Terrain 1 Is Wheelchair Accessable?

2k · November 2, 2005

Please check out this log on one of my caches.

You have put out over 35 caches and still don't know that a terrain 1 is wheelchair accessable???????? This is definitely a terrain 2. There is NO WAY a wheelchair bound person would be able to cross the thick grass and the heavy brush in the woods to get to this cache. Please read the instructions when you log in a new cache.

Is this true?

If I give a 1 for terrain it has to be wheelchair accessable?

Edited November 2, 2005 by Milbank

24.7k · November 2, 2005

Yes it's supposed to be.

* Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

** Suitable for small children. (Terrain is generally along marked trails, there are no steep elevation changes or heavy overgrowth. Less than a 2 mile hike required.)

*** Not suitable for small children. (The average adult or older child should be OK depending on physical condition. Terrain is likely off-trail. May have one or more of the following: some overgrowth, some steep elevation changes, or more than a 2 mile hike.)

**** Experienced outdoor enthusiasts only. (Terrain is probably off-trail. Will have one or more of the following: very heavy overgrowth, very steep elevation (requiring use of hands), or more than a 10 mile hike. May require an overnight stay.)

***** Requires specialized equipment and knowledge or experience, (boat, 4WD, rock climbing, SCUBA, etc) or is otherwise extremely difficult.

1.2k · November 2, 2005

1700+ posts in the forums and you didn't know that?

With a disabled wife who caches with me, mis-rated caches are a pet peeve of ours.

The terrain rating include all the way up to the cache...if you have a flat, paved path to within 5 feet of the cache, and then you have to go down a ditch...it's NOT a 1-star.

Ed

1.2k · November 2, 2005

please also see:

http://www.handicaching.com/

38.2k · November 2, 2005

Is this true?
If I give a 1 for terrain it has to be wheelchair accessable?

Yes.

3.8k · November 2, 2005

Is this true?
If I give a 1 for terrain it has to be wheelchair accessable?

Yes.

For every 1 terrain cache that we do that is truly a 1, we probably do 8-9 that are 1.5 or higher. We did a number of caches in Long Beach, CA in September that the owner rated at 1, but required climbing to get to the containers!!

What is it about 1=wheelchair accessible that some people don't get?

One smart-a$^ once told me that it counted if the cacher was standing in a wheelchair.

YES!! If you call the T a 1, it has to be wheelchair accessible.

3.2k · November 2, 2005

Make it a 1.5 - that's all it takes.

My son broke his neck in the Army 10 years ago. He can't possibly do many of the caches folks rate as a 1. It sucks. Make it a 1.5 - no big deal to rate it that way.

November 2, 2005

This was the first I'd heard of this as well. Most of my hides are rather strenuous hikes, but I had one in a park rated as 1 star for terrain. You have to go onto the grass to get the cache though, so I've just upped it to a 1.5. Thanks for the info.

38.2k · November 2, 2005

This was the first I'd heard of this as well. Most of my hides are rather strenuous hikes, but I had one in a park rated as 1 star for terrain. You have to go onto the grass to get the cache though, so I've just upped it to a 1.5. Thanks for the info.

If you place a cache, on the submission form next to terrain and difficulty it says:

Overall Difficulty Rating

(1 is easiest, 5 is hardest. Try this system to rate your cache)

Overall Terrain Rating

(1 is easiest, 5 is hardest. Try this system to rate your cache)

If you click on that link you will see the rating system.

7.3k · November 2, 2005

Please check out this log on one of my caches.

My cache page

You have put out over 35 caches and still don't know that a terrain 1 is wheelchair accessable???????? This is definitely a terrain 2. There is NO WAY a wheelchair bound person would be able to cross the thick grass and the heavy brush in the woods to get to this cache. Please read the instructions when you log in a new cache.

Is this true?

If I give a 1 for terrain it has to be wheelchair accessable?

It's too bad the person didn't just send you a friendly imformative email. He assumed that you knew the guidline and were ignoring it. And he didn't need to air his irratation in such a public and rude manner. He could email you with direct concerns, and then just post a brief note that maybe the terrain is a bit higher, just for people who have to come after him to the cache.

November 2, 2005

I think a lot of people do not know what is and is not wheelchair accesable, and that is a pitty. Spend some time in one it's not that fun. I don't want to imagine the fustration some people have because others did not think their ratting out.

2k · November 2, 2005

:rolleyes:

I went and changed them all to at least a 1.5

Who I'm I to decide if they are wheelchair accessable or not.

Even if they maybe wheelchair accessable now come this winter they may not be so I'm playing it safe and making them all 1.5 or higher.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Milbank

6.5k · November 2, 2005

1700+ posts in the forums and you didn't know that?

With a disabled wife who caches with me, mis-rated caches are a pet peeve of ours.

The terrain rating include all the way up to the cache...if you have a flat, paved path to within 5 feet of the cache, and then you have to go down a ditch...it's NOT a 1-star.

Ed

So are people in wheelchairs supposed to able to just get to the spot, or get them and retrieve the cache? I a cache hidden Under a bush not a 1?

2k · November 3, 2005

I looked at the guy's profile (the guy that logged my cache) and from the photo's he has been posting it does not look like he or his wife are in a wheelchair.

I understand I can't really go by just that as he may have a son or someone else that is caching with them or maybe the person taking all the photo's is in the wheel chair.

The cache he post about I never thought of it as being hard. You park about 40 yards from it. Walk along a tree line in mowed grass and then walk into the tree's about ten feet.

But then again I'm not in a wheelchair and I'm sure as he said it someone in a wheelchair would never get in the woods to get it.

Is there any special cache rating for fat cachers, :blink:

Just kidding.......

6.4k · November 3, 2005

So are people in wheelchairs supposed to able to just get to the spot, or get them and retrieve the cache? I a cache hidden Under a bush not a 1?

Many people who cache in wheelchairs do not cache alone. So their caching partner can make the final grab. That's not the same as leaving the wheelchair-bound person back on the trail.

Also, every wheelchair-bound person I know has something like this:

Something like that could retrieve the cache from under a bush or pile of sticks.

24.7k · November 3, 2005

Anyone who doesn't walk in someone elses shoes is just making an educated guess as to what someone can or can't do. Some have more experience than others but for most it's just your best guess, and that's all they can ask you to do.

6.5k · November 3, 2005

Many people who cache in wheelchairs do not cache alone. So their caching partner can make the final grab. That's not the same as leaving the wheelchair-bound person back on the trail.

I wouldn't think many would cache alone. And if they do have someone else there, it wouldn't matter if the cache is right on the sidewalk or across 20ft of grass...

What I'm asking is, is a 1 a cache which is totally findable by someone in a wheelchair by themself? or if they can get there but not recover the cache by themself? or what?

6.4k · November 3, 2005

Many people who cache in wheelchairs do not cache alone. So their caching partner can make the final grab. That's not the same as leaving the wheelchair-bound person back on the trail.

I wouldn't think many would cache alone. And if they do have someone else there, it wouldn't matter if the cache is right on the sidewalk or across 20ft of grass...

What I'm asking is, is a 1 a cache which is totally findable by someone in a wheelchair by themself? or if they can get there but not recover the cache by themself? or what?

You would be surprised, but just like able-bodied people do tough hikes solo, so do handicapped people.

But back to your question.

The terrain rating is just that; the terrain you will most likely cover going to the cache.

The terrain rating doesn't cover retrieving the cache, that falls under the difficulty rating.

24.7k · November 3, 2005

There is a gap between the terrain and the last bit to get the cache. Very often you can have a nice smoothe trail, then a 10' climb up an embankment. That gap is something that even Handicaching has a tough time with as TAR has noted in some of his posts.

1.2k · November 3, 2005

So why is the Wheelchair accessible button there for in the cache attributes?

38.2k · November 3, 2005

So why is the Wheelchair accessible button there for in the cache attributes?

Because way too many people never read the suggested definitions and rate their caches wrong.

7.2k · November 3, 2005

So why is the Wheelchair accessible button there for in the cache attributes?

Because the rating definitions where there long before the attributes, maybe?

November 3, 2005

I recently adopted a cache and was able to add attributes (including the "wheelchair accessible" one) when I edited the listing. This seems to be an easy way to identify the easily-accessible caches, even on older listings.

When I posted my own cache, I saw nothing in the "new cache listing" form that said level 1 terrain must be wheelchair accessible. Clicking the link to help rate terrain and search difficulty didn't specify this either. Using this form could generate a "1" terrain rating for a site that had, say, a small ditch or short hill that would pose no problem for a non-wheelchair-bound cacher.

I've looked, but can't find it: where is it said that level 1 terrain must be wheelchair accessible <_< ?

November 3, 2005

I went and changed them all to at least a 1.5

Who I'm I to decide if they are wheelchair accessable or not.

Even if they maybe wheelchair accessable now come this winter they may not be so I'm playing it safe and making them all 1.5 or higher.

That is too bad, especially if you have a cache or caches that may actually be wheelchair accessible. There is a thread that started in Geocaching Topics that may prove an interesting reading for those interested in handicaching and how their caches can be set up for handicaching.

You are correct about not having the right reference to make a determination of "wheelchair accessible," yet you can make a guess at least. As I wrote on the subject in the Geocaching Topics forum, I have encountered numerous caches that I believed were wheelchair accesible, with no mention on the page by the owner. In these cases, I am reluctant to go to handicaching.com to enter my opinion, since I am not bound by wheelchair or disabled, so I believe my perspective on rating a cache as such could be awkward at best, terribly misleading at the worst.

However, while I am not comforatable on arbitrarily giving a handicaching rating to someone else's cache, I am comfortable at attempting to take a guess on the caches that I own and for which I am responsible to maintain. My reasoning? If a handicacher makes a suggestion on my cache that it is indeed not wheelchair accessible, then I am more aware of the situation and able to delete the handicaching rating and/or modify my cache page, or modify the cache. I believe a wheelchair cacher would at least appreciate your attempt to consider their caching style, and be more suggestive than flaming in their remarks.

24.7k · November 3, 2005

...However, while I am not comforatable on arbitrarily giving a handicaching rating to someone else's cache, ...

If I'm not mistaken Team Spike has the site set up to average together multiple ratings on a single cache. So if someone doesn't like your rating they can add their own and average it out.

November 3, 2005

just tack on a half star (1.5) and call it even

November 3, 2005

...However, while I am not comforatable on arbitrarily giving a handicaching rating to someone else's cache, ...

If I'm not mistaken Team Spike has the site set up to average together multiple ratings on a single cache. So if someone doesn't like your rating they can add their own and average it out.

Yes, that's right. The idea is if enough people rate a cache, the "incorrect" rating will be averaged out. However the individual ratings are still there to be seen so that a disabled person can make their own mind up.

After all, I think that what is imporant is that a disabled person be given enough information to decide if it is doable for them. A 1 star doesn't tell anyone much really. Not all disabled people are in wheelchairs.

Andy

1.2k · November 3, 2005

I recently adopted a cache and was able to add attributes (including the "wheelchair accessible" one) when I edited the listing. This seems to be an easy way to identify the easily-accessible caches, even on older listings.

When I posted my own cache, I saw nothing in the "new cache listing" form that said level 1 terrain must be wheelchair accessible. Clicking the link to help rate terrain and search difficulty didn't specify this either. Using this form could generate a "1" terrain rating for a site that had, say, a small ditch or short hill that would pose no problem for a non-wheelchair-bound cacher.

I've looked, but can't find it: where is it said that level 1 terrain must be wheelchair accessible ?

You are right, nowhere on the "new cache listing" page or the "rating" site does it say anything about wheelchair accesible being a 1. Like you said, only on the cache attribute page can you put an icon on the page if it is.

Maybe clayjar could change his rating page?

5k · November 3, 2005

Clicking the link to help rate terrain and search difficulty didn't specify this either. Using this form could generate a "1" terrain rating for a site that had, say, a small ditch or short hill that would pose no problem for a non-wheelchair-bound cacher.

I've looked, but can't find it: where is it said that level 1 terrain must be wheelchair accessible ?

You are right, nowhere on the "new cache listing" page or the "rating" site does it say anything about wheelchair accesible being a 1. Like you said, only on the cache attribute page can you put an icon on the page if it is.

Maybe clayjar could change his rating page?

Once you fill out the form to rate the terrain rating for the cache, it gives you the suggested rating for your cache, plus it gives a summary of all ratings. Under 1-star, the first thing it says is Handicapped accessible.

It does say it, but you actually have to use the tool.

Jamie

November 4, 2005

I've been scouting out hiding places specifically for terrain of ones. I donated my dad's wheelchairs long ago, when he passed.

I put a chair on the ground next to to where the cache is hid and reach for it.

I think:

Can I get it without leaning too far or flipping the chair over?

Could I have wheeled here and out of here without help?

Most of these are parking lot hides. The thrill of the find is different for each of us. Some people need a hard hike to make it worth it and others have to load out of the van, wheel over, catch their breath and _hope_ its rated correctly, to have a smile (and a smiley).

CiC

November 4, 2005

Edit: nevermind. I attempted to get the site to give results and provide a URL to that specific spot, but it backfired on me.

Here is the quote from a completed form and results:

"Terrain rating: 1

* Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)"

Edited November 4, 2005 by Jeep_Dog

November 4, 2005

"Terrain rating: 1

* Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)"

Ooooh! I see! I used the tool. I just didn't bother reading past the "Terrain rating: 1" part. Thanks.

I agree with IBcrashen - could this be added to the rating page?

November 4, 2005

I think a lot of people do not know what is and is not wheelchair accesable, and that is a pitty. Spend some time in one it's not that fun. I don't want to imagine the fustration some people have because others did not think their ratting out.

I whole-heartedly agree. One of my best friends is disabled and it still never ceases to amaze me how many "accessible" places we go to. They claim accessibilty while obviously not really knowing what that means.

But in limited defense of the rest of the world, I suppose if it isn't something you regularly think about you might not think of some little things as being an obstacle to somebody that has a disability.

A curb, for instance may seem insignificant to most. But if it's between the path and the cache with no way around, the 1 becomes a 1.5.

November 4, 2005

Handicapped does not equal wheelchair. For terrain, wheelchair is the most challenging handicap to consider, but it is not the only one. There are many people who are handicapped that have done much more than get over a curb. I think it's the wording that should be changed, from 'handicapped accessible' to 'wheelchair accessible'.

Edited November 4, 2005 by Devil's_Advocate

38.2k · November 5, 2005

Handicapped does not equal wheelchair. For terrain, wheelchair is the most challenging handicap to consider, but it is not the only one. There are many people who are handicapped that have done much more than get over a curb. I think it's the wording that should be changed, from 'handicapped accessible' to 'wheelchair accessible'.

There are all kinds of handicaps and people have varying degrees of ability to deal with them. I recall a legless man thru hiking the Appalachain Trail. But generally speaking "handicap accessible" does mean wheelchair accessible. The handicap stall in the bathroom and the handicap parking spots have a picture of a wheelchair, not crutches.

November 5, 2005

But generally speaking "handicap accessible" does mean wheelchair accessible. The handicap stall in the bathroom and the handicap parking spots have a picture of a wheelchair, not crutches.

There is probably a legal definition of "accessible" (perhaps in the Americans with Disabilities Act), however what is relevent in this discussion is: how do I indicate whether someone with a specific set of disabilities (wheelchair, crutches, severe back pain, etc.) can do my cache? Using a symbol and rating 1 for terrain I don't believe provides enough information for someone to make a decision. I would think that many disabled people like to challenge themselves, both physically and mentally.

Andy

1.7k · November 6, 2005

If I give a 1 for terrain it has to be wheelchair accessable?

No one knows what "wheelchair accessible" means/is in the gc.com rating system.

I sent an email to http://www.handicaching.com/ asking:

Can you give me a link to your definition of wheelchair accessible.

Andy (Team Spike) of handicaching.com replied:

The idea behind handicaching.com is that no one (either us or the raters)
state that a cache is "wheelchair accessible" or "accessible". Instead

raters enter some facts about the route to the cache and the cache itself.

Someone who is in a wheelchair or disabled in other ways can look at the

ratings and decide if they want to do the cache or not, *based on their own

abilities*.

I think it is a red herring to try and look for a universal description for

accessibility for geocaching. For example, my wife is disabled. She is not

in a wheelchair but on most days she can manage small inclines but cannot go

further than 400ft. Someone in a wheelchair might be able to push their

chair further than 400ft, but perhaps not up a small incline. If a cache is

rated as "wheelchair accessible" it doesn't really help people like my wife.

All they know is that the route to the cache is likely flat and smooth and

could be a long distance - too far for her to walk. Handicaching.com aims to

be a universal system - useful for anyone with any kind of disability, from

wheelchair users to back pain suffers.

Now, if you look at the rating system, a rating of H11111 should be the most

accessible to disabled people. But still, it is not just a cache for

wheelchair users.

So, in conclusion, handicaching.com has purposely avoided stating that any

cache fits any specific description. We aim to empower disabled users to

make more informed decisions, not tell them which caches to do. [emphasis added]

I hope that answers your question.

regards,

Andy (Team Spike)

They have a rating system that rates factors independently. To receive all ones in their system the ratings are as follows:

1 = Distance to cache = Less than 500ft (150m)
1 = Route surface = Paved/tarmac/smooth

1 = Route slope = Flat

1 = Route obstructions = None

1 = Cache height = 2ft to 3ft above ground (60cm to 1m)

If you would like to see the rest of the ratings you can find the rating form here -- http://www.handicaching.com/yourrating.php

I'm sure they would be very appreciative it you rated your caches in their system then you don't have to worry about the gc.com rating system so much as far as handicap ratings are concerned. You might even give a link to your rating in their system if you use the handicapped accessible icon.

November 8, 2005

Something else to consider..... When re-hiding a terrain 1 cache, put it back where you found it.

We tried very hard to keep a cache wheelchair accessible but gave up because almost everybody tried to "improve" the hide and put it out of reach from the trail.

1.4k · November 8, 2005

av8ndv8, why not just note in the cache description that you do NOT want people to hide it better than they found it, to leave it exactly the same for more accessibility?

38.2k · November 8, 2005

There is probably a legal definition of "accessible" (perhaps in the Americans with Disabilities Act), however what is relevent in this discussion is: how do I indicate whether someone with a specific set of disabilities (wheelchair, crutches, severe back pain, etc.) can do my cache? Using a symbol and rating 1 for terrain I don't believe provides enough information for someone to make a decision. I would think that many disabled people like to challenge themselves, both physically and mentally.

The accepted definition of 1 star terrain says:

Handicapped accessible. (Terrain is likely to be paved, is relatively flat, and less than a 1/2 mile hike is required.)

That should give the handicapped geocacher a starting point. It doesn't tell them everything they need to know, but they can obtain additional information from the logs, or the owner if they want. It would not be practical to list the appropriateness of the cache for every conceivable type of handicap. All we can say as a cache owner is that the terrain is paved, or flat enough to allow a wheelchair to negotiate it. Its then up the the geocacher to determine he is able to attempt it, taking into consideration his own handicap.

November 9, 2005

av8ndv8, why not just note in the cache description that you do NOT want people to hide it better than they found it, to leave it exactly the same for more accessibility?

We did but it didn't help. If I were to do it again I'd put the description in HTML with flashing red lights around "Please keep this cache wheelchair accesible, place it back where you found it". Then put the exact same test in the hint.

November 9, 2005

Wow. None of the caches I've found with a "1" terrain rating would have been wheel chair accessable. I can understand their frustration.

Terrain 1 Is Wheelchair Accessable?

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