the battery life, carrying the X-tra weight, or paying the x-tra money for a unit that does nothing at all to help my off road navigation abilities.

Hi Alpha,

 

My usage of the GPS I purchase is going to be multi-facited so what I am really trying to do is to discern if an all-in-one unit will do the trick.

 

In early October I traveled to a city I have never flown into before. I drove for a day to an area that I did not know. I then used an off road vehicle to get to some remote trail heads. I hiked into three remote canyons, one with multiple water crossings that could have been very hairy in higher water. A GPS with auto-routing would have been extremely helpful in the driving and off-road parts of that journey. It also turned out that a GPS would also have been very helpful with two of the canyon hikes.

 

I had been unable to get a map for the first day of canyoning... I got 75% of that intended hike in because I lost the trail and had to back track. I did get one for the next two. Even with the map and my trusty compass I failed to locate a trail that day. The trail had been obliterated by landslides earlier in the year and after looking for close to an hour for a way to get around and continue on, I finally had to turn around, again short of my destination. I wished I had a GPS that day to just help me figure out where I really was in relation to that map so I could push on.

 

I also do canoe treking in the lakes and rivers of Maine and Canada.

 

I also do very limited bare-boat sailing with friends on the ocean. Most of the time they bring a marine GPS with Blue Water Charts installed, but I can not count on that all the time.

 

Does that help you to better understand what I want to do with this unit?

 

Caching will be a fun addition to my recreation, but the major purpose will be to get me there and back again in a multiple of ways. I am also tired of having to find a local store with the correct maps before a trek. I was hoping that with a good investment in the right mapping software that I could now be equipped to jump on a plane at the spur of a moment and have enough topo data at my finger tips to get there and back again safely and with the pictures my editor is asking me to bring back.

Edited by dhbaird
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GOT GPS? Posted: Nov 7 2005, 02:29 PM

 

I have used the Altimeter in my Map76S much more than the Electronic Compass, that I don't really need. The GPS has worked really well when out on the lake several times. The Only problem is that there is no way to FIX the elevation in the GPS when on the lake, no matter what the settings are.

 

I never use my GPSMAP 76S on the Water. But there are settings that should optimize it for that purpose. According to the various HELP information on the Setup Screens:

 

Altimeter Auto Calibration - On / Off Turn off to have complete control of altimeter calibration.

 

Barometer Mode - Fixed / Variable Elevation Select "Fixed" for greater accuracy if your elevation will remain constant, such as at camp or on water.

 

Calibrate Altimeter Using - Current Elevation and with a numerically selectable Value field.

 

If these setting don't give you better results on the Water, why the heck are they there?

 

edit: typo

Edited by Cardinal Red
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dhbaird Posted on Nov 8 2005, 09:37 AM

 

Just curious, how long does it take to re-calibrate?

 

It takes about 30 seconds.

 

Instructions from the HELP Screen: To Calibrate Compass: Slowly turn two full circles in the same direction while holding the GPSMAP 76S level.

 

Some users hold the GPS in front of them and turn their whole body.

 

Other users just turn the GPS while standing still.

 

Both methods seem to work equally well.

 

edit: typo

Edited by Cardinal Red
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I know one person who bought a model with an electronic compass specifically because if he were to break a leg or sprain an ankle while in the woods he could use the compass even if he was reduced to crawling but he wouldn't be able to crawl fast enough to make the non-electronic compass work.

 

That's a pisser. :anitongue:

 

My own take on this is I've been using a Vista with internal electronic compass for 4 years. I also use a PPC with GPS without internal compass or external compass.. I can find caches with both but the Vista's on-board is easier. It was worth the money for me. Since I hike with a hiking stick, not having to hold a separate compass, GPS and stick just makes it easier. I only have 2 hands. I haven't figured out how people hold 3 devices.

 

If you have the extra money, it makes sense because the two units are combined into one which might be a big plus for you while you're canoeing or hiking or caching. It's a nice feature that you'll be happy you got after you've used it a few times. The functions go together llike ham and eggs. You know you can have separate radios and alarm clocks, but isn't it nice to have a single clock-radio? That's probably a decent analogy

 

Also, some people have a lot more experience hiking and using 24K maps etc than most cachers. For the average cacher, however, having an all in one unit is simpler.

 

Finally the glide ration and verticle speed to destination you asked about are used for sky diving and the jumpmaster just in case you give up caching for something less dangerous :anitongue:

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Just how good are the compass and altimeter features that Garmin includes on the "S" models?

 

I know that the S stands for "compass, altimeter, glide ratio and vertical speed to destination calculators" but I really want to know if they add much more functionalisty than the units without them.

 

Do they maintain calibration?

Do they lose position and have to be reset during a hike or trip?

If you do a reset, what does that do to the data you might have collected so far on a trek?

 

David

The main reason I bought a CS is because it has a vertical trip computer with data fields that the non S has period. Not so much because it has a built in compass.

 

I use the vertical data all the time.

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I cannot imagine going into the backcountry without a standard compass. There is no way I am going to put my life on the line with just one piece of equipment. I want both. I was on the John Muir Trail a couple of years ago and low clouds came in and we could not see anything past about 75 ft. It made using an ordinary compass impossible. Also, at night using a compass is downright crappy. Using the backtrack feature of my GPSR is simply wonderful. A lighted screen and switching between screens makes night hiking, or finding your way in the dark amazing. I was hiking a new trail at night and I got lost. The trail simply stopped. I had no choice but to go back the way I came. I used the backtrack feature of my Magellan and I walked back the 2.35 miles in a total pitch black moonless night without a hitch. No way I could have done that with an ordinary compass. No way would I have even ventured out on a new trail at night witout a GPSR. I was not in the mountains either. I was in the middle of Thousand Oaks, CA. so I was in no real danger of any serious harm. In fact I could have used my cell phone to call in my exact GPS coordinates for search and rescue if I had needed to. Boy, would that have been embarrassing.

 

Also, there is no way I am going to trust myself to only having a piece of electronics that no matter how well they are built these days can be dropped and for who knows why stop working. I would hate to drop my GPSR into a stream only to find out that the back cover was not on tight enough and water ruined it. There are any number of reasons electronics fail. I know the value of being able to work a compass with a topo map. But with a compass you have to be able to see points of reference in order to make navigating possible. I use my GPSR all the time for the normal everyday camping and hiking. But, I carry my compass too. It weighs nothing and it is always reliable. My topo maps are waterproofed and I take them along with me. I was at Malibu beach a little while ago, at sea level right, and my gpsr said I was at +62ft. So the accuracy of the GPSR is not perfect. So, if for some reason, it is important to know the true elevation I pull out the topo. But, in the last 26 years I have never had a life threatening situation that made knowing the elevation critical. I plan my hikes ahead of time and I know where I need to be and what I will do if things don't go right. I was snowed in at Tioga Pass a few years ago and neither a compass or a GPS were going to help me get out of my situation. Knowledge and being prepared are the most important qualities anyone needs when backpacking, ort even geocaching for that matter. For simple geocaching any kind of GPS will work. It truly is plug-n-play. But when you want to hike from Happy Isles in Yosemite to Mt. Whitney you need something more than a GPSR because whether you have the electronic compass turned off or not there is not enough battery life for a three week trip. And I am not interested in carrying three weeks of batteries. As an ultralight backpacker weight is everything.

 

It all comes down to need and your personal abilities to be self sufficient in case the worst happens, and you MUST plan for the worst. If you base your life on a piece of electronics then I think you need to stick to geocaching and please do not venture off paved roads or away from city lights. The biggest mistake someone could make is to think that a GPSR now makes them an experienced navigator. The question you need to ask yourself is how would you fair if for any reason your GPS stopped working. I am a 29 year amateure astronomer and I can even tell direction by the stars/moon. But on a cloudy night that is impossible to do as well.

 

I love my new Magellan Explorist 500. I love the ability to add all kinds of map data by virtue of the SD slot. I have scads of memory. I don't need all the memory at the moment, but it is nice to know it is there if I do. I want a compass in my GPS. I like having both. I love the bells and whistles. My dad told me once that whenever I bought something to buy the best model I could afford. He said I would I never be disappointed with the best of whatever I buy.

What is the point of arguing about a compass.

 

Those who only do geocaching don't need to know how to use a compass. And if you are out in the wilderness and prefer to navigate using a standard compass well that's great too. The typical geocacheres are rarely, if ever, out hunting for cahces in the dark anyway and they rarely are in a position to get lost. So what is the big deal with what we choose to use?

 

If you don't know how to navidate with a compass then get a GPS with a compass. If you get a charge out of being able to find caches without an internal compass and you want the additional battery life for the GPSR then get one without a compass. Too each his own. Enjoy whatever you like to do, be safe and always stay within your abilities.

 

CaStaraman

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I just want to add that I mountain bike a lot in very steep country. I can depend on my 60CS's barometric altimeter for pretty accurate info on elevation gain. Satellite derived info seems to overestimate gain by 25-50% or so.

 

FWIW,

 

Rich Owings

www.MakeYourOwnMaps.com

www.GPStracklog.com

 

"We were desert mystics, my friends and I, poring over our maps as others do their holy books." - Edward Abbey

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I bought the 60 CS in part because of these additional features, but after owning it for a year and only using the compass occationally and the other additional features never, I have come to the conclusion that at least for me it would have been better to have purchased the 60C instead. When I did use the electronic ocmpass I was disappointed in its performance. I also expected something that would display more than North South East and West. When I needed one I needed one that would display actual degrees....

 

I also carry a real compass for the times that I need one.

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I bought the 60 CS in part because of these additional features, but after owning it for a year and only using the compass occationally and the other additional features never, I have come to the conclusion that at least for me it would have been better to have purchased the 60C instead. When I did use the electronic ocmpass I was disappointed in its performance. I also expected something that would display more than North South East and West. When I needed one I needed one that would display actual degrees....

 

I also carry a real compass for the times that I need one.

I've already ordered a CS so this may be moot.

 

Is there a way to use the compass on one of those units and take a bearing for a certain degree heading like you would on a regular ships compass?

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I bought the 60 CS in part because of these additional features, but after owning it for a year and only using the compass occationally and the other additional features never, I have come to the conclusion that at least for me it would have been better to have purchased the 60C instead.  When I did use the electronic ocmpass I was disappointed in its performance.  I also expected something that would display more than North South East and West.  When I needed one I needed one that would display actual degrees....

 

I also carry a real compass for the times that I need one.

I don't own a 60cs but my 4 year old Vista can be set to simultaneously display unit degrees (ie. 268 or 076) for both for direction and bearing as well by compass heading (NW SE, etc). Display can be True North or Magnetic North. You have to select it on the setup page and you can also select all kinds of data in the boxes in addition to course and bearing. I'm surprised that the 60cs does not do that. Have you checked the op manual? The Vista nalso projects waypoint, direction etc in degrees. You can aim it let's say at a mountain and store the direction and go to the direction stored. My guess is the 60cs does that too. Can any 60cs users confirm that?

Edited by Alan2
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I read most of the post here, Like Alpha Wolf I have sold many GPS units over there years untill I retired about two years ago. I have given many seminars re GPSrs and Geocaching. I also use a baseplate compass the sells for about $8.00. I have used and owned GPSr from Magellan and Garmin both with and without sensors. IMO a sensor in a GPS is a waste of money. I seen post were some have said if your are not moving fast enough the compass will in a GPS without a sensor will not work, B*****t,. I walk and take my time getting to a cache and have never had a problem with the compoass screen on any GPS I have used.

As far as the barometrid altimeter, another waste of money for geocacjhing. I have used products form both Garmin and Magellan that do not have barometric altimeters. Along side my Suunto Vector that has a Barometric altimeter the altitude readings on the GPSrs have always been within 10 feet of my Suunto.

 

On another point re a magnetic compass in a GPS, if some really thinks they need one I would recomend a Magellan over a Garmin. The Magellans (with the exception of the explorist 300) have a triaxial compass, this means you do not have to hold the GPS level for the compass to work.

 

And one more thing, every GPS made has an electronic compass. The models with sensors have Magnetic compasses.

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:anitongue: Alphawolf, I find it remarkable that you continue to talk on this subject when according to your profile you have never found even 1 geocache! Selling items and putting on clinics about them is not the same as using them in the field under actual geocaching conditions ie: finding 20-30 caches in a 20-30 mile radius in one day. I don't which to flame you though I may already have and if so I apologize.

What makes you think the unless someone has found a lot of geocaches they are not knowledgeable re GPS technology. There are may people in the world the use GPS technology on a daily basis that have no interest in Geocaching that are going to be knowledgeable in the field of GPS technology.

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