Did I Do Wrong?

[+Mr Lost]

Read the logs for Bettis' Plot and see if I did the right thing.

 

I have great sympathy for the plight of the homeless, but I have absolutely NO tolerance of bums. My city is pretty good at keeping panhandlers off the streets, but it is like dealing with mildew in a shower. Once a little starts, it grows at a very rapid rate. The bums who seem to have taken residency at this location are trashing it, leaving garbage all over the place, and even camping out on the marble slabs that cover the ground at the graves themselves.

 

I placed a geocache at this location specifically for the 'wow' factor, and to bring to the forefront of peoples minds the social value that we place on the final resting place of others. Respect for the grounds is paramount, and the homeless bums who encamp here are destroying the location. The local Home Depot (which backs up to the location) is responsible for maintaining the plot, and it is getting overgrown.

 

I also have an ulterior and somewhat selfish motive here. I want geocachers to be able to hunt my geocache without being annoyed by these people. I will not hesitate to call the local constabulary on thes folks. Am I being a jack@ss?

[+5¢]

Read the logs for Bettis' Plot and see if I did the right thing.

 

I have great sympathy for the plight of the homeless, but I have absolutely NO tolerance of bums. My city is pretty good at keeping panhandlers off the streets, but it is like dealing with mildew in a shower. Once a little starts, it grows at a very rapid rate. The bums who seem to have taken residency at this location are trashing it, leaving garbage all over the place, and even camping out on the marble slabs that cover the ground at the graves themselves.

 

I placed a geocache at this location specifically for the 'wow' factor, and to bring to the forefront of peoples minds the social value that we place on the final resting place of others. Respect for the grounds is paramount, and the homeless bums who encamp here are destroying the location. The local Home Depot (which backs up to the location) is responsible for maintaining the plot, and it is getting overgrown.

 

I also have an ulterior and somewhat selfish motive here. I want geocachers to be able to hunt my geocache without being annoyed by these people. I will not hesitate to call the local constabulary on thes folks. Am I being a jack@ss?

Call the cops and let them know the scoop. Home Depot could probably care less about what is going on as long as it isn't happening in their parking lot. If the cops don't work, talk to the city counsel.

[+Team Tired Boy]

Well, I don't understand the distinction between homeless person and bum, nor do I understand what Home Depot could be expected to do about the homeless. But it does sound like maybe disabling this cache was the right thing to do.

[+Mr Lost]

Well, I don't understand the distinction between homeless person and bum, nor do I understand what Home Depot could be expected to do about the homeless. But it does sound like maybe disabling this cache was the right thing to do.

A homeless person could have lost his house. The uninsured from New Orleans come to mind. A bum is a person who asks for change on the streets. Of the two 'homeless' that I have seen at this location, I have seen one before panhandling.

 

Home Depot (and every business that has ever bought this particular piece of real-estate) has been required as part of the purchase agreement to maintain the small cematary grounds. It is really small. I haven't measured it precisely, but 40' x 40' is about right.

[+El Diablo]

We all have the right to live. I'm sorry that it upsets your game. Are they really bums as you put it. or just good people that have been displaced by social events?

 

Either way they have a right to survive. You aren't talking about stray cats or dogs, but people...yes they are people.

 

Sure you can call your local police to run them off...but to where? Is this a matter of out of sight, out of mind?

 

Play your game some place else.

 

El Diablo

[+Mr Lost]

We all have the right to live. I'm sorry that it upsets your game. Are they really bums as you put it. or just good people that have been displaced by social events?

 

Either way they have a right to survive. You aren't talking about stray cats or dogs, but people...yes they are people.

 

Sure you can call your local police to run them off...but to where? Is this a matter of out of sight, out of mind?

 

Play your game some place else.

 

El Diablo

True enough.

 

Geocaching aside, what really burns me up is the profound lack of respect shown by these individuals towards hallowed ground. How might the descendants of this family whose plot this is feel about its desecration? It aint right! There are plenty of parks nearby where these people could just as easily (easier, actually) find refuge, but they chose this location. I want 'em gone!

[+El Diablo]

I agree..I want them gone. I want them to become produtive people in society.

 

There was a time in my life when I was homeless. I wasn't a bum and I didn't ask for hand outs.

 

I became unemployed, and then I lost my apartment. I moved to a motel for a few days and then my car was reposessed with all my belongings. The next thing I knew I was on the streets. I walked 6 miles every day to Man Power to work for 4.00 an hour. I saved my money and bought a tent. Long story short...I clawed my way back up.

 

Never assume that someone is a bum.

 

El Diablo

[+Mr Lost]

I think we are discussing pretty much the same thing here. I also want them to become productive in life. I don't need to assume anything about one of the guys I have seen there. I know he is a bum, as I have seen him asking for handouts at intersections around town. Handing panhandlers money only reinforces their condition. Making them get work helps them get themselves out of their situation. Creating an environment hostile to vagrancy would seem to be the most humane treatement for them, as that may be just the impetus that they need to get moving in the right direction. Driving by and ignoring them, or worse, giving them money is not the solution. No problem that I am aware of ever got solved by inaction. My choice of action is simply more of a 'push' rather than a 'pull'.

[+Mr Lost]

Godnight all. I am looking forward to what this one brings in the morning!

[+zeus661]

Mr. Lost, why not get a group together and maintain the place yourself. Maybe have a barbeque for the "bums" and they may help you. It is just a game and you sound ready to attack anyone who interfers. Try talking to a "bum", take one to lunch, maybe you will meet a new friend.

 

Stop picking on the "bums". You may be taking away the last thing they have.

 

Move your Cache.

Edited November 6, 2005 by QJ

[+Bob Blaylock]

  I'm reminded of an experience I had a few month ago.  My wife, a friend of ours, and I were preparing to take a trip out of town, in the friend's car.  As we approached a gas station, we noticed a very thin woman standing on the corner, begging.  The friend had a fresh loaf of homemade bread in the car, which she asked me to hand to that woman.  The woman handed it to a man who was begging at an opposite corner, and, as my friend was buying gas, this man approached me, and chewed me out for being “funny”.  We should have given them money — according to him — and not that stupid loaf of bread.

 

  My wife and I are cynical enough not to be terribly surprised by this ingratitude; I guess our friend has managed not to become nearly as cynical, and was rather deeply bothered by the whole thing.

 

  I guess there are some people who just will not be helped.  I think I have to agree with Mr. Lost's expressed opinions regarding “bums”.

[+Renegade Knight]

My my count, Home Depot doesn't care, The families don't care, the political entity responsible for graveyards doesn't care, and apparently the Homeless are using the locaiton that nobody else will claim.

 

I'm not sure the problem is with the homeless.

[+TotemLake]

So what of the homeless that not only lost their home, but their job in that devestation? Sometimes a person is knocked down so hard, it's hard to stand back up without somebody there to kick them back down.

 

Thanks for being there to kick them while they're down.

 

I've been in that same position and I had folks like you yelling at me to get a job after I had walked 20 miles that day to put in an application. Gee... thanks for the motivational cheer!

 

Let's hope you never have to face the same despicable act of circumstances beyond your control that places you in the same fate of those folks.

 

Just a gentle reminder, most people are merely 2-6 months away from that same situation.

[MapheadMike]

Article #1 and Article #2. It's not as historically significant as Arlington, but this isn't an ordinary graveyard. It looks like there are plenty of historians and historic buffs in that area that want it cleaned up too.

 

I think the OP should join with the historic crowd and put some pressure on Home Depot to get it clean like they promised. The historians would probably appreciate some extra support, but you do risk that the historians will judge that a geocache is inappropriate in the cemetery as well, no matter the intentions to attract cachers to this piece of history. Ask our friends in South Carolina how that works.

[+Mudfrog]

So what of the homeless that not only lost their home, but their job in that devestation? Sometimes a person is knocked down so hard, it's hard to stand back up without somebody there to kick them back down.

 

Thanks for being there to kick them while they're down.

 

I've been in that same position and I had folks like you yelling at me to get a job after I had walked 20 miles that day to put in an application. Gee... thanks for the motivational cheer!

 

Let's hope you never have to face the same despicable act of circumstances beyond your control that places you in the same fate of those folks.

 

Just a gentle reminder, most people are merely 2-6 months away from that same situation.

I agree with you in that just about anyone can lose their job, their house, and/or their family. Things happen that are beyond our control that can cause our life to change drastically. But does it mean that we have to go trash nice areas, annoy people with panhandling, or live like animals when it happens? It would be devastating to lose everything like some of these people have but i myself would not do any of those things. As someone said above, i would get to my feet and claw my way back up to a better life!

 

What im getting at is that alot of these people dont want to work at making their life better. So many of them just want handouts, either from our government or off the streets. They refuse to become productive in society!

 

Mr. Lost,,, A couple have suggested moving your cache or forming a group to keep the area cleaned up. You may have to move it to protect other cachers but having to move it because of this is bull malarchy. Same thing goes with the cleanup. Not a bad idea in general, but trying to do this, knowing that the area will be trashed the next day, wont work. Guess i would check with other groups in the area to see what they might have come up with to help alleviate this type of problem. Also, get with the city to see what can be done to get Home Depot back to maintaining the property. Not sure what else you can do but maybe others here have some ideas...

[+Wacka]

I'm reminded of an experience I had a few month ago. My wife, a friend of ours, and I were preparing to take a trip out of town, in the friend's car. As we approached a gas station, we noticed a very thin woman standing on the corner, begging. The friend had a fresh loaf of homemade bread in the car, which she asked me to hand to that woman. The woman handed it to a man who was begging at an opposite corner, and, as my friend was buying gas, this man approached me, and chewed me out for being “funny”. We should have given them money — according to him — and not that stupid loaf of bread.

 

My wife and I are cynical enough not to be terribly surprised by this ingratitude; I guess our friend has managed not to become nearly as cynical, and was rather deeply bothered by the whole thing.

 

I guess there are some people who just will not be helped. I think I have to agree with Mr. Lost's expressed opinions regarding “bums”.

A loaf of bread won't buy booze or drugs, but $ will.

[Lesbaru]

I always run around believing the best of people. Gullible, I guess. Once my kid and I were driving by our usual gas station and saw a man standing at the corner with a gas can and a sign "need gas". I decided to buy the guy a gallon of gas. Hey, I've run out of gas and not had money to buy it before! So I pulled up to a pump and called the guy over. Nope, he wanted money. Said he didn't need gas at all, he just wanted "a little extra cash".

 

Now whenever I want to give someone "help" I remember that little incident. I think it probably works better to give through organizations. When I was a kid my family got a wonderful huge Christmas gift of food from a church group, and it wasn't even our church! Their donation went directly to where it was needed and for the purpose it was intended.

[ATMouse]

Some of them are also mentally ill and not drunks or junkies.

[+Sarg863]

Its been my experience locally that most are either drunks or drug abusers. Most in this area are one or the other and have absolutely no interest in doing anything but bumming money to get their next high or low. These people have been doing this for years. I understand that people do fall on hard times...been there and done that. Bumming gets them nowhere, well around here most of them have been banned from the property. Keep in mind these people are not homeless. One walks around telling people he has cancer and has 3 months to live. That has been his story for 14 years now. NO you cannot group them all in one pot but having this kind of knowledge makes you a bit more cynical. Help people if you can, but don't promote their activity.

[+Spencersb]

I know the hider of this cache (howdy, Martin!) and he is a responsible member of the local geocaching community (as well as the author of some very intertaining cache logs! ).

 

I've found this cache before. I know the plot, and the story behind it (well, I didn't know about HD's "promises," but I do now), and I LOVE historic old places like this. I would never have expected to find such history in the location this one is in. It is PRIME geocaching material.

 

That said, I was there one afternoon with my then 9yo daughter. No one else around, but there was a bedroll in the corner. I suspect they favor this place because of the windbreak that the brick wall provides.

 

Quoting from one of the article cited above (Thanks QOCMike!):

"We were worried because it was being lost to time and misuse by vagrants," said Sue Williams, 79, a lifetime Evergreen resident.

 

So this problem has been going on longer than the cache has been there. There is at least one homeless shelter a couple of miles from here. I'm familiar with the folks who run it, and they do a tough and largely thankless job. Memphis is a big city. For all our problems, there are ample opportunities for people who want help (real help) to get it.

 

Sounds to me like HD (regional mgmt, not the store manager, who has enough to worry about trying to deter shoplifters) needs to be shown copies of those clippings. Have you thought about contacting someone at the MBJ, where one of the articles was originally published, and asking them to do a follow-up story? That might light a fire under HD.

 

Keep in mind, we're not talking about "down on their luck temporarily displaced" people, nor "mentally ill can't help themselves" folks. We're talking about people who are purposely trashing the urban landscape and vandalizing private property, in this case what some would consider "sacred" property, creating a safety hazard for themselves and the neighborhood. I'm blessed that I have never been in that situation, but for those in here that have, I'm sure that you didn't use your situation as an excuse to leave broken beer bottles in a graveyard.

Edited November 6, 2005 by Spencersb

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

We all have the right to live. I'm sorry that it upsets your game. Are they really bums as you put it. or just good people that have been displaced by social events?

 

Either way they have a right to survive. You aren't talking about stray cats or dogs, but people...yes they are people.

 

Sure you can call your local police to run them off...but to where? Is this a matter of out of sight, out of mind?

 

Play your game some place else.

 

El Diablo

I agree with El Diablo; I say "live and let live". Not only are many homeless people folks who may have had a natural disaster or personal disaster befall them, but some have marginal mental abilities as well, and therefore it can be unrealistic to expect some of them to live much differently unless the social/political structure provides some measure of support to them. So, I say live and let live.

[+Yamahammer]

I found this cache back in the summer. It was a clever hide.

 

With that said, other caches have been archieved for the same reasons you initially listed. No one wants to archieve a cache but sometimes events change the atmosphere. My suggestion is to go get your cache, not alone, as so it doesn't become Geo-Trash. ...

 

As far as everyone's take on your choice of words to describe your frustation, some of it is okay. Some of it got a little out of hand and some small portion took it to you personally. ... but this is what happens when you post it out in public for all to comment.

 

[+deimos444]

I am not getting emotionally involved in this subject like I did in the last homeless rant thread.

My only comment is that these people are a product of the same society that all of us live in.

We are all part of the problem and I kind of feel sorry for them.

Of course, I am a NIMBY too.

 

edited for spelling

Edited November 6, 2005 by deimos444

[+Miragee]

Even if I didn't have a cache in that location, if I saw that a previously-maintained area was being trashed, I would contact Home Depot and pester them until they upheld their obligation to maintain the cemetary as required.

 

I would also contact any local organizations who are tasked with helping the homeless.

 

Maybe, just maybe, if these people are forced to move on one more time, it will be the motivation they need to finally get the help they so obviously need.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Fussing about the situation won't fix it, and harrassing the culprits won't either, so moving it is really your best bet.

 

I do find it interesting that the graves of the dead-and-gone seem to demand more respect than the living now occupying that space, regardless of why they are there..

 

Sociologists and psychiatrists have long struggled with what makes one drop out of society...they don't have an answer, and we're unlikely to find one here.

 

The bottom line is that they occupy that place and the cache should be moved. It's not fair, not right, but it's realistic.

 

On the sociological aspect of all this, I did have an interesting experience recently.

 

I volunteered as a ham radio operator to the Red Cross 2 days after Katrina, and spent the next 30 days living in a tent in an abandoned football field in Biloxi MS' East Point community, doing emergency communications and logistics coordination.

 

I knew nothing about Biloxi when I volunteered, in fact had no idea where the Red Cross would send me. I was just told to pack all provisions for operating in a primitive environment for an extended period.

 

Not that it would have mattered if I had known, but my assignment to Yankee Stadium turned out to be located in The Point, an area the local police refer to as "The Red Zone", the crime-ridden poorest area of one of the poorest cities in the poorest state in the nation. The football stadium we occupied and built a Salvation Army field hospital and distribution center in had been abandoned because it was not safe for high-school games any more.

 

The destruction here was almost absolute - I remember two houses out of all the thousands I saw that were undamaged...all others were heavily damaged or literally reduced to a pile of lumber. The human loss and suffering is beyond description.

 

When the storm surge washed across The Point the stadium where I was had been 9' deep in water flowing at 60+mph, The Point's lowest-lying houses under 21'. Not much structure survives that.

 

However, as the disaster relief effort progressed, things began to settle down. By week three the dead had been recovered, those willing to leave had been relocated, those who insisted on staying were being fed and medical care provided - the focus turned to stabalization, rebuilding and recovery.

 

The Salvation Army distribution center at Yankee Stadium became the focus of the thousands of remaining resident's life - we provided everything from all-volunteer chain-saw crews to clear the streets and get trees off of houses, to handing out food, water, ice, cleaning, health, hygene and personal items, to cleaning crews that threw out damaged contents, ripped out carpets, pressure-washed walls, and bleached everything left to prevent the growth of the ubiquitous and very dangerous black mold.

 

There was no power for miles (still isn't in large areas), no drinkable water, no plumbing - just destruction everywhere. We passed out literally thousands of tents, cots and survival gear to desperate residents living in their yards.

 

I was quite busy, working multiple radio nets during the day, moving supplies around the coast to wherever there was a need, and had command of the entire camp at night, so I rarely got to leave the statdium. The need of the victims for everything was ever-present and sometimes overwhelming.

 

A geocaching friend, also a ham operator, came down to assist me for a few days and we went out for a couple of hours one day to geocache. Sort of a multiple-point mission, as I wanted to look for areas, especially in the Vietnamese community, where people were hiding in their houses, too sick, unwilling or culturally unable to come to us for help, we had to send roving bands of doctors and nurses to them. And why not find a few geocaches along the way?!

 

I was amazed to see, as we drove around, no tents! I had worked my fanny off getting 4,000 tents sent in from France, we'd given them all out, and in my drive around Biloxi I found one house with four tents in the yard. Where the heck did the rest of the tents and cots go? Oh well, that's the least of my worries, so I put it on a back burner.

 

We found no geocaches, by the way, as the places and monuments they were attached to or hidden by were all gone!

 

So, back at the ranch, things are progressing. We open the gates at 7 a.m. and thousands stream through all day, getting one of the 6,000 hot meals the Southern Baptist Convention served out of mobile kitchens three times a day, getting supplies, getting medical aid.

 

The Salvation Army started a program whereby victims could get a $50.00 VISA debit card to spend however they needed for their own disaster relief. We passed out 500 cards a day, starting at 9 a.m. The theory was first-come first-served...victims would, we thought, check in beginning at 9 a.m. and be given a time that same day to return and see a case-worker, to sign up for certain other benefits and get their debit card.

 

So much for theory. Victims started lining up at the gates at 2 a.m. and waited in line until 500 had accumulated, at which time (usually before 7 a.m.) I would have to cut off the line and start turning folks away.

 

Turning folks away broke my heart - anyone so desperate to stand in a line of 500 people waiting hours for a lousy $50.00 gift card was new to me; I often spend that much on dinner and never think about it.

 

Hundreds of these people would still be in line at 1 p.m. in 105° sun on baking asphalt. Men. Women. Children. I felt so bad for the old folks.

 

I spent hours each morning carrying folding chairs to the parking lot, brewing pot after pot of coffee on my little camp stove (the kitchen didn't open until 7 a.m.) and dragging out coolers full of bottled water after the sun rose and that incredible heat began to build.

 

No matter the wait, the lack of facilities, the heat, these folk calmly lined up and waited patiently, most keeping to themselves, some forming small groups and chatting. Absolutely Incredible.

 

At about this same time a local conractor arranged with the city to clean out the destroyed hospitals and some city-owned buildings. He came to me and arranged a deal - we would advertise his temp jobs and recruit workers from among the victims, he had work for all regardless of skill or physical ability. We would feed them breakfast, he'd send a bus to pick them up, work them seven hours and return them by bus to my station, where we would feed them dinner (all free). For this work he paid $11.00 an hour cash at the end of each work day.

 

He printed flyers explaining this deal, I eagerly handed them out to victims and posted them at all gates. What a huge break for these people! I know $77.00 a day isn't much, but it beat the heck out of anything else going on in their lives at that moment!

 

Wanna guess how many of these desperate victims signed up? Not one. Zero. Nada.

 

Hundreds of perfectly healthy men and women would stand in line all day for a box of cereal and toilet paper and a $50.00 gift card, but would not work one hour for $11.00 cash.

 

They would stand in line complaining that the jobs they had at the now-destroyed casinos were gone, and ask "What is the casino gonna do about it?" "Who is gonna take care of me and my kids" they'd ask, but not one signed up for the paying jobs.

 

I was floored. Literally, I had no idea what to make of this. A phrase my grand-mother once said forty years ago came back to me - "Poor folks got poor ways". Until now I had never realized the truth of that.

 

I have had the good fortune to have visited 18 countries and to have lived in 3 (US, UK and Guatemala), and have seen true poverty, where the people simply had few if any choices or options. Consequently I have always believed that in America, where everyone, barring serious mental or physical defect, has choices and chances, that to get poor and STAY poor here you flat have to work at it. There are so may agencies, churches and individuals here to help that it takes years for someone to wear out their welcome at all of them. Staying poor, I believed, was a full-time job!

 

But, I believed that from the viewpoint of a casual passerby - here's a guy asking for change...get a job, you bum! See someone sleeping on a park bench...go to a shelter, fool!

 

I never stopped to consider the absolute truth of the matter - Poor folks got poor ways.

 

By the fourth week FEMA was passing out checks to victims for $2,770.00 to get them by for a bit.

 

I went to dinner one night off-site and stopped by Wal-Mart, which company was happy to cash the FEMA checks. Every checkout line was filled with homeless victims, shopping carts loaded with color TVs and stereos and such.

 

I knew then it was time for me to go, and I left the next day.

 

I will never look at the homeless, the disenfranchised, the supposed victim, in the same way again. Regardless of all the namby-pamby social theory, at some level they are there because they choose to be there.

 

Ed

Edited November 6, 2005 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+deimos444]

Now that was quite the ramble dude.

Congrats.

[Lesbaru]

Thank you for writing about your experience in Biloxi. It meant a lot to me that you would take the time to write it all down, and I read it twice. I won't say I enjoyed it (it is a sad story on so many levels) but I deeply appreciate it.

Thank you.

[+mtn-man]

Read the logs for Bettis' Plot and see if I did the right thing.

This topic is flying all around. If you have a comment about the question asked, then please feel free to post. Please bring this one back to the topic regarding whether he did the right thing or not.

 

Thanks.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Well, if we're limited to the exact topic, it'd have to be yes or no on the only question asked

Am I being a jack@ss?

 

No.

[+Bob Blaylock]

  I've fallen on very hard times myself.  I'm still in the process of picking myself up off the ground.  Having once held a cushy computer programming/data analysis job at $30/hour, I'm currently working for minimum wage at a facility run by my church's welfare system, where I am being prepared hopefully to find a new career, in a whole different direction, that may well bring me back up to my previous standard of living.  Before my current job, I was working as a day laborer through an outfit called (commercial content removed by moderator).  Before that, I was unemployed for two years.

 

  Anyone who is willing to do hard, honest work, who lives near (name removed by moderator) branch, and who can pass a very simple test meant to weed out those who are excessively prone to stealing, drug abuse, and violence, can get work there.  Most (name removed by moderator) ready assignments actually pay a little bit above minimum wage.

 

  I've toyed with the idea of printing up some flyers to hand out to panhandlers who accost me.  These flyers would explain how to get to (name removed by moderator), and how to get signed up there.  They would bluntly make the point that I now work very hard for what little money I earn, and that anyone who is willing to work as hard as I do can make as much money as I make.  Someone who is thus willing to work doesn't have any need to be begging for handouts from me; and I am not at all inclined to share my meager hard-earned income with those who are not willing to work as hard as I do for it.

 

  I gave up on the flyer idea.  Most of the panhandlers I meet, I am quite certain would not be ablewilling to pass even (name removed by moderator) low standards; and I would not be doing (name removed by moderator) any favor by sending such as these to them.  Some of my (name removed by moderator) colleagues were homeless, but there's a very noticable difference between them and the homeless that one encounters begging in the streets.  Nearly the whole of this difference seems to be in the willingness to at least try to make one's living in an honest way.

 

  There are five (name removed by moderator) branches in Memphis.  If any of the slightly-living inhabitants of this site were worthy of any of our sympathy, tolerance, or concern, that's where they'd be.

Edited November 7, 2005 by mtn-man

[+mtn-man]

<Advertisement clipped>

 

There are five <snipped> branches <snipped>

We don't need commercials for temporary labor companies in the forums. Please stay on topic and avoid commercial content.

 

Thanks.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Did you do the right thing disabling the cache? Nope. You should have archived it.

You noted that the area is 'dodgy'. You take offense to the habitues, but you knew that they were there. This seems like a very poor place to put a cache, considering your feelings about the habitues. Now, you want to clear them out so your cache will be suitable for others. Sounds like a very poor choice of location.

Myself, I consider any cemetery cache to be disrespectful. I would never place one in a cemetery, nor will I ever do one placed in a cemetery.

I have done caches where there were homeless people living. That is my choice to do those caches. If you do not like the situation at your cache, you should not have put it there in the first place.

Outside of forcibly moving the bums to someone else's cache location, I find your position to be presumptuous.

Nope. You did the wrong thing. Archive the cache.

[+El Diablo]

Read the logs for Bettis' Plot and see if I did the right thing.

This topic is flying all around. If you have a comment about the question asked, then please feel free to post. Please bring this one back to the topic regarding whether he did the right thing or not.

 

Thanks.

Back on topic as mtn-man asks. You did the right thing in archiving. My next question is....did you have permission to place it there in the first place?

 

El Diablo+

[+Mr Lost]

Thank you all for your input here. Honestly, I posted more out of curiosity regarding most geocachers opinions regarding this situation.

 

Alabamarambler, thanks to you in particular, for your service to the Katrina victims. I work in the casino business in Tunica, and have several friends whose lives were completely destroyed by the events on the gulf coast. Through my church, I opened a guest room, guest bathroom, and spare office space to any small family that needed the space, but we never got any takers.

 

At any rate, I am going to stay on HD regional for maintaining the plot. It is their responsibility per the real estate deal that they signed. Keeping vagrants out of the area falls under that set of responsabilities. I am not going to archive the geocache.

 

I sense that emotions are getting out of hand on this one, so I am going to leave it open through the night, but I will close the topic in the morning.

 

Thank you all for responding.

[+Bandit & Magna]

I know this may sound callous, but we have programs to help the homeless - if they want help. There are jobs they can do if they want to work - they might not be a dream job but it is money to get by on.

 

Call the Department of Human Services first and send them out. If they won't do it then call the police and they can point them in the direction of the department of human services or relocate them.

 

If they want to better them selves then you are doing them a favor. If they do not want to better themselves then you are doing everyone a favor.

[+chstress53]

I think you did not go far enough I would remove the cache. The situation has been going onthe entire time the cache has been there on and off. This in my opinion will not change and it would be better to archive . But if I liked the place myself I myself would organize Cito for the place monthly, making a change for the better.Also getting to know the people involved they all have their own story, It could even be mental illness But involving the home depot idoes not make sense unless it was for a cito, after a year of Cito's the atmosphere may change to place another cache, but I would not seek this cache.

[+hndlbr]

I would not encourage cachers to go at night knowing that they could be approaching a bad situation. I would not like to come upon this at night and I am 6'2" and 230 lbs.

[+Mr Lost]

At Jamie Z's suggestion, I am reopening this topic.

 

There is quite a bit going on with this location, and I will keep you posted as time permits.

[+Colorado Cacher]

Read the logs for Bettis' Plot and see if I did the right thing.

 

I have great sympathy for the plight of the homeless, but I have absolutely NO tolerance of bums. My city is pretty good at keeping panhandlers off the streets, but it is like dealing with mildew in a shower. Once a little starts, it grows at a very rapid rate. The bums who seem to have taken residency at this location are trashing it, leaving garbage all over the place, and even camping out on the marble slabs that cover the ground at the graves themselves.

 

I placed a geocache at this location specifically for the 'wow' factor, and to bring to the forefront of peoples minds the social value that we place on the final resting place of others. Respect for the grounds is paramount, and the homeless bums who encamp here are destroying the location. The local Home Depot (which backs up to the location) is responsible for maintaining the plot, and it is getting overgrown.

 

I also have an ulterior and somewhat selfish motive here. I want geocachers to be able to hunt my geocache without being annoyed by these people. I will not hesitate to call the local constabulary on thes folks. Am I being a jack@ss?

First of all let me say I aint even gonna read the above mentioned post at that cache.

 

What I will say is this:

 

1. I have worked in Homeless shelters and people can seek refuge and food there along with many missions. I have seen Red Cross justify doing only what they feel necessary as their duty in a shelter. I have seen Salvation Army come in and take over where Red Cross left off, and put Red Cross to absolute total shame in regards to their treating people humanely. Blew my mind to see Salvation Army install big screen tv's and restaurant grade coffee makers, etc. Needless to say Salvation Army sees my money now, not Red Cross.

 

2. I have arrested and seen homeless people with more money in their pockets from panhandling than you can have saved in your bank account. I do not give them money. I always refer them to a local shelter or mission. Remember this-when they approach you in the parking lot as you have your car door halfway open and hand them a dollar-are they wanting a monetary donation or a simple opportunity to pull you out of your car while the keys and your stuff. kid(s), etc. are in it and drive off? If you have the seatbelt fastened with your shoulder strap on you can be strangled with that strap pretty easily. My mother now thanks me for that one. I just happened to be there when Mr. homeless tried to get money from her and the 15 year old girl sitting next to her in the car. Or did He want the young girl and the car?

 

3. Alot of the homeless are mentally ill and only need medication to have a simply better and enjoyable life. Many people can actually go to a drug manufacturers website, look for their indigent drug programs rules and thus apply. Probably an easy 95% dont know this and/or dont have access to a computer/mail to do so. PLEASE spread the word.

 

4. Are you being a jacka&%? Not unless you are causing them or yourselves bodily harm in any way possible.

 

5. Here in Colorado Springs the city actually passed a city ordinance a few years back to make it illegal to stand at street corners and panhandle. You now see nobody panhandling. If you drive thirty five miles south to Pueblo you can see them on the corners panhandling, its very interesting culturally to see the difference so "close apart".

 

Happy Cacheing.

[+dogbreathcanada]

I have great sympathy for the plight of the homeless, but I have absolutely NO tolerance of bums. My city is pretty good at keeping panhandlers off the streets, but it is like dealing with mildew in a shower. Once a little starts, it grows at a very rapid rate. The bums who seem to have taken residency at this location are trashing it, leaving garbage all over the place, and even camping out on the marble slabs that cover the ground at the graves themselves.

I'd have to say that you have absolutely NO sympathy for the plight of the homeless. I especially like your comparison of the homeless to mildew. That's the statement of a truly empathetic human being.

 

You did right by archiving. You do wrong by blaming the homeless because you can't enjoy your game. Blame society. Blame your government who refuse to help. Blame yourself, who finds it more convenient to cast aspersions rather than aid and assistance.

 

EDIT: Didn't read the entire thread when I responded. Eventually saw mtn-man's post. Added an answer to the OP's question to at least bring my post partially on-topic.

Edited November 11, 2005 by dogbreathcanada

[+Jamie Z]

At Jamie Z's suggestion, I am reopening this topic.

I didn't necessarily suggest reopening the topic as much as have a discussion about the cache. I gave Mr Lost my thoughts on the matter, and for those interested, I'll summarize them here.

 

I'm really amazed at how many people don't even mention geocaching in their responses in this thread. Rambler, what an interesting story, but I don't understand the relevence. This is a geocaching forum, not a political room.

 

Anyway, I told Mr Lost that if it were my cache, I'd find the people charged with maintaining the cemetery in question. Clearly they've not done so. The cemetery is in shambles from age and is being vandalized currently.

 

My opinion is that Mr Lost should use geocaching as a vehicle to help keep the cemetery nice. We could arrange a mini CITO event and incorporate the help of law enforcement to discourage further littering and vandalism to the site.

 

Unless their last name happens to be Ceips, the people responsible for this area will see that geocachers are interested in helping the cemetery and will participate with us in that goal.

 

Jamie

[+dogbreathcanada]

I'm really amazed at how many people don't even mention geocaching in their responses in this thread. Rambler.

Perhaps if Mr. Lost hadn't described his plight with such callous inhumanity, more people would have kept their responses purely to geocaching. But Mr. Lost, in showing his lack of humanity, received an appropriate response from the humanity that does frequent these forums.

 

The homeless aren't mildew.

[+sept1c_tank]

If the place is cleaned, repaired, maintained and patrolled, the houseless people will leave on their own. That sounds like a big project that a retailer would attempt to avoid. But as Jamie and some others have pointed out, if the place is the wow that you say it is, community groups may come together and make it happen.

 

I think disabling the cache was the right thing to do. At this point I would also encourage interested and responsible parties to improve the property and allow your bums to evolve as they will.

 

I would not call the constable.

[tinkernoonoo]

You know what? I don't care if this is off-topic. I'm absolutely astounded. I hope none of you "bum-haters" dare to call yourselves "Christian". After all, Jesus and his followers were bums too, weren't they?

 

Imagine yourselves without work, without resources, without family, maybe with health or addiction problems or mental illness; imagine yourselves living on the street because you have nowhere else to go, having to steal or sell your bodies in order to survive, day after day after day. Life on the street is hell on the body and the soul. It extracts a massive toll, so have a little compassion and try to imagine that these "bums" were once innocents, too - but somewhere along the line they were dealt a very bad hand. Maybe "hallowed ground" and "good manners" mean different things to people who are sick, hungry, and haven't showered in weeks, than to those of us who are fortunate and affluent enough to be able to engage in the pastime of geocaching. I'm so disgusted with you people I could puke.

[+Skeleton Crew]

Thankyou Tinker, save some room in that bucket for me!!

[+Wacka]

Koombayah.....

[+mtn-man]

You know what?  I don't care if this is off-topic.  I'm absolutely astounded.  I hope none of you "bum-haters" dare to call yourselves "Christian".  After all, Jesus and his followers were bums too, weren't they?

 

Imagine yourselves without work, without resources, without family, maybe with health or addiction problems or mental illness; imagine yourselves living on the street because you have nowhere else to go, having to steal or sell your bodies in order to survive, day after day after day.  Life on the street is hell on the body and the soul.  It extracts a massive toll, so have a little compassion and try to imagine that these "bums" were once innocents, too - but somewhere along the line they were dealt a very bad hand.  Maybe "hallowed ground" and "good manners" mean different things to people who are sick, hungry, and haven't showered in weeks, than to those of us who are fortunate and affluent enough to be able to engage in the pastime of geocaching.  I'm so disgusted with you people I could puke.

You are correct. Totally off topic. Let me remind you of some forum guidelines.

Some things to keep in mind when posting:

 

Respect: Respect the guidelines for forum usage, and site usage. Respect Groundspeak, its employees, volunteers, yourself, fellow community members, and guests on these boards. Whether a community member has one post or 5,000 posts, they deserve the same respect.

 

Personal Attacks and Flames will not be tolerated. If you want to praise or criticize, give examples as to why it is good or bad, general attacks on a person or idea will not be tolerated.

 

Keep on topic: Responses to a particular thread should be on-topic and pertain to the discussion. Users should use the New Topic button to start a new discussion which would otherwise be off-topic in the current thread. Threads that are off topic may be closed by the moderator.

 

This is the second third time I have asked for this topic to stay on topic.

The next time the topic will be closed.

Edited November 11, 2005 by mtn-man

[+One of the Texas Vikings]

You know what?  I don't care if this is off-topic.  I'm absolutely astounded.  I hope none of you "bum-haters" dare to call yourselves "Christian".  After all, Jesus and his followers were bums too, weren't they?

 

Imagine yourselves without work, without resources, without family, maybe with health or addiction problems or mental illness; imagine yourselves living on the street because you have nowhere else to go, having to steal or sell your bodies in order to survive, day after day after day.  Life on the street is hell on the body and the soul.  It extracts a massive toll, so have a little compassion and try to imagine that these "bums" were once innocents, too - but somewhere along the line they were dealt a very bad hand.  Maybe "hallowed ground" and "good manners" mean different things to people who are sick, hungry, and haven't showered in weeks, than to those of us who are fortunate and affluent enough to be able to engage in the pastime of geocaching.  I'm so disgusted with you people I could puke.

Except the woman, who had her three year old on the median of the highway, with her and a sign wanting good people to help.. She was making $250. a day, tax free !!!!

God helps those who help themselves, like El Diablo did.

 

You did the right thing with the cache

Edited November 12, 2005 by One of the Texas Vikings

[+dogbreathcanada]

Except the woman, who had her three year old on the median of the highway, with her and a sign wanting good people to help.. She was making $250. a day, tax free !!!!

Really? How does anybody made $250 per day, tax-free? Urban legend, no doubt.

 

You gotta love the "me me me" mentality of Republicans.

[Keystone]

Closing thread due to posters' inability to remain on-topic.