Texas Caches

October 30, 2005

Am probably going to Texas next year to visit family and do some caching,

Not sure about doing or taking the kids to caches like this one.

October 30, 2005

Am probably going to Texas next year to visit family and do some caching,
Not sure about doing or taking the kids to caches like this one.

Texas cache

Sounds like an awesome cache to me, almost worth the trip out there on its own.

3.8k · October 30, 2005

I was about to agree with you Kev, then I realised that Edinburgh has got an excellent cache that tells you all about Burke & Hare, showing you the places that they commited their grisly deeds, and the final find is indeed grisly too. but I really enjoyed doing it, and would be happy for my daughter to do it as she would learn about the bad side to history as well as the good side.

The only real difference between the two, is that Burke & Hare done their crimes nearly 200 years ago, these murders were done just over 20 years ago. Perhaps you think it is wrong because it has happened in your lifetime, but if the cache was made in 100 years time, or it happened 100 years in the past, would you still object to it?

Another good example is the Jack the Ripper series in London.

October 30, 2005

Perhaps it's the content on the cache description page that I find objectionable. I would prefer that the reader had to click to read it on a different page, rather than have all the sensationalist details laid bare for even the youngest person to find.

2k · October 30, 2005

Looking at some of the notes on the page, it looks as though the setter has got the wrong raceway anyway! :lol:

6.2k · October 30, 2005

Perhaps it's the content on the cache description page that I find objectionable...

I agree. A few well chosen words and a link would be better than the full story, if only to save some ink when printing the cache page out.

Someone I once worked with was murdered in a house not far from where I live - the last thing I'd do is place a cache there! Likewise, the home of one of the London Bombers (7/7) is only a couple of miles from me. Good tatse suggests unless it's 'historic' one should avoid making a geocaching song and dance about such locations. :drama:

SP

Edited to add it's good to see it listed as child friendly! :lol:

Edited October 30, 2005 by Simply Paul

1.7k · October 30, 2005

Try this Texas cache.. Grizzly event but a teriffic cache. The ranch is a very moving place to visit and it ranks as one of the best caches I've ever done. A testement to how good virtual caches can be.

Alex.

3.1k · October 30, 2005

I did have to laugh when the owner stated that the cache was child friendly!!

3.8k · October 30, 2005

This cache was place just a few days ago. The killer was executed five years ago. Tomorrow is Halloween. Sounds like someone trying to make a fun Halloween cache.

6.2k · October 31, 2005

At the wrong location though - perhaps?

Maybe it's a British Sensibilities thing, but I felt the cache was in fairly poor taste, especially presented 'inches deep in blood' as it was. No doubt it doesn't fall foul of any GC rules or guidelines, but unless it's a striking location (and it doesn't sound like the views are postcard worthy) it's not the sort of place I'd chose to place a cache. Or enthusiastically look for one. Even a 'fun' Hallowe'en one that shows scant regard for the feelings of the families of the dead. :santa:

SP

October 31, 2005

I wonder how many of the caches involving graves have been placed with the approval of the families of the dead person, not many I would guess.

Personally, I would rather visit a location where something interesting has happened and look for a cache than find myself strolling down yet another country footpath with no intrinsic value or attraction and hunt for one after reading a 3 line cache description on gc.com

November 1, 2005

I certainly dont like the cache and I certainly would not do it but I dont have a problem with the cache being listed.

My personal problem is that I suspect the cache is celebrating the death penalty more than remembering the victims.

What I do have a problem with is double standards. When we tried in the UK to have meets and caches to remember and commiserate the tsunami, in an instant the USA end of the operations wanted to shut down such discussions and caches.

Caches and TBs, meets and discussions which draw attention to tragedies are, in my book, as valid as caches which draw attention to history or beauty spots. I dont have to agree with the 'point' of the cache - but if the cache is fun then I might do it anyway.

But I dont like these texas caches .......

November 2, 2005

The only real difference between the two, is that Burke & Hare done their crimes nearly 200 years ago, these murders were done just over 20 years ago. Perhaps you think it is wrong because it has happened in your lifetime, but if the cache was made in 100 years time, or it happened 100 years in the past, would you still object to it?

How about a cache at Auschwitz or maybe even a multi in Hiroshima-Nagasaki at the precise spot the bombs hit !?!

Morbid fascination might get me there but would these be classed as bad taste?

1.7k · November 2, 2005

How about a cache at Auschwitz or maybe even a multi in Hiroshima-Nagasaki at the precise spot the bombs hit !?!

Morbid fascination might get me there but would these be classed as bad taste?

I've done a virtual cache at the site in Iowa where Buddy Holly's plane crashed. There is a memorial there in the middle of the corn field.

Great cache, another good example of virtuals that work.

a.

1.7k · November 2, 2005

How about a cache at Auschwitz or maybe even a multi in Hiroshima-Nagasaki at the precise spot the bombs hit !?!

Morbid fascination might get me there but would these be classed as bad taste?

Personally I feel that both locations would make suitable virtual as long as they were presented thoughtfully. It would make sure that future generations would never forget the victims of both events. Something that a lot of the younger generation are not aware of or don't believe in.

Dave

November 2, 2005

How about a cache at Auschwitz or maybe even a multi in Hiroshima-Nagasaki at the precise spot the bombs hit !?!

Morbid fascination might get me there but would these be classed as bad taste?

Like this or this ?

November 2, 2005

Like this or this ?

Well I'll be damned. Thats my next two holidays booked!!!

November 2, 2005

Well I'll be damned. Thats my next two holidays booked!!!

MORAL

Never underestimate the geocaching community

in fact

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ full marks :blink:

3.8k · November 2, 2005

The only real difference between the two, is that Burke & Hare done their crimes nearly 200 years ago, these murders were done just over 20 years ago. Perhaps you think it is wrong because it has happened in your lifetime, but if the cache was made in 100 years time, or it happened 100 years in the past, would you still object to it?

How about a cache at Auschwitz or maybe even a multi in Hiroshima-Nagasaki at the precise spot the bombs hit !?!

Morbid fascination might get me there but would these be classed as bad taste?

I don't think these caches are bad taste. As long as they are presented correctly they are an education to what shouldn't happen again.

If mankind forgets it's own history then it is doomed to make the same mistakes again.

They said that the horrors of the holocaust would never happen again, people believed this. So what happened in the former Yugoslavia?

I believe that people forgot the history of only 45 years before, thinking that it was so brutal it could never happen again. How wrong the world was?

People, espescially the young should be reminded of the darker sides of human nature. Then with hope things like this may never happen again.

To sum up, geocaching is a good way to keep the memory of the people that have suffered, alive, as long as it is tastefull.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Haggis Hunter

November 2, 2005

No need to go to Texas:

The Mystery of Deadman's Hill

6.2k · November 2, 2005

No need to go to Texas:
The Mystery of Deadman's Hill

Done it - and I don't think it's in poor taste, mostly because of how the events are handled in the text. Bit of a grey area for me as the death featured is well within living memory, but I can see it's of historic 'value'.

Picking up on one of The Cryptiks' comments, like many cachers, I have used info from graves in multi's and puzzles, but wouldn't use anything recent. The newest memorial I've used is that of Roald Dahl, who died in 1990. I even avoided taking folks right to it with my cache, and only used it at all because he's famous and the cache is all about him and his work.

SP

November 3, 2005

I have used info from graves in multi's and puzzles, but wouldn't use anything recent. The newest memorial I've used is that of Roald Dahl, who died in 1990.

By that logic this also isn't recent, having occured in 1983.

I guess my point here is that press coverage of the events have been quoted heavily in the text of this cache page (try googling for "malibu grand prix killings" and you will see what I mean.)

Speaking as a parent, I wouldn't stop my child from watching the news, or reading a newspaper, so why would I complain about them finding the same details on a cache page?

If there were graphic images on the page I would maybe see the point people are trying to make, but to try and whip up a furore over a few lies of text containing "inches of blood" is a bit over the top, I don't think anyone is going to be traumatised by reading the page, and I also think the number of young children who browse geocaching.com looking for their next outing without parental supervision could be counted on the fingers of one hand...

Edited November 3, 2005 by Cryptik Souls Crew

November 4, 2005

Changed my mind, can't be bothered to post the whole thing. Just to point out that I find the text 'objectionable' - not whipping up a furore.

Edited November 4, 2005 by kbootb

November 7, 2005

A quote from a friend (Stocking Marionette) who happens to reside in your fair nation:

As a frequent British traveler, I often base my choice of overseas holiday destinations solely upon local geocaches and the morals which they uphold. Moreover, I also frequently run a keyword search on the term "killings" in order to notice all the caches I absolutely, positively do not want to know about, and never would have known about otherwise just because I happen to reside several thousand miles away from said "killings" caches and thus would not have been informed of through the usual local notification process.

This tactic is reminiscent of the Moral Majority and the PMRC (google them if you must) sorting through stacks and stacks of pornography and vile heavy metal recordings (often holding the magazines sideways or playing the albums over and over while tut-tutting and tsk-tsking) in order to weed out those that are particularly offensive...

Gotta love us Brits, always flying the flag of moral standards!

Edited November 7, 2005 by Chance Encounter

November 8, 2005

Am probably going to Texas next year to visit family and do some caching,
Not sure about doing or taking the kids to caches like this one.

Texas cache

umm, so don't do it.

Pretty simple solution.

8.4k · November 9, 2005

Perhaps it's the content on the cache description page that I find objectionable. I would prefer that the reader had to click to read it on a different page, rather than have all the sensationalist details laid bare for even the youngest person to find.

I lurk the UK forums because I work nights and you blokes are up. I might even be a closet Anglophile.

I enjoy how you write about your experiences and I especially like to read your cache pages and see all of the picture galleries. I almost never post though, because it's not my home. I don't feel I have the right context to comment in most cases.

The fact that I currently live just a couple miles from this cache aside, I just had to comment on this post.

I'm thousands of miles away and I can actually feel some of you wanting to pull the blinders over your eyes. Why?

If I had a kid, I'd take him to the cache. I'd let him read the page and I'd answer his questions. It's life. Plain and simple. Why shield a child from the world only to have them unprepared for reality later on? Reality is far stranger than fiction. (OK. I hafta admit that I'd keep my kid away from Chance Encounter, but not his cache.)

(BTW- My good buddy Chance got the location wrong. It happened somewhere else in Houston.)

To the OP, I'd like to know one thing. What's with the facination of looking over your neighbor's fence? If it was such a problem for folks here, I'm sure it would already be gone or had a face lift. Last time, it was a cache of my own being scoffed at in this forum. It has since grown to be one of the most watched and discussed caches around. :anitongue:

Seriously, point fingers in your own yard. ( Do we want caches like these ?) Go hide a cache in the yard of Dr. Harold Shipman and then complain about THAT. Ooops. There go those blinders again. :anitongue: :anibad:

Edited November 9, 2005 by Snoogans

2.5k · November 9, 2005

I haven't even bothered to follow the link to the cache in Texas, because I am unlikley to visit there in the near future, but I always enjoy a good old moral debate! Several UK caches ARE in fact at the site of murders, so the question posed at the head of this topic is entirely academic anyhow. There is the obvious virtual series around the sites of the Jack the Ripper Murders, there is the cache by the A6 where James Hanratty killed (or didn't kill?) his victim (looking at the old photos, I think this is pretty much at the very spot), and my favourite virtual, now archived, was at the site of a murder in the early 1800s. I am sure there are others. We in the UK like a bit of blood and gore as much as anybody, look at all the detective and hospital dramas on the TV! Who are the UKs best selling authors?

I agree with Snoogans comments about 'blinders' (called blinkers in the UK). Watch 20 minutes of TV gore and violence (and sex, shhh) and then complain about the cache in the USA. There is some stat out there about how many 'deaths' an average child has witnessed before they are 10 years old. Anybody who has taken a kid to the London Dungeon or to any castle with a dungeon knows just how enthusiatic they get when the prospect of turture chambers looms up.

The answer is, if a particular cache does not appeal to your taste, then simply do not do it. Apart from guarding your kids moral welfare you would also have to make value judgements about terrain and location that you would be happy to take them to, so why is this any different? You pays yer money, you makes yer choice! :anitongue:

1k · November 9, 2005

Am probably going to Texas next year to visit family and do some caching,
Not sure about doing or taking the kids to caches like this one.

Texas cache

Sounds like an awesome cache to me, almost worth the trip out there on its own.

LoL....the feelings mutual.

No seriously, its pretty grisly....its like there being a cache placed in Dunblane or Lockerbie for the obvious reasons, wouldnt be very nice.

1k · November 9, 2005

I haven't even bothered to follow the link to the cache in Texas, because I am unlikley to visit there in the near future, but I always enjoy a good old moral debate! Several UK caches ARE in fact at the site of murders, so the question posed at the head of this topic is entirely academic anyhow. There is the obvious virtual series around the sites of the Jack the Ripper Murders, there is the cache by the A6 where James Hanratty killed (or didn't kill?) his victim (looking at the old photos, I think this is pretty much at the very spot), and my favourite virtual, now archived, was at the site of a murder in the early 1800s. I am sure there are others. We in the UK like a bit of blood and gore as much as anybody, look at all the detective and hospital dramas on the TV! Who are the UKs best selling authors?

I agree with Snoogans comments about 'blinders' (called blinkers in the UK). Watch 20 minutes of TV gore and violence (and sex, shhh) and then complain about the cache in the USA. There is some stat out there about how many 'deaths' an average child has witnessed before they are 10 years old. Anybody who has taken a kid to the London Dungeon or to any castle with a dungeon knows just how enthusiatic they get when the prospect of turture chambers looms up.

The answer is, if a particular cache does not appeal to your taste, then simply do not do it. Apart from guarding your kids moral welfare you would also have to make value judgements about terrain and location that you would be happy to take them to, so why is this any different? You pays yer money, you makes yer choice!

Yeah you have a point Ali, also dont forget the one in Harrow....the virtual of a grave! its absolutly shocking.

The newest memorial I've used is that of Roald Dahl, who died in 1990.

1990.... U sure :anitongue: haha

Edited November 9, 2005 by Ben Pid

November 9, 2005

As my reply seems to be the one quoted I guess I'll have to reply (sigh - I'm bored with this)

I have no objections to caches at places of historic interest - including sites of murders, memorials etc. I don't see any logic in 'it happened a long time ago so that makes it OK'. I'd be quite happy to do such a cache and probably have.

I merely commented that I found the actual text objectionable in it's use of tabloid sensationalist language. I would have objected to the use of language if it were in a newspaper.

I do think that there are places where it is not appropriate to publish all the 'facts' about a case. Even more so, the language used is not a direct reporting of the facts - it is an attempt to hype up the report - 'imagine the fear as they waited....' not a factual report - sensationalising.

Part of my job is to ensure that the content that children are able to access in the classroom is appropriate. I believe children should not be able to see absolutely everything. Clearly most parents think likewise as there are so many complaints when something does slip though the filter.

November 9, 2005

I merely commented that I found the actual text objectionable in it's use of tabloid sensationalist language. I would have objected to the use of language if it were in a newspaper.

I do think that there are places where it is not appropriate to publish all the 'facts' about a case. Even more so, the language used is not a direct reporting of the facts - it is an attempt to hype up the report - 'imagine the fear as they waited....' not a factual report - sensationalising..

Actually, the background section of my cache description is taken word-for-word from an Associated Press wire report that appeared in publications around the world. Unlike the National Enquirer or the Daily Mirror, the AP is hardly known for sensationalism.

Malibu Grand Prix Killer...

November 9, 2005

I merely commented that I found the actual text objectionable in it's use of tabloid sensationalist language. I would have objected to the use of language if it were in a newspaper.

I do think that there are places where it is not appropriate to publish all the 'facts' about a case. Even more so, the language used is not a direct reporting of the facts - it is an attempt to hype up the report - 'imagine the fear as they waited....' not a factual report - sensationalising..

Actually, the background section of my cache description is taken word-for-word from an Associated Press wire report that appeared in publications around the world. Unlike the National Enquirer or the Daily Mirror, the AP is hardly known for sensationalism.

Malibu Grand Prix Killer...

Yep - and my comment wasn't a criticism of you, or the cache. I still feel free to criticise the style of that particular report, whatever the source.

I used to run live newspaper days for schools, using live newsfeeds from various agencies. The students would use these to put together their newspapers. They would then compare these with the stories that appeared in real papers and on radio and TV.

The quality of reports on the wires are very variable. The students could then spot which ones were taken verbatim by certain papers and radio stations, which papers used the stories but edited the content and which reports would be ignored by some and taken up by others.

AP, as with any agency, have a range of reporters with a range of talents and styles, and I just happen not to like that one.

No big deal - some people like Shakespeare - but not me. The English specialist I work with is shocked and horrified!

My opinion is thank goodness for the difference.

All I was doing was expressing MY opinion, saying how I reacted to the wording. Others reactions will be different. I am not saying it is intrinsically 'wrong'.

November 11, 2005

sounds like a good spot although somewhat grizzly there might just be a lesson to be learned here

6.2k · November 11, 2005

sounds like a good spot although somewhat grizzly there might just be a lesson to be learned here

That guns don't kill people, Americans kill people?

SP

8.4k · November 12, 2005

sounds like a good spot although somewhat grizzly there might just be a lesson to be learned here

That guns don't kill people, Americans kill people?

SP

:laughing:

Hmmmm, note to self: Next time I'm up in Crawford, put a bug in George Dubya's ear about a tiny island nation in the north Atlantic that could use some liberating. (pssst. geroge, there's lotsa oil in the north atlantic.)

6.2k · November 12, 2005

Thank the Lord for our independent nuclear deterrent! Actually you wouldn't need to invade. We already have fat children, deprived ethnic minorities and an idiot for a president. Welcome to Engerlandland, the 51st state :laughing:

SP

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